[Deck] URBana Fish

[Yare]

Less useful than Viashino Heretic, who blocks all their team at the same cost and is reusable.

Viashino Heretic isn't an instant.

[Moxlotus]

Heretics are bad for the same reason Vandal was cut--you could play it, but then they would just waste your volcanic and you have a stupid guy that doesn't do anything.  Also, who's gonna animate a Factory when you have a Heretic in play?

[Imsomniac101]

In a meta with goblins and other aggro, you may need more than just those cards.

In a meta like that, I'd cut Ninja and add Lavamancers.

Heretics are bad for the same reason Vandal was cut--you could play it, but then they would just waste your volcanic and you have a stupid guy that doesn't do anything.  Also, who's gonna animate a Factory when you have a Heretic in play?

Well, I don't know your actual reasons for cutting those two, but I'd venture to say that they were bad for different reasons. Vandal is subpar against Creature decks, because it needs to get through unblocked. Heretics are bad because their extremely vulnerable to the cards that aggro decks will bring more of against you -----> creature removal. Plus tapping out to play a card that does nothing until next turn is a sure fire way to lose the tempo game.

[kirdape3]

I actually want them shooting at my Heretics.  The cards that they're liable to bring in are actually Umezawa's Jittes, and possibly extra Swords to Plowshares.  Heretic's the only card in your deck that can handle the pointy stick, and it also survives Pyroclasm.  It's certainly better than Rack and Ruin if my dumbshit opponent still manages to get off a desperation Tinker for Darksteel Colossus.

As for the Wasteland issue, you probably will have access to more fetchlands to go and get your red mana online.  If they keep shooting at those, they're not shooting at black mana to cast Confidant - and you have more mana than they do Wastelands.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

    I like your deck, I have been trying B/U fish for quite some time, to no avail, and the addition of red for both better mana disruption and sb options seems very logical.  I am scared to know what strains this 3 color combination puts on your mana base, especially with your 5 strip affects and 2 off color moxen.  I am wondering why it is that you are not playing Loa, i have allways found having Confidant and Standstill/Ninja to give you 7 cards fairly frequently, but then again you are playing 3 colors and mana is tight.

    I am very uneasy about Waterfront bouncer, i suppose it all comes down to you meta game, but in my recent playtesting it hasn't helped me at all against stax(my bad matchup), and is very limited against CS, gifts, ect., but those are generally good matchups anyway.  Although for all its short comings against prison and combo/control, it is a MVP against Oath...and dragon-if you can find someone playing it.

    I am currently trying Arcane Denial in the Remand slot.  Partly because it has been my pet recently and I've been trying to get it to work in something-but to no avail, and also because it usually gains the same amount of tempo as Remand.  I say this because it usually gets rid of a card permanently, where as Remand will simply make use of the tempo and delay your opponent's play for as long as possible, usually no more than one turn.  I also like it because your opponent doesn't get the cards untill the next upkeep so you can really screw with them attempting to go off, if they are playing combo of any kind.  I am curious to know what all of you think about this card, or rather why remand would be better than it. 

    Anyone saying that Duress is good here is a dork in my opinion.  If your going to play FoW, which is the best choice, playing Duress seriously screws with your number of blue cards.  I generly keep 2 to 3 Duress in the SB for grim long and other combo matches where FoW  and Chalice arn't enough.  But then again you guys may be running alot more blue cards then i, or you have cut Fow, or you are plain lucky.

    Daze in this deck is usually a good counter both early and mid game because of your Gorrilas and CotV's, so those should stay a 4 of. 

    Well thats it for me, hopefully I didn't make a complete fool of myself through spelling errors or my Arcane Denial musings, so i would appreciate it if you guys don't flame me too bad.

[zeus-online]

How can you even suggest arcane denial?

Mana leak kills the spell just as well, and dosnt give them card-advantage.


/Zeus

[ErkBek]

I am very uneasy about Waterfront bouncer, i suppose it all comes down to you meta game, but in my recent playtesting it hasn't helped me at all against stax(my bad matchup), and is very limited against CS, gifts, ect., but those are generally good matchups anyway.  Although for all its short comings against prison and combo/control, it is a MVP against Oath...and dragon-if you can find someone playing it.

I am currently trying Arcane Denial in the Remand slot.  Partly because it has been my pet recently and I've been trying to get it to work in something-but to no avail, and also because it usually gains the same amount of tempo as Remand.  I say this because it usually gets rid of a card permanently, where as Remand will simply make use of the tempo and delay your opponent's play for as long as possible, usually no more than one turn.  I also like it because your opponent doesn't get the cards untill the next upkeep so you can really screw with them attempting to go off, if they are playing combo of any kind.  I am curious to know what all of you think about this card, or rather why remand would be better than it.......

Anyone saying that Duress is good here is a dork in my opinion.  If your going to play FoW, which is the best choice, playing Duress seriously screws with your number of blue cards.  I generly keep 2 to 3 Duress in the SB for grim long and other combo matches where FoW  and Chalice arn't enough.  But then again you guys may be running alot more blue cards then i, or you have cut Fow, or you are plain lucky.

