[Single Card Discussion] New Fish Toy-Azorius Guildmage

[pyr0ma5ta]

From MtgSalvation, confirmed from a magazine, here comes the Dissension leaked cards.

Azorius Guildmage
   {wu}{wu}
Creature - Vedalken Wizard    U
({UW} can be paid with either or )
2{W}: Tap target creature.
2{U}: Counter target activated ability.
2/2

Surely this will see play?  It's blue, it's 2/2, it taps DSC/Akroma/Razia, and it has stifle on a stick.  Discuss.  Surely UW fish will love to drop the Stormscape Apprentices and play yet another bear?

[warble]

Any fish creature that is immune to lava dart and darkblast is good in my book.  I'll try playing it as a 3 of, but being pitchable to FOW I may just go to 4.  It takes out fetchlands and DsC.  Amazing.  Just amazing.

[Moxlotus]

3 mana to tap a guy is a lot.  Stormscape is great because it is a 1 drop for ninja and only takes 1 mana to activate.  This thing competes with ninja dropping, Mages, Rod and Standstill to be cast and his ability is expensive.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Amazing...

Seeing as how nobody plays oath anymore, the only fatty you really need to worry about is DSC (and occasionally Titan). 3 mana to hold him down while swinging for 2 isn't horrible. It's also a 2/2 for 2, which is like, big for a fish creature. I can see his stifle ability being randomly amazing too...

Memory Jar
Goblin Welder (though, unrealistic, 6 mana to hold him down entirely)
Wastelands
Strip Mine
Bazaar activation
Fetch Lands
Slaver activation

Seeing as how Good fish decks don't run ninja anymore, I'd say this replaces stormscape apprentice pretty well.

[pyr0ma5ta]

3 mana to tap a guy is a lot.  Stormscape is great because it is a 1 drop for ninja and only takes 1 mana to activate.  This thing competes with ninja dropping, Mages, Rod and Standstill to be cast and his ability is expensive.

Countering fetchlands, Wastelands, Bazaar, Welder, etc every turn seems ok if you're beating down. 

[Rapalaman1]

Look at it as Stifle on a stick that does 2 damamge a turn, pretty sweet.

[Cross]

It's not a stifle though, stopping triggered abilities is the other insane side of stifle that this doesn't have.

This guy isn't awful, but I've got to agree that tapping a creature for 3 is a lot, even like master decoy does it better.

However this guy has a bunch of potential, I'm just not sure he's what ti takes to get fish out of the hole.

Edit:

Another insane type 4 card from dissension.

[Rapalaman1]

However this guy has a bunch of potential, I'm just not sure he's what ti takes to get fish out of the hole.

If cards like Kataki dont have enough to get fish out of the "hole" then nothing does. This guy is sweet, but I doubt he'll see play also because of his 2cc conflicting with other better turn 2 drops (already pointed out by MoxLotus). But he could be good if the game goes long enough to make good use of his expensive abilities

[Milton]

I agree with some of the above sentiment.  I don't see him as a fish creature.  Fish is very mana intensive during the attack phase, what with Mishra's and stuff. 

Still, this is a great creature.  A EBA type deck would make very good use of this lil' guy.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I agree with some of the above sentiment.  I don't see him as a fish creature.  Fish is very mana intensive during the attack phase, what with Mishra's and stuff. 

Still, this is a great creature.  A EBA type deck would make very good use of this lil' guy.

Factories and Ninjas don't even see play anymore in Fish.  The 2 slot is rather full, yes, what with Meddling Mage, True Believer, and such, but I think this guy has just better utility than True Believer. 

[sean1i0]

Personally, I think that this card is just way too mana intensive for fish decks, at least as we envision them today.  Unless all you want is a 2/2, which fish has in spades, you have to spend 2{u/w}{u/w}{u/w} to do anything truly useful.

And, yes, I wholeheartedly agree that his ability does not even begin to approach stifle's, since some of the most important abilities are triggered, although if the ability actually doesn't have the non-mana activated ability restriction that so many cards today have, then it could at least be fun to fizzle a black lotus with this card from time to time.   

[Metman]

It seems like it has potential but in the end it is too expensive to play.  The psuedo Stifle effect is kinda cool but it doesn't stop Storm or Triskelion right?  Both are a hassel for Fish besides the two slot is far too crowded (and for good reason) to play in fish.  Mage, Kataki, and Stormscape are all better IMO.

[Marco]

I think this is pretty nifty. And I like the looks of Hussar of the Court too...

[Disburden]

It seems like it has potential but in the end it is too expensive to play.  The psuedo Stifle effect is kinda cool but it doesn't stop Storm or Triskelion right?  Both are a hassel for Fish besides the two slot is far too crowded (and for good reason) to play in fish.  Mage, Kataki, and Stormscape are all better IMO.

Removing a counter to do one damage counts as being an activation cost.

