Oath deck: I need help!

[aos1985]

I started to play magic 9 months ago so i'm not a really good player and i'm still learning how to play. The thing is that I would like to play an oath deck and I've been thinking a lot how to build
a good deck with 5 proxys (I dont have money to buy power9 cards).
This  is the deck:

CREATURES (2)
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 razia, boros archangel

SPELLS (39)
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 lotus petal
4 oath
1 crop rotation
1 gaea's blessing
1 oxidize
4 force of will
4 mana leak
4 brainstorm
1 misdisrrection
2 impulse
1 rushing river/ echoing truth
1 ancestral recall
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
3 duress
1 balance
1 swords to plowshares
2 null rod

LANDS (19)
4 forbidden orchard
3 city of brass
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
4 polluted delta
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island
1 tundra

SIDEBOARD
3 oxidize
1 energy flux
3 stiffle
3 red elemental blast
2 pithing needle
1 platinum angel
2 triskelion

I accept all kind of ideas to make this deck much better. Thank you everybody and sorry if I don't speak good english (I'm a spanish player).

[Gekoratel]

When you’re building an Oath deck I think that it is very important to know what role you want to play.  The two main choices are controlish (ICBM Oath) or beatdown (GWS Oath).  It looks like this deck is leaning towards GWS Oath but has some elements of a more controlish deck.  I would personally cut the random 1 of's such as Oxidize, Balance, STP and try to stream line the deck to 3 colors (U/B/G).  This will make your mana-base a little more consistent with some basics in the deck.  I would increase your Impulse count to 4 because it is very important to get Oath quickly.  I would also think about adding a 4th Wasteland and Duress.  I also do not believe that non-combo builds of Oath can abuse Yawgmoth's Will, especially in your deck since your missing power doing anything relevant after casting will is pretty tough.  I'm also unsure if 1 of the moxes should become Time Walk because that is really good allowing killing a turn earlier.

Here's the newest GWS list that I would work from, obviously you'll need to remove some cards due to proxy count.

GWS Oath
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
4 Force Of Will
4 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Vampiric Tutor
 
Legendary Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
2 City Of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

If you have any questions feel free to ask and I'll see what I can do.

[Jacob Orlove]

Welcome to TMD! Our forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0

In particular, you'll want to read rule #4.

Moved to Vintage Improvement.

[scutakicker]

For the maindeck:
1 oxidize: This is really more of a sideboard card to deal with Stax or random boarded artifacts but probably isn't worth a spot in the main.
2 impulse: If you are running more of the GWS style Oath I would suggest at least 3, probably a full set. It digs deep and quick, allowing you to find an early Oath.
1 yawgmoth's will: I've seen this tried but its not really helpful. You can only really use it after you've Oathed and by then you should be winning. Keep Gaea's Blessing instead so you can cast a tutor during your upkeep, draw and play Timewalk and win.
1 balance, 1 swords to plowshares: Drop the White. If you're going to support a fourth color, stick with Red (Red Elemental Blast, possibly Rack and Ruin, Pyroclasm)
1 bayou, 1 volcanic island, 1 tundra: While Oath takes Green, the base of the deck is really Blue (draw and counters). Stick with Underground Sea and Tropical Island. Having at least one basic island is also incredibly helpful.

For the Sideboard
1 platinum angel: Generally, if you can Oath a creature into play you are winning. When this isn't the case its because they are preventing your creature from doing damage (Stormscape Apprentice, Maze of Ith) or are removing it from the game (Swords to Plowshares, Duplicant). Platinum Angel doesn't avoid any of these drawbacks and is also hit by artifact removal. Pristine or Iridescent angel are the two best backup options.
2 triskelion: For a while this was the favored sideboard plan for many people--Trike shoots Welders, Fish dudes and kills off Orchard tokens of your own in a mirror match. Personally I never liked it. For Welders/Fish I like Darkblast/Pyroclasm. Darkblast/Life from the Loam is what I'm currently using in the mirror.

Hope that helps

[M.Solymossy]

ICBM oath (take it from an ICBMer) is NOT for low/no proxy enviroments, unless you own Infy cards.  The deck is expensive.

[frontier]

I`m an old MTG player, but I`m quite a new to vintage. I choose to play Oath, so  I have made analysis of various decklists.

My suggestions (I like GWS Oath, suggestions are for the decklist that Gekoratel posted):
As long as you play in 5 proxy tournament and there are power nine (time twister is not used in oath, so power eight):
made a proxy of 1 lotus and 3 moxen (emerald, jet and sapphire), instead of two remaining moxen put chrome mox/mox diamond/ lotus petal
instead of ancestral recall and time walk and mystical tutor (somehow I dislike this card in Oath), put one proxy of these (in my opinion, ancestral recall) and two lat-nam legacy or lim-dul's vault.