First off, thanks for the comments about the deck. I understand were you are coming from in much of your post, however I don't agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Library is not in the deck for a number of reasons. I'd like to ask would you ever like to draw this card? would you ever like to see it in your opening hand? I'd probably say no for both of these questions. This deck really tries to drop a turn 1 and turn 2 threat every game. It never wants to be in the position of a control deck, it is a tempo deck. The mana base is also very tight already. I would not cut an off color mox for LOA, so I would be cutting a threat or tempo spell for it. Lastly, I overlooked its synergy with bob and ninja largely because if you are already drawing 2 cards a turn then you are already in business, a 3rd card probably isn't gonna be game breaking, since you are probably already winning at this point. With that said, I've never tested LOA, and I never will. If anybody else wants to test it feel free to (post your results too).

Waterfront Bouncer is awesome, no doubt about it. I think on paper he looks bad, but you have to play him to understand how good he is. Against Gifts he bounces DSC, oath he bounces angels, CS he bounces large men and welders, dredge he bounces ghouls and ichorid, and lastly he gives you a fighting shot vs. all aggro decks. I'm not sure how you concluded that he isn't very good vs. gifts, but you must be mistaken. Bouncer makes them shift to the tendrils route, which this deck prevents from happening. I'm sick of commenting on the Bouncer slot, I will direct all future comments about cutting him to this post.

Arcane Denial is bad. Sorry, but its true. Remand is often times time walk which is good. I still think remand is better than leak in the deck.

You are right about the duress slot. That's not what this deck aims to do. Daze is a really good card in the deck, but 4 might be to many, I'm still undecided. 3 seems like the right number. The only problem is fitting Duress on the SB, which is already very tight. What does your SB look like? If you do run duress on the SB, bring it in vs. oath.

[MaxxMatt]

(24)
6 Fetchland
5 Strip
5 Moxen
3 Volcanic
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Lotus
(15)
4 Ninja of the deep hours
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Waterfront Bouncer
(6)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestra Recall
1 Time Walk
(15)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Remand
3 Null Rod
1 Misdirection
Side (15)
4 Grim Lavamancers
3 Viashino Heretics
3 Planar Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack & Ruin

I tried and played a bit this list of UBR-Fish.
I thought hard about what should be added and what can be played to stop Stackers' opponents from screwing you out with ease and BlueBasedControlDecks from stealing you games with Pyroclasms and Y.Wills

I noticed that the builds proposed until now, cannot afford to "maximize" the chances of playing a first turn CotV for 0, due to the lack of Brainstorms.
I opted to play the full set of CotVs and Brainstorms to see 3 additional cards during my first turn of the game,if needed.

With the same goal and thanks to Brainstorm, I can try to maximize the chances of playing an additional mana font during my first turn, without relying only on my initial 7 cards.

Same arguments can be done when searching for additional critters or protections.

From a "standard maindeck", I lost a couple of random cards and Dazes in this process, but I added Remands and Mis-D, to be better equipped to deal with opponents' first turn threats.




From my tests, this deck perform really well when he had those two typical starting hands.

(a) Land, Brainstorm-->CotV plus Second Turn Mana for additional Threats. You can have both FoW or Mis-D in your hand.
(b) Land, Mox, CotV/Rod/Critter with cc2/Shaman/Remands. You can have both FoW or Mis-D in your hand.

If you have the wrong cards, I would usually mulligan into a new hand ( Counters and Nothing to protects or a pletora of critters without no other cards ).

(b) hands, usually are stronger, from my point of view, because you can play tricky games, thanks to the usage of some of the new maindecked cards. You are going to play any turn with the goal of not letting the opponent control the same board of the turn before.

Remand things into his hand only if you are able to prevent him from playing it again
Use CotV for 0 and 1 aggressively and leave your Shamans in your hand the needed time to let them enter into play when "somthing" have to be eaten.
Force opponent to think about your weenies instead of dealing with your long term plan.
Remands your own spells to your hand, when they are counterd, fizzling their own spells and drawing cards.

I usually can play around hate thanks to CotVs while I can buy time thanks to Remands and FoWs.
Remanding your own spells to your hand during a counter war, is really resources consuming for the opponent and the luck of playing with a larger mana base, compared to the one commonly played by the other fish build, would help you play twice the same spell.

Brainstorms give you flexibility and a good cards' selections, especially when you are in a hurry because of opponents' threats.

Have him resolved a deadly FatMan? I have to search for Bouncers soon!
Have he played a pletora of artifacts that I cannot afford to eat in a single turn with my Shaman? I have to search for Rods/CotVs as soon as I can.
Are we involved in early counter wars? I have to Brainstorm into more gas.

Critters have been really well choosen.
8 Drawers
7-8 Board Control.

