[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[jaeppel]

This new dredge returns card seems that it could address many weaknesses in ichorid's gameplan.  The deck is very fragile, and your winconditions are */1 creatures, some of the most hated out cards in the meta.  Your entier army falls to a single caltrops, not to mention orb of dreams.  Any number of "zap target dork" effects can slow down the win, and while dork-removal cant stop the flood it can buy your opponent the extra turn to win.

Trike, Masticore, Fire/ice, Darkblast, Lavadart, Caltrops, etc, etc:  all of these a gravetroll simply walks over.  You already have 4 huge dudes in the deck you could never hardcast, but a single Returns makes the uncastable troll something that ichorid doesnt have, a mid-term gameplan.

Perhaps the most terrifying creature-based win is the DSC.  Even if your troll doesnt hit 12/12, he still can soak the brunt of the blow and survive the experience.  No goofy combo required, no ghoul/breath/returns nonsense.  ichorid already has a giant dude to reanimate, and he gets big by doing exactly what you want to do, ie dump a bunch of creature cards in the yard.

I find that i always wish i had another way to sac my gravebound ichorids.  Letting them blow themselves up just seems like a waste.  Now there is something to do after flashingback the final Terapy.

It is worth noting though, that the troll adds vulnerability to manadrain... this shouldnt be an issue though after a solid Theraputic session, but it does give the deck a solid drain target, the absence of which is one of the great strengths.

[warwizard87]

   My only problem is how big can he get in reality? Ichorid plays 4 Ichorid 4 ghoul 4 stink weed 4 putried 4 troll. So he can max out at 19/19 asuming you got all of them in the yard and did not remove any with ichorid prior to FB the dread return.  However, that is very unrealistic as chances are you most likely removed 2-3 guys with ichorid prior to this and most cases removed 2 more so you could pop out 2 ichorids and a ashen ghoul ( gets abit better if you poped out 2 ghoul and 1 chorid but i digress i am just pointing out the usual scenarios i have seen in ichorid games. )  So lets say you got 2 ichorids, 2 ashen ghouls, 3-5 imps of differing verity in the yard and say 2 trolls. Now lets say you atatcked turn 2 with 2 ichorids (pretty standerd for this deck) -2 from those numbers. used 2 more guys to pop out the dread. so you have eaten 4 of your fuel. leaving 2 ichorids 2 ghoul 2 and a troll thats 7/7. Still not to bad. Turn 3 i can live with that. 

  HEH funny thing is i was doing the math to try to talk my self out of the card but now the math shows it is worth testing. LOL pay attention this mayt be the only post ever written were the writer switched sides midpost.....

As i was saying i was worried about the actual size the troll could resonably get, but i surprised my self XD. But its obv to me this can't work till after turn 2 and probly not even on turn 5(lack of tasty food). Turns 3-4 seam to be the most optimal times to use the card.

EDIT: after a few hour of testing troll is still 5/5 or 6/6 on turn 5 so he isstill pretty good.

[UR]

EDIT: after a few hour of testing troll is still 5/5 or 6/6 on turn 5 so he isstill pretty good.

What is the list you are running?  Because frankly I'm not very impressed with these results.

[jaeppel]

But isnt having a 5/5 regenerator on your side a very, very good thing when you need one turn to win, you're at 8 life, and you're staring down an 11/11?  Or perhaps you just saw workshop/caltrops hit, and the little jumping imp will just take way too long.  This is a likely gamestate on turn 3-4.  Sure it won't come up every time, but having that one extra trick in the bag can turn "you lose" into "you win."   

Playing a 5/5 regenerating troll for zero mana and three sacrifices that reanimate themselves is pretty hot.  And btw, at BB2, even hardcasting returns for a 5/5 is directly better than a juzam, not that anyone still plays the sadistic bastard.

