[Single Card Discussion] Infernal Tutor (Dissension)

[PopokiOfDeath]

Infernal Tutor 1B
Sorcery
Reveal a card in your hand. Search your library for a card with the same name as the revealed card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Hellbent - If you have no cards in your hand, search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

Well, I've primarially been a lurker here, for years, but now I'm actually playing vintage agaian, and decided to make an account finally, and I see this card has been confirmed on MTGSalvation from a magazine scan.  As a complete combo freak, this card screams to me to be played, but I can't decide how it would be best used.  In grimlong and the like it's more of a win-more card, as its primary function isn't that useful, and if you have no hand, eg you just used a LED, you should probably win anyway.  In Dragon it doesn't seem to be of much use, as there are few, if any, cards you want to see duplicates of, and you should be winning the game if you don't have a hand.  In a more control oriented deck, such as gifts, it also seems unnecesary, as the only viable targets would be things such as a drain or FoW, which are not things you should be tutoring for.  Although I'm not terribly familiar with workshops, it seems like it might be able to work in a workshop based deck, but none of the current decks seem like they would benefit from additional tutors tremendously.  So, my question is; can this card see play?  It's an extremely powerful effect for a very small mana cost, and seems like it should be used somehow, or will it simply be a card that never saw play?

(I hope this is enough content to justify starting a new thread, not entirely certain how much is required for a single card discussion.  If not feel free to delete this thread or LMK and I'll post more. Thanks)

[Mr. Nightmare]

I don't see it as a Vintage tutor so much, as it's strictly worse than many already used.  This will break combo open in Legacy.  With unrestricted LED, and many combo decks on the verge of being broken, this could be the Tutor they were looking for to push them over the hump.  Specifically, I'm thinking that Belcher and IGG can use this card to its full potential.

[orgcandman]

I can see this having some limited play in vintage in decks that are extremely redundant and rely on that redundancy. Decks like a potential u/b fish contender, CS (as a 1-of), and perhaps even some combo (doomsday and sx). It won't be gamebreakingly powerful.

Then there's legacy. People are anxious to throw this into a deck that abuses LED and other cards, but what needs to be remembered is that this can't just go grab will in legacy (since will isn't there).

Overall, it may see both vintage and legacy play. My bet is that it's better in vintage, as legacy can't take advantage of it like vintage can.

[Burntgerbil]

We are testing a vintage IGG deck down here and this may just be the thing. I could imagine...just getting rituals and  one of these tutors for yawgwin after you Gains. I think it would also help digging out a lot of redundant stuff like rituals, duresses and poxes. We still have a lot of testing before we can make a base deck decided on before we start throwing in new stuff..

[Harlequin]

It could be potentially cool.  Its hard to argue that it's better than say imperial seal.  But in some situations it might be.  For example: your opponent has a 5 card hand, and plays it going to 4 cards ... you let it resolve and they reveal a force of will and get a 2nd force of will.  Your holding a Force of your own.  How many counters does your opponent have?  two? one? Do you think they have 2 blue cards they are willing to pitch?  are they going to go off next turn?  This seems like a neat card, similar to gifts, in that sometimes it creates more questions than it answers... do you play your tinker with one backer knowning that your opponen has Force, Force, ??, ??, ???  If they do have 2 blue cards, what is that last card thats SO worth protecting?

All in all, It seems like a fairly cool mind-games type card ... but as far as tutors go its somewhere worse than Imperial Seal, and perhapse Grim tutor, but better than Diabolic Intent.

[warble]

I think it has potential in tendrils but not in any other deck.  Tendrils is the only deck with enough disruption and fast mana to actually empty it's hand, but there aren't really any slots open for conditional tutors.  It's an awesome late topdeck but tendrils doesn't want to go late...but yes if it does this makes tendrils happy.

I'll pinpoint the Weakness

Control wants cards in hand so it can't play this card.  Force of will can't protect this card, actually duress/defense grid is basically all you can protect with.  Combo control is popular like nobody's business.

