[Deck] URBana Fish

[AngryPheldagrif]

Daze is not like Oath of Druids for Oath

On a Daze-related note, I have no idea why you would ever run 1 Daze. You run one-ofs of restricted cards, tutor targets, and high powered singletons. Why the heck would you ever run a single Daze? You're never going to see it with any consistency when you want it and most of the time it will come lategame when it's at its worst.

[ix-ir]

I think he's wrapped himself up in mindgame knots - if he runs one Daze and the opponent attempts to play around it then he's getting ahead but if you're never actually Dazing people will not play around it.

[PucktheCat]

Well, you would run one Daze because you want people to worry about it being there and play around it, but you don't want to actually draw it.  Daze is a card where the threat is as dangerous as the execution a lot of the time.  If you play 4 Daze then your opponent's proper play is clear - play around Daze as much as possible.  If you only play a couple though, they are in a no win situation.  If they play around Daze then they get at most one dead card (and probably none) out of it and they effectively lose one of their lands.  If they don't play around it then you get a very efficient counterspell.

That being said, Daze is very good, and deserves to be a 3-4 of in this deck unless something really good can be found to take its place.

[Imsomniac101]

Quote from: Imsomniac101 on May 05, 2006, 02:32:49 AM
I see the direction you've taken the deck into. You made the deck as consistent as possible by adding all the cantrip effects and draw parts while avoiding dead cards. However, I feel that there isn't enough Mana Denial in the deck. That's probably just my style preference though.

Really? what else would you suggest for mana denial? This deck has more mana denial than almost every other build of fish.

Sorry. I've been looking at some of the older builds of UR Fish and my own URB deck (made prior to the release of this one). Although your deck does sport more mana denial than recent builds. They seem to have abandoned the mana denial and counter elements of Fish and replaced them with mostly disruptive beaters (don't really like this as the disruption is not instant speed without vial).

Comments on the deck:

This deck fixes one of the biggest problems with the aggro-control archetype in general; consistency. Once the deck gets going you'll draw around 2-3 cards a turn. However, this concept opens up a few new flaws. Granted they are very minor. First off, your disruption isn't of the "knock your opponent cold" caliber. Isn't obvious when you chain two tempo spells together (most likely when you have the draw going). The new aggro control decks have adopted this approach I think, trading off their consistency for cards like True Believer etc. Second, you've devoted so many slots to cantripping and drawing that you don't have enough disruption. Both flaws don't show up when the deck starts drawing cards like mad.

I'm not entirely sure I make any sense there so I'll summarise:

-the deck is good because it is much more consistent than most aggro-control decks I've seen to date.
-disruption isn't powerful enough, but makes up for this partially by being consistent
-set up is slow, the window of opportunity when other decks go against this one is when you lay Confidant or Ninja.
-Shaman + Chalice is a damn good setup.

As for more mana denial, I think Stifle is a really good card. Another card that I'm thinking of trying is Boomerang. Although the cost is slightly prohibitive, the card is inf. flexible; bounce lands, bounce Oath, bounce Stax parts etc. Again, I'm not sure if it's viable.

what I'm playing currently:
your list +3x Boomerang
            +3x Stifle
            -1x Bouncer
            -1x Rack and Ruin
            -1x Curiosity
            -1x Ninja
            -1x Mox Pearl
            -1x Daze

[Mantis]

Alright have it your way play 4 Daze and discover how people are going to play around your second Daze. I couldn't care less. Daze and Duress are both as good so therefore I'd rather just run 1 Daze and for the rest Duresses. I really can not see the disadvantages of running Daze as a singleton and Duress in the remaining slots. I agree that Daze is pretty strong but it's worthless after the first. I might settle at two as the chances of seeing both in a game are very small, but I am sure that 3 or 4 is not the correct number having so many other options to play in that slot.

Anyway, I guess we should carry on discussing other points and leave this to personal preference. 

Good job with the split! Congratulations.

[Hydra]

Alright have it your way play 4 Daze and discover how people are going to play around your second Daze.

Ahh...  Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't that going to be the point?  If you only run 2 or possibly 3, you're not guaranteed by any means to see multiples in the early game, when they matter.  Even if you draw the second Daze and your opponent actively tries to play around it, your opponent is going to be walking right into your mana denial strategy.  Mana bases are tight in type 1, if your opponent tries to play around Daze, you could very well score yourself a free Time Walk because of it.

