Is Uba Mask necessary in Ubastax?

[Evenpence]

If you've been living in a cave for the past year, Uba Mask is an artifact from Champions of Kamigawa which reads:

Uba Mask
4
Artifact
If a player would draw a card, that player removes that card from the game face up instead.
Each player may play cards he or she removed from the game with Uba Mask this turn.

Uba Mask has a replacement ability and a static ability.  The replacement ability is useful for comboing well with Bazaar, and the static ability is useful for dodging counterspells, decreasing enemy hand size, and comboing well with Welder, creating "Ubalock."

That being said, Ubastax is named for it's ability to abuse a card advantage engine by combining Uba Mask with Bazaar, two cards which were not played in any incarnation of Stax deck previously.  The deck got it's name from Robert Vroman, the creator of the deck, roughly one year ago.

However, the metagame has shifted to beat Ubastax, with decks like I.T. and Slaver rising to the forefront, Ubastax has needed to adapt on several levels to remain competitive.  The most recent incarnation of this survival in the metagame has been the removing of Null Rods for useful artifacts with activated abilities, such as Karn, Triskelion, and most infamously, Jester's Cap.

The last time I posted here about Null Rod possibly being cut from Ubastax, I recieved much more disapproval than I thought was even possible.  Null Rod was thought to be a sacred cow within Ubastax, one which could not be cut in any way for any other card.  The suggestion of cutting Null Rod in favor of artifacts with useful activations was approved of by ONE person out of twenty.  The thread was deemed laughable at best, and I deleted it a day or two after its creation.

Much like Null Rod was, Uba Mask is now considered (IMO) to be a sacred cow of the Ubastax archetype.  Many have sought to say that if you were to cut Uba Mask from Ubastax, it would cease to be Ubastax, and it would cease to win.  I.E., Uba Mask is so essential to the deck that if you were to cease playing it, you would cease to win.

I contend that this is a misinformed belief from someone who has never enjoyed success with the deck.  Uba Mask is not an essential part of the deck, and it's numbers in winning decklists have been dropping consistently since the Ubastax veterans here on TMD have been at 3.

Positives of Uba Mask:

+  Useful for stopping counterspells.
+  Useful for preventing normal brainstorms.  (a very unusual brainstorm would be if our opponent had 0 cards in hand)
+  Combos well with other pieces in the deck. (Bazaar, Welder, Wire, possibly Sphere, etc)
+  Can be welded in and out to create an "Ubalock".
+  Capable of removing win conditions.  (although this is very rare)

Negatives of Uba Mask:

-  High casting cost, usually a better play first turn.
-  Not disruptive compared to cards that can take it's place.
-  Enemy can Ubalock controller of Uba Mask.
-  Only good in a limited number of unpopular matchups.  (Aggro, Combo, Oath, and Slaver are usually unimpressed)
-  Can be very bad in the mirror and similiar matchups.

When you have Ubazaar going, it is very hard to lose indeed.  However, it is hard to get Ubazaar going for the following reasons:

1)  You usually need at least two cards to do it (which are only 7 cards in your deck), but usually three. (Bazaar/Welder/Uba Mask)
2)  You will play more important artifacts before Uba Mask most of the time.  Uba Mask is a lock piece which is not really a lock piece at all without Welder.  And is usually only a lock piece if you have bazaar or enemy has countered or destroyed lock pieces, allowing you to weld Uba Mask out.  Not to mention the possibility of playing first turn 4cc artifact is not extremely reliable, so you'll probably play a smaller artifact (or Welder) first, then play a 4cc artifact on your second turn, which is almost always never Uba Mask.
3)  The number of Uba Masks have been decreasing.  Uba Mask has been seen to be not as important as many of the other pieces in Ubastax, so it's been cut down in number to usually 3, but also 2 has been appearing more recently.
4)  People know about Ubazaar.  They're going to stop it.  It's well-known.