And the Strengths

IF you haven't played yawgmoth's will AND you have a graveyard full of broken stuff AND your opponent doesn't have tormod's crypt AND your hand is empty AND it's late AND you are both topdecking it's amazing.

If you are topdecking and somehow haven't lost the game even though you're playing black you get one card for two mana like demonic tutor.

If you have only mana acceleration tutors and protection and were usually one mana shy sometimes it's the tutor you needed.

Methinks the strengths are...a tad bit conditional for me...  I imagine the demonic tutor went out with a lesbian and then had a sex change to stay with her but she left him anyway and this is what you get out of the new series.  Anyway with Vamp/Mystical/Demonic/Grim/Imperial why were we trying to get more tutors into the deck?

[Harlequin]

The deck that would want to house this card would have to be able to cast it while they still had a hand.  It doesn't say that you can ONLY cast it when you have an empty hand.  This way you can either get more rituals, more draw, more duresses ... and win out with the hand you have.  Post will resolution this card will shine as well, but I im sure no one thinks any deck needs 'help' winning after will has resolved... but it doesn't hurt to mention this strong point.

I think a Xcolor control deck would benefit the most from this type of card.  Random Quote of the Day, from Contact "Why build one, when you can build two for twice the price"  Same sort of idea, just grab that double swords, double force, double drain, double rack and ruin... etc.  Also good for after you've dumped your hand in a counterwar and your in topdeck mode.  it finds you will when you need it most.

Lastly, possible in 5color uba stax? or perhaps a "Goth-Uba-Stax."   Uba mask + this card sounds rather sassy.  And pre-Uba it gets you double Chalice, double wasteland, double welder - yes please!

[pyr0ma5ta]

The way the card is worded right now, you can reveal a Ritual, respond to the Tutor and cast the ritual, and tutor up a Ritual AND Yawgwill.  That seems...Unfair.  After the tutor resolves, you then cast ANOTHER ritual, and then Yawg?  Oh, and your hand's empty, so you can cast it AGAIN under Yawg for Tendrils.  Demonic Tutors #2-5 seem...busted.  I don't think this is one of of those cards that won't see play, I'm thinking it's more on the preemptive restriction level of power.

Edit: No, I'm a moron.  I thought I read "as an additional cost, reveal a card".  Turns out the play I described doesn't work.  But it's still a Tutor for a Ritual that can actually accelerate you if you have thresh and Cabal Rit, or it can just be a Tutor for Yawgwill/Bargain/Necro/Desire/Insert game ender here.

[Apprentice]

For me this card seems like an agressive tutor instead of a controllish or combo type. It reminds me of Gamble in a way that it inst great if you are tyring to combo out and protect stuff. So, what popular black deck is agressive, redundant and dumps its hand?

...

........

...............?????

Suicide Black! With Dark Confidant and the unbanning of Imperial Seal it looks like good Ol' Sui Black could make a comback. This is exactly what sui needs: a topdecking card. This together with Confidant seems silly good. So stop thinking about combo for a minute!! Maybe we could come up with a pre- tutor release Sui deck that implements these cards.

-Apprentice

[Cross]

I think this would help pros/bloom combo before sui black.

I actually think that this is a really powerful card, and is probably better than grim tutor, not that grim long is good.

Ritual chains are one of the best ways to up storm counts before a yawg's, and this tutor can definitely create those chains. This probably is not great for a combo deck like gifts, but has potential in a tps/yawgs style deck like IT.

[warble]

I actually think that this  is probably better than grim tutor, not that grim long is good.

After saying that you should have tried to back that statement up.  It's utterly untrue.  Grim tutor is amazing and makes tendrils about fifty billion times better.  The card isn't a hard tutor, it's a soft tutor, so it's far worse than grim tutor.  In addition, you'd rather draw every other card in your deck than this tutor in a tendrils deck.  That's the problem, you have enough juice and protection you just can't fit enough bombs in to be a resilient deck to hate.  It's not that grim tutor is bad...I can't believe you'd say that!

