Flame Fusilade + Time Vault no longer functional on Monday, 4/24/06

[Yare]

I totally disagree with you Yare. i think there would be no reason for them not to ban it in Legacy if that was their aim, even for price. When they split the lists, price was one of the factors contributing to why cards were being banned. Legacy would not have uproared if it had been banned, in fact, most of us were expecting it to be March 1st, and were genuinely surprised it wasn't. Hell, even if the errata changed in correlation to a B/R announcement, no one would have been that upset. Its the sudden and the arbitrary that has everyone outraged.

Then my perception of Legacy must be incorrect.  Honestly, I know very little about Legacy and was speculating perhaps more than I should have.  What kind of effect is/was Time Vault having on that format, if any?

[Whatever Works]

Its not like Time Vault is THAT horrible of a card without this 1 affect. It was used LONG ago in several lockdown decks involving smokestack/tangle wire/etc...  Its also not bad in the stax mirror for the very same reasons.

Price is a non issue. End of Story.

ALSO, Flamevault was NOT good in Legacy. It was not tier 1... Why would they ever ban it?

[emidln]

Its not like Time Vault is THAT horrible of a card without this 1 affect. It was used LONG ago in several lockdown decks involving smokestack/tangle wire/etc...  Its also not bad in the stax mirror for the very same reasons.

It is now just about infinitely worse for that use as well. Stax wanted to skip all of its turns with a Tangle Wire/Smokestack and Trinisphere/SoR out. That was the primary win for the Legacy version of the Stax build of Flame Vault.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Then my perception of Legacy must be incorrect. Honestly, I know very little about Legacy and was speculating perhaps more than I should have. What kind of effect is/was Time Vault having on that format, if any?

Not much at all.  People tried to break it, but the combo was fragile and easily disrupted.  When the 3 best decks in the format either inherintly beat or race combo, or go off in response with storm +1 or 2, the combo couldn't thrive.

Its not like Time Vault is THAT horrible of a card without this 1 affect. It was used LONG ago in several lockdown decks involving smokestack/tangle wire/etc... Its also not bad in the stax mirror for the very same reasons.

Price is a non issue. End of Story.

ALSO, Flamevault was NOT good in Legacy. It was not tier 1... Why would they ever ban it?

Because price is an issue to the legacy banned list.  Masknaught sucked, too, but the price of Mask was enough for them to axe it.  Banning would have been the correct answer if legacy was the target.  I don't believe it was.  I'm not sure what the point was.

[Fenrus]

I just wanted to state that I feel an injustice has been commited within the vintage and legacy communities. The errata of Time Vault is completely unnessecary, especially given the timing. The errata wasn't announced with the banned/restricted list announcements, and an entire 8 months after the combo was discovered. You are effectively banning Time Vault from vintage and legacy by killing its usefulness (Months after decks have grown and matured, much like Time Vaults value which is about to see a massive decrease.). Just my $.02.

Richard Centanni
An angry vintage player.

That is what I wrote to Mark Gottlieb.

[The Atog Lord]

This is upsetting. It would be one thing if they honestly revert to the original wording of the card. Then it would likely go up in value, and Voltaic Key would deserve its restricted list position. my suspicion, however, is that they give it a new wording which is neither its currend wording nor its initial wording.

[Jacob Orlove]

This is upsetting. It would be one thing if they honestly revert to the original wording of the card. Then it would likely go up in value, and Voltaic Key would deserve its restricted list position. my suspicion, however, is that they give it a new wording which is neither its currend wording nor its initial wording.

The article makes it pretty clear that the wording will be something like this (note: this is not the official wording):

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn’t untap during your untap step. 
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault and put a Time Counter on it.
T, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability if only there’s a time counter on Time Vault.

[yespuhyren]

All I know was, this is VERY scary.  I remember 2 years ago, I only had enough money for 4 shops, and nothing else other than basic stax pieces, though back then the deck was nothing like it was today.  Had they restricted shops (different, yes, but the idea is the same) then the cards I saved up for so long to buy would be worthless, and I'm sure some legacy people who picked up Time Vaults just to build that deck, with some probably saving up their money for that deck they love so much, they would just be devastated. 

Had they restricted shops, I would probably be absolutely miserable, sell all my cards, and be done with the game forever.  Some Legacy players, maybe some of the younger ones who DID have to save up lots of money so they could play that deck they love so much, have had to quit and sell in misery to do this.

This is disgusting on Wizards part.