[UR]

Creating the optimum situation can make any card good. There are times I wish I had a Squire in play. I still say this is strictly win-more because for this to work you are already doing pretty good. Besides the odds of the troll regenerating are virtually non-existant for two reasons;

1. It won't die often.
2. I can't keep a mana open all the time, I'd rather spend it on things that will win me the game (which, I'm probably doing because I've somehow managed to get a 5/5 troll in play).

[warwizard87]

EDIT: after a few hour of testing troll is still 5/5 or 6/6 on turn 5 so he isstill pretty good.

What is the list you are running?  Because frankly I'm not very impressed with these results.

Just my basic list meandeck ichorid list that i placed 5th at charollet with.

    4 City of Brass
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Ashen Ghoul
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Ichorid
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    2 Chain of Vapor
    4 Unmask
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Dread Return

 -1 crop rotation/gamble for it just for testing (seams that was a shady slot any way. IE, I hate not having maindeck needles =] )

That game state were on turn 3 you poped out a 5/5 to 7/7 on turn 3 to swing on turn 4 seamed to happen a decent amount of time.

 

[SiegeX]

In regards to Dread Returns, rather than bringing back a creature to bring more beats the next turn what you need is something so disruptive that it all but guarentees a win.  With a bit of brainstorming there is one creature that comes to mind and that is

Yosei, the Morning Star {4WW} |Legendary Creature -- Dragon Spirit| 5/5. Flying / When Yosei, the Morning Star is put into a graveyard from play, target player skips his or her next untap step. Tap up to five target permanents that player controls.

Brining back a Yosei and sac'ing him to Cabal Ritual is a Duress+Timewalk+5x Twiddle all in one at no mana cost.  I don't believe this is a "win more" tactic because with fish gaining popularity you're going to have to power through their Jotun Grunts and chump blockers.  Yosei will give you that surprise factor to get in for a lethal alpha strike. 

I don't play Ichorid so I can't give any play results with Yosie or make any comment on what card he should be swapped in for (although my gut fealing says Putrid Imp).   I'm hoping those who are very familiar with the deck will give him a try and post their results.

[warwizard87]

Imp is sadly a neccesary evil  it acts a a bazzar 5-8 while feeding ichorids. its quite possable Ichorid will have to go straight u/b to combat the new fish decks. Massacre is pretty good vs them, grunt is still a problem but dark withering may help with him possably

Dark Withering 4BB
Destroy target nonblack creature.
Madness B (If you discard this card, you may play it for its madness cost instead of putting it into your graveyard.)

Course you never hard cast it but he discards to bazzar and imp and possably worth testing to combat grunts.

I can possably see the yosei sideboard. But he really don't deal with the grunts ability. Him being a 5/5 flyer though is pretty nice XD

[SiegeX]

About 2 hours ago I decided to throw together your deck list and remove Imperial Seal for Yosei and all I can say is he is the STONE COLD NUTS!  Granted I only played about 10-12 games in the last two hours but THREE times Yosei single handedly won me games I should have lost.  2 of the 3 were staring right down the face of DSC.  He attacks for 11 then on my turn I bazaar the crap out of my deck and swing for 12.  At EOT I sac three ichords to Dread Return and tag-team in Yosei to Theapy+Timewalk+Twiddlex5 and swing for another 12 next turn uncontested as his board is totally locked down.  It's quite possible that this is just a fluke and I got lucky, but for sombody who just picked up ichorid 2 hours ago I think this really deserves a closer look (plus I'd be nice to finally contribute a staple card to a popular deck =P ).

As for Dark Withering, I think it might have potential as a 1-for-1 with Pithing Needle.  This will allow me to bazaar (without dredge) and take out some pesky creature while simultaneously be counted toward the bazaar discard.

BTW, just as an observation.  Now that Ichorid seems to be a two color deck, I don't think Cities and Gemstone Mines are necessary any more.  I feel that we can replace Gemstone with Underground Sea and Cities with Watery Grave.  Taking 2 points ONCE from a watery grave sounds good to me and I think we can all agree that Underground Sea is strictly better than Gemstone Mine in this deck as it is now.  I should note that this will prevent us from hard casting a Golgari Grave-Troll in a pinch, but how often does that come up not to mention the fact that it is one HUGE drain target.