Of course you are talking about pros/bloom so I will forgive you because your knowledges seem a bit antiquated.  Soft tutor, dude, it's a soft tutor versus a hard tutor.  I really don't think it can be used to fetch something you already have...what exactly is that doing that duress or a better mana source wouldn't do again?

[Moxlotus]

This card would be the worst card ever for IT or Grimlong.  Those decks skate a fine line on losing to specific hate and having their cards work right only some of the time is begging to lose.

[That0neguy]

First of all say I play a lions eye diamond play this with a few cards in hand and sack the lions eye in response am can I get will, or will I get nothing since I can't reveal a card?

Also I think people are looking at this the wrong way.  You can't just throw this card into long the way we were able to throw grim tutor into deathlong.  We need to build the deck around the card.  What this means is not playing reactive cards like FOW or drain but more cheap proactive cards like cabal therapy and duress.  It whould be land light so this probably means using more a a belcher/SX type mana base with land grants and only 2-3 lands.  It should also probably use as many stupid quick horrible dark ritual effects as possible So this means that we should probably use rit cabal rit and possible even culling the weak (although this will probably force us to run too many bad cards so probably not worth it).  The deck should also be fairly redundant with a lot of 4 ofs in the event that we draw will.  So we could also probably use spoils of the vault (although SX has taught us that this card can really suck and cost games very quickly).  Nights whispers another option because it is a quick cheap card drawing engine.  The IGG idea is ok but IGG really sucks in control matchups if they have a FOW you basically need to grab a duress or cabal rit.

Heres a list I came up with bsaically off the top of my head.

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 infernal tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
1 Yawgs will
4 nights whisper
4 cabal therapy
4 duress
4 land grant
5 moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond (If this works with IT the way I think it does this should always betutored for first)
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus petal
1 necro potence
1 Yawgs bargain
4 chromatic sphere
4 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall
1 Bayou
1 Trpoical Island
1 Polluted delta
1 timetwister (Not sure about this slot its really more of a O hit button this if it gets clogged in your hand it could be bad)
2 tendrils of agony
2 chain of vapor

The main problems I see with this so far is that blue seems awful here because your never going to have blue mana.  and Eggs should maby be included over the whispers.  However shipsers seems like a much better topdeck.  I was also wondering about the correct number of since unlike SX you can reuse your maintutor and not worry about life loss you probably only need 1 or 2.

Edit:  It also seems a little bit mana lite (24 non chrome sphere sources) are there any non land things that im missing?  Would mana vault/crypt work here with so little colorless mana needed to cast stuff.

[Scott_Limoges]

Any card in vintage is worth looking at before dismissing; however, I'm going to make a bold claim saying this card, excluding the hellbent mechanic, is simply "win more".  Obviously, the most powerful cards in vintage are restricted and decks now abuse the critical mass of the restricted list to devote as many restricted cards as possible (in theory).  Vintage decks are also built around restricted cards via searching or tutoring for them.  Knowing approximately 40% of decks are mana, and 15% are restricted non-mana cards or singletons, more than half of the cards in a given deck are not searchable.  Finally, if your hand already contains the non-restricted necessary cards to win, this tutor will only "win more".  This tutor will not find a silver bullet, is conditional upon the cards you have in hand, and cannot find any of the best cards in vintage.

If this tutor can be used, the hellbent mechanic will need to be explored.

[NaNaKy3k]

This is the worst card ever, with grimlong you tutor up a lotus,yagw, desire, any restricted car, tutors fetchs cards that you need, if you already got the card, why you need another copy? also, if you search darkritual you dont add mana, so is worst card ever

Also, is circustancial, most of the times it will be a crap

While your input is welcome, please do take care to spellcheck your post before you click the button.
-Kowal[/color]

[orgcandman]

This is the worst card ever, with grimlong you tutor up a lotus,yagw, desire, any restricted car, tutors fetchs cards that you need, if you already got the card, why you need another copy? also, if you search darkritual you dont add mana, so is worst card ever

Also, is circustancial, most of the times it will be a crap

No need to be outraged at the thought of discussing a card. Its always a good thing(tm) to make sure we analyze all cards.

