Discussion, Burning Slavery. Building, playing, insights, and so much more.

[MoxMonkey]

If they run 2 Tendrils I think taking Yawgmoth's Will would be the right play.

[forests failed you]

An interesting bit of tech:

I've been testing out a Gelectrode in my Burning Slaver sideboard as a possible option against the UW Fish Variants.  Since those decks tend to be removal light and based around one and two toughness creatures that ls.ittle sucker can be absolutely devestating.  If they don't have the Swords for him on the spot and you untap, you pretty much win the game on the spot.  Not to mention he draws fire away from your Welders, or rather the Welders become early bait for Swords.

I just thought I would share that with you guys.  At three mana he is a very reasonable card to cast in the match up, and he actually just wins the game when you untap against fish.  I'm not sure if it is worth devoting a slot to in a big metagame, but he is fantastic against fish.

[cryolyte]

@FFY: what would be the advantages of running gelectrode over Goblin Sharpshooter?

[ozimek]

@FFY: what would be the advantages of running gelectrode over Goblin Sharpshooter?

That should be rather obvious. For example you can go "ping - Brainstorm - Ping" to take out a Meddling Mage.

/Jan

[orgcandman]

Why wouldn't you use something like scalding salamander in that case? he'll nuke the whole board, mostly, you can drain into him, AND he doesn't get hit by reb.

Even more importantly, why not play grim lavamancer, and turn fetches / brainstorms / forces / drains into damage?

[PipOC]

Why wouldn't you use something like scalding salamander in that case? he'll nuke the whole board, mostly, you can drain into him, AND he doesn't get hit by reb.

Even more importantly, why not play grim lavamancer, and turn fetches / brainstorms / forces / drains into damage?

Salamander will only ever deal 1 damage to a creature, and alot of fish's creatures have 2 toughness.  Lavamancer requires a constant source of red mana, which fish's wastes can easily abate.

[Roxas]

The biggest problem I see with Gelectrode is that it dies to just about all of the hate fish decks bring in against CS - red blasts, Darkblasts, Needle, etc.  I suppose one can just say "if he's wasting those cards on Gelectrode, then they aren't being used on better cards in my deck," but I don't think it's an issue you can ignore.  Wouldn't Old Man of the Sea be better anyway?

[dicemanx]

The biggest problem I see with Gelectrode is that it dies to just about all of the hate fish decks bring in against CS - red blasts, Darkblasts, Needle, etc.  I suppose one can just say "if he's wasting those cards on Gelectrode, then they aren't being used on better cards in my deck," but I don't think it's an issue you can ignore.  Wouldn't Old Man of the Sea be better anyway?

Are Fish variants SBing those cards? FFY did mention UW Fish, which I suppose could run Pithing Needle in the SB, but I think a stronger strategy for Fish would be to load up on CotV and Null Rod and even Stifles. I think up to 4 Stifles should be a consideration again - that card used to be so debilitating at times in conjunction with Null Rod.

[orgcandman]

my point in writing those was the following:

- you draw your gelectrode. You must now tap 3 mana (or 2 if you have 1 drain mana floating). It also costs 2 different colored mana.

- You play your gelectrode. They respond with reb. At this point, you'll either commit 5 mana into this thing (by playing 2 more to drain) or you'll have lost a potential thirst opportunity.

- Your gelectrode sticks. It now can't beat, you won't use it as chump fodder, and so you have to wait a turn for it to be active.

- You pass through their turn, they somehow haven't drawn swords, or reb, or anything else they were running as removal. You're still tapped down at this point.