In the latest lists Eric has cut the Daze number to 3, which I personally feel is a good number.  Adding in more REB/Pyroblast/Duress would start taxing the mana base, while the deck's mana denial strategy is pretty much tailor-made to force people to either walk right into Dazes or give you essentially free turns.  Even if they pay the 1, you just forced them to possibly stunt their own development by limiting how many other spells they could play in a turn. 

This is Fish, and tempo wins you games.  Daze buys you a lot of tempo without working over your own mana base like other cards would in this slot.  Adding more Duresses or REBs doesn't really improve any matchups for you, while the added strain on your mana base would make your matchup with other decks that go for a mana denial strategy worse.

[Mantis]

But Fish still loses to Tinker and Y. Will, which people will play with care and will have the 1 additional mana open. Daze doesn't buy you an awful lot of tempo as you will have to return an Island to your hand. But like I said, I've weakened my point about Daze a bit as the general opinion is that there should be >1 Daze. Still I would not run more than 2, the chances of drawing 2 out of 2 Dazes in one game are very small. Let alone the chances that the whole mindgame thing becomes relevant.

A different point, is R&R maindeck really necessary? Sure it's a nice Tutor target but outside the Workshop matchup I see little use for it. You have 4 Mox Monkeys and 3/4 Chalices so your opponent should never have access to artifact mana anyway. Besides, from my play experience with the deck I can say I have never had any trouble defeating Stax unless they have the nuts hand. As soon as you can reach 2R you should probably be winning.

Also, what is the general opinion on the single Curiosity? I cut it already as when I have a Ninja or a Bob I should be winning and I don't want to attach them to other creatures because I can't Ninjitsu them any longer. I've also just found it unnecessary.

@ Insomniac, I really disagree with cutting a Mox and cutting a Ninja as they really are part of the backbone of this deck.
Stifle looks cute but Boomerang should not be in here. You don't want to rely on double colored spells, as it will weaken your Moxen. I've already experienced this with testing Wretch. Double colored spells don't belong here unless they are really gamebreaking.

Oh, sorry for the could/couldn't care less, I guess I've not been paying attention at school.

[Sean Ryan]

A single Swamp and a 3-4 Duress would be savage.

It's not that I'm against Daze in principle like some of you seem to be.  It has played a role in previous Fish decks with some success.  It's just that Duress will usually serve you much better.  It also gives you another strong 1st turn play when you don't draw any moxen.  So now you can lead with: Shaman, Brainstorm, or Duress.

 Stiffle is definitely an option as decks are becoming more reliant on Fetchlands, but what do you cut?

I don't like the M.Tutor/ RnR plan either but it seems like game one against Stax would be really scary without them.

Sean

[ErkBek]

Again, 4 duress = bad times for the mana base. I don't think the deck wants to play a basic swamp, I'd rather have a basic mountain since your red cards are good vs. stax.

I'm actually considering cutting the MT/R&R plan. My meta has shifted so much since I played IT. It was all 50-60% stax, now its like 10% stax.

[M.Solymossy]

Hmm Eric, could that be because even before IT was public, we had 5 or 6 people playing it?

[Pitlord]

I definitly think that stifle is amazing in fish. At first my comment on it got overlooked because of daze, but I think that now people have come off the daze issue, the meta slots need to be looked at. Stifle is amazing, and hits stax, the same deck R&R hits, plus just about everything else in the format. Stifle is a catch all thing, and think three should be added losing 1 daze, 1 curiosity, and 1 R&R, possibly 2 if you play them.

[Imsomniac101]

@kobefan:

Holy Crap! I don't know how I missed it before, but you're deck doesn't play Brainstorm. What made you dismiss the card? Is it because you already have so much draw?

Also I noticed that the deck is slooooow if you fan open a hand with no moxen. Are these hands auto mulligans?

@ Insomniac, I really disagree with cutting a Mox and cutting a Ninja as they really are part of the backbone of this deck.
Stifle looks cute but Boomerang should not be in here. You don't want to rely on double colored spells, as it will weaken your Moxen. I've already experienced this with testing Wretch. Double colored spells don't belong here unless they are really gamebreaking.

Like I said before, it's just an experiment. Although this adds more to the already chocca-block 2cc range. Stifle is dual-purpose, it hit's opponent's fetches and protects your own mana base at the same time. After adding Stifle, I'm really tempted to play Academy in this deck.

[Pitlord]

Brainstorm isn't really that great in any fish, IMO. It doesn't dig for any real bombs, because most fish decks can't "oops I win". It does have synergy with fetchlands, but I think that the deck has enough of a draw engine as long as it can get rolling. Brainstorm doesn't really help get that engine going, and that makes it kind of weak.