I'll address your questions (although it seems like you were trying to be rhetorical)

f you already [have] the card [in hand], why you need [to tutor up] another copy?

Well, actually, there are plenty of reasons. You can use this to fetch multiple rituals in order to ramp up on mana. You can use this to find multiple brainstorms / thirsts / drains / forces / welders / islands / etc.. All broken things, and good things to have in multiples. Therefore, this is at least SOME merit to finding multiple copies of cards, no?

lso, if you search [for Dark Ritual] you don't add mana, so [this] is [the] worst card ever.

I'm not 100% positive what you mean here, but I think your point is that you don't net any mana. That's true, you don't net mana off a ritual -> this -> ritual chain. However, you end up with 2 "free" spells, and BBB floating. Grim Tutor can only do that if you fetch out a lotus. Obviously, lotus is amazing. We're not debating that though.

And just because this card doesn't add 10,000 mana, or draw 10,000 cards doesn't make it the worst card. I believe you missed the following card: [card]one with nothing[/card]

Also, [this] is [circumstantial], [and] most of the time it will be a crap [card]

Well, I don't know how circumstantial it is. When you don't have a card in hand, it's demonic tutor. That's gassy. When you DO have another card in hand, it's just redundancy (which is also gassy). Again, comparing this to demonic is going to always make you come to the conclusion that this doesn't make the cut. However, it's imperative that you take your blinders off.

[Cross]

I actually think that this  is probably better than grim tutor, not that grim long is good.

After saying that you should have tried to back that statement up.  It's utterly untrue.  Grim tutor is amazing and makes tendrils about fifty billion times better.  The card isn't a hard tutor, it's a soft tutor, so it's far worse than grim tutor.  In addition, you'd rather draw every other card in your deck than this tutor in a tendrils deck.  That's the problem, you have enough juice and protection you just can't fit enough bombs in to be a resilient deck to hate.  It's not that grim tutor is bad...I can't believe you'd say that!

Of course you are talking about pros/bloom so I will forgive you because your knowledges seem a bit antiquated.  Soft tutor, dude, it's a soft tutor versus a hard tutor.  I really don't think it can be used to fetch something you already have...what exactly is that doing that duress or a better mana source wouldn't do again?

You obviously didn't get the sarcasm about prosbloom.

Next to lotus and yawg's, demonic is the most insane card in combo decks.

I have tested grim tutors and I don't like them because they cost three mana. The difference between two mana and three mana is miles, and it's often the difference between going off now and going off next turn. Any card that has the potential to tutor up yawgs, or create chains of storm count that you replace mana on is inherently powerful, and should be looked at as having potential in storm combo.

I haven't tested this card so I don't know if it is good or not, but it has similarites to existing cards that have proven themselves.

[TopSecret]

     Please take this example with a grain of salt, as it involves Kobolds:
When I played Kobold combo, the best part of the deck was the ability to play Diabolic Intent.
I would often be able to reach 5 - 6 mana on turn one by playing rituals, tutor for Will, and win.
The only problem was that I had to play creatures to support Diabolic Intent, leading to instability.

     However, with this new tutor, the only requirement is to empty your hand.
To me, this seems like a very easy requirement to meet if you play a lot of ritual effects.
A suicidal tendrils deck built to support this card would be really good at winning on turn one, if undisrupted.
This idea could easily prove too fragile, but I think it's at least worth a try.

[Whatever Works]

People are not looking nearly deep enough into this card. Obviously the card is great with Lions eye diamand, and will easily make belcher the best deck in legacy (its give a busted deck consistency, and a true recovery answer to FoW... Having no Yawgmoth's will in Legacy is irrelevent when you got 4 LED, and a billion mana when your tutoring for belcher).