[jaeppel]

Rainbow lands are awful.  5 color decks are bad.  So I agree, moving to a 2 color manabase does help stablize things.  Mines have an awful tenancy to crap out on you on the turn you need them to win.  4xsea, 4xGrave means solid land that only hurts a little bit.  What about running something more like 4xDelta, 3xSea, 1xSwamp, 1x Island?  It seems it would be nice to have just a bit of good old fashioned basics, but then running fetches runs the risk of dredging all of your targets and topdecking delta. 

I really havent tested enough fetching with dredge to know how much of a problem this can be.  Does anyone have experience with this sort of manabase?  you only really need one land, and if that is good ol' swamp, you have most of your casting taken care of.  ok, so if you have a basic then you need a second land to get the other color.  I think i just disproved my own hypothesis.

The big loss, as i see it dumping the rainbow is balance, it is just such a boss card for a deck that has no hand and no real permanents.  Crop Rotation is nice, but it sort of has the alternate wording "FoW -this- for good game."  there really arent enough lands to go sacing them, even if bazaar is on the other end.  Rotation into Bazaar is -2ca, just casting CStudy is only -1, and leaves you a manasource for next turn with on color cc.  How often does a bazaar REALLY make it to a second activation?

Losing the various rainbow sideboard options hurts a bit, but returns makes this really a different deck, and opens up new options to replace ray of rev/rootmaze/etc.  The morningstar seems so broken here.  I wish i had thought of it.  Titan could be some good against anything else running U-Seas.  Trike to blow up fishies?  Perhaps even tog...

I think the first step to putting together dredgereturns.dec is to burn all of the old decklists and do the whole thing from scratch.  Anyone have a foil brainstorm?

[meadbert]

I have been trying hard to make 2 good Dredge Returns decks.  One looks good the other does not.  First of all I noticed that it interacted well with Acorn Harvest.  You can flashback Acorn Harvest for 1G and create 2 Tokens.  That really helps get out an early Dredge Returns.  In testing I cannot figure out how to create a deck with the right mix of mana sources, creature sources, flash back cards, combo cards and disruption.  I seem to end up dropping Unmask and Leyline of the Void and then the deck is terrible.  This has been a failure.

The list that I have found works the best is Manaless Ichorid.
Here is a discussion on Starcity Games.  Really there is not much discussion because few people take it seriously other than me.

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=291451&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[nataz]

I really havent tested enough fetching with dredge to know how much of a problem this can be.  Does anyone have experience with this sort of manabase?  you only really need one land, and if that is good ol' swamp, you have most of your casting taken care of.  ok, so if you have a basic then you need a second land to get the other color.  I think i just disproved my own hypothesis.

this is pretty much the pro's of U/B mana bases from my point of view.

@ the two color manabase

Crop rotate is one of my favorite cards in the deck being bazaar #5 and insta-strip. I can't see myself playing w/out it, even if you keep the extra 4 spell based draw slots. That being said, a two color base does have its advantages. For one you can run wonder out of the SB, ditto on massacre, ageist wennie decks you have to race. as easy as fish/goblins/TMWA (4x MD crypts, grah!) *can* be, its awfully nice to to worry about blockers or ashen mana (fetching basic swamp obv.).  

Fetchlands also have a significant affect on your land counts considering you are really only running 9 or so lands. In a deck that runs on %'s AND has the ability to see all 60 cards with regularity during any given game, knocking out a fetch or two can mean nabbing an extra business card off a draw effect unlike in something like say, gobbo's.

BS + fetchies is also nice.

The one problem you can run into is occasionally the land thinning effect can be too good, and leave you with no real land left to fetch during critical game states. meh.