While Darkblast would be iterated really un-frequently because of your good denial on their U.Sea, you have to worry about their Pyroclasms.
The best strategy that I have been able to assemble against them, consist on playing proactively as soon as you can and attacking his future moves.

CotVs and Rods, Shamans and Remands are key spells when you have to "munch" his board, turn after turn, without leaving him the opportunity to reach 4 or 5 mana on table.

Maxx

[Moxlotus]

@above decklist

Don't you feel you're overhating moxen with 4 Monkeys, 4 Chalice, and 3 Rods?  That seems way too redundant and doesn't give the deck enough flexibility.

[Cross]

    Anyone saying that Duress is good here is a dork in my opinion.  If your going to play FoW, which is the best choice, playing Duress seriously screws with your number of blue cards.  I generly keep 2 to 3 Duress in the SB for grim long and other combo matches where FoW  and Chalice arn't enough.  But then again you guys may be running alot more blue cards then i, or you have cut Fow, or you are plain lucky.
 

This is not true by any stretch, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the format. First of all, playing duress does not make force of will useless, in fact it makes it better because you have something to back your forces up with. It changes your blue versus non blue count by only a fraction of the overall deck, which is what really matters.

Secondly unless you are playing in crazy land, the metagame has shifted such that duress is insanely good. It’s good against every control deck in the format, and even good against fish decks (to nab their swords) and stax decks (to nab lock pieces)

Again, 4 duress = bad times for the mana base. I don't think the deck wants to play a basic swamp, I'd rather have a basic mountain since your red cards are good vs. stax.

I'm actually considering cutting the MT/R&R plan. My meta has shifted so much since I played IT. It was all 50-60% stax, now its like 10% stax.

I can’t see how you could say this, especially as someone who made IT popular. A single swamp is by no means going to screw up your mana base, especially when you already run seven fetches. You even say yourself that no one plays stax in your meta, so all the more reason to run duress and the basic swamp, not that it would hurt the stax match up, if anything it would help. Duress is really strong against stax, it is underground sea that makes it weak. If you run the basic swamp this is basically a non-issue, and a great way to get your confidants down and keep your mana base bulletproof.

You are right about the duress slot. That's not what this deck aims to do.
 

I think it should be what it aims to do. Mana denial and creature removal is no longer an efficient way to play fish. Combo decks are not going to care if you kill their moxen, they can just play yawgs and replay them and combo you out. On top of this wastelands are becoming more and more irrelevant. Again, look at your own build of IT. Fetches and basics make wastelands look stupid. Cards like duress and confidant are exactly what fish decks should aim to do, as combo decks have adjusted to other game plans.

[Moxlotus]

On top of this wastelands are becoming more and more irrelevant. Again, look at your own build of IT. Fetches and basics make wastelands look stupid. 

Even though wastes are becoming more irrelevant to the meta as a whole, it doesn't mean this deck needs to still be vulnerable to them when they do show up.  A single waste can fuck the deck over pretty good.  It doesn't need to be more reliant on non-basic lands than it already is.

[MaxxMatt]

@MoxLotus

I'm sure anyone noticed CotV+Shaman or Rods+Shamans aren't enough to stop or block opponent's deck too often from developing his own mana base.

It is really unpleasant when you hit your hate cards even a single turn slower than needed.
I'm confidant about being able to play and win every game I can afford to reduce oppponent's mana base to a couple of basic islands.

They have to feel the constrains that my deck is going to impose to him and those tools are usually oriented towards killing his own manabase.

I'm sure that a lot of people would not pose enough attention to the presence of a couple of Moxen or other artifacts when Rods or CotV are in play.
They still remain a couple of latent threats
They can help opponent to resolve Tinker.
They can give him more gas when they Rebuild away all the artifacts in play.
They can even pump T.Academy  more than needed.

While Shamans, Rods and CotVs can overlap their own role, I feel that this overlapping is crucial against any good deck.
Fish have always been a coral and sinergic deck, without too many bombs that can be able to change the result of a game in a single move.

Let me think that this good defence strategy is the starting point that can avoid you from being killed by the same Brokeness your deck is not equipped to answer with ease.

If I can afford to optimize Stripmine or something else better than Wastelands, I suppose that the deck can play his denial role even better.

MaxxMatt

[Mantis]

I'm sure that a lot of people would not pose enough attention to the presence of a couple of Moxen or other artifacts when Rods or CotV are in play.
They still remain a couple of latent threats
They can help opponent to resolve Tinker.
They can give him more gas when they Rebuild away all the artifacts in play.
They can even pump T.Academy more than needed.

So the real question is, how is Null Rod going to help you in this respect? The deck already runs Mox Monkeys and Chalices to stop everything you named on that list. Null Rods are just overlapping the purposes of Monkey and Chalice and therefore are dead most of the time.

[MaxxMatt]

@Hypothesis.
You are usually dealing with good decks, aren't you?
@Thesis
You have to grab your best answers soon.
Statistical counts state that maindecking Shaman+Rods+CotV let you have at least one of them in your first 10 cards more frequently than maindecking only two of them.