This card is not good without the Helbent ability (which I think is a rather stupid concept but whatever)...

The first affect is clever, and primarily just a cute little affect that will just raise storm + fill graveyard with more dark rituals to up storm, and to create a larger yawgmoth's will if you have it in hand...

This tutor seems to be a natural fit into decks that go "all out" ... It seems to be a great recovery card... I am not sure how amazing it will be in storm sinse there already are so many tutors... However, in an extremely aggressive 2-land Belcher list that likely runs w/o red it could have some potential. I think it could be amazing in a super aggresive mono black dragon.

Its still to early to look to deep into this card because there probably will be several cards in the set that are going to be able to help shape this "hellbent" ability similar to supporting cards that made affinity good. Though I doubt they will be nearly as strong.

Ill Gotton Gains also should be a good fit for this tutor.

Kyle L

[Tin_Mox5831]

Obviously, it's a bit too early to tell whether Infernal Tutor will be a powerful addition to Vintage. After all, Gifts Ungiven decks didn't start T8ing overnight, they mere meticulously tuned and playtested. The same idea applies to Dark Confidant decks, Dredge-based decks, etc. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I however, personally like the card a lot. It seems to be a nice addition to Storm Combo decks, primarily more aggressive builds that forego all control aspects (ala Meandeck Tendrils). As already mentioned, it is good at chaining mana accelerants and has nice synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond. Also already mentioned is the synergy this card has once replayed with Yawgmoth's Will. In my opinion, the decks that will make best use of this card will be Storm Combo decks running a full 4 Cabal Rituals in addition to the standard issue Dark Rituals. The use of a second four-of accelerant with a particularly explosive element (i.e. Cabals with Threshold) may make the deck redundant enough to maximize this card's positive qualities while minimizing it's downsides.

I just edited this post to include a list that I built and played basically all night last night. (Sleep just isn't appealing when you're constantly comboing out Turn One!) It was playing as consistently fast as anything I've ever played or faster, even Meandeck Tendrils.

The Answer:

Black Lotus x 1
Mana Crypt x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Sol Ring x 1
Lotus Petal x 1
Lion's Eye Diamond x 1
Chrome Mox x 1
Mox Jet x 1
Mox Sapphire x 1
Mox Ruby x 1
Mox Emerald x 1
Mox Pearl x 1
Elvish Spirit Guide x 4
Bayou x 2
Land Grant x 4
Dark Ritual x 4
Cabal Ritual x 4
Chromatic Sphere x 4
Helm Of Awakening x 4
Night's Whisper x 4
Duress x 4
Tendrils Of Agony x 2
Yawgmoth's Will x 1
Grim Tutor x 2
Infernal Tutor x 4
Necropotence x 1
Imperial Seal x 1
Vampiric Tutor x 1
Demonic Tutor x 1
Memory Jar x 1

As I said, I played this list on MWS for hours on end last night, and it is, without a doubt, the most absurd combo deck I've ever piloted. I was comboing out on Turn 1 so consistently that I literally had chills at one point! The deck is mono-black eliminating the few mana problems that I've occasionally had with Meandeck Tendrils, plus maxing out on Cabal Rituals, giving the deck more acceleration than most Tendrils builds. As far as Infernal Tutor goes, it was the stone nuts all night long with only a handful of exceptions. Plus, after a Yawgmoth's Will, having 2-3 Demonics in my yard is fricking sweet!

The Helms were added in alongside Night's Whisper in an effort to strengthen the deck's draw power without dipping into Blue. And boy did it work! In terms of odd card choices, the only thing that really stands out is the Memory Jar. For a long time now, I have referred to Memory Jar in our local playgroup as Black's Draw-7. It's just so easy to hardcast it in this deck chock full of Rituals and Helms and it pays amazing dividends for this deck. The absolute Coup De Grace is the fact that Duress hardly ever is "in the way" making for a deck that doesn't nessecarily roll to a player with Force. (Unlike MD Tendrils) Put this together and give it some test runs, I think you'll like what you see.