The downsides are like I said, having to fetch with no real land in the deck, and not runing crop rotation. Balance is nice, but It goes back and forth. Crop rotation and the ability to fetch stripland is the real loss. There are some different SB stratigies that you lose by going 2 color also, but none of them are amazing enough for me to really care about them (cept maaaybe rootmaze sometimes).

If I was going to run UB ichorid, I think I'd only run 2-3 fetches max. In a nine land config, fetching once takes out over a 20% of the lands in your deck. Fetching twice takes out about 45%. Thats pretty good. It just reaaaly sucks to get those really strong opening dredge hands, and then have no turn 2-3 land play when you need it.

so for U/B lands it would be 4 underground, 2-3 polluted, 2-3 watery graves in my opinion. basics are nice, but how often are you going to be able to fetch? Plus you really need both black and blue for ashen/chain. If you are worried about wasteland, at least they aren't targeting your bazaar.  

P.S.

Dredge returns is a really cool card. I like it in combonation with 2x symbiotic wurm and 2x titan. I'm not sure MDIchoird is the place for it thou, and Manless ichorid lacks some really good cards MD. I have a couple idea's Ive been working on since meatberts post on SCG, we'll see if they work out.

P.P.S.

cool does not always = good.

[President Skroob]

I run 10 mana lands, which consists of 4 Seas, 4 Deltas, and 2 Mires. Only once, as written in the tourney report I linked to above, did I feel the lack of real lands. How I feel basically is that if I can first and second turn fetch, that is one less dead card I have to run through to get my business material into the graveyard. Even if I have Sea and Delta in opening hand, I'll take one to the dome and play the Delta first.

If Fish keeps gaining, I may have to change things up a bit, but for now I'll probably stick with a fetch-heavy mana base.

[warwizard87]

Planer void and layline of the void still scare the crap out of me. How do the u/b only build deal with them. I just hate losing to turn 1 cards.

[President Skroob]

Chain of Vapor paired with Unmask/Cabal Therapy for Planar Void. It's harder to recast Leyline, so it often is easier to handle. I haven't seen much of either, though, as people seem quite content to rest on Tormod's Crypt as their only source of graveyard hate, which is absolutely fine with me...

[meadbert]

I think in Boston there were 2 Decks with Planar Void, 8 with Leyline of the Void and 130 with Tormod's Crypt so you should probably focus on Tormod's Crypt.

[UR]

The last tournament I played, I had the following graveyard hate against me;

R1: 4 Maindeck Leyline
R2: 3 Maindeck Withered Wretch and 3 Sidedeck Planar Void
R3: 3 Sidedeck Tormod's Crypt
R4: No specific board plan
R5: 3 Sidedeck Tormod's Crypt

That seems like your average amount of hate. I do think the Crypt is played more than the other cards (especially now that a new kinky foil got released with Time Spiral). Ichorid is well equipped to handle them however. The only thing you really don't want to see is a double Leyline opening... that is usually followed by a scoop-phase on my part.

[SiegeX]

I'm guessing Ichorid's way of dealing with Crypt maindeck are the two pithing needles?  I havn't seen what a U/B Sideboard looks like (maybe one of you can be kind enought to post one) but im guessing there might be two more in there.  Also, two questions about mulling.  When its game 1, do you always mulligan down to at least 5 until you hit a bazaar?  What about games 2 and 3 when you know your opponent sided in some GY hate against you, what is your mulligan strategy then?

Just from some preliminary playing it seems ichorid is a sitting duck unless it has a bazaar, about the best i can hope for is an unmask or therapy to buy some time.  I tend to want to go bazaar crazy even if i only one mana producing land out which sorta makes ashen ghoul not all that spectacular.

[warwizard87]

At charollet round 1 i actuly played Pithing Needle game 2 vs a guy naming bazzar. I won the game. Course he was playing dragon. i Just abused therapy targeting myself.