The negatives which Uba Mask holds within itself, combined with Ubazaar being hard to achieve, the fact that the card is only good in a few matchups which are on the decline (Gifts, Fish, etc), and the shifting of the metagame to combat Ubastax has made the card a perfect card to cut.

I don't believe I got a single Ubalock OR Ubazaar at Richmond.  Not a single time.  If one of my opponent's remembers me getting Ubazaar (which is far more likely, as I would have remembered Ubalock), please tell me.  I actually think I might have Day 2 against my Dragon-playing opponent, but I'm not positive.

[Small Edit:  I changed Ubazaar to Ubalock in the above parenthesis, as that's what I meant, but not what I typed.  Also, I actually do remember getting Ubazaar once or twice in the tournament, but not more than two times, I don't think.  The other time was against my Niv-Mizzet Oath opponent.]

Uba Mask also only removed a few counterspells from my opponents, and was not drained all that much (although it does make for a juicy drain target).

There are several contenders which can go in Uba Mask's stead - Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, Tangle Wire (if we're not already playing them), or other cards of a different nature, like Juggernaut, Triskelion, Granite Shard, Orb of Dreams, Gorilla Shaman, Duplicant, Sundering Titan, etc.  Or, we can just add the number of locks and activated artifacts that we're already playing.

Cutting Uba Mask gets rid of useless cards in most matchups (I find myself siding them out more than any other card), while adding explosiveness and unpredictibility to the deck.

I contend that Uba Mask is no sacred cow of Ubastax, and is readily cuttable in favor of more useful cards for metagames.

What does the TMD community think about this?

[Juggernaut GO]

Stormtroopers say yes!

Warning for spam.
-Klep

[sean1i0]

I believe that Uba Stax is definitely cuttable, but there are very, very few cards that I do not believe are cuttable in a Stax list. 

I do have to say though that I don't believe it was the community's expectation of Uba Mask that allowed many decks the ability to defeat UbaStax, although that definitely helped, but more that everyone knows now that it is very hard for UbaStax to find strip mine and, because of that, players can effectively build mana bases against it by fetching out basics all day long.

[Evenpence]

The metagame has been shifting to beat Ubastax, so we need to shift Ubastax to beat the metagame.  The reason that most Ubastax players did not do well at Richmond, but I did, was because I incorporated new (and old!) tech to my lists which people were not prepared for.  That, and many of the Ubastax lists at Richmond were suboptimal IMO.

Diceman hit the nail on the head on another thread when he said that Stax must be constantly evolving in order to do well.  Many people have not realized Granite Shard, even though we Ubastax veterans have been hailing it as an amazing card ever since we cut Null Rod in favor of Triskelion (what was I thinking?  Granite Shard is 100x better).  Null Rod-less builds have now become the norm (peculiar to say the least).

There has also been some tech cards floating around which I hope to confirm in my list which I'm probably going to play on Saturday at Blue Bell.  I might play Grimlong though - I haven't decided yet.  Hope to see all you NJ boys there. 

[heiner]

The problem with UBA Mask is that it is a late game card. You have to bazaar 2 or 3 times until you have drawn enough mana and lock to seal the game. This is just way too slow in the todays metagame. The only point it was good if you were unloading your hand in the first two turns stalling the opponent and then drop your draw engine so he couldn't come back. All this makes Mask too narrow for a 4cc card wich is pretty much useless on its own.
The broken combo in UBA always was welder+bazaar and not UBA+bazaar. I really like the bazaar in my 5cc build of stax and I think UBA has to advance in this direction. The next question after cutting Mask hence is: Do we still need 4 bazaar, as bazaar is a bad card on its own and then only comboes with welder and crucible anymore.

[sean1i0]

The broken combo in UBA always was welder+bazaar and not UBA+bazaar. I really like the bazaar in my 5cc build of stax and I think UBA has to advance in this direction. The next question after cutting Mask hence is: Do we still need 4 bazaar, as bazaar is a bad card on its own and then only comboes with welder and crucible anymore.