Later,
Dave

[cryolyte]

I'm tired so forgive me if this sounds retarded, but wouldn't this be a decent card for sideboard use as a burning wish target? I mean, if it's late game and you're in topdeck mode you could wish for this tutor, search up will, and end the game. That's a lot of if's, but it could prove useful in that capacity.

[Tin_Mox5831]

That's certainly a possible use for this card. The only dilemma is that most of the decks that really want to make that play have either cut or never used Burning Wish. But, yeah, you have a very good point: If the deck can facilitate that play, I can see it as a viable option.

Later,
Dave

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'd run at least one copy of Oxidize maindeck because tutoring into it to kill off a random turn 1 Null Rod is strong.  Maybe an Unmask or two as well as they fit in with the theme of minimizing your hand size while generating storm.

[Whatever Works]

Are we 100% sure this tutor is really going to be printed??? It screams MISTAKE all over it... Its not nearly on the level of minds desire for type 1. HOWEVER, It is definetly very close when your talking about legacy. A format that WoTC actually does care a little bit about.

Also, WoTC has been very good recently about not printing cards like this. They havent had to restrict a newly printed card since Trinisphere/Chrome Mox which is very impressive since both could have been debatable on restriction value...

I dont think this card needs restriction at all... I am just shocked wizards would print a card with a demonic tutor built in affect regardless of how narrow it would outwardly appear.

Kyle L.

[CCClark]

It kind of says, "play me in Pox" doesn't it?  lmao

I don't see too many uses other than tutoring for an extra ritual, though maybe this set will give us some cards making the empty hand deck make a comeback ala cursed scroll.  (doubtful, but you never know.)

[AmbivalentDuck]

The card is confirmed through a French language magazine scan.  As far as it being potentially broken, I will be *thoroughly* dissappointed if we can't get this pre-restricted. 

[warble]

Although it is potentially broken in other formats, in vintage we already have enough tutors.  We just need more protection, so I'd prefer another duress-type card that costs 1 mana to this.  Protect, then win.  Suicide is part of type 1, it's called 2 land belcher, and it folds to force of will 99 times out of 100.  This doesn't address any of the problems that combo has going off, because it relies on you having black mana available, at which point you probably were capable of duressing, and it doesn't produce mana like dark ritual.  Vintage, not broken, other formats, really powerful because you don't need to win nearly as fast.

[Komatteru]

Although it is potentially broken in other formats, in vintage we already have enough tutors.  We just need more protection, so I'd prefer another duress-type card that costs 1 mana to this.  Protect, then win.  Suicide is part of type 1, it's called 2 land belcher, and it folds to force of will 99 times out of 100.  This doesn't address any of the problems that combo has going off, because it relies on you having black mana available, at which point you probably were capable of duressing, and it doesn't produce mana like dark ritual.  Vintage, not broken, other formats, really powerful because you don't need to win nearly as fast.

I'd disagree that Belcher folds to FoW.

[AmbivalentDuck]

All I can say is try Tin Mox's build.  Seriously.  It's far from optimal and playtesting it on MWS I have no reason to disagree with his results.  That is, turn 1 kills are common.  If you pull the inefficiencies from his deck, I believe 2-4 Unmask can be painlessly added.  This would make the combo brokenly consistent and difficult to disrupt.

Preliminary testing with the Meandeck Tendrils skeleton shows promise, too.  

[warble]

I'd disagree that Belcher folds to FoW.

Well, that would be like saying combo beats control.  I believe that argument is about as old as the game itself.  How about belcher folds to double FoW.  That is most certainly true.

With regard to helm with duress, it's always a possibility, but when you draw helm as a topdeck it usually costs you the game, would you agree?  It's a question of how much you can fit in the deck, the helms cost you force of will so your protection is gone.  I'd rather have force of will and brainstorm instead of helm and infernal tutor