[Moxlotus]

No--you must have Walk and Ancestral in the deck.  Those cards are more essential than the moxen.  Walk is the most common tutor target and Ancestral is, well, Ancestral.  If you have no P9 and can proxy 5 cards it should be Walk, Ancestral, Lotus, Sapphire, Jet.

[Harlequin]

No--you must have Walk and Ancestral in the deck.  Those cards are more essential than the moxen.  Walk is the most common tutor target and Ancestral is, well, Ancestral.  If you have no P9 and can proxy 5 cards it should be Walk, Ancestral, Lotus, Sapphire, Jet.

Agreed.  Timewalk is so criticaly in Oath.  Perhaps more critical in oath than any other deck.  If I was only allowed ONE proxy it would timewalk.

[Illuvatar Reborn]

No--you must have Walk and Ancestral in the deck.  Those cards are more essential than the moxen.  Walk is the most common tutor target and Ancestral is, well, Ancestral.  If you have no P9 and can proxy 5 cards it should be Walk, Ancestral, Lotus, Sapphire, Jet.

Agreed.  Timewalk is so criticaly in Oath.  Perhaps more critical in oath than any other deck.  If I was only allowed ONE proxy it would timewalk.

i, personally dont believe so. i think that gifts or some combo decks could abuse it more so than oath. in oath, you get to attack again. in combo you get to set up your win condition, then next turn win. in gifts, dc, timewalk, timewalk is imo, better than the oath timewalk.

[Pitlord]

The oath timewalk with an orchard out is basically gg. It lets you win now, instead of waiting the extra turn for them to find an answer.

Time walk deals with the biggesr problem with oath decks. They need 2-3 turns to actually win after they "win". This is far too long in some cases, especially against combo decks, gifts, or slaver, which can randomly pull themselves out of some deep holes. Time walk lets you resolve it, oath up another creature, and smash with two hasty wenches. They get no outs, they get no more topdecks, you just win.

For oath: Time walk > moxes

[frontier]

I play in zero proxy tournaments, what are your thoughts about changing p9 (p8 in this case) to some budget cards?

[thatguynextdoor]

If you are playing in 0 proxy tournaments...I would then suggest sticking with the traditional UG oath build, just play Razia and Akroma instead of the Weaver+Hydra+SoTN etc. I must stress my shakyness about playing ICBM or GWS without power since you will be hardcore raped by nonbasic removal..wastelock = game. The UG build has a more stable land count and IMO will play better than an unpowered version of GWS or ICBM since it will be more focused.

[frontier]

If you are playing in 0 proxy tournaments...I would then suggest sticking with the traditional UG oath build, just play Razia and Akroma instead of the Weaver+Hydra+SoTN etc. I must stress my shakyness about playing ICBM or GWS without power since you will be hardcore raped by nonbasic removal..wastelock = game. The UG build has a more stable land count and IMO will play better than an unpowered version of GWS or ICBM since it will be more focused.

I forgot to mention, that p9 is very rare in my environment - so far noticed 2 loti, 1 recall, and about 10 moxen (total), so almost everybody is playing with unpowered decks

Can you PM decklist of such UG Oath to me? Thank you

[Harlequin]

Here is my "Mono-Blue" Oath deck.  Its really a Control deck with Oath as it's win condition.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27127.0

For ZERO proxy, your in a bit of a pickle.  cards like Muddle the Mixture get punished from both ends, you have no drain for free mana, and you have no timewalk to mute for.

As a five proxy deck (Lotus, Sapphire, Recall, Walk, Drain?)  you end up with a deck that is very close to the deck that I run (even in a 10-15 proxy enviroment).  I think the deck above is hurt far less by cutting mana drain, than combo-oath is hurt by cutting moxen.

All in all this deck is not for "newer" players.  I tend to do well with it because I have a decent grasp on how to compete in a control mirror.  Whenever I give this deck to newer players they always do terrible with it.  But if you think you can take a control verse control match, then you might want to try this deck.  You might find some ideas in that thread though.  Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[doomhed]

GWS Oath
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
4 Force Of Will
4 Impulse
4 Mana Leak/Ertai's Meddling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
1 City Of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Thats the best 5-proxy build I could make. I chopped the off-color moxen so you could keep ancestral/walk.

[Illuvatar Reborn]

The oath timewalk with an orchard out is basically gg. It lets you win now, instead of waiting the extra turn for them to find an answer.

