Help me form a new fish deck

[The Chosen One]

Here is my project. I am looking to make a Blue/Red/Black fish deck. Why? Why not? More aggressive persay than U/W/B and hopefully I (we, that's right let's make this a TMD designed deck guys!) can make this deck a contender. Here are the cards that I definitely need to run(not listing any quantities)

dark confidant
grim lavamancer
chalice of the void
null rod(?)
duress
cabal therapy
lightning bolt
gorilla shaman
goblin vandal
stifle
brainstorm
force of will(? maybe not needed)
time walk
ancestral recall

those are definites, here are some strong options:

engineered explosives
pithing needle
terminate
carnophage


any ideas?

[Pitlord]

I think force of will is not the direction we want to take this deck. You should probably be running blue for a splash, mainly for things like ancestral, time walk, and maybe a few other cards.

Null rod is definitly something we want, as we don't have disruption past discard right now.

Confidant is a must have 4 of, but fiend feels really slow for a build like this. He is proactive, and has little synergy with the rest of the deck. I honestly think just confidant and discard should be the basis of the black in our fish build.

Lightning bolt is good, but I think magma jet might be better because of the scrye abilities, and anything you would kill woth bolt dies to jet as well. Also, I don't think 3 to the head has a very big impact overall.

Flying men and ninja make a good pair, and are adressive enough to head the blue in an agressive fish buld. Another creature option might be rootwater thief, allowing us to not roll over and die to things like gifts, and he can potentially shut down oath as well.

On another point, if you really want to play an aggressive fish build, green may be worth considering instead of the red splash, because wild mongrel and basking rootwalla are both great aggro drops. You do lose a lot fo the artifact hate, but get a faster cock, which is what you said you wanted. Just a couple of random thoughts on aggro fish, and I won't post a list now because I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

Here's my list of cards to include in U/G/B Fish, just an alternative...
Basking rootwalla
wild mongrel
null rod
dark confidant
flying men
ninja of the deep hours
cabal therapy
duress
stifle
time walk
ancestral recall

[warble]

Suggest adding:

4x Wasteland
Strip mine
Echoing Truth/Boomerang/Unsummon
Shattering Spree (very good mana ratio)

Suggest re-evaluating:
Null rod, Chalice of the Void and Gorilla Shaman

You don't want to have answers to the same thing 10 times, you want lots of diverse disruption to buy you time to win.  Blue is great at that that's why fish stems from blue.  Because you cut white you need an answer to DsC and beaters, you don't want to just die.

Please also post your mana base, until that happens we don't know if the deck is viable or how you can include force and all that red...

[The Chosen One]

ok here is a list, nothing is set in stone of course (except broken cards i.e ancestral etc..)

Mana base:(22)
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Blue:(10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Time walk
1 Ancestral recall


Red:(10)
4 Magma Jet
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Goblin vanadal (handles stax better than shaman)

Black:(13)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor

Artifact:
4 Chalice of the void
1 Pithing needle

This is a very rough draft, I would consider dropping mana sources maybe down to 20. Thoughts?

[Pitlord]

As I stated above, a fish deck doesn't necessarily NEED to have force of will. It has just always been a basis for aggro-control, providing the control part. But as magic evolves, aggro-control has been taking on new faces, ones that don’t run counterspells, just an aggressive clock and disruption for control. I feel that this is what we should be trying to do with something like this… almost like multiple color suicide. :lol:

I agree shattering spree could be a good inclusion, but I think null rod is definitely good as well. Sometimes redundancy is a very good thing, especially without counterspell backup. Also, I sort of assumed some sort of utility land was a given, but would factory or wasteland be better? Wasteland can create favorable mana screw situations for you, but factory plays into our aggression.

My view may be skewed from playing stax too much, but I think 1 strip mine and 4 wasteland with crucible support would be the way to go. Here is a very rough list based on what I personally feel we could do with this.

Aggro Fish
By Grant Champion-Sciuti
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Flying men
4 Ninja of the deep Hours
Artifacts
2 Sensei’s Top
3 Null rod
3 Crucible of worlds
Disruption
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Time walk
1 ancestral recall
4 Stifle
Mana
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Underground sea
4 Volcanic island
1 Black lotus
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
1 island
1 mountian
1 swamp

[Harlequin]

I dont think brainstorm fits.