I'm sure that this argument is really simple to understand.
On the other hand, I can articulate a bit more why I support that overlapping strategy rather than choosing to play with other spells in their spots.

All the good T1 decks break some magic the gathering's rules.
Abusing of Artifacts' mana let them play with both hypercosted spells and risky mana bases.
Thus, with my strategy they are locked on a singleland every turn.
If the opponent is unlucky and he have to throw into play some duals, your Wastelands can get rid of them.

On the other hand, T1 is the format with more "swings" during a single turn.
The Fish strategy would usually stop early threats, but all the good decks are well equipped to recover during the mid-game.
Playing with Shamans+Rods+CotV would usually cover that possible "midgame" recovering.

If he had ONLY 3 or 4 lands in play, you are going to win.
You cannot try to stop them with only Shamans+CotV because they can use the mana fonts available at cc1 even one shot and try to win in that single turn
You cannot try to stop them with Shamans+Rods alone, because they can kill your monkeys and then leave the crucial Artifacts on board waiting the last turn for their win
You cannot try to stop them with CotVs+Rods because they can play a slow game, resolving the cc1 ones and holding into hand the 0cc ones, focusing only into Rebuilding back your hate after their own 4 lands drop ( avoiding Dazes too ).

CotVs are the quicker Proactive Answer available for their accelerations
Rords are the best way to delay their victories
Shamans are the only way to avoid their recovering.

I feel that there aren't much more talks to do on this issue.
The only thing that remain to do is to play my deck and test that it results better equipped to deal with Tier1s.

MaxxMatt

PS. I remember about an UW-Chalice-Rods build that appeared somewhere on StarcityGames' article and that was discussed here,. He had CotVs plus Rods plus Kataki . It have been accepted as the "most hating deck" among the aggrocontrol ones. That deck crushed Tier1s and I'm, now, proposing you a similar way to deal with them.
Why Shamans and CotVs and Rods cannot be categorized in the same ( good ) way?

[Moxlotus]

Statistical counts state that maindecking Shaman+Rods+CotV let you have at least one of them in your first 10 cards more frequently than maindecking only two of them.
 

Of course, then after you get one of them you have more cards in the deck that suck to draw.  Since you are fish every draw is crucial because you need to win before the more powerful deck, the opponent's, can recover.  You just increase your chances of drawing crap (Rod) later instead of cards that actually do something.  More often than not you will have a Chalice or Monkey down turn 1 anyways.  There is such a thing as too much hate.  Fish needs to be flexible also and by focusing on one strategy too much you lose its flexibility.  The cards Rod is replacing is Daze--another card that works with the mana denial element of the deck only it isn't useless when you already have a Chalice or Monkey on the board.  It is more flexible.

[Duncan]

Can you post an updated decklist so that we are talking about the same deck. I see posts from people removing cards of which i didnt even know they were in.

[MaxxMatt]

-1 Brainstorm
-1 Misdirection
-1 Off color Mox
+3 Daze.

Is it enough flexible?



@About "Drawing Crap..."
I used Rods and CotVs extensively in enough decks to be sure of to things:
1) Seeing them too late is crappier than drawing into them
2) Shamans & CotV aren't uselesse in multiples, while Rods can be considered more game ending than them. On the other hand, I cannot think about playing without them. Tihink about playing one of the usually played good and accelerated decks. If that opponent would counter your only CotV for 0 he can easily play all the game with his mana available. If he have to deal with both Rods and CotVs, he ( maybe ) cannot afford to stop them all. He would play with useless artifacts in play, the same artifacts that your Shaman would easily eat during his EoT.

Think about playing against an opponent that would let you resolve your CotV for 0.
Maybe he is holding a Sol Ring or a Mana Vault.
He can play M.Scrolls, TFKs, Intuitions, Brainstorm into removals, and so on.
Shaman would play a crucial role not so fast, because of the 3 mana required to eat them.
Without a "double" threat configuration, you are going to leave to your opponents an open windows to abuse while you can simply play against an harmless one.

It is really intriguing your use of my argument to concude an opposite statement:

Since you are fish, every draw is crucial. You need èi]to win[/i] before the more powerful deck, the opponent's, can recover

My logical point of view about this argument is:
---You are going  to win ( even soon ) if you reduce your opponents to few and not gamebreaking moves.
---You are going to reduce opponents to few and useless moves when he cannot afford to all his powerfull resources soon during the game
--- In order to acquire this strong "plateau", you have to search and find your best tools soon and in multiples.

In summary: Choose which is the best kill and abuse of it.

MaxxMatt

PS. I'm talking about being able to win quikly, because the clock of this deck isn't so "gay", as anyone could easily see.
A quick and strong lock coupled with 2/* creatures is a good way to win.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

@ Kobefan,
As far as the library issue goes, I'll be honest I have won more games off Dark Confidant/Loa then you could imagine, but I may have either allready been winning those games or I am just lucky and draw a LoA early after I drop a couple threats.  I don't know what it is, but I'll test some more without the Loa, as soon as I get home (I'm on vacation right now).