Time walk deals with the biggesr problem with oath decks. They need 2-3 turns to actually win after they "win". This is far too long in some cases, especially against combo decks, gifts, or slaver, which can randomly pull themselves out of some deep holes. Time walk lets you resolve it, oath up another creature, and smash with two hasty wenches. They get no outs, they get no more topdecks, you just win.

For oath: Time walk > moxes

yes, but when the combo player goes: timewalk, crazy setting up, yawgwin, timewalk, with something like necropotence out, they win anyways.

[Implacable]

Assuming that you don't have Force, Drain, or Leak.  Which is *ahem* somewhat unlikely.

[Illuvatar Reborn]

Assuming that you don't have Force, Drain, or Leak.  Which is *ahem* somewhat unlikely.

assuming youre not playing IT, with forces of your own, and duress. its not like you try to go off without protection you know.

[Gekoratel]

As far as I know Time Walk should not be in IT because it does nothing to help up the storm count and makes mulliganing decisions more difficult.  If your going to cite using Time Walk in combo Grim Long would be a better example but that deck does not run FoW.

I would say that Time Walk is still better in Oath than in combo decks because speeding up your clock by a turn is huge.  If you are casting Time Walk before you are going to activate Oath then you are not using the spell properly.  The only deck that Time Walk may be better in is Gifts because with Yawg's, Recoup, and Burning Wish the deck can start chaining Walks better than Blessing will with Oath.

[frontier]

Thats the best 5-proxy build I could make. I chopped the off-color moxen so you could keep ancestral/walk.

I`m struggling to build Oath w/o proxies, so time walk (which has been proved to be very useful in this deck) has to be cut and it has no replacement. Any ideas?

Someone offered Ertais's Meddling - I think that mana leak is superior to this card (simply because of rule X cannot be 0 on Meddling) - for the same mana cost, you have a hard counter and a delayed spell for one turn. The choise is obvious.

[frontier]

I`ve tested onpowered oath against Izzetron (that`s right, a T2 deck - just for phun) and faced one problem - confiscate effects are quit evil. If I delay with combo, Izzetron assembles Tron and start doing broken stuff. Two times I lost to Keiga, one to confiscate itself. It`s very hard to get my stolen creatures back - need to bounce, shuffle to library etc. Anyone has faced something similar? Maybe I should mulligan more aggresively...

[GrandpaBelcher]

Lucky for you, and for anyone who plays Oath, Confiscate effects are all but non-existant in Vintage.  In fact, the only thing I've ever seen or heard of getting confiscated is someone's turn through Mindslaver.  Testing and losing outside of a Vintage gauntlet isn't something to get concerned about since the gulf between Vintage and Standard is big enough to drive Mishra's War Machine through.

You also haven't posted your decklist, so we don't know what you're working with.  Does your build have Wastelands and Duress or are you running closer to mono-blue and straight combo? 

If you're running unpowered, you'll have to run better control and card drawing to keep your opponent down while you assemble your parts.  Use more counters (Force of Will, Mana Leak (assuming you don't have Drain), and probably something else more situational like Muddle the Mixture or Remand to get you through counterwars or Addle or Stifle to stop artifacts and fetchlands.  Muddle the Mixture also allows you to get Oath uncounterably, which is always nice.  Run more hate like Null Rods, Chalice of the Void, and Pithing Needle.  If you run enough artifacts (especially ones that will become redundant like Null Rods and Chalice) consider Thirst for Knowledge.  If you can, keep the deck to blue and Oath cards to keep the mana flowing smoothly.

Alternatively, switch to Fish, which runs better without power.

[Kevin Folinus]

"Walk is the most common tutor target."

Huh?...

Oath/Orchard/Recall.. I am not saying that you never go for Walk but I feel that the situation it is the right play comes up far less often then the previously mentioned cards.

EDIT* Jeff, do you feel Mystical is better then Imp seal or were you trying to save 1 proxy?

[Gekoratel]

Maybe by most common tutor target they mean with Mystical Tutor or most common post-Oath/Orchard target.  There are really only a few scenarios for how to use your tutors in Oath.

1) Find the Combo- This includes using your tutors to find either Oath or Orchard
2) Protect the Combo - Getting either Duress/Leak/Force to cast Oath with backup
3) Gain card advantage - Tutoring up recall is fine when you have neither of the combo pieces or need to gain cardvantage.
4) Ending the Game - The last class of tutor targets is usually Time Walk but sometimes you just need a Wasteland to keep your opponent off mana to win the game(especially when Walk is in the graveyard).