Also, this deck is pretty slow without any moxes. This is why Kobefan built this with all 5 and no null rod. I wouldn't say the hands without moxes are auto mulls, but should definitly be looked at closely.

Also, stifle is amazing, but boomerang is color heavy. UU is hard, and doesn't do all that much against a lot of decks. Especially late game, boomerang becomes a crappy, hard to cast temporary, 1 shot removal. Stifle hits everything in the format, and should be considered in every fish deck.

As for Academy, it stretches the mana base in an odd direction. A bad, odd direction. Academy gets wasted out, and doesn't help the game all that much. All academy does is make good hands with lots of moxes better, and hands without them suck even more. Academy in a deck that can't tutor for it or needs asstons of mana is always a win-more when you are ahead and a lose-more when you aren't.

[magus888]

Don't forget Brainstorm is great with Confidant!

[Pitlord]

Brainstorm has OK synergy with dark confidant, but I think sensei's top is better than brainstorm. It doesn't need specific mana colors, and can be used every turn. Brainstorm is a one shot effect that controls one confidant draw.

Besides, I think the whole issue is moot since this deck doesn't really need more of a draw engine. If it can get the draw engine it has running, it gets a lot of cards. However, whe it doesn't, the deck tends to flop around and die. Adding even more draw, which will probably be used to get mroe draw, is not a good way for a fish deck to win. I would much rather have more spells that directly affect the game than don't in any deck that can't "go broken".

[Mantis]

If you get Academy up and running producing more than 1 mana you must already have 2 Moxen or Chalice + Mox meaning that if the Academy were another land you would have at least 2 mana available as well which should be enough for this deck to get started with. I don't think Academy adds much to this deck and just makes it more vulnerable as you just don't need an awful lot of mana.

[That0neguy]

Has tinker collosus been considered here with all of the moxen and chalices?  When I ran it back in UGw fish I always loved it.  I think I ran a few more artifacts but as mentioned sennsis top would have nice synergy with the deck.  You also have bouncers to pitch the collosus to.  I always liked it because it gave the deck a "opps" card that could be tutored for.  Can the deck support this off the current artifact base?  or would it require to many of them tempo boosting cards to be cut to add in more artifacts?  Also Sensi seems like it would be bad temp considering your spending a mana every turn to look at the up cardsw without actually drawing anything or advancing the board.

[Imsomniac101]

If you get Academy up and running producing more than 1 mana you must already have 2 Moxen or Chalice + Mox meaning that if the Academy were another land you would have at least 2 mana available as well which should be enough for this deck to get started with. I don't think Academy adds much to this deck and just makes it more vulnerable as you just don't need an awful lot of mana.

Wow. That is an excellent argument against Academy. Win more, Lose more.

Brainstorm has OK synergy with dark confidant, but I think sensei's top is better than brainstorm. It doesn't need specific mana colors, and can be used every turn. Brainstorm is a one shot effect that controls one confidant draw.

Besides, I think the whole issue is moot since this deck doesn't really need more of a draw engine. If it can get the draw engine it has running, it gets a lot of cards. However, whe it doesn't, the deck tends to flop around and die. Adding even more draw, which will probably be used to get mroe draw, is not a good way for a fish deck to win. I would much rather have more spells that directly affect the game than don't in any deck that can't "go broken".

You shouldn't need to play anything to filter Confidant's draws. Bstorm digs for Chalice, although this deck only plays 3. I'm really interested to here kobefan's opinions on the matter though.

Also, shouldn't Mana Crypt replace one of the off-colour moxen? As it produces 1 more mana. I know that you take enough damage from Confidants, but with 4x Shamans you should be able to kill it when you want to.

[Pitlord]

I agree that you don't treally need to filter the draws, I was just addressing the point magus888 brought up. I still don't think that brainstorm would be all that powerful. It does dig, but it seems slow in any fish deck. Chalice could probably become a 4-of, but I don't think it is neccessary. Especially with Mox Monkey, artifact mana hate is coming down fast. All you need to deny mana to your opponent is 1 chalice or 1 monkey. With 7 of those in the deck, giddign for one usually isn't neccessary. I used to play only 3 chalice in WTF, and liked it a lot more than all 4, because setting a chalice at 2 is practically suicide, and setting it at 3 is nearly impossible.