My biggest Problem with bouncer is the choice to attack or stay untapped just in case of Gifts going DSC/Recoup/Time walk. 

before i go on, I am going to post the list that first got me looking a U/B fish:
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gilded Drake
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Withered Wretch

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Force Of Will

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Old Man Of The Sea
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Back To Basics
4 Energy Flux
3 Kira, Great Glass-spinner

I tested this list for a while, changeing the Consult to MisD almost immediatly.  I will say right off the bat though, this is a metagame deck, completely and utterly, it usually beats CS, Gifts, Oath, Tog, and just about anything else that is remotely control.  It is gennerally bad against Stax and aggro decks, but it has a surprisingly fair matchup against Workshop Agrro (even though, I haven't really seen enough workshop aggro decks in recent months to warrent this statistic actually meaning anything).

Now here is my newest version of U/B/x(red in this case) that i am testing:
RUB[age]
4 Gorrila Shamen
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Gilded Drake

4 Fow
4 Daze

2 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoeing Truth
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vamperic Tutor

1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
3 Duress
3 Red Elemantal Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Gilded Drake
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Darkblast
3 Planer Void

    You asked for a list, so here you go, ill update my cards choices as soon as I can, but I have to go catch a plane.

[ErkBek]

@ MaxxMatt:  First off, I think your list is terrible. Your logic of adding null rod to this deck is very flawed. Null rod does not fill in holes in matchups and it exploits the unfavorable stax matchup. I'm not sure why you fear sol ring netting an opponent mana one for a whole turn when you've got a monkey on the board, maybe if you ran daze you could neutralize that better.

This deck and the UW fish deck you are talking about are very different. This deck plays a large amount of diverse threats at the cost of a faster clock. The UW lions list also doesn't run off-color moxen, creating less dead draws. The UW list also has meddling mage, to disrupt the opponent.

Adding more mana denial at the cost of tempo cards, doesn't necessarily help the deck.

@ Cross:  I would never want a basic swamp in the deck. Swamp -> duress isn't good unless you are playing combo. I'd much rather have a basic mountain for the stax matchup. I'd like to see you propose a better manabase.

@ NWI_Team_Zilla:  Where are you tempo cards? Tutors are awful tempo unless you've got mana for time walk. I also think you list is begging for more moxen. You've got a lot of 1's and 2's in the colorless cost of cards.

@ MisD in the deck:  Another free counterspell is nice, however I think Daze is better since it doesn't require the blue card pitch, as well as only being 2 life when flipped by bob (this does matter).

I'm sorry if this came off as a flame at you guys. I'm sick of people saying this, this, and this are wrong with no testing, then making supposed improvements with bad logic.

@ Current list: I haven't really played fish since I split. I'd play that list -2 Duress +2 BS. The SB is gold, don't change that. Here's it is for reference

URBana fish
Mana 25
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Creatures 15
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant

Draw/stuff 5
1 Ancestral
2 BS
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical

Disruption 15
4 FoW
3 Chalice
3 Daze
2/3 Remand
1/0 Mana Leak
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack and Ruin

SB 15
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Reb
2 Planar Void
3 Fire/Ice
2 Arcane Lab
2 Shred memory

[AJFirst]

That's a really good list. I think it's the most optimal build yet, and as you can tell from my blubbering, I'm a big fan. Are you coming out to Pastimes this week? If so, is that what you'll be playing?

The only suggestions I would make would be out of the board. Shred Memory just isn't as good as Planar Void in most cases, and would play more of them. Also, Rack and Ruins will be wasted all day due to the lack of stax, it would only be brought in against Workshop Agro (which there is very little of) and ICBM Oath with Chalices and Rods (which don't hurt you ALL that much, and you have other answers to like Mox Monkey). I think Gilded Drake would be some good in any tournement with the Carps showing up. We all know what they can do with Oath, and being able to go Gilded Drake/Waterfront bouncers against ANYBODY piloting with the green enchantment is obviously techy.

I think there are better choices then Fire // Ice as they only really do so much. Against UW Fish you would rather have Massacre, against Stax you'd rather have R+R, and against Slaver you'd probably rather have the extra REB, the extra planar void/tormod's crypt (kind of conflits with Chalice on the play, which is why I'm guessing their not in there), or something else silly.

And even though tutors are bad tempo, I'd like to know why you chose to include Mystical over Demonic, and not both. Demonic seems like it basically reads 1BU Target player Draws three cards.  in this deck, but it can also fetch out walk if you have a sufficient clock on the table, and don't tell me that Demonic Tutor, Time Walk is bad tempo.