 Sure bazzar is the balls to the walls nuts for ichorid. but Imp is no slouch as is self targeted therapy.

Game 1 you mulligan to 5 to find bazzar UNLESS in the 6 or 7 you draw imp+troll with black mana.

Game 2 depends vs long i sometimes keep my 7 card hand with out imp or bazzar but a fist of like layline, chalace unmask+therapy or somethign else silly. Basicly game 2 and 3 is you trying for disription tachtics to combat the hate they sided in. You normaly win game 1 off the back of speed/disruption/surprise(not that opponet was not expecting ichorid its just that they almost likly did not keep a hate filled hand vs you like they would game 2.

[UR]

I'm guessing Ichorid's way of dealing with Crypt maindeck are the two pithing needles?

There is also Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy, Unmask and EOT bounce (I know, it isn't the nuts but you've got to do something).

Also, two questions about mulling.  When its game 1, do you always mulligan down to at least 5 until you hit a bazaar?  What about games 2 and 3 when you know your opponent sided in some GY hate against you, what is your mulligan strategy then?

Bazaar is nice, but you've also got Vampiric Tutor, Crop Rotation and Imperial Seal. That effectively makes for seven Bazaars in your deck (six, if you are running only two colors). That should ensure that you'll get one going. But I'm still running maindeck Brainstorm (over the leyline) so the PImp, a dredger and a mana-source are fine as well.

Bazaar is the most important single card in the deck, but the disruption department is equally important. You can have two Bazaars in your opening hand and still lose because you didn't have a Cabal Therapy, Unmask, CotV, Leyline, etc. in your openinghand. You don't have a reactive deck and not being able to deal with powerful spells like Tinker or Will is a vulnerability that Bazaar just can't solve. Don't blindly keep a hand that has Bazaar in it and the same goes for a hand without Bazaar... don't pitch it back right away. If your opponent resolves a Tinker on the first two turns, I'd rather have a Cabal Therapy and a Chain of Vapor than a Bazaar.

[President Skroob]

I think the Dread Returns idea has merit. It could be a deciding factor in the game against heavy aggro, which I think is Ichorid's hardest matchup.

Since I had seven slots open in my sideboard from the last tournament (1 Scrubland and 2 Valor for my first striking Ashen Ghouls defense against aggro which totally did not work like I was hoping it would as well as 4 Brainstorms that I was unwilling to cut completely but now don't think that I would ever side them in against anything), I have space to play. As a result, I believe that I will be moving to 4x Nether Shadow and 3x Dread Returns. My cousin and I disagree on this, but I believe that Nether Shadow is an excellent utility creature for the deck. He doesn't beat hard, but he chump blocks very well, he sacrifices to Cabal Therapy, and he is nearly impossible to keep down without shutting down the deck. Once Nether Shadow hits the yard, you can kill him every turn and be reasonably certain that he's coming back for free next turn. There is no other creature that fits into the deck so easily and does so much like Nether Shadow does, even if he's a dinky 1/1 for the slot.

Nether Shadow makes it very easy to find three creatures to sacrifice to Dread Return, as it ups your total "completely expendable" creature count to 8 with Ichorids, and if you're willing to toss in Ashen Ghouls that's 12 dudes in the deck to be tossed to Dread Return (I, in most cases, would not toss a Putrid Imp to it). He also has the bonus of raising the creature count in the deck, ensuring not only faster Grave Troll reanimates but also bigger Grave Troll reanimates.

I wouldn't maindeck them, as in most games they are simply not necessary. Most games can be won with Ashen Ghoul and Ichorid alone, but I feel aggro necessitates the addition of extra defense and extra utility. We'll see what happens.

[meadbert]

I thought I would share a few observations regarding Ichorid.  First, I am not sure if this is common knowledge but Gorilla Shaman is an excelent card against Ichorid.  This is because he eats both Chalice and Needle which are needed to protect from Crypt.  I have found that Rootmaze is now made much stronger by Ancient Grudge.