[Moxlotus]

It seems like it has potential but in the end it is too expensive to play.  The psuedo Stifle effect is kinda cool but it doesn't stop Storm or Triskelion right?  Both are a hassel for Fish besides the two slot is far too crowded (and for good reason) to play in fish.  Mage, Kataki, and Stormscape are all better IMO.

Removing a counter to do one damage counts as being an activation cost.

He was talking about the "comes into play with 3 counters" part of Trike.

[Imsomniac101]

It seems like it has potential but in the end it is too expensive to play.  The psuedo Stifle effect is kinda cool but it doesn't stop Storm or Triskelion right?  Both are a hassel for Fish besides the two slot is far too crowded (and for good reason) to play in fish.  Mage, Kataki, and Stormscape are all better IMO.

Removing a counter to do one damage counts as being an activation cost.

He was talking about the "comes into play with 3 counters" part of Trike.

Even that can't be Stifled.

[Harlequin]

Maybe...... as a one or two of.
You would definiately want to cut your manlands for more colored mana. 

Also maybe in vial fish. (with full moxen?) this way you could drop him in response to a critical weld or a wasteland and activate him immediately.  Also he's a wizard so voidmage is happier.  Although you would need to sit on alot of mana.  and you already have plenty of vial tricks.

[kombat]

It's not a stifle though, stopping triggered abilities is the other insane side of stifle that this doesn't have.

Stopping triggered abilities is just a nice little bonus of Stifle.  In practice, there are very few times with this aspect of the spell is useful.  I mean, sure, it's nice to be able to Stifle an Oath activation, but why bother?  They'll just do it again next turn.  Why not let them Oath the creature out, then plow it, remove it from the game, tap it, bounce it, or otherwise deal with it in a more lasting manner?  The only time I can think of where Stifling a "triggered" ability might be useful is stifling the Mana Drain's triggered abiilty and denying them the mana.

So in practice, I think this guy's ability is 95% as useful as Stifle.

[warble]

So in practice, I think this guy's ability is 95% as useful as Stifle.

No, stifle costs 1 mana and is instant and counters storm.  This card is . . . like the flip side . . . probably 5% as useful as stifle.  You gots it backwards dude.

However, fish loves 2/2 creatures.  It means the sideboard that was effective against welder isn't effective against your deck, and we know sideboards typically have hosers for goblin welder.  Goblin welder is like . . . the little bastard we like to kill in type 1.  I think I've killed hundreds of 'em in tournaments.  That would be the key difference between this little booger and kataki, kataki dies easier to trisk and dart and darkblast.

I really don't think this guy is competing with other two drops, I think of him more as a pitch early to FoW/MisD and mid-game as a 2/2 beater that performs mana denial and neutralizes DsC (and can get beats in through blockers).  Running ninja is often more mana intensive than a 2 drop, so it is probably not good synergy to run big 2/2's other than meddling mage in a deck running ninja.  You just prefer to ninja out the weiners and replay instead of performing some "heavy lifting" with them as well.  I accept the dissynergy with ninja but I wasn't running ninja in fish anyway.  Too many times I would rather have had cheaper, yet more curious, creatures.

[Harlequin]

It's not a stifle though, stopping triggered abilities is the other insane side of stifle that this doesn't have.

Stopping triggered abilities is just a nice little bonus of Stifle.  In practice, there are very few times with this aspect of the spell is useful.  I mean, sure, it's nice to be able to Stifle an Oath activation, but why bother?  They'll just do it again next turn.  Why not let them Oath the creature out, then plow it, remove it from the game, tap it, bounce it, or otherwise deal with it in a more lasting manner?  The only time I can think of where Stifling a "triggered" ability might be useful is stifling the Mana Drain's triggered abiilty and denying them the mana.

So in practice, I think this guy's ability is 95% as useful as Stifle.

Ok, lets back this train up.  You cannot stifle the "MANA" ability of Drain, nice try though.

Also by the stifle->oath logic... [sarcasm] why run timewalk, I mean takeing another turn clearly is no good because your opponent is still going to be able to take another turn after your extra turn.  Why bother.  [/sarcasm] Stifle is timewalk against oath.

Actually stifle is timewalk against stax too.  Stiffleing a Smokestack or tangle wire during my upkeep to play a sacred ground works rather well. 

Also state above, Storm is a trigger. 

Thats 3 major triggers right there.  Bind, and Interdict never see play ... this is just an overcosted version of that.

[TimeWizzle]

Stifling a smoketack trigger is pretty good I hear.  Also, you can't stifle Mana Drain's mana ability because, well, it is a mana ability.
And while I agree that stifling an oath trigger is not a permanent solution to the problem, it does function as a timewalk in terms of the damage clock.  

Edit: Looks like Harlequin and I are on the same page

[wardo]

It's not a stifle though, stopping triggered abilities is the other insane side of stifle that this doesn't have.

Stopping triggered abilities is just a nice little bonus of Stifle.  In practice, there are very few times with this aspect of the spell is useful.  I mean, sure, it's nice to be able to Stifle an Oath activation, but why bother?  They'll just do it again next turn.  Why not let them Oath the creature out, then plow it, remove it from the game, tap it, bounce it, or otherwise deal with it in a more lasting manner?  The only time I can think of where Stifling a "triggered" ability might be useful is stifling the Mana Drain's triggered abiilty and denying them the mana.