Anywho, love the deck, congrats on the sapphire split last time, sorry about the IT incident, and hope to see you guys on Saturday.
-AJ

[ErkBek]

I've very carefully constructed this sideboard with diverse cards to cover almost every matchup (except oath, since they're aren't a whole lot of good options). Here's a breakdown

Fire/Ice - aggro mirrors, IT, ichorid
Planar Void - Ichorid, Gifts, Grim Long, IT (only bring in 1 vs. IT)
Shred Memory - Ichorid, Grim Long, IT
Reb - Gifts, fish, slaver, oath, IT (I only bring in 1 or 2)
Rack and Ruin - Stax, fish, and slaver (only if on the draw vs. slaver)
Arcane Lab - IT, Grim Long

On paper Planar Void looks much better than shred memory, however you have to factor the suprise factor of shred memory. As soon as planar void (or leyline) comes down, Grim long shifts to tinker.dec and IT is bob+tendrils.dec. Both of those changes are easy to make from the combo player's perspective when given time to shift their game plan. However, shred memory is different in that it suddenly stops a lethal yawg will either while on the stack, or just later in the game after tutoring for will or something of that nature. Shred memory also has the bonus of transmuting into men. I think its kinda funny how much space I've devoted to the IT matchup. Game 1 is can go either way, while game 2 and 3 were just auto wins for IT before I realized how much confidant tendrils decks destroyed this deck. This SB makes the matchup slightly favorable for URBana fish.

@ no DT: I don't think that 1BU for 3 cards is very good for this deck. 1B1U for another turn isn't all that hot either. The black mana also puts pressure on the manabase too. With all that said, I haven't tested DT.

@ Gilded Drake: I've never like this as a card vs. oath since if they oath up Razia first then you still can't block akroma. Now they've also got Simic Sky Swallower. In our meta annul might be the best card to SB for oath.

The whole incident with Joe is behind us, no hard feelings.

-Eric

[Cross]

@ Cross:  I would never want a basic swamp in the deck. Swamp -> duress isn't good unless you are playing combo. I'd much rather have a basic mountain for the stax matchup. I'd like to see you propose a better manabase.

Okay, how about:

Mana 25
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

I can’t see how this changes the mana base at all, aside from allowing you to run duress and not worry about wastelands which are two good things. If you’re worried about losing the consistency from the loss of one of the fetch lands just play it over one of the seas, not a huge change considering you’re not playing with drains

I also do not understand why duress is not good outside of combo. It’s a proven tool used against combo, but also great against any deck, and it’s played in tons of decks like oath, gifts, ub fish, confidant control, I’ve even seen it in some shop decks (I think Chang has them in his stax sideboard). 

I'm sorry if this came off as a flame at you guys. I'm sick of people saying this, this, and this are wrong with no testing, then making supposed improvements with bad logic.

No, but this did, as this definitely is coming from tons of experience with fish style decks, and testing and tournament performance with similar decks. Just check the tournament results forum and you’ll see my name winning one of the recent myriad games with a similar deck ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27707.0 ) , and top 8ing at the most recent myriad games (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28459.0 ) and winning the last beanie exchange (not up yet, but within a week should be up). This deck may look different on the surface, but is definitely a fish deck when you play with it.

On top of this, I have tested your deck with the changes I suggested and it runs great. The loss of a land from daze is a huge anti-tempo play and totally unacceptable in a deck based around gaining as much tempo as possible from small plays; duress is insane right now and I cannot see playing without it in any deck that can run it.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Uh Cross, your first link'd deck is nothing at all like Becker's. It appears to be a variation of a couple Italian decks I've tested in the past, but it is nothing like this at all.

[Pitlord]

Wow, I haven't posted on this for a while and am glad to see it keeps evolving.

First, @MaxxMatt, I agree with Kobefan that your list seems really suboptimal. Null Rod does not need to be included, chalice and monkey are enough hate. 3 Chalice keeps the odds of drawing one good, but also keeps you from drawing late chalices that suck. Them getting a 1 or 2 mana boost for a turn from mana vault or sol ring isn't that big of a deal. Next turn, if it is really important, munch it with monkey.

Secondly, I think 2 brainstorm seems OK, as duress is pretty weak. Have you tested Cabal therapy in the place of duress? It is a lot better because of it's flexibility, plus it can drop a confidant if it hits you for a lot and you are nearly dead. I think it seems worth testing, at the very least.

I also agree that trying to find room for a basic moutnain would be very good. Playing against this with stax, I am always happy to see that I can waste any color but blue. The mountain would also help a lot with the casting of REB and R&R.

As for the sideboard, it seems pretty savage. I think that the only possible change would be finding room for annul. It is solid agaisnt oath and stax, and it only costs 1. It fills the hole against the poor stax match, as well as filling the elusive 1-mana counter slot. Perhaps it could even be worth testing in the place of REB and/or R&R, depending on the meta-game.

[Cross]

Uh Cross, your first link'd deck is nothing at all like Becker's. It appears to be a variation of a couple Italian decks I've tested in the past, but it is nothing like this at all.

