The right play? Duress vs. Force of Will

[GrandpaBelcher]

This has been bothering me since it happened since I'm still not quite sure what I should have done.

I'm playing UB Fish against GrimLong and I have mulliganed to 6 to get a working Force of Will in my opening hand.  I'm on the draw.

My opponent opens with land, Duress.

I already know that my Force of Will will be taken.  Do I counter the Duress?

I didn't, figuring that I would have one more card with which to put together a counterattack and that my opponent would have gone through with a winning hand next turn whether he'd looked at my hand or not based on the slim odds of me having two FoW and two other blue cards in a mulliganed hand and a topdeck.

If I had countered, would there be any chance of fooling my opponent into thinking I had multiple Forces, or Force and some other viable early-game threat.

In my situation, after letting the Duress through, I had an uneventful first turn and lost on his second turn, so at least my suffering was short.

[The Atog Lord]

I'd only Force the Duress if I had something worth protecting. In general, it isn't worth the blue card and the life to stop the opponent from seeing your hand. You might need the blue card you'd have to pitch at some later point, and moreover the one life lost could be the difference between winning and losing the game.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Damn you for replying while I was typing, Rich! Anyway, Rich is right. There is something to be said for bluffing in Magic, but with 6 cards post-mulligan, most players aren't apt to believe you have another FoW online. There are more than a few situations where Forcing Duress is correct, just not here. Plus, as Rich said, if you want to Zap yourself, just ask the opponent and I'm sure he'll oblige you.  :lol:

Later,
Dave

[Tobi]

If the Force is your only means of protection, I would Force the Duress. In the end, it does not matter if you force or if opponen takes it with Duress, you will have no protection the next turn. You just do not want your opponent to know that

If you Force the Duress, your opponen doesn't know if you have anything else, so he might not risk spending his ressources, play more carefully, which could possibly give you one more turn to Brainstorm or something else.

[adrienger]

nobody can give a good answer if you dont tell the card that will be removed if you indeed force...or if you have the choice between two or more cards to trash.

For instance, if the card is chain of vapor, you should force...

[M.Solymossy]

The real problem Im seeing isn't that you got duressed, it's that you were playing blue-black fish 

[GrandpaBelcher]

The real problem Im seeing isn't that you got duressed, it's that you were playing blue-black fish

This is probably the correct answer.

However, had I been playing something other than UB Fish...

If I recall correctly, I had only one blue card in hand besides the Force, and I'm pretty sure it was a Standstill that I wouldn't have been able to get into play without drawing a mox.  I was hoping to draw a Chalice of the Void or another Force of Will since I still had the blue-card to drop to use it.

My feeling was at the time that it really wouldn't matter because the GrimLong player would try to go off next turn (and likely succeed unless I topdecked) against my shrunken hand if I did Force, and would know I couldn't stop him next turn without a topdeck if I let him see my hand.  It's six of one, half dozen of the other.  So I didn't Force because, eh, why bother?  I have a better chance of avoiding death if I keep the blue card in my hand.

[Smmenen]

As a Grim Long player, if you FOW my turn one Duress, that will make me think harder about whether I should try to see what else you have in hand.  For example, it will make me htink you are protecting Stifle.

In the end, my plays will probably be the same, BUT it will make me think harder.  If you are good at getting to your opponent psychologically, then FOwing may be the correct play.  You can try and induce your opponent to make a play mistake.  And sometimes, thats the only way you can win.

[Implacable]

I was put into this position several times yesterday, and, most of the time, I Forced.  If I had more disruption in my hand, then using Force on a Duress is a solid but unamazing play.  If I did not, however, I could perhaps induce my opponent to wait another turn before going off, giving me more time to draw into solutions and hate.

[The Atog Lord]

The fundamental issue at hand here is whether you believe giving up a "hard" or "real" resource is worthwhile to get inside the opponent's head. This is a similar question to whether you should ever leave mana up to bluff a Mana Drain.

My answer is no. If you're Forcing the Duress to protect, say, a Nullrod which you can cast the next turn, then that's perfectly fine. But to Force and lose  a life and a card to bluff, or to not cast your mainphase spell to bluff, is to deny yourself resources in the hopes that the opponent will do something wrong. And I'd much rather just make the plays that will give me the best chance to win, not taking psychology into account. Your mileage may vary.

[Implacable]

I suppose so, Atog.  I think it really depends on what your opponent is playing and if you know them will.  Try to judge their psyche and then act accordingly.