[Revvik]

Wait, let me get this straight. Gifts decks used what, one Time Vault. So...VINTAGE players are complaining because they lost out on maybe $50 worth of card? Vintage. Vin. Tage. $50.

Do I have that correct?

It should be noted that this in no way should be about lost money.  I am not snubbing the losses of Legacy players who shelled out near $400 for a set, mind you.

[KrzyMoose]

The errata to Time Vault does not affect Legacy as much as it does Vintage (well, from what I understand.  I'm strictly a Legacy player).  Flame Vault Stax (or any deck that included Fusillade-Vault) was not a good or viable deck.  Ever.  And anyone who spent money for a playset of Vaults was dumb and had this coming.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[policehq]

The "spending what you don't have" argument Mark used seems not to work in this context. Unless the other player is going to win during your current turn or during their next turn, you always have a "next turn," even if it's after nineteen of their turns in a row.

-hq

[The Atog Lord]

Flame Vault Stax (or any deck that included Fusillade-Vault) was not a good or viable deck.  Ever.

Sigh. Quad Glacier was good. Had some issues, but it was certainly viable. But then, that's neither here nor there.

[Smmenen]

I want to be absolutely clear:

It isn't that people necessarily disagree with the errata (although I do).

NO ONE is happya bout this decision.  It isn't the decision itself that is so troubling - it's how wizards did it - their time is atrocious and their respect for the players is abymsal.

If you are a serious vintage player, you should read Gottlieb's email with scorn and derision - it was a slap in the face to everyone who cares about Vintage.  He straight up said that he could give two tugs of a dead dogs cock about our format. 

[Moxlotus]

I'm calling bull on they wanted to fix it because it was working in a way differently from it was originally intende to.  Why?  Because if they actually cared about it working the way it was originally intended to they would have made the announcement when FF first came out.  Since the combo was all over the internet they can't claim they didn't know about it then.

And anyone who spent money for a playset of Vaults was dumb and had this coming.

Just wanted to clear that up.
 

Good logic and reasoning skills.  I am seriously in awe.  Your opinion is so enlightening to all that you don't even need to explain anything!!!  You are a vital asset to the TMD community.

[Smmenen]

The errata to Time Vault does not affect Legacy as much as it does Vintage (well, from what I understand.  I'm strictly a Legacy player).  Flame Vault Stax (or any deck that included Fusillade-Vault) was not a good or viable deck.  Ever.  And anyone who spent money for a playset of Vaults was dumb and had this coming.

Just wanted to clear that up.

To say that Flame Vault was not good  is an arguable statement - but to say that it wasn't viable is like saying that grass is not green.  It's just plain wrong and absurd.  You're trying to make a point and massively exaggerating to make that point. 



I can't possibly see a single way that this errata actually restores the integrety of a card that is well known for having no integrity.

IMO, here is what htey should do if they want to restore the integrity of the card: Wipe out all errata on Time Vault, make it as close as possible to the original wording of the card, and the ban it in legacy and restrict it in Vintage.

Let the Twiddle Time Vault combo deck commence!!

[Yare]

NO ONE is happy about this decision. It isn't the decision itself that is so troubling - it's how wizards did it - their time is atrocious and their respect for the players is abymsal.

That's the thing that gets me: I just don't understand why they did this.  It in no way makes the game more "fun."  It didn't need to be fixed in any sense.  Couple that with the "slap in the face" factor and it's just incredible.

Edit: Nobody answered my "toward what e-mail address should I direct my rage?" question.  A specific e-mail addy would be appreciated.

[Cross]

Prety much I agree with all the sensible answer already posted.

On top of that, I'm kinda upset because as a member of the GGs, and someone who helped test the deck I feel like I've wasted a lot of time with this deck, and some other variations we had. Yes belcher/sev can be put in place of FV, but a number of cards, like imperial seal, were put in the deck or cut out of the deck specifically because of FV. I personally never played the deck in tournament, but I helped test it and its variations a lot.

[Smmenen]

Fatalist remix: Hello.  Random internet mini-interview for an article: Smmenen, will you miss Flamevault?
Smmenen: I won't miss it per se, no.  However, I'll miss my trust in wizards and my faith that they do what's right for the players.
Fatalist remix: Thanks for your time.  Better text than I could have hoped for.

[Mr. Type 4]

The letter I sent to Mark Gottlieb:

Dear Mark Gottlieb,
 
        I'm assuming that your inbox is chock full of hate mail, so I thought you'd like to hear something positive.  Let me introduce myself: My name is Paul Mastriano and I am a member of team Meandeck.  I take pride in the fact that I was an original member when we formed the team back in 2002.  Since then I have witnessed a dramatic rise in the popularity of Vintage, the success of the divorcing of the Legacy banned list and the attention that Wizards has paid to eternal formats.  Today I am extremely disappointed.
 