- you have miraculously gotten your gelectrode to resolve and stick through upkeep
  - We can agree that now, in order to make him effective, you have to either use non-mainphase spells (and thus mana) in your turn or still wait yet another turn. Agree? good
  - In the case of A) using instants in our own turn
    - We have now shut ourselves off from forcing our opponent (the fish player) to tap out, and thus keep his stifles / force spikes / rebs / other stuff offline. Normally, CS is good at building up a great hand for the end of turn "battle" over some resources, and either win or lose, come out next turn and have open season on playing your thirst / ancestral
    - We also are going to have to start committing resources into the gelectrode. It's more than just "Oh, simply play your spells." You're going to do at best 2 damage while playing spells optimally, and at worst, you're playing spells suboptimally to deal more damage with your gelectrode.
   - In the case of B) we wait
     - You've now given your opponent two opportunities to answer this. That seems like a terrible thing because if he does, you've lost a turn, potentially lost some counters over it, AND he wasn't even all that useful. Shock would have been better in the situation.
     - Ok, you finally make it through another turn and can pick off one of your opponents guys for the cost of a spell. That's great, except without having to even play a spell, you could have put 2 to the dome, at the cost of spells and resources you may not even use again.

My point was, sure gelectrode is some tech. But is it even needed? Especially against U/W fish where you already have massacre and pyroblast. At least salamander can get in there for 2, while blowing up guys, and lavamancer is just a beating. I didn't put them forth as "OMG, this tech is better" although in some cases I feel it is, I put that out there because I think that spending 3 mana mainphase is crazy when there are probably better options, and especially when we already have a 50/50 matchup against fish.

Hell, run reveka wizard savaant if you really want to...my point still stands: Is the committment worth the result?

[seer]

Gelectrode seems pretty good. My question is whether or not he is a better answer than Old Man?

Old Man fails in that he can't remove a meddling mage. However, he can take control of the mage and beat for two, which is always good. Most fish players leave their Swords in against slaver so that's going to be a problem with either answer.

One nice thing about old man is he lives through a pyroclasm. So you can board in Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake and Old Man.

[marcb]

Strictly speaking in terms of dealing with creatures, I think old man is better than gelectrode, however, I wonder if gelectrode might make it easier to win against UW fish with the tendrils plan, since now it would only take seven spells to deal 20.

[forests failed you]

Gelectrode against UW Fish.  I haven't seen RU Fish in quite some time, or at least a competative build that I don't already roll.

He is also a spicy win condition especially during a Yawgmoth's Will.  Plus, he is sauce in the mirror match.

[Gabethebabe]

He hate it that he is a creature. Difficult to find in the deck, can´t be welded in, summoning sickness.

His synergy with Will is irrelevant. You are resolving Will, i.e. you are winning.

[forests failed you]

He hate it that he is a creature. Difficult to find in the deck, can´t be welded in, summoning sickness.

His synergy with Will is irrelevant. You are resolving Will, i.e. you are winning.

As cute as this post is:

The point is:  If you untap with this guy in play against UW Fish you win.  End of story.  UW fish can be a difficult match up.  Is it worth a sideboard slot to play an "oops I win card?"  I don't know that is for you guys to figure out.

[marcb]

FFY,

I have always had a problem against UW Fish, but I also have a problem with IT. If I were sure that gelectrode was an "oops I win card", then I would definitely find room in the SB.  I was wondering if we could also reinstitute a talk about how the SB could be improved to take on IT. Have you tried Sphere or Resistance against IT? So far this has been the best in my testing with control slaver(thanks Sean10), but I was wondering what you thought or have tested in burning slaver, or maybe you don't think the SB needs to change with regards to this matchup. Thanks.

Marc

[cryolyte]

While I don't play burning slaver, my solution for IT has been to change the maindeck to include one Jester's cap and one tormod's crypt. Maindecking those two cards has made my IT matchup favorable. I will be testing leyline of the void, as it seems to have more of an impact to other graveyard-abusing decks in the meta (dragon/dawn of the dead/ichorid/gifts/togless tog/and even control slaver). Sphere of resistance used to be played in CS when TPS was pretty big, but honestly, it's the card I fear most when playing against stax. It makes it harder to sandbag a land and some moxen to cast that rack and ruin. Chalice for zero notwithstanding, of course.

[PucktheCat]

Plus, he is sauce in the mirror match.