That doesn't really refute anything I have said about the deck. The lists may look different but they play in a similar manner. 

If anything the list I play with supports my theory that the manabase does not get screwed up by running non-blue basics, as that list plays with drains and has no issue with the swamp and library mainboard.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Really? They play out the same? How similar are we talking? I would imagine you both win by reducing your opponent to zero life and both involve Confidant at times, but that's about the extent of the similarity I see. Well, to be fair, you both draw cards and play Force of Will.

[ErkBek]

@ Cross:  I would never want a basic swamp in the deck. Swamp -> duress isn't good unless you are playing combo. I'd much rather have a basic mountain for the stax matchup. I'd like to see you propose a better manabase.

Okay, how about:

Mana 25
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

I can’t see how this changes the mana base at all, aside from allowing you to run duress and not worry about wastelands which are two good things. If you’re worried about losing the consistency from the loss of one of the fetch lands just play it over one of the seas, not a huge change considering you’re not playing with drains

I also do not understand why duress is not good outside of combo. It’s a proven tool used against combo, but also great against any deck, and it’s played in tons of decks like oath, gifts, ub fish, confidant control, I’ve even seen it in some shop decks (I think Chang has them in his stax sideboard). 

I'm sorry if this came off as a flame at you guys. I'm sick of people saying this, this, and this are wrong with no testing, then making supposed improvements with bad logic.

No, but this did, as this definitely is coming from tons of experience with fish style decks, and testing and tournament performance with similar decks. Just check the tournament results forum and you’ll see my name winning one of the recent myriad games with a similar deck ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27707.0 ) , and top 8ing at the most recent myriad games (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28459.0 ) and winning the last beanie exchange (not up yet, but within a week should be up). This deck may look different on the surface, but plays like a fish deck if you do some testing with it.

On top of this, I have tested your deck with the changes I suggested and it runs great. The loss of a land from daze is a huge anti-tempo play and totally unacceptable in a deck based around gaining as much tempo as possible from small plays; duress is insane right now and I cannot see playing without it in any deck that can run it.

First off, I'm not saying duress is a bad card. I think its really good, especially in the current meta. However, in a deck like this I think I'd rather have my opponent invest UU to play a drain or 2U/3U to play a draw spell then remand it back than play a pre-emtive duress. Maybe I'm wrong here, I'll have to test it. Would you recommend -3 Daze -1 Remand +4 Duress?

Your proposed manabase is solid, but not necessarily better. How often can you expect to have either the basic swamp or polluted delta + duress in your opening hand for the swamp->duress play.

40% of duress (playing 4) x 46?% chance of delta/swamp = .184

Is the swamp really worth it? You could argue that I can play bobs on basics with it, but normally I don't care if my Usea is wasted, once bob has resolved. Even when I do get delta/swamp + Duress how often would a Usea be better? What if I don't have another U source in my hand? I think its also important to note that unless I'm on the play I'll be boarding out 4 duress vs. stax, so the swamp is only in there for game 1? All my SB cards for stax are red.

It is also important to note that your confidant deck is 2 colors, while this is 3c. Fetching out a basic swamp in your deck sets you for all your non-U mana for the rest of the game. I'm still gonna have to grab an volcanic at some point.

The loss of a land from daze is a huge anti-tempo play and totally unacceptable in a deck based around gaining as much tempo as possible from small plays

I think it is totally acceptable. This deck recovers from the land loss better than any other fish deck in the past. I'd say the only real argument about being bad in some late game situations.

Lastly, the comment about bad logic was aimed at MaxxMatt, not you. I'd really like to get a basic swamp or mountain to work out in the deck, but I'm not sure if its benfits outweigh cutting a blue source for it. Could you post your list, I'll get some testing in with it ASAP.

EDIT: Fixed what the spellchecker messed up.

[Cross]

Really? They play out the same? How similar are we talking? I would imagine you both win by reducing your opponent to zero life and both involve Confidant at times, but that's about the extent of the similarity I see. Well, to be fair, you both draw cards and play Force of Will.

Well this is more of a theory question than something to do with the list in discussion, but I think that this deals with what you quantify as fish. I think fish is a fairly broad archetype including traditional lists, but also oath, fcg, ichorid, and yes my list.

Could you post your list, I'll get some testing in with it ASAP.

The changes that I tested in your list were:

Mana 25
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Creatures 15
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant

Draw/stuff 5
1 Ancestral
2 BS
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical

Disruption 15
4 FoW
3 Chalice
4 duress
2 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Rack and Ruin

This is nothing groundbreaking, I've just become a huge fan of duress recently because of the way the metagame has shifted, which you seem to agree with. I also think darkblast could have a place in the main or side, as without a bouncer even a welder or shaman could delay you enough to pull out a win.

I think its also important to note that unless I'm on the play I'll be boarding out 4 duress vs. stax, so the swamp is only in there for game 1? All my SB cards for stax are red.