With Rootmaze out your opponents Crypts come into play tapped which gives you an opportunity to flash back Ancient Grudge before Crypt can be used.  I wonder if sideboards should be reworked to include more coppies of Ancient Grudge and Root Maze.  Also I wonder if more Darkblasts are necessary to combat Shaman.  The problem is Shaman frequently destroys the relevant artifact before you have a chance to play Darkblast.

[President Skroob]

I thought I would share a few observations regarding Ichorid.  First, I am not sure if this is common knowledge but Gorilla Shaman is an excelent card against Ichorid.  This is because he eats both Chalice and Needle which are needed to protect from Crypt.  I have found that Rootmaze is now made much stronger by Ancient Grudge.

With Rootmaze out your opponents Crypts come into play tapped which gives you an opportunity to flash back Ancient Grudge before Crypt can be used.  I wonder if sideboards should be reworked to include more coppies of Ancient Grudge and Root Maze.  Also I wonder if more Darkblasts are necessary to combat Shaman.  The problem is Shaman frequently destroys the relevant artifact before you have a chance to play Darkblast.

I, personally, don't see the Mox Monkey as too big of a threat. The biggest threat of Tormod's Crypt is not really it going off once, but twice. It's not too difficult to win after a single Crypting, but the second one usually seals the deal. This is why I'm much more frightened of Goblin Welder coming online than Gorilla Shaman. Goblin Welder will make their single Crypt reusable, and unless the Welder gets dealt with swiftly, that's probably going to be game.

Chalice at 1 solves all the problems. No Welder, no Monkey, no lots of things. Crypt can come through, but as I said, a single Crypt won't seal the deal. Similarly, if I get a first turn Pithing Needle I'll often name Goblin Welder before Tormod's Crypt (assuming I'm playing against a Workshopping deck, but I'm talking about the threat of Welder versus the threat of Gorilla Shaman here and they almost always come together, as I can think of very few other decks that will field enough red to pick up the Shaman). Welder makes their deck explode, and I'd much rather keep their deck position under control than keep them from feeling a false sense of security after dropping a Crypt on me.


As for Ancient Grudge... it has made me think about returning to a five color base... but it hasn't convinced me. The five color base can run Root Maze, Ray of Revelation, and Ancient Grudge. Those are pretty good disruption, but I'm not sure my playstyle can handle Gemstone Mines again... God I hate those things...

Also, there have been few times (none that I can remember but I don't want to use "never") that I've really been in need of some Enchantment or Artifact removal. I'm sure I'd use it, but I don't really feel that I really need it, and that means I'd rather have things I feel I need.

In short, I don't think that Gorilla Shaman has to be much of a threat assuming you play with him in mind, and though Ancient Grudge is neato tricks I don't think that the deck is in dire need of Artifact removal. Some may disagree, but I think that might come down more to a metagame call than anything else.

[beepthebot]

holy crap! i never thought of the potential for blessed wine in Ichorid! i will have to playtest 4x of those at waterbury this year.

Banned. This kind of spam is totally unacceptable, and the rest of your posts are getting deleted.

-Jacob

[UR]

Chalice at 1 solves all the problems.

I don't know your list, but doesn't Chalice at One completely destroy your own list? All your answers are usually one mana, not to mention your Cabal Therapy's and Brainstorms (if you are running them) will get countered so you are kind of getting in the way of your own deck just to stop a card that can be stopped using several other cards. I don't really see the point. Also, since you can't reliably get chalice for one on the first turn (heck, my list can't reliably get to two mana ever), they will have a good opportunity to cast it before you can stop it unless you blow an absurd amount of resources just to kill the welder.

[President Skroob]

I would call Welder Stax's saving grace against Ichorid. He makes that Tormod's Crypt come back, and in my experience the only thing that can save Stax from Ichorid is recurring Crypt or Karn.