Any thoughts about welder and withered wretch? 

Its similar to a deck that Hatcher used to run.  I'll see what I can find for a decklist on that.

[sa-x]

For anything fish that runs black, I have to suggest mesmeric fiend.  The more I see that card used, the more I love it.  Duress 5-8 seems like a good addition to the deck.  I think the biggest problem when making a 3-color fish deck, is the mana base issues, I just feel you sacrifice too much taking it to the 3rd color.  Finally, is  fish really going to be better than 
?  As good as confidant, wretch, fiend, negator are I just feel the mage, kataki, stormscape (most important ability is white), true believer are better.

[warble]

@ Bruenor

You only have 10 creatures.  That's not enough, I resolve 1 triskelion or find a Darkblast games 2/3 and you lose.  Pitlord at least runs 15 creatures, but again only the ninjas can handle Darkblast and even they are only 2/2 so darkblast can be used to kill them.

Every good fish deck cares about it's clock.  Most use standstill to stop the game state for a few free beats.  Good fish decks usually include mishra's factory so the control matchup is more playable (you don't need to resolve spells to win).

Cabal therapy is not a fish card.  Fish has no creatures and no clock, you can't sack your creatures any more especially without manlands.  One of the reasons 3-color fish is so unpopular.  It tends to face control and suffer slow, painful death because *oh why did I not draw a mana source*  Yeah, that can't be you.  This is the reason I wanted to see the mana base.  You will have to cut the moxen and Cabal Therapies for Mishra's Factories and a Black Lotus.  Lotus IS that good.

Suspiciously absent from your current build:

Mishra's Factory
Misdirection
Daze
Standstill
Curiosity/Ninja of the Deep Hours
Null Rod
Black Lotus
Creatures with more than 1 toughness

I hope that helps.  Brainstorm also sucks in Fish, it always has and it probably always will.  You need to draw cards, not filter them.

[The Chosen One]

@ warble: Brainstorm indeed does not suck in fish. Standstill can get played around by any opponent who knows what they are doing. I play U/r and U/w fish also,and almost every build that has T8'd recently have dropped standstill for brainstorm... I can list several points as to why you should run brainstorm if you like.

@ Pitlord: null rod/sensei's top in the same deck=bad synergy.


Maybe this deck isnt a great idea, white has alot to offer fish, stp, meddling mage, orims chant, yadda yadda... I was really kind of going on a limb here, since I have not seen a u/r/b fish deck in circulation yet... I would actually like to make the deck VERY low casting cost and very disruptive with savage creatures like negator etc... I will put something together, play with it and post as soon as I can. Keep throwing ideas at me!!

[pyr0ma5ta]

Withered Wretch is a HOUSE, and Null Rod is the best card that Fish can run.  I would honestly consider something more like UB with Confidant, Wretch, Duress, Hymn, Daze, BS, FOW, Rod, Factory, Waste/Strip.  I've tested a list that looks like this, and while it's a huge beating on Stax, it has problems with blue decks.  I just scoop over and over to Slaver and Gifts with no hope of winning.  Any one else tried a similar build?

[Pitlord]

I agree that null rod + top is bad synergy, but null rod is pretty necessary, and top is easily cuttable. Perhaps brainstorm would be better, as it doesn't suck and we have fetchlands to shuffle away chaff.

I agree that this is probably not going to be a standard fish deck, and I think that is good. The way I am beginning to look at this is more like re-inventing RG hate. We just need to metagame this, instead of focusing on making a new fish deck. Let's compare neo-fish builds we can come up with to neo-hate builds we can come up with in this thread. Testing will prove which archtype to resurect.

[Jank Golem]

If you are running black another card to always consider is Chains of Meseltophes (has anyone really ever spelled that right?). It shuts down draw pretty well, which is always good. It also has some scary synergy with confident, another advantage of it.

The Top and Null Rod synergy is so great you have to either run one or the other. To me it seems Top should go and Null Rod should stay. Goblin Vandal is great, even against none Stax decks, eating moxen is never bad. I have never been a fan of magma jet but it seems like it would be better than bolt here, because of the scry ability.

[doomhed]

so exactly how is this deck better than the established benchmarks (U/G fish, U/W fish)?

it has exactly no counter base whatsoever. this deck is wide open other than a few duresses. this deck is running alot of the same cards as hatcher's "Hate.dec" without the good counterbase. I recommend looking up the build.