Have you tested energy flux in the sb? You have said that stax is not a big player in your meta so I can see using rack and ruin in favor of it, but if something changes I have found flux to be an excellent hoser, and being blue is helpful under crucible waste lock. You could easily board out chalices, which are less helpful against stax, and the loss of your moxen to the flux is totally acceptable as flux just dominates stax. 

When sideboarding against stax I usually take out 2 of the 4 duress, the remaining 2 are still excellent at taking down lock pieces and the oh so devastating balance and tinker.

It is also important to note that your confidant deck is 2 colors, while this is 3c. Fetching out a basic swamp in your deck sets you for all your non-U mana for the rest of the game. I'm still gonna have to grab an volcanic at some point.

This is a good point and I may be pushing this duress envelope a bit, but as I said I think duress is too good now not play with it. If it doesn’t fit in with where you see the deck, then by all means play your list.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Please never qualify Oath as a Fish deck. Ever. Again.

That said, you're talking about tempo decks, which this is, as are some builds of Oath. Ichorid is genuine aggro as is FCG. Your list is T1T more than anything else, which may play like a tempo deck but is traditionally control based just as much, whereas Becker's Fish is almost pure tempo.

[MaxxMatt]

First, @MaxxMatt, I agree with Kobefan that your list seems really suboptimal. Null Rod does not need to be included, chalice and monkey are enough hate.

@ MaxxMatt:  First off, I think your list is terrible. Your logic of adding null rod to this deck is very flawed. Null rod does not fill in holes in matchups and it exploits the unfavorable stax matchup. I'm not sure why you fear sol ring netting an opponent mana one for a whole turn when you've got a monkey on the board, maybe if you ran daze you could neutralize that better.

I don't want to convince anyone about the goodness of my reasoning.
I never qualified your list or your choices "terrible" or "subpar", because I'm not so arrogant.
On the other hand, I'm not famous for talking about nothing.
Here a good example of my afternoon game. Urban-Fish vs. UB-StormBasedDeck.

With this example I want to underline the odds of what a single Sol Ring could be able to do and which sinergies I applied to kill him. The cards I used, prevented me from being singlehandly killed  by his own, damn, stupid, useless, poweless, brainless, Sol Ring.



Him. Fetch-->Island Go
Me. Land, Mox, CotV for 0, Brainstorm into Shaman and Daze, no FoW or Remand. Go.
Him. Island, Sol Ring, Go. No way to use my Daze.
Me. Wasteland, Shaman. He Remanded him into my hand. I have only a single red mana on table. Go.
Him. Underground, Ancestral. I FoWilled, he Remanded his own Ancestral into his hand. FoW fizzled. He Ancestralled again. Daze cannot be used because of Sol Ring.
Me. I drew into Rod.I play Shaman. He FoWilled it. I killed his dual land and played Rod. Almost GG.

During the subsequent turns, I followed up his clunky mana screw with D.Confidants and Ninjas.
I never resolved another counter. No need to do anything after that game situation.
Without Rod in play, he could have played a couple of other spells and Tutors, with me unable to properly stop his spells.

That card singlehandly sealed the game for me. He cannot play with more than 2 lands for the rest of the game. If he had that Sol Ring available, he would have chained a couple of TFKs and Bouncers to avoid my defences ( CotVs and Rods ).

With both CotVs and Rods ( he was stuck on two mana on table ), I avoid his Chain of Vapor, Rebuild and his Echoing Truth from being singlehandly enough for him to recover and win.
Shaman in play would have done the same job that Rod did, but, hey!!! It didn't resolve. I needed another good spell to threaten and stop his come back.
In last analyze, he could have used Sol Ring at least once without Rod into play, if I would have choosen to get it to farm instead of Shaman.
Deadly, eh? Have you ever thought about similar scenario?


I showed you one a simple example of how wise need to be a deckbuilder to be considered at least, good.
The singletons that you added to maindeck, instead of Rods, added you a situational and virtual flexibility.
During real life games, you need to draw into the best threat available in the shortest time.
Without Mystical Tutor, you cannot choose anyone of them.
How can they be considered as much good as Rod is?
Multiply those singletons, add them into your side and choose to play with the cheaper hoser of the game: Rod.

History showed me so many situations like these, that I realized how important is to be prepared to face them.
Good luck men.




On the other hand, I have been not blind to your good hints.
I missed and reintroduced Dazes into my maindeck, too.
The list that was worth testing is:

24 Mana Fonts
(15)
4 D.Conf
4 Ninja
4 Shaman
3 W. Bouncers
(17)
4 FoW
4 CotV
3 Rods
3 Daze
3 Remand
(5)
3 Brainstorm
1 Walk
1 Ancestral


Prosit,
MaxxMatt

PS. IMHO, the last list proposed by Kobefan is good. I don't know if it can be considered superior or not to the one with Rods. I'm not that arrogant, yet. I would continue testing both of them, in order to make some little game's statistics, before continuing with these argumetations