I think that if you’re using your early Tutors to find Time Walk then you are probably playing this deck incorrectly.  It would be like casting Impulse with Oath in play and taking TW over Orchard.

[frontier]

You also haven't posted your decklist, so we don't know what you're working with.  Does your build have Wastelands and Duress or are you running closer to mono-blue and straight combo? 

Alternatively, switch to Fish, which runs better without power.

For reference, here`s my decklist:
Artifacts:
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei`s Divining Top

Enchantments:
1 Fastbond
4 Oath of Druids

Instants:
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
2 Lat-Nam`s Legacy (proved to be worth Main Deck)
4 Mana Leak
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures:
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

Sorceries:
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Gaea`s Blessing

Lands:
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbiden Orchard
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

The problem is, that Oath hasn`t early pressure. Even after setuping combo (Oath + Orchard) you haven`t win - I play in unpowered metagame, there`s a lot of StP, and Force of Will usually goes for protecting Oath.

As far as fish is concerned, I loved this deck - I played it earlier in ext (when Lord of Atlantis, Manta Riders and co was legal). It wasn`t very powerful deck, but very phun one. My metagame is more aggro, so I`m trying to play Oath as it suppose to smash creature-based strategies. Fish is better against random controls or combo (but I may be wrong here).

[Harlequin]

If your up against mainly aggro and swords to plow, maybe Akroma + Pristene Angel + Iridecent Angel are better main deck cards.  Then put Razia in the board.  Against fish (aggro + swords + Extract) I like to have 5 creatures in my deck post board: Razia, Akroma, Pristene, Irridecent, and Ancient Hydra.  I would say you should be main decking at least 3 if your faceing alot of creature hate + small aggro.  You need to oath more than twice to really beat aggro.

[scutakicker]

Actually, if the metagame is aggro then I'd maindeck Iridescent, Pristine and Razia (and board Akroma). Razia's ability to redirect damage is amazing and let's you shoot any troubling creatures. I'd try to add in the 4th Duress since it can take care of care of creature removal. I'd also up the fetchland count by 1--5 fetchlands give you easy access to Underground Seas and so you can board Massacre to take care of any Fish/Aggro deck running white. A Misdirection or two is also very useful to take care of spot removal like Swords.

@ Harlegquin: Fish may run well without power, but it generally does so within a powered, defined metagame.

[Harlequin]

I was using the fish example as an illistration of when and why an oath player would need more than two creatures.  Notice I go on to say "you probably wan't at least 3 of those creatures to beat small aggro."  You could make a case in favor of basically any combination of 3 creatures.  Your probably right, but it all depends on how good or bad the Pro-Red-Black is.  But I guess your probably right. 

Ancient Hydra should not be underestimated either.  As long as you have an open colorless, then he cannot be swords'ed.  He is very effeicent at clearing the board of pesky spirit tolkens if they are ganging up on you.  Also fantastic for stoping welder/dupe.  Remember that he can whack himself in response to the gaea's blessing trigger on the stack, to refresh himself.  For the late game you can recycle him (sometimes multiple times in one turn if you have two oaths on the board) while the "slower" Irridecent, and Pristene angels do the dirty work. 

I guess I agree that Razia, Pristene, and Irridecent is probalby the best maindeck tag team though.

[frontier]

I tried Iridiscent Angel, Pristine Angel and even Kodama of the North Tree (he (or maybe she?) doesn`t fit to other angels - Razia and Akroma). I prefer Iridiscent Angel to other mentioned bodies, `cause she doesn`t need extra use of card like Pristine. Protection from artifacts isn`t matter of great concern. One real artifact threat for creatures is Triskelion, but it can provide only two hits. Also Pristine can block famous 7/10 guy, but if it already landed, your positions is in danger.

What I faced with my decklist is the lack of card advantage - the deck runs out of gas rather early. Lucky, if you have Forbidden Oath (Orchard of Druids). Later on, Impulse + mana on Oath + mana on Mana Leak/FoW + extra blue card can become a problem.

Offtopic: with above mentioned Izzetron I managed to pull second place in a local tournament today. So it doesn`t seem VERY weird that it has defeated Onpowered Oath. But ont he other hand, it is VERY weird.

[Law]

I have found and tested a little (not much) with a creature that works well if you do not see STP much. Blazing Archon stops there aggro guys, plus he is hard to kill in most cases.

He is in my side vs FCG but I need to truly get my vearshon of the deck built and play VS FCG to see how well he trully works. But it is up to you guys and your own testing to see how well he works.