[Single Card Discussion] Hide/Seek

[roberts91rom]

Hide/Seek                  RW/WB
Sorcery 
Put target artifact on the bottom of its owner's library
//////////////
Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game. Gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Seems like a pretty sweet card to me, though it is in some off colors. Hide negates Tinker and any other artifact threats without bouncing it for replaying or allowing Welder to party. Seek looks like the hotness against Gifts/Oath. I'll take that Darksteel Colossus/Akroma thank you very much. Knowing WotC this will probably cost 3-4 mana per side, but let's say we make a candle-light vigil in front of their headquarters and demand it cost 2 mana pre side. Hidden gem for maindeck/sideboard, or is it not broken enough/properly colored for vintage?

In my opinion something like 5-color Stax or any other rainbow deck could abuse this card. Both sides have a noticeable effect against any deck. Extract is good against oath. This is Extract+Time Walk since you gain another turn in life. This is not to mention that CS and Stax like their artifacts where wellder can toy with them, especially CS. Gifts Hates this card if you resolve it on Darksteel, and a Tendrils Gifts player will more or less punch you. It can also be used against storm to remove tendrils. This means they need either 2x tendrils, or burning wish. Not to mention TPS has to be Perfect+2 more spells.

So once again, we must ask ourselves: Hidden gem for maindeck/sideboard, or is it not broken enough/properly colored for vintage?

[Juggernaut GO]

When I first saw the spoiler it said instant, now that its a sorcery,  definitley not as good.

[roberts91rom]

It's also not 100% confirmed. Many things can change about this card (cost, speed, effects). As the card is now however, is it worthy of testing or consideration? As an instant, I would not even second-guess this card as being insane.

[Nefarias]

The effects are defintiely things that Vintage could use, but the colors are a huge deterant. Right know, the only decks that can use this efficiently are decks that run off City of Brass/Gemstone Mine/Forbidden Orchard.

Unless I'm forgetting any, the decks that do that right now are GrimLong, 5C Stax, Ichorid, and 5c Dragon. Answering opponent's threats are not the strategies of any of these decks. With GrimLong, Ichorid, and Dragon, the purpose is not to disrupt your opponent's strategy-it's to win before their strategy is relevant. The only cards that these decks generally answer are those that disrupt its own strategy-Tormod's Crypt, Arcane Laboratory, Leyline of the Void, Pithing Needle. While Hide can to a degree serve this role, there are much more efficent answers, and these decks rely on the efficiency of their answers. These decks really don't care about the Seek side at all.

Then there's 5c Stax, which I know you mentioned as a possible candidate, and at this point is the most likely one. However, the purpose of this deck is to make your opponent's startegy irrelevant, because he will never execute it. The goal for Stax is to make it so your opponent has nothing to cast Hide on, and make him unable to cast anything you'd Seek for. That said, this is still interesting in that it shores up any faltering that strategy may have: If he slips something by, you can Hide it, and Seek furthers the goal of neutralizing their gameplan. I don't think that this would replace Jester's Caps, though, because almost every deck that Cap is good against has at least two cards you want to remove (Tendrils/Colossus, Tendrils/Burning Wish, Tendrils 2x, Colossus/Time Vault, Akroma/SotN). The advantage that Hide provides does not outweigh Cap's ability to remove three cards, be cast off Workshop, or be recurred with Welder.

I agree that it packs two very interesting and potentially useful effects, but I don't think it has a place right now, even though it is both a proactive and reactive answer to DSC.

[ReAnimator]

Extract U
Odyssey rare
Sorcery
Rules Text (Oracle):    Search target player’s library for a card and remove that card from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


Does Hide & Seek even have a chance against this? 3 hard colours or even just 2, vs 1 blue seems like an easy fight.
You aren't really playing this for the Hide portion, and the increased cost, difficulty to cast and mostly irrelivant life gain seem pretty weak comparitivly.

In T2 and ext. where there are BW archetypes (or potentially) i can see this being run but in T1 i think extract just owns this even with the other bonus' this gives.

[Pitlord]

I don't think that this could easily be incorporated into many decks. Everything Nefarias said is dead on about the archetypes that could support the colors.

I DO think that this could help bring about some weird breed of fish, or possibly just add on to weird, local or underground builds of fish. That is assuming that the sides cost 2 each. Any more than 2 mana per side, and this is pretty close to unplayable. As it is, it seems to be pushing to border of playable, as extract is almost always better.

[Liam-K]

Extract U
Odyssey rare
Sorcery
Rules Text (Oracle):    Search target player’s library for a card and remove that card from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


Does Hide & Seek even have a chance against this? 3 hard colours or even just 2, vs 1 blue seems like an easy fight.
You aren't really playing this for the Hide portion, and the increased cost, difficulty to cast and mostly irrelivant life gain seem pretty weak comparitivly.

In T2 and ext. where there are BW archetypes (or potentially) i can see this being run but in T1 i think extract just owns this even with the other bonus' this gives.

Honestly though, the colours will kill it, unless someone makes WB fish or something like that.