        I read your article about Time Vault, and I have to say that what you said makes it obvious that you are extremely out of touch with the Vintage/Legacy community.  Sadly, it is a person like you who makes the decisions for we, the committed players.
 
        You said, ""This means the Flame Fusillade-Time Vault combo will no longer work. However, this change was not done to kill the combo. In fact, the existence of the combo is rather irrelevant."   
Irrelevant?  This combo has been a part of the Tier 1 Gifts Ungiven deck for months.  It also is the core of two Legacy decks that made Top 64's at seperate Grand Prix's.  It's about as irrelevant as the decimal point is in arithmetic. 
 
      This is also particularly disturbing: "The other issue is the original intent of its untap ability" 
It is extremely arrogant to assume that you know what Richard Garfield's intention was at the genesis of magic.  It is also absurd that the "intention" even matters.  I'm sure that people didn't intend for Yagmoth's Will to be auto-win in Vintage, but that's how Type 1 works, and let's face it, this combo is completely reasonable in comparison.  It is actually reasonable in comparison to all the other ridulous effects that run rampant in those formats. 
 
      Most irritating is that you are errataing this card for no good reasons.  There is no pressure from players or pros that this card is ruining these formats, to the contrary, this is one of the few cards that is keeping it interesting.  If you thought this card was confusing before, by errataing it again you have effectively made it more confusing than ever before.  Now it triggers at the beginning of your upkeep?  That changes the entire nature of the ability.  Previous errata at least tried to preserve the functions of the card, all they wanted to do was make it so you couldn't take infinite turns with voltaic key.  This isn't errata, this card has become so extremely nerfed that this is a BANNING.  You just banned Time Vault because it's "kind of good", and "isn't quite what we intended" but we can still play with Yawgmoth's Will?  Absurd.  Add on top of it that you are EMERGENCY BANNING this card because some random guy asked you a question about it.  Now there's a good way to answer a question!
 
      In conclusion, I did want to thank you.  I wanted to thank you for removing my faith that the people at Wizards of the Coast that handle Vintage and Legacy are interested in what the players think.  When you say "Legacy combos aren't a priority" means that I am not a priority, and that all the other members of the Vintage Community are not a priority. That's a pretty serious group of people to be insulting with arrogant comments like that.  Thank you, Mark Gottlieb, thank you for revealing how little you care about a large group of players, many of which have been playing since the beginning, and are among Magic's biggest fans.  Thanks alot.   
 
                       Sincerely,
 
                            Paul Mastriano
                                 Creator of Type 4

[Imsomniac101]

I don't think anyone's considered another possibility:

That a card in a future set (most likely Dissension since it is likely being printed as we speak) has such a powerful interaction with Time Vault that Wizards in foresight errataed Vault. It is a possibility, though I agree with most players, the timing was atrocious.

If Wizards is reading this right now then, well you should be ashamed.

[wardo]

That's also very sketchy on the legal plan, I wonder how Hasbro deals with that. Martha Stewart for example got in jail for insider trading (accessing privigeled information). What about a Wizard employee who learned about this like a week ago and sold his Vaults ? Or who was aware of Flame Fusillade when Vault costed 50$ ? Don't forget, this company literally prints money, and I didn't think they would ever do such an errata particularly for that reason (which happends to also be the reason why they will never print power).

About Vintage. This format has became way too much trouble to follow. Less tournaments, less support from Wizards, expensive cards and now there's this. I'm tired of this shit.

[freakish777]

Man I was going to buy a Time Vault and quit Slaver finally, then Wizards has to ruin my deck.  Thank you Wizards now I'll never stop playing Slaver.

That is until Slaver is errated to read:

Mindslaver 6

Legendary Artifact

4 T Sacrifice Mindslaver: You control target player’s next turn, play this ability only if you played Mindslaver from your hand, and only if mana from Mishra's Workshop (inclusive) or Mana Drain was not used in paying for it's casting cost.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Wizards EULA's on all booster packs from now on... They essentially just exercised their right of a EULA that no one saw coming (because no one saw the EULA: Wizards owns all Magic: the Gathering cards, and as such can change the text on them at any time they see fit.  Any monetary loss on this is not the EU's but rather Wizard's).