As for mana crypt VS. off-color, I feel the off color is better. Mana crypt does produce 2, but most things in the deck cost 2, with only 1 colored mana. A draw of crypt, volcanic, monkey, chalice at 1 is cute, but very rare. Overall, I think that the damage done by crypt without destroying it yourself is too much to justify it's limited-use inclusion.

[ErkBek]

I used to run academy and mana crypt before I added black. They were marginal at the time and were cut for extra on-color sources. I've had a number of close games due to dark confidant damage so mana crypt damage could really add up.

On my tournament report thread Bob Yu mentioned BS as well. I've been considering running a few in place of some of my disruption since more draw results in more disruption seen and better mana stablity. Something like

-2 Duress
+2 Brainstorm

This idea seems pretty decent, at least worth testing. I'm kinda doubting though that I'll get around to it unfortunately, since my testing partner (Roxaz) moved home for the summer, while I'm taking 9 credit hours of summer courses.

-Eric

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Man, this deck is insane. I threw it together on MWS and gave it a whirl. I went with

-2 Duress
-1 Mana Leak
+3 Brainstorm (Like Eric suggested)

and it was pretty savage. I didn't miss the duresses at all, and the brainstorms were savage. They up the blue count, dig you into chalice/FoW on turn, and acts like a recall in the late game. It's amazing how good they are in fish, ESPECIALLY with 7 fetches. There are more conditional cards in fish than in any other deck, and brainstorm + fetch ensures you get card quality. I'm considering adding the 4th BS.

Good job on the deck Eric, this deck is on my radar.

-Bob

[Evenpence]

My meta has shifted so much since I played IT. It was all 50-60% stax, now its like 10% stax.

Same here - same everywhere.  Stax is dying.

[Siral]

My Teammate played a modified version of URBan Fish in a tournament.

He finished in Top4 losing from gift in third game because he don't want to mulligan a bad starting hand (he was tired and wanna come back at home)

The deck have a good matchup with all the top decks of the format, but have great problems vs other aggro and aggro control decks.

Artifact and control matchup is not so hard to win, combo is a bit harder

Night of the Souls Betrayal destroy this deck

Our Strategy vs other aggro and aggro control decks is siding in Vedalken Shackles in place of Null Rod (preferred to chalice of the void)

[dicemanx]

My meta has shifted so much since I played IT. It was all 50-60% stax, now its like 10% stax.

Same here - same everywhere.  Stax is dying.

It's in hibernation, lying in wait for the right opportunity to come back, or until an appropriate build is found to allow it to cmpete in today's meta(s).

[Rittler]

Our Strategy vs other aggro and aggro control decks is siding in Vedalken Shackles in place of Null Rod (preferred to chalice of the void)

Wouldn't Old Man from the Sea or Seasinger be somewhat better than the Shackles since those don't require that much mana?

[Siral]

Have u ever tried to take control of a wild mongrel with old man of the sea?

However Old man of the sea and seasinger are under Red Elemental Blast and other creature removal so i prefer Vedalken

[ErkBek]

Have u ever tried to take control of a wild mongrel with old man of the sea?

However Old man of the sea and seasinger are under Red Elemental Blast and other creature removal so i prefer Vedalken

Many fish players (including me) bring in artifact removal either in the form of rack and ruin or disenchant. UW builds have STP while you have Reb to deal with creatures (old man). I'd probably rather have old man of the sea, largely because it is less mana intensive. Thanks for the recommendation for this matchup, it did need work.

For now I'm sticking with my SB plan in fish mirrors (largely since I devote alot of space to graveyard hate for ichorid and storm combo)

+3 Reb, +3 Rack and Ruin, +3 Fire/Ice
-3 Chalice, -2 Duress, -1 MT, -2 Remand/mana leak, -1 daze (this depends on the build, obv)   

In a meta with goblins and other aggro, you may need more than just those cards.

[Pitlord]

How useful is Rack and Ruin in the mirror? All I can see it doing is taking out a mox or two, possibly an aether vial or jitte. Vial is a geniune concern, but moxes aren't that big of a deal, and jitte can just be legend ruled. Jitte is a great card for the mirror, because it can take out multiple guys on the other side for next to nothing.

Also, we know that darkblast pwns this, so why not bring some in the board for the mirror? You can support the mana cost, and the dredge thanks to confidant. Killing basically anything in the opposing deck repadly seems pretty decent to me.

[Moxlotus]

Racks deal with Null Rods and Mishra's Factories.  They are very useful.

[kirdape3]

Less useful than Viashino Heretic, who blocks all their team at the same cost and is reusable.