[Pitlord]

I like the idea of chains a lot, and forgot about them because I was posting in calss and didn't have much time to think about the list. Consider my list as
-2 Top
+2 Chains

As for hate.dec, that is what this is going to turn into, IMO. Fish is already too established, but hate decks are always viable if you know the meta, and can atually be OK. I will look up the build, but I don't think that every deck absolutely needs to have counterspells to win, you just need lots and lots of answers to make up for their absence.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why is it better than the benchmarks?  Because it can run Pyrostatic Pillar in a combo heavy environment.


The red splash *should* theoretically be used for Pyrostatic Pillar.  And it should be maindeck.  You really don't have tempo otherwise.  The fact that it hoses combo is just an added bonus.

Magma Jet is weak.  Besides Welder, what will you be killing?  Fire/Ice is strictly better against other fish decks because you can two for one.

Run bounce maindeck so you have an actual game against resolved Tinker->Colossus and Stax.

Something like:

21 Mana Sources (including 5 strips)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch (Remember, he can "counter" Welder)
4 Shadow Guildmage (Welder kill should *not* be conditional)
4 Goblin Vandal
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Stifle
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Duress
2 Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

[The Chosen One]

Pyrostatic pillar in a deck that is chock full of spells that are 2cc IMO is not such a great idea. Combined with confidant, I see this hurting you more than helping...

[AmbivalentDuck]

The average CC is approximately 1.  Taking 3 damage per turn is more than acceptable given that playing enough spells to find and cast Tinker (mox, tinker, brainstorm/tutor) causes minimally 6 damage.  And that assumes that your opponent does nothing else.  Pillar will easily do 10 damage to your control opponents/game.

Gifts Stack with Pillar in play:
Lotus
Will
Recoup
Tinker

Hand them Lotus and Recoup:
Play Lotus (-2)
Play Recoup for Will (-2)
Replay Lotus (-2)
Play Tinker (-2)

Total -8

[Harlequin]

21 Sources is likely too few. 

 I use 23 in fish.
Breaking it down to:
3 Artifacts
12 Colored lands (4x fetches, 4x basics, and 4x duels)
7 Non-colored lands Edit
8 Non-Colored lands (5x Strip&Waste, 3x Manlands)

I think that is a natural breakdown for fish.  On a 3 color mana base I dont think 4-12-5 is going to be enough.  You probably want something like 4-15-5 with extra fetching power (6x fetch, 3x basic, 6x duels?)

[Implacable]

21 Sources is likely too few.  I use 23 in fish.
Breaking it down to:
3 Artifacts
12 Colored lands (4x fetches, 4x basics, and 4x duels)
7 Non-colored lands

I think that is a natural breakdown for fish.  On a 3 color mana base I dont think 4-12-5 is going to be enough.  You probably want something like 4-15-5 with extra fetching power (6x fetch, 3x basic, 6x duels?)

By that, I assume that you mean a 7-card combination of Wastelands, Strip, and Mishra's.  What numbers do you run?

[Harlequin]

I ment 8 Non-colored.  because 3 + 12 + 7 clearly does not = 23 

Thats a math major for ya!

I edited my post to accurately reflect the mana.

[Implacable]

I ment 8 Non-colored.  because 3 + 12 + 7 clearly does not = 23 

Thats a math major for ya!

I edited my post to accurately reflect the mana.

Sounds reasonable!

[Harlequin]

I can't see a way around running less than 24 mana in a 3 color fish deck:

24 mana--

4 Artifacts
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapph
Mox Jet
Black Lotus

15 Colored lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic (+/- 1)
3 Underground Sea (+/- 1)

5 Strip Effects
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

I guess the deck could get away with not running ruby because there are very few cards that you need to play on turn 1. Sapphire just rules, but turn 1 Confidant or Wretch will be very crucial.  Other than that, you can fetch red if you need a turn one vandal or the like.

[orgcandman]

I may get pooh pooh'd for this, but have any of you tried Gigadrowse as a tempo stealer? It's fairly amazing as a time-walk effect (On your upkeep, I'll tap your lands). Plus, it's done via replicates, which means it gives no mana on drain, and can't be effectively countered.