[PucktheCat]

I care very little about this, one way or the other.  This is just the same kind of rules updating that is going on all the time.  It was updates in the rules that destroyed the value of Mirror Universe and caused the value of Illusionary Mask to blow up.  Gottlieb specifically says why the card was banned, and it wasn't because of a degenerate combo or to show their disrespect for the Vintage format.  The card didn't work under the current rules:

A cost can be spending mana, or paying life, or discarding a card, or various other resources you can spend. But a cost can’t really be spending something you don’t have yet. Magic doesn’t have a concept of debt. Look at Chronatog—It was printed with 'skip your next turn' as a cost, but that was changed in Oracle long ago so it’s now part of the ability’s effect. Time Vault should have been changed at the same time

Martha Stewart for example got in jail for insider trading (accessing privigeled information). What about a Wizard employee who learned about this like a week ago and sold his Vaults?

I don't think the SEC issues regulations regarding the CCG market.  I suppose you could always petition your congressman though.

[The Atog Lord]

A cost can be spending mana, or paying life, or discarding a card, or various other resources you can spend. But a cost can’t really be spending something you don’t have yet. Magic doesn’t have a concept of debt. Look at Chronatog—It was printed with 'skip your next turn' as a cost, but that was changed in Oracle long ago so it’s now part of the ability’s effect. Time Vault should have been changed at the same time

Magic does have a concept of debt. When I cast meditate, I get something now in exchange for giving up something that I do not yet have. Even with the newly-worded Chronatog, you give up something that you don't have yet. Warrior's Oath and Final Fortune both make something bad happen in the future in exchange for something good right now. Personal Incarnation isn't giving us any rules problems, but it also works on the concept of good-up-front for bad-in-the-future.

One more thing I'd like to mention. Looking at the original wording, I wonder if it was "intended" to mean that you skip the remainder of the current turn. After all, it says "skip your turn," which seems to indicate that you use it on your upkeep and miss the rest of your turn. Of course I have no idea if this is the "intent" and if it were doubt that they would implement it as such. But I do wonder. If they did errata it this way, it would be even more powerful than it was before.

[Machinus]

If they did errata it this way, it would be even more powerful than it was before.

Quite right. However, I have to think that they are going to just make the card worse, instead of changing the theme completely.

[dicemanx]

A cost can be spending mana, or paying life, or discarding a card, or various other resources you can spend. But a cost can’t really be spending something you don’t have yet. Magic doesn’t have a concept of debt. Look at Chronatog—It was printed with 'skip your next turn' as a cost, but that was changed in Oracle long ago so it’s now part of the ability’s effect. Time Vault should have been changed at the same time

Yes, Time Vault should have changed. Skipping a turn could have been changed from cost to ability effect. This would not alter TV's interaction with FF or Lodestone Myr in the slightest.

Tacking on this triggered ability at the beginning of upkeep, and only being able to do so once a turn is making an absolutely different card.

[Dralock]

I care very little about this, one way or the other.  This is just the same kind of rules updating that is going on all the time.  It was updates in the rules that destroyed the value of Mirror Universe and caused the value of Illusionary Mask to blow up.  Gottlieb specifically says why the card was banned, and it wasn't because of a degenerate combo or to show their disrespect for the Vintage format.  The card didn't work under the current rules:

A cost can be spending mana, or paying life, or discarding a card, or various other resources you can spend. But a cost can’t really be spending something you don’t have yet. Magic doesn’t have a concept of debt. Look at Chronatog—It was printed with 'skip your next turn' as a cost, but that was changed in Oracle long ago so it’s now part of the ability’s effect. Time Vault should have been changed at the same time

Martha Stewart for example got in jail for insider trading (accessing privigeled information). What about a Wizard employee who learned about this like a week ago and sold his Vaults?

I don't think the SEC issues regulations regarding the CCG market.  I suppose you could always petition your congressman though.

So how does Eater of Days work? Or has it been erratad as well?

[The Onyx Phoenix]

What can I say that hasn't already been said by more prolific and achieved vintage players.

Indeed it is not the specifics of the errata, although dubious as it may be, that is the cause of my concern. I have been playing Magic for years but I have only recently had the fortune to be able to participate in a Vintage environment. I do this knowing that my dollar is being invested in something that I will enjoy and that will retain value due to the demand and rarity.  By changing the way Time Vault functions they have unequivocally damaged the first of the two- the demand.  The ability to instantaneously alter the value of, as a previous poster put it, the money they print is unnerving to collectors and players alike.

What is perhaps even more irreparable is the crack that Wizards has caused in the Vintage Community's faith. Their ability to arbitrarily control the game through errata, bannings, and restrictions has obviously been put in question.