I think that in any UbaStax deck that cannot support the full suite of tutors, 4 bazaars is the right call.  First of all, like you said, Uba Mask + Bazaar isn't even the most amazing combo in original UbaStax, Welder + Bazaar is; Crucible + Bazaar is pretty damned awesome, too.  The main thing is though, that without a 5c (or nearly so) mana base, all the tutors become absent in the deck; Stax decks always need to have a way of creating card quality and if the tutors are not a possibility, I believe that the number of bazaars needed jumps immediately from 1-2 to 4 so as to give oneself the maximum card quality engine available.  And remember, too, that even if it does nothing else, bazaar cycles through cards, which shouldn't be taken lightly.

[TimeWizzle]

I came to the same conclusion about Uba Mask before Richmond, and thus chose to run this list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16527

The problem with the card (Uba) is that while it is quite degenerate in conjunction with Bazaar, it really isn't much of a lock component on its own.  It is not useful in multiples, except for one in play and one in the yard with active welder.  And in some instances (against combo for example) it is actually a really bad card to play, since it can turn brainstorms into ancestrals.  Also, it is more or less useless against other Stax since they will likely be able to play whatever they reveal anyway (and may be playing Bazaar of their own).  I feel that typically, welding the Mask in and out to steal a draw is less effective than welding smokestacks, tangle wires, triskelions, etc. and locking out their board instead of their hand (personal opinion).  Since the bazaar is good on it own (in conjunction with welders and crucible especially) i run three but only one mask.  And as i run 3 tutors to find it if necessary (and I am trying to fit Imp Seal and/or enlightened), it really isn't a problem getting it if I really need it.    That's my 2^9/10 cents.

[yespuhyren]

It also depends on your play style.  I personally find that no matter how many people I play on MWS or in real life, I have yet to meet a player who will go for the Ubalock as consistantly as I do.  Honestly, if you aren't going for that lock, then sure, cut the mask.  If you use the lock, which I believe you should be going for, then don't cut it.

Then again, if you do cut uba masks, you could fit in resistors as well, but are they really better than Ubas?

The problem with UBA Mask is that it is a late game card.

Ummmm...no.  If you resolve a first turn Uba Mask against any blue based control deck, you are doing well.  They lose the thing they fight for the most, which is card advantage.  If gifts or CS can't gain card advantage off me once this hits play, I'm pretty sure its not just a late game card.

The broken combo in UBA always was welder+bazaar and not UBA+bazaar. I really like the bazaar in my 5cc build of stax and I think UBA has to advance in this direction. The next question after cutting Mask hence is: Do we still need 4 bazaar, as bazaar is a bad card on its own and then only comboes with welder and crucible anymore.

Yes, the most broken has been welder + bazaar, but saying that welder+Uba or bazaar and crucible aren't that amazing is just craziness.  I can tell you that Uba+welder has won me TONS of games, and bazaar+crucible has also been insane when digging for specific cards, so you don't actually lose card advantage (lands discarded).  Not to mention that if you can get Ubazaar going you should have a good chance at winning as long as they don't hit you with a massive artifact bounce spell.

Uba+Welder
Uba+Bazaar
Bazaar+Crucible
Bazaar+Welder

All four are amazing, and I wouldn't lose 2 great combos and stop card advantage just to add something like resistors or creatures into the deck

[Moxlotus]

I've always thought Uba Mask was terrible.  I thought Stax wanted to dump cards into the yard with Bazaar, not remove them from the game and try to cast them.  Crucible and Welder work so much better with Bazaar when a Mask isn't in play.  I'd rather draw my card, try to cast it, then dump 2 other cards into the yard for Crucible and Welder use rather than draw 3 cards and try to cast them all.  I've tested different Stax decks and none of them have had Mask in them for this reason.