Would you really side this in in the mirror?  3cc Sorceries are not very good against Drains (unless they are named Tinker or Yawg. Will), and this guy's effect is not that powerful anyway.  Old Man might be better in the mirror, because he survives Lava Dart/Darkblast, beats for 2, and steals their dude rather than killing it.

As others have pointed out, this thing is in direct competition with Old Man for the slot.  Only testing will tell the end result, but relevant considerations include:

1. the casting cost (Old Man is "cheaper" because it doesn't require red mana)
2. Old Man's 2/3 body
3. what happens when they're killed (they get their creatures back from Old Man, not from this)
4. relative merits as a win condition (this is probably better because it pings for 2 most turns, and more on big turns)
5. their ability to stop a rush (Old Man stops them faster probably, but lets them build up if the game stalls out)

Meh, I'm still inclined to think Old Man is better, but seems worth testing.

[forests failed you]

It was just a thought.  I've been testing him out and he has been fairly good.  As everybody knows well by now I like cards that do multiple things, rather than cards that are narrow and cost effective.  Gelectrode is a win condition and a revolving door of recurring removal.  I'm not sure I'd play with him at Rochester, but in certain metagames I would definately consider running the ball of energy.  My main concern was... Is it better than a lone copy of Fire Ice in the board....  My thought is maybe, I don't know yet.  But I wouldn't play Old Man;  My thought on the subject is I just want their idiots to die, I don't really care about stealing them.  Stealing a Meddling Mage doesn't make my TFKs get played.
---------------------------------

Against IT right now my plan is to board in Crypt, Duresses, Stifles and REBs.  I don't have much respect for IT as a deck;  I actually think it is a pile of garbage, a Grim Long with training wheels for newbs if you will, so I actually don't have much of a problem stomping IT into the ground unless they have a really good hand;  i.e.  a hand that looks like a Grim Long hand (Necro, quick Will, Desire).  That is really the only way for them to win.  Secondly, their deck is SLOW by combo standards.  They aren't really looking to kill you until turn three or later... Which means you have plenty of time to get your counterspells on line and start drawing cards on their end steps.  Also, turn three means that you are also at the threshold of doing broken things to them... only you can do it reactively after they try and you make the save.

Against a deck that doesn't play counterspells, Slaver can pretty easily get to a Yawg Will and/or a Slaver activate on turn four... Sometimes soonertr, but that is the exception to the rule.  Grim Long is the deck that actually makes me want to change my board around, that deck is a problem (as is Ichorid);  IT is a laughable foe;  its a slightly better TPS.

Just my opinion (which is the result of extensive testing of the match up), I don't think IT is a problem match up for Slaver, at least not in the way that the other combo decks are.

[Mantis]

I actually don't think the Gelectrode will be better than Old Man. Reason for this are cards like Lava Dart and Darkblast that get sided in against Welders, but hey they kill your Gelectrode too. Stealing a Meddling Mage with an Old Man might not make you play your TfK's, but it will win you the game as you now have a virtual Moat.

A question; would you side in your Gelectrode/Old Man in the CS mirror, to battle enemy Welders? And how about the Stax with Welders matchup?

[RezDawg]

I would have to agree with FFY, I want their men dead so I wouldnt play old man of the sea.  As meddling mage being a moat, they have several flying beats that mage cant block, one of which is rootwater thief which left uncheck might cost you the game.  In the mirror matchup welder is something I want to draw when Im ready to win which is when I have card advantage i.e. have drawn more cards or went broken.

[orgcandman]

I would have to agree with FFY, I want their men dead so I wouldnt play old man of the sea.  As meddling mage being a moat, they have several flying beats that mage cant block, one of which is rootwater thief which left uncheck might cost you the game.  In the mirror matchup welder is something I want to draw when Im ready to win which is when I have card advantage i.e. have drawn more cards or went broken.

You realize that you don't HAVE to keep holding on to the creature you just stole. Old man is the moat all by his lonesome (2/3, yaaa), and he CAN steal rootwater theif before combat. Or maybe you forgot that little nugget of tech

[Evenpence]

Just my opinion (which is the result of extensive testing of the match up), I don't think IT is a problem match up for Slaver, at least not in the way that the other combo decks are.