Sure, Chalice at 1 stops a lot of things in Ichorid. The things it stops are not required for Ichorid to win, though, and in many cases the loss your opponent feels will be much greater than what you feel. Ichorid can easily win without Brainstorm, without Cabal Therapy, without Chain of Vapor, and even without Putrid Imp (though if I have one in hand without a Bazaar I would even delay a turn to drop the Chalice assuming I couldn't do both) though all of these things certainly help. Long has a very hard time running without its Brainstorms and Dark Rituals. Stax doesn't like to lose its Welders.

In my opinion, the benefits of Chalice at 1 are much greater than the drawbacks that Ichorid will feel from it. I'm not saying that it can be played turn 1 every game, and there are times when it will hit the board later than is desired. However, Welders don't always show up first turn either, and if I can make the defensive play to get down a Chalice for 1, I'll probably take the necessary steps to do so. Chalice is a solution that sticks around for the game, which is something that Ichorid doesn't have much of. I'm not saying that Darkblast, Chain of Vapor, and Cabal Therapy are bad, but I am saying that there are cases where I will forego all of them for a more permanent solution.

[Twaun007]

I would call Welder Stax's saving grace against Ichorid. He makes that Tormod's Crypt come back, and in my experience the only thing that can save Stax from Ichorid is recurring Crypt or Karn.

President Skroob and other Ichorid players, I have been playing stax for some time know. Welder, Tormod's crypt, and Karn are not Stax's only way's to beat Ichorid. I have tested cards from caltrop's to Orb of Dreams and found a single card that murders Ichorid if ptotected properly. The key word is protected, its not a card that would be tossed out with out back ups so don't be like "I'll just dark blast it!". I have been testing Goblin sharpshooter and it is pure nuggetry. I have not lost to Ichorid since I have included it in my side board.

[President Skroob]

I would call Welder Stax's saving grace against Ichorid. He makes that Tormod's Crypt come back, and in my experience the only thing that can save Stax from Ichorid is recurring Crypt or Karn.

President Skroob and other Ichorid players, I have been playing stax for some time know. Welder, Tormod's crypt, and Karn are not Stax's only way's to beat Ichorid. I have tested cards from caltrop's to Orb of Dreams and found a single card that murders Ichorid if ptotected properly. The key word is protected, its not a card that would be tossed out with out back ups so don't be like "I'll just dark blast it!". I have been testing Goblin sharpshooter and it is pure nuggetry. I have not lost to Ichorid since I have included it in my side board.

Oh you janky devil, you. I'll see YOU in the tournament brackets!

It's true, I have seen Sharpshooter mow down rows of my dudes before when playing against Goblins, and I'm sure it works great in other creations since it stands strongly alone as well. I was thinking Dread Return might do the trick, but since it is sorcery speed all the dudes to be sacrificed for the flashback will never make it to the main phase if Sharpshooter is on the field.

[Tobi]

Is Sharpshooter really that much of a problem? You have Darkblast and Pithing Needle against it.

Dread Return is not really an option for Ichorid as I see it. It may need a deck build especially around it to work properly.

[President Skroob]

Is Sharpshooter really that much of a problem? You have Darkblast and Pithing Needle against it.

Dread Return is not really an option for Ichorid as I see it. It may need a deck build especially around it to work properly.

It might be just me, I'm not sure. I have all my Darkblasts and Pithing Needles relegated to sideboard positions because my metagame doesn't include tons of X/1 creatures or things that I consider enough of a threat to Pithing Needle. Sharpshooter doesn't show up first turn, usually, so a well-placed Cabal Therapy might remove an impending threat before it becomes an active threat.

I think Dread Return is quite good for Ichorid. It can really equalize the heavy aggro matchup, which Ichorid tends to just plain out lose. If you combine it with sideboarded Nether Shadows, Dread Return can pop up early and maybe even often to swing big for lethal. Only many additional hours of testing and gametime will tell if it truly works in play and not just practice.