I haven't played Uba Stax much, but I'm not sure what match Mask benefits. Obv, its bad against Stax.  It sucks against Combo allowing to cast a draw 7 without dumping your old hand.  Its bad against Slaver since they can mask yourself out.  I guess its good against TFK gifts.  But I'd rather have an actual lock piece like Rod or SoR or Tangle to actually stop them from casting R&R/Rebuild and winning.

[dicemanx]

Honestly, if you aren't going for that lock, then sure, cut the mask.  If you use the lock, which I believe you should be going for, then don't cut it.

You might have to elaborate on this point a little Jason. Since UbaStax has nothing in the way of tutoring and has limited card drawing, I'd imagine that what your deck will produce off the top will dictate your lock strategy. Stax to me involves far more skill deck-constructionwise as opposed to playwise, and doesn't have too many decisions to make apart from effective Bazaar management. This isn't meant as a criticism of the deck - its just an inherent part of it.

I agree with Evenpence that this is not a sacred cow in (Uba)Stax, but I feel that way about any of the cards in the deck. From what I've seen in the past 9 months in tourneys and from personal testing, Uba Mask has a huge range from absolutely game winning to downright terrible. But then again, most of the lock pieces in (Uba)Stax fall into such ranges - cards like Null Rod, Jester's Cap, SoR/Trinisphere, etc. I wouldn't even call these cards "metagame decisions" entirely, because even the decks they are supposed to be good against might not be harmed sufficiently by them. For instance, a resolved, activated Jester's Cap will devestate IT or Grimlong, but if you are seeing a Cap in your opening hand instead of a Null Rod for example, and you don't have a way to cast it on turns 1 or 2, then that card's inclusion just backfired on you. By the same token, if you resolve an early Null Rod, and cannot find enough pressure, you might lose regardless, and that Null rod basically limited the types of aggressive cards you could otherwise be running in the deck.

I think that there are two recently unexplored options with the archetype (old ideas, but need revisiting). The first centers around Metalworker, which to me complements the Jester's Cap plan nicely so you are not as dependent on early Shops or Bazaar + Welder. Metalworker can also allow for the dipping into another powerful card - Mindslaver. Finally, we can always entertain ideas of Staff of Domination as an instant win 2 card combo - the idea I think has some potential, and can manufacture a lot of very easy wins, especially if the deck plans on running some tutoring so you don't have to choke the deck with too many Staffs. Metalworker precludes Null Rod of course, but it also removes the necessity of running CoWs against certain archetypes. I feel CoW has been weakened a lot, mainly because both control and control/combo sport such resilient mana bases that minimize CoWs effectiveness as a lock piece. CoW is more ciritical in the mirror, but I also think that Metalworker trumps CoW so long as they don't play Null rods.

The second option, which I recall Evenpence mentioning previously, are the main deck Juggernauts (and other big artifact men). As FFY mentioned in a previous Gifts thread, decks like CS (and Gifts too) fear tempo-based strategies, especially if backed by some powerful "temporary" lock pieces like CotV, Null Rod, and SoR. The "full-lock" plans of UbaStax are no longer as effective anymore, because the decks they were designed to do well against have adapted. Therefore, perhaps a switch to a more tempo oriented strategy is in order.

I know this is departing from the original discussion of Uba Mask itself, but I'm thinking that Evenpence is more interested in the bigger picture here - how do we proceed with Workshop decks in light of the adaptation(s) against decks like UbaStax?  I've been meaning to post a recent list that incorporates some of these ideas that I've been messing with lately, but perhaps it is better suited to its own thread.


 

[benthetenor]

Uba Mask isn't bad against Slaver. It's a liability against Slaver, but if you can win the Welder War (which you should be doing anyway, as losing it will cause every other lock part in the deck to be terrible), then Uba Mask might just be the stone cold nuts. It neuters the card that you most fear and puts a lot of pressure on the opponent to use whatever he flips over. It positively dominates their primary draw engine of Thirst for Knowledge. Yespuhyren knows exactly what he's talking about. It prevents a control deck from winning via card advantage.