Hey Brian.  You've said that the only way for IT to beat you is if they have a hand that looks like a GrimLong hand.  I'd like to get your opinion on a few things.

1)  Does this mean that you're more afraid of Draw 7s that some IT builds run (like Endress's) including Timetwister and Tinker/Jar?
2)  How can IT legitimately beat you without having a GrimLong hand?
3)  What is your sideboarding strategy against IT particularly, and how heavily does one's sideboard contribute to the matchup with IT?

Thanks.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I think Darkblast is a good tool to fight Fish/random aggro. If it's countered, no big deal. It's a recursive threat. If you Dredge it, you're serving your own purpose of putting your heavy machinery into the yard while simultaneously answering their clock. Slaver plays the control role so well that you should rarely have a problem winning these matchups on the back of Darkblast and your countermagic.

Later,
Dave

[seer]

the biggest problem with cards like darkblast, is that you are likely fetching out one of your two swamps. This can be problematic if it gets wastelanded. You don't want to get your other swamp wastelanded and cut yourself off from easy will access.

[Gabethebabe]

I played this list yesterday in a 80-person tourney and went 5-1 (ID)-1 in the swiss, to beaten in the final by 5C Staff-stax and picking up a NM English Mana Drain.

Maindeck:
The usual list.

SB
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Deep Analysis
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Gelectrode

So I tried Gelectrode. I played two times against UW Fish and drew it one time. I played it, it smoked out two Swords (one I drained) before it lost summoning sickness. The Welder that followed and the Duplicant in the GY won me that game.

Solemn I didn´t like. Next time it will be Triskelion. The rest of the SB was good enough for me.

Cool: so now I have a 5th Drain. Anyone want to trade it for a Grim Tutor?

[forests failed you]

This is the sideboard I recently played at a local tournament:  With the normal Burning SLaver mainboard.


1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Gelectrode


1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

1 Viashino Heretic

1 Stifle

1 Echoing Ruin
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rolling Earthquake

1 pyrite spellbomb

 1 Rushing River

3 Duress
1 Phryxean Furnace

[sean1i0]

This is the sideboard I recently played at a local tournament:  With the normal Burning SLaver mainboard

Did it work out better than the sideboard you had before or will you be returning to the sideboard from SCG: Richmond?

[forests failed you]

I mean, I won the tournament?  So, I guess it was the right call.

I don't believe there is a such thing as "better."  One must play what the cards that they want to have available to them at any point in an event.  Did I miss Solem the one round where I played Stax?  Hell, yes.  But was I really happy when Gelectrode stole me an entire match games two and three?  Hell, yes.

Furnace was spicey against Stax and Dragon when I boarded it.  As well as against Slaver and combo.  I also really liked Rushing River.  It is definately in contention for a slot in every subsequent event I play in.

Just because Rich and I say something is good and have it in our boards doesn't mean it is right.  If you want to have a card in your board, because you want to be able to board it, go for it.  I play all kinds of bad cards that people give me shit about.  But they are there because I want them to be there.  I got tons of shit from my teamates in team constructed for always including one plagerize in my sideboard.  But when I draw it, it will often steal a game.  Play what you want to draw, that is my advice.

[Komatteru]

I got tons of shit from my teamates in team constructed for always including one plagerize in my sideboard.

Too bad Gabe Walls said he was playing around Plagerize in the finals regardless of whether or not he knew it was in your deck.  Stupid Zur's Weirding making you reveal your hand...

[sean1i0]

Just because Rich and I say something is good and have it in our boards doesn't mean it is right.  If you want to have a card in your board, because you want to be able to board it, go for it.

Well yes, I obviously agree with you.  The only reason I posed the question is because I couldn't tell how you did in the event.

I will say though that I'm impressed at the diversity of your sideboard and must congratulate you on how it did for you.