I don't think this is fair.  Hide/seak does 2 things extract does not against non-flamevault gifts:
deal with resolved tinker
force tendrils @ storm=16 (assuming no life loss, but still more than 10)

Both make winning harder for the other guy.  That's not neccecarily the right way to spend your resources, but it still looks like a pain in the ass.  WBR fish, as unlikely as it seems right now, would love to do both of those things.

[49 Cents]

It isn't blue, so we can use this card in decks like Sui Black (BW; Meandeck style).

I guess it's good against Gifts. Remove Colossus, +11. Go ahead with your Tendrils..

There are probably better cards though.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The real question: why play this over Swords to Plowshares?  Would a deck like this even *want* an Extract effect?

Hypothetical WBR Fish:

Beats:
4 Sarcomancy (Weakest slot, Hide/Seek would go here)

Never lose to Stax:
4 Goblin Vandal
3 Kataki War's Wage

Draw:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Disruption:
4 REB
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares

23 Mana Sources

[Kowal]

Building it based around red to use that half would be a mistake in a first place.  In addition your list is waaaaaaay too heavy on random hate slots.  Seriously, 4 plow?  10 duress effects?  Eeeew.

Here's what Jacob ran at Richmond.  Whether or not it's worth a slot or two in here?  Arguable.  In all honesty, I think it kicks the shit out of plow for handling Colossus, given the following:

1) You gain the life, making them going the distance with Trike or Tendrils considerably more difficult
2) You can do it in the early game, as opposed to trying to cast plow in the mid-game when they've had time to outdraw you and get a counter or two up.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Jet
2 Null Rod
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Sarcomancy
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Swords To Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Swords To Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kataki, War's Wage

[Liam-K]

One thing Plow can do that this cannot is deal with colossus on their turn (which matters when people are abusing time walk).  However, if someone's comboing out like this, they probably have the force.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I was thinking more along the lines of Welder.  At instant speed the (RW) effect would be almost as good as StP because it could negate a Welder activation and create some tempo for you.  But at sorcery speed, I can't see it being better than StP in a Stax or CS heavy environment.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I see it as a viable tool in DotD. The deck already has an amazing game vs oath, but it can help it vs the tendrils match up (only real hard match up, argue about this later).
Also, removing the card from the game and gaining life from it can buy two more turns on a oath clock.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

The card is slightly different from what's being reported on MTG Salvation's spoiler list. Here's the full version straight from WotC:

Hide//Seek
RW//WB
Instant//Instant
Put target artifact or enchantment on the bottom of its owner’s library.
//
Search target opponent’s library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Source: WotC Gather

[Burntgerbil]

I noticed this also. Thanks Mr. Shakey. This strikes me as a card that will fit in a new archetype about 1 or 2 years down the line. I can see it now, it will be almost forgotten, then find the perfect home in "Gingerbread Palace" (the deck that will be banned into non-existence in 2008).

[AmbivalentDuck]

This is a *very* preliminary list...but I'd like to point out the *very* solid results it's been posting.  So far, it's owned Stax, Gifts, and GWS Oath fairly consistently.  Being able to sit on Seek is strong, but viable due to its instant speed.  I've actually gotten away with using it as an overpowered counter-tutor.  To any charge that the list is little more than a ball of hate, no disagreement here.  I'd just like to note that only the sb graveyard hate is likely to go "out of fashion" in the near future.  Jagged Poppet is a surprise MVP in many situations.  Forcing a 3-card discard is strong.

         
5 Strip
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain      
3 Swamp   
2 Scrubland
2 Plateau      
1 Badlands   
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet   
   
4 Goblin Vandal   
4 Dark Confidant   
4 Withered Wretch
2 Jagged Poppet   
   
4 Pyroblast
   
2 Null Rod   
4 Chalice of the Void   
4 Hide/Seek   
4 Cabal Therapy   
4 Duress   

1 Demonic Consultation   
                  
Sideboard            
4 Planar Void   
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Seal of Cleansing

Your formatting here is horrendous.  I wasted several minutes cleaning it up so it's actually legible.  Consider this a warning:  Just because your paragraph was up to the writing standards here on TMD doesn't mean your decklist doesn't have to follow suit.
-Kowal[/color]

Sorry about that...I just copied straight from MWS.  I'll make sure to format more legibly in the future.

[Nastaboi]

I have been testing a decklist similar to this. I don't know about Jagged Poppet. Do you empty your hand fast enough? I had Vial in my build, because I had to save mana to cast Hide//Seeks and use activated abilities on my creatures. And I had Kami of Ancient Law, my favorite creature. I would think KoALa or Lavamancer would be better in a less powered environment where I play, but then again, Poppet is the beef. Have considered Genju of Spires as a finisher? And I wouldn't play 12 one-mana disruption maindecked but opt for more creatures or removal instead. And Leylines might be enough, Planar Voids are overkill.

And yes, this deck concept looks really promising.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Do you empty your hand fast enough?

You can *easily* dump your hand onto play by turn 4.  I like extremely redundant hate for the simple reason that this deck really can't support much tutoring.

[ELD]

I feel this card is a seriously powerful slot in hate decks.  At instant speed, you can make so many insane plays.  Following up your opponent's mystical with seek is so much destruction vs many decks it's immeasurable.  Hide also gives you a real answer to a tinkered colossus, as opposed to swording him and giving your opponent a million turns to plan how to win.