So in practice, I think this guy's ability is 95% as useful as Stifle.

Ok, lets back this train up.  You cannot stifle the "MANA" ability of Drain, nice try though.

Also by the stifle->oath logic... [sarcasm] why run timewalk, I mean takeing another turn clearly is no good because your opponent is still going to be able to take another turn after your extra turn.  Why bother.  [/sarcasm] Stifle is timewalk against oath.

Actually stifle is timewalk against stax too.  Stiffleing a Smokestack or tangle wire during my upkeep to play a sacred ground works rather well. 

Also state above, Storm is a trigger. 

Thats 3 major triggers right there.  Bind, and Interdict never see play ... this is just an overcosted version of that.

Nice little sarcasms; but you are wrong, you CAN Stifle Mana Drain's ability (a mana ability is either written on the form tap: add mana like lands or something that gives you more mana off taping lands). For example, Heartbeat of Spring is a mana ability but Mana Drain isn't.

On another hand, this guildmage sucks.

[Harlequin]

Nice little sarcasms; but you are wrong, you CAN Stifle Mana Drain's ability (a mana ability is either written on the form tap: add mana like lands or something that gives you more mana off taping lands). For example, Heartbeat of Spring is a mana ability but Mana Drain isn't.

You most certainly cannot stifle mana drain's mana.  I'm not sure if my use of the verbage "Mana ability" is correct but I am 99.9% sure that you cannot stifle mana drain's mana.
You also cannot stifle "come into play" abilites. This includes, but is not limited to, cards like: Meddling mage, Pithing Needle, Triskellion, and Phyrexian Dreadnaught.  the verbage "As ~this~ Comes into play" and "~This~ Comes into play with" is technically a replacement effect as I understand it (at least functions like a replacement effect).

Abilites that add mana in any way are mana abilites.  Even abilies that do more than add mana are mana abilies and thus cannot be stifled or pithing needled.  This includes, but is not limited to, abilies of cards like: Metal Worker, and Darkwater Egg, and Chromatic Sphere.

Spells that add mana dirrectly, like Dark Ritual, are not a mana abilities (because its a spell not an ability).  Aslo abilities that 'kinda' add mana are not mana abilites, like Candlabra of Twanos, Dragon Arch, and AEther Vile can infact be stifled.

[kirdape3]

There's a BB2 sorcery that makes this guy (and Fish in general) almost unplayable.  Massacre just kills this guy like everything else.  Le frown.

[Moxlotus]

Ask the Judge is tech:

Q: Can you Stifle the mana part of Mana Drain?

A: Yes you can stifle the delayed triggered ability created by Mana Drain. If you do then the controller of the Mana Drain will not get any mana from this ability.
 

I was wrong-you cannot Stifle the Triskelion counters because it does not say "when Triskelion comes into play..."

[Jacob Orlove]

Abilites that add mana in any way are mana abilites. 

False. Triggered abilities that add mana to your pool are only mana abilities if they trigger off another mana ability. For example, Heartbeat of Spring and Wild Growth ARE mana abilities, because they trigger off tapping a land for mana. Eladamri's Vineyard and Mana Drain are NOT mana abilities, because they trigger off a step or phase.

edit: removed the part of the quote that I'm not replying to.

[Harlequin]

Edit: edited response to Orlove's edit

So you can infact stifle mana drain mana?  Do judges know this? I have definately seen this called incorrectly at tournments if you can infact stifle mana drain.

[Pitlord]

You can stifle anything that involves soemthing triggering at a certain time, indicated by words such as during, at the beginning of, and when.

As for the guildmage himself, he seems playable in certain builds of fish, but shouldn't become a universal creature. If you are playing vial, or are in an oath heavy meta, he would probably be worth the mana. If you play null rod or see more drains that oath, he probably isn't a great choice for fish. As with almost everything in fish, the whole deck revolves around the meta game.

[Whatever Works]

This is going to be the most overhyped/overrated card sinse isocron scepter... IT IS NOT A STIFLE on a stick at all!!! It doesnt stop triggered abilities like smokestack/tendrils/etc...

It costs 3 Mana to use! This is ALOT of mana that frankly fish doesnt have unless it wants to run vial, and then the deck really isnt even fish... Its WTF... Then the question becomes is it any better then mongrel? And frankly the answer is no.

Kyle L.

[Gabethebabe]

To confirm: You can Stifle the triggered ability of mana drain, but this creature can not "stifle" Drain´s ability

406.1. A mana ability is either
(a) an activated ability that could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves or
(b) a triggered ability that triggers from a mana ability and could produce additional mana.
A mana ability can generate other effects at the same time it produces mana.

Mana Drain´s ability is not (a), since it is triggered. And it is not (b) since its not triggered from another mana ability (like e.g. Wild Growth)