As to cutting it, if you choose to go that way, what would you add? The deck already has a critical mass of lock parts, so the choice is either a creature or a card drawing spell/tutor. Adding card draw or a tutor will (usually) necessitate adding another color, which is bad for consistency, so that spell will have to be that much better. As for adding a creature, I'd rather just have the Mask, since I don't have any problems winning without these extra creatures. Maybe something like Granite Shard, but in that case you're absolutely dominating the Welder War, in which case I'd rather have Uba Masks in the deck somehow.

Uba Mask isn't in there due to some oversight. It's a ridiculous card. If you go first turn Uba Mask against the vast majority of decks, and follow it up with some disruption (as you should with any other lock piece in the deck, lest you lose), then you will win 9 times out of 10. Against a Drain deck, you've just effectively won the game. Late game, the threat of Uba Mask via Goblin Welder will turn off your enemy's draw spells. There are decks that don't care about Uba Mask, true. There are decks that don't care about Wasteland. Should we cut them? Without Wasteland, Crucible becomes weaker. Should we cut them? What Uba Mask lacks in actual disruption, it adds by changing the way that the enemy will play their game, assuming that they're any good. I'd much rather have that, and with it 4 strong combos, than 2 strong combos and an extra 2 or 3 lock cards or worse, a big creature that I didn't need in the first place..

[Evenpence]

The second option, which I recall Evenpence mentioning previously, are the main deck Juggernauts (and other big artifact men). As FFY mentioned in a previous Gifts thread, decks like CS (and Gifts too) fear tempo-based strategies, especially if backed by some powerful "temporary" lock pieces like CotV, Null Rod, and SoR. The "full-lock" plans of UbaStax are no longer as effective anymore, because the decks they were designed to do well against have adapted. Therefore, perhaps a switch to a more tempo oriented strategy is in order.

I tried to beat Slaver by Tempo Day 2, as I knew I wasn't winning it Day 1.  My ideal play was to go Juggernaut, go, draw, attack, Tangle Wire, go.  That never happened, but they were still houses all day - putting pressure on decks to do stuff now or pay the price.

It forced Rich Shay to get a Welder down to deal with my Juggernaut instead of a few lock pieces that I had on the board.  That allowed me to gain tempo by playing a Welder of my own so he couldn't start welding out my good stuff for bad stuff.  I think I drew bazaar and dropped a Triskelion into the GY which I recurred and pinged his Welder though (although Granite Shard would have been better, simply because I could have hardcast it and used it then).

FFY is dead on - tempo is completely the way to beat Slaver, which is why Fish does it so well.  Whatever happened to Fish anyway?  With Stax dying down, they could really make a comeback.  I've run a Workshop Aggro SB many times, and it's proved extremely well against Slaver.

I don't think Metalworker is the right approach to take to Stax for a few reasons:  It forces you to keep artifacts in your hand and depend fully upon Metalworker in the early game.  Metalworker is anything but a threat unless you have artifacts in your hand, which makes him absolutely only good in the early game.  Moreover, you have to have the mana to reliably cast him first turn (which is usually about 60% of the time, as you'd also probably be adding in Grim Monolith / Voltaic Key).  I think you're very right about alot of stuff though, Diceman.

[dicemanx]

I don't think Metalworker is the right approach to take to Stax for a few reasons:  It forces you to keep artifacts in your hand and depend fully upon Metalworker in the early game.  Metalworker is anything but a threat unless you have artifacts in your hand, which makes him absolutely only good in the early game.  Moreover, you have to have the mana to reliably cast him first turn (which is usually about 60% of the time, as you'd also probably be adding in Grim Monolith / Voltaic Key).