[oneofchaos]

My friend is testing out an aggro B/R/W deck with confidants, true believers, vandals, mox monkeys, withered wretches, and 4 null rod, 4 challice, and 4 duress.  I'm thinking of adding a few unmasks in for speed, but what happens is every time he tries to hide/seek I use wasteland and cut him off.  I personally think it's fairly narrow, and unless your deck is somewhat like my friends, then it can't abuse it quite so much.

[AmbivalentDuck]

My version of the deck is seeing significantly better results.  I've played against a few semi-prominent TMDers and elicited the same response each time: they're buying playsets of Hide//Seek before the price jumps.  I'm bringing it to a tournament in a few weeks so I won't share the list yet, but a few big "hints."   

1.  True Believer forces you to run fewer basics.  This is bad for obvious reasons.

2.  Run at least 21 lands. 6 should be fetches, at least 5 should be basics.

3.  Cabal Therapy is good.

4.  You only need 2 Null Rod.

5.  It's an instant...so use the fact that you can play it whenever you want to your advantage.

[Rittler]

I'm also toying around with a deck utilizing Hide//Seek. It is slightly more agressive then what I saw here yet, I think.
So here is what I built:

4x Duress
4x Hide//Seek
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Null Rod
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Dark Confidant
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Genju of the Spires

4x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Badlands
2x Plateau
1x Scrubland
3x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Swamp

Sideboard:

4x Sacred Ground
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Seal of Cleansing
3x Red Elemental Blast

The combo of Ankh + Ghost Quarter is really good and Pyrostatic Pillar gives you a decent Combo Matchup.
The Sacred Grounds are there to improve your Staxx Matchup, but in my metagame I don't see much Staxx.
The most difficult matchup is against Oath.

So lmk what you think about this pile...

thx

hirudo

[oneofchaos]

I'm also toying around with a deck utilizing Hide//Seek. It is slightly more agressive then what I saw here yet, I think.
So here is what I built:

4x Duress
4x Hide//Seek
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Null Rod
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Dark Confidant
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Genju of the Spires

4x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Badlands
2x Plateau
1x Scrubland
3x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Swamp

Sideboard:

4x Sacred Ground
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Seal of Cleansing
3x Red Elemental Blast

The combo of Ankh + Ghost Quarter is really good and Pyrostatic Pillar gives you a decent Combo Matchup.
The Sacred Grounds are there to improve your Staxx Matchup, but in my metagame I don't see much Staxx.
The most difficult matchup is against Oath.

So lmk what you think about this pile...

thx

hirudo

Well you can always seek away a force from their deck to buy you an extra turn.  What you really have to do with any aggressive build like this is get a decent opener to disrupt turn 1 mox, orchard, oath, challice @ 0.  I didn't mean disrupt i meant play against it.  The ghost quarter/ank combo works nice as ankh also takes 1/4 of their life from fetches. 

[Rittler]

I think in a case like the one you stated...

turn 1 mox, orchard, oath, challice @ 0

...you have to find Duresses for their Counters, Swords for their Creatures and Seeks for your lifetotal and just try to race them as fast as possible.

You can't stop a opening like this if you're not playing blue for FoW. So we have to use all our aggressiveness to play against it, and go straight for the win.

[Pitlord]

I have to disagree with you on this one. Against a turn 1 nut draw like that form oath, you HAVE to be the control. You CANNOT possibly race 2 hasty angels. Your only chance in this situation is to get a duress and a swords, or some other sort of removal. Once oath has oath and orchard down, they literally don't have to play another spell against a deck like this. You have to get removal, and you have to get time. Racing will make you lose.

[Glix]

Or you could, idk, turn 1 hide the oath (requires one of two moxen).

[Pitlord]

If you actually manage to hide the turn 1 oath, then probably you could try to race. However, hiding the oath is playing the control route, like I said. After you hide it, which is you playing control element, you switch quickly to beat down. You have to be able to know when to race and when to dig for control. If you don't know how to switch roles with suicide/fish, you will lose.

[Nastaboi]

I've found Oath matchup extra tricky because I'm not always sure which side of the card to use, Hide or Seek. Should I Extract them when I can, or just lay down beats? They got the Oath down, should I Hide it or use Seek on their other creature and try to race?

[oneofchaos]

Glad Hide/Seek is an instant so EOT you can use either one.  What makes the deck so good, is it can use both cards, and use them both well.

[Pitlord]

Whether to Hide//Seek depends on a lot of things, such as life totals, hand size/usefulness, as well as how much power you have on the board. Conceptually it is a difficult question to answer, but should seem fairly certain and easy to make the decision in any given situation, all it requires is a little basic math on how fast you can win.

Overall though, I think the best play in most circumstances is hiding the oath eot. This is a fuctional time walk. It doesn't buffer your life total, but even if they have another oath in hand, they need to replay it, and wait until next turn to trigger. Basically, you get 2 turns of un-opposed bashing, which is going to generally be better than a life buffer and an opposing hasty angel.