It is my hope, however futile, that Wizards takes notice of this community's outrage and attempts to rebuild the faith of the players that are as much a part of the game as those of their cash cow.

[roberts91rom]

There must be a hidden reason for this "banning" of Time Vault. I refuse to believe they care about Vintage, Legacy, their erratas or about what Richard was thinking over 10 years ago. Even if they did, wtf is wrong with them changing it before Flame Fusillade was printed? 8 months after the card has a use, "Oh crap, we gotta change it because (insert strange and confussing reason, most likely money). I agree with the theory that WotC invented a card purely to sell off Time Vaults. They most likely figured that after half a year, the price would hit it's peak. At that point they could sell the Time Vaults for maximum profit. It's not like any other format can even look at Flame Fusillade. Is it just a coincidence that it just "happens" to work ONLY with a card printed exclusively in Alpha, Beta and Unlimited? Watch out MtG players. Should you have any ABU cards that combo with a newly printed card, sell them ASAP. It's all a scam which is disgusting. Maybe somebody can check on E-Bay to see if 2-3 members were buying all of the Time Vaults up for bids. Also notice how nothing like this happened before Hasbro bought Magic. Thats right, MAGIC THE GATHERING HAS SOLD OUT. The only reason this scam works is because it was on a card from ABU. This means it was already rare and hard to find, and now to add insult to injury they make it useful to multiply the value beyond words.

Thanks a lot for selling out you greedy bastards

IF ANOTHER CARD FROM ALPHA BETA OR UNLIMITED SKYROCKET IN PRICE DUE TO AN INTERACTION WITH A CARD FROM A NEW SET, DON'T BUY INTO IT. PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE WILL STOCK UP ON THOSE CARDS AND SELL THEM BACK FOR 4-5 TIMES THE VALUE BEFORE WIZARDS "CARES ABOUT HOW THE CARD WORKS."

[Harkius]

Ignoring, for a moment, all of the trust that was shattered with this ridiculous ass statement (not to mention the fact that they had already answered this question (I think that it was asked shortly after GP Philly, and the answer was different, and no sign of it exists now. Strangely, though, there is a day missing of Ask Wizards from the beginning of December...about two weeks after GP Philly. Interestingly, I am nearly certain that this had existed. My certainty is much higher since the beginning of the answers are the exact same.).

Let's look at one key concept to see if their errata has any justification.

Statement:
One is the cost of this activated ability. A cost can be spending mana, or paying life, or discarding a card, or various other resources you can spend. But a cost can’t really be spending something you don’t have yet. Magic doesn’t have a concept of debt.
Source: Gottlieb

The real problem with this argument? It is blatantly wrong. You either always have a next turn or you never do. Much like Schroedinger's Cat, your next turn is simultaneously guaranteed and never going to happen. This is not an issue of debt. As someone much keener to details than me pointed out, Eater of Days violates this stupid idea. If you lose your next two turns, then you can lose more than one turn ahead. As to the argument that specific cards can invalidate the rules, if one can, then Time Vault can, too. Further, this is not debt that we are talking about, per se. Rather, we are talking about paying a cost. Either you can pay a turn on the promise of a future turn once, or twice, then you can pay as many future turns as you like. Otherwise, the enitre thing is entirely arbitrary.

Say what you will about the arbitrariness of the Judges (and I think that this is legitimate), the rules cannot be arbitrary or the nature of the game will be as irrevocably damaged as the trust of these groups.

If they truly wished to do this, the card should be errata'd as follows:

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Skip a your next turn: Put a Time counter on Time Vault.
T, remove all Time counters from Time Vault: Take an additional turn after this one. This ability may only be palyed once per turn.

Done. Card fixed. This still won't replace the trust from this disasterous decision, though.

I think that several realizations are important. First, this question was no doubt asked many times. This player was not the stimulus for answering. They simply held the question (or reanswered it if I am remembering correctly) until they were ready to make an announcement. They do this all of the time, I am sure. Also, periodic updates to the Oracle happen all of the time. People have already pointed this out, but I thought that it bore repeating, since it is a sore subject for many people. Finally, this ought to have been done at a point of a restriction or a banning, since this nerfs the card's playability, at least for this combo. As such, this is much more in fitting with a major time point, rather than a simple Oracle update. Actions have consequences, and these should be considered along side convenience when a decision is being made about an issue like this.

If I could find Gottlieb's email addy, I would shoot this along. Any ideas, anyone?

Harkius