It's just a thought.

[The Chosen One]

The average CC is approximately 1. Taking 3 damage per turn is more than acceptable given that playing enough spells to find and cast Tinker (mox, tinker, brainstorm/tutor) causes minimally 6 damage. And that assumes that your opponent does nothing else. Pillar will easily do 10 damage to your control opponents/game.

Gifts Stack with Pillar in play:
Lotus
Will
Recoup
Tinker

Hand them Lotus and Recoup:
Play Lotus (-2)
Play Recoup for Will (-2)
Replay Lotus (-2)
Play Tinker (-2)

Total -8

Ok, if you put it that way I can see it making sense. I had not even really thought of that scenario, I like that... Of course if this deck can drop a few 2/x  creatures and disrupt the opponents game, I would think it would have a solid chance of winning.. What about considering making this a suicide/hate fish deck??? something like:
Mana sources:(22)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Volcanic Isalnd
4 Underground sea
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

artifacts:(7)
3 Null rod
4 Pithing needle

blue:(10)
4 brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time walk

Black:(15)
4 Dark confidant
3 Withered Wretch
3 Mesmeric fiend
4 Sarcomancy
1 Demonic Tutor

Red:(6)
4 Pyrostatic pillar
2 Goblin Vandal

may need to rework the mana base, this seems a little black heavy... Maindeck changes sound good???

[Harlequin]

I don't like the Sacromancy.  I think something else would be better.  Lavamancer, or even something like Goblin welder would likely be better.  Even though you do not have the 2/x beater shell, atleast your creatures do sometihng more than swing.

[warble]

@bruenor

Scooping to chalice @ 1 is terrible.  I guess that's why were are discussing in the vintage improvement forum.  Since this is your thread I'll refrain from any more disrespekt on that decklist but...dude...needs some work...

At this point I'm not sure exactly why you are advocating U/R/B fish.  I can't see from your decklists any advantages.  Personally, I would splash black for DT, WILL and Confidant playing Tinker->DSC and brainstorm in fish at that point but mainly using the basis of U/R fish.  Or I would stick to strict U/B fish with a U/R/B manabase in order to effectively side artifact hate against workshop/cs games 2/3.  I think the whole "ditch what we know and go with hate" is really wrong with fish.  Odds are that's why your decks are goldfishing so badly.

[Pitlord]

I think a lot of people are looking at this wrong. If this thread was titled "Help Me Build A New Hate Deck", would people be more constructive? G/R Hate is the best hate deck we know of, with mountains win again also being played, why not try expanding it into into other colors? Black seems like a decent beater core instead of green, red is staying, so why not try blue as a splash as well?

Anyways, on to the lists, I do agree that diversefying the mana costs would be good, and it does seem a little black heavy. Gigadrwse does seem like a good card, but I don't think it would really work in our lists because blue is basicaly a splash only in nearly every list. The only blue I think we should support would be walk, ancestral, and stifle, with ninja being tested. Sarcomancy seems OK as a beater, but we might need more utility than beats, it depends on style of play.

For a hevay utility build I would suggest something like AmbialentDuck posted as his creature base. For aggro I would suggest:
4 Ninja
4 Confidant
4 Carnophage
4 Vandal/Monkey
3-4 Wretch
and probably a few factories as additional man-land beats.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since you don't run white for StP, Chalice >> Null Rod because it helps to keep DSC off the table.  Also, you really don't have "time" to play Null Rod.  The deck is extremely mana intensive in the first few turns.

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure I agree with that.  In a normal "Best of Three" tournement, If you win your matches then you play at least half and at most 2/3s of your games "on the draw"  So you play more games on the draw, than on the play.  This card is inefficent for stoping tinker DSC because a good player will comit moxen vrs fish.  perhapse something like engineered explosives would be better as far as preventing a DSC.  I would just say run some maindeck Chain of vapors, or seal of removal, or even Echoing truth.

I wouldn't knock old man too quickly.  Sure he is 3cc but he also is  2/3 wich means he dodges Pyroclasm, Massacre, lava dart, and he can withstand a savage darkblasting before he goes down.  Steeling confidants will win you games... stealing welders will win you games... makeing fish fight against it's own blockers will win you games.  If you recently bought a recall whats another $50-$70 to get a pair of sassy old men!