The deck doesn't have to be Worker-centric - the Worker is there to allow for more consistent turn 2 Cap activations (since I believe that Cap is a BIG threat right now in the current meta). You are absolutely right that the Worker is an early game card, but I'd want to exploit that as much as possible. By mid game, I wouldn't be holding back artifacts just for the sake of worker, unless they are artifact mana sources that otherwise don't need to be cast. Plus, its not like Worker is taking the slots of any lock pieces, because it counts as a mana source. At worst, it is taking the slots of 1-2 CoWs. The castability of Worker turn 1 can be a problem, which can be offset a little by using Ancient Tombs, which themselves are not a bad call at all. Voltaic Key and Grim monolith I haven't tested, but I'm not sure i'd like those.

While I don't think Worker is some overlooked powerhouse, and it might not pan out, I do believe there is potential in the card. I've actually been testing a lot of such ideas for the past 4 months or so, and got a chance to try them out in an event. I think people would be surprised to see just how many games can be won off the strength of a turn 1 Metalworker, just as it was the case when MUD was popular some years ago. But as I said, nothing is set in stone for me. Like most others, I'm still searching for the most effective combinations of cards for the current meta.

[Hydra]

I don't think Metalworker is the right approach to take to Stax for a few reasons:  It forces you to keep artifacts in your hand and depend fully upon Metalworker in the early game.  Metalworker is anything but a threat unless you have artifacts in your hand, which makes him absolutely only good in the early game.  Moreover, you have to have the mana to reliably cast him first turn (which is usually about 60% of the time, as you'd also probably be adding in Grim Monolith / Voltaic Key).  I think you're very right about alot of stuff though, Diceman.

The effectiveness of Metalworker is increased a lot simply by recognizing the impact Metalworker has on deck construction and adapting accordingly.  It is possible to run things like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.

By going the Metalworker route, you are essentially making the non-verbal statement that you plan on winning quickly, as Metalworker does get progressively worse the later into the game it gets, as you draw enough other mana sources to render the 'Worker unnecessary.  To this end, you need cards like Jester's Cap, Mindslaver, Staff of Domination, and perhaps even something like Sword of Fire and Ice (late game effectiveness for 'Worker?) to secure you a quick victory.

Essentially, you're playing Workshop Combo at this point, with the added bonus of you being able to run tempo cards like Tangle Wire and Trinisphere without fear of interrupting your own strategies while disrupting your opponent's.  Whether or not this is a viable strategy at this point is beyond me (Peter's been the one testing it, I've just heard the results), but it's something to consider.

What I personally have been focused on is the concept of tempo-based attacks out of Workshop decks.  Workshop Aggro has long been of interest to me primarily because you have a lot disruption tools available to you as are available to Fish, but with a much more robust clock to back up the tempo earned.  I have a few lists in the works, but mainly they have ended up on the backburner due to other projects, and thus remain little more than exercises in theory.  If there's interest I have no quelms with sharing lists, but as a general rule I don't like to post untuned decks, hence not sharing immediately.  I do think there's some potential, but I haven't personally had the time to put into it.  Perhaps after Rochester.

Edit: Yeah, I did pretty much say similiar things as Peter, he just types faster.

[Evenpence]

I noticed both of you posting on this thread at the same time (the who's online feature on TMD is great), and I suspected it would be about Metalworker.  I've tested out Metalworker a good bit - with the absence of Null Rod in the current metagame, it could be decent, but the deck really needs to have another way to win other than just comboing out with crazy amounts of mana - as Force of Will and Mana Drain stop this just fine.  Chalice, Tangle Wire, and even Sphere are fine for restricting the opponent of playing counterspells - but you depend very heavily upon your opening hand, and can't win turn 1.

I see alot of flaws which are naturally part of the metalworker strategy.  However, it still might have potential.  I'll continue testing with it - before, Ubastax was my worst nightmare, as they had Null Rod + ways to manipulate me like Welder/Duplicant and such.  Now that many decks aren't playing Null Rod, and Null Rod Fish has made a strong absence from the metagame (it really is time for a return), it's definitely worth considering.

I'd be willing to work with you on it, Diceman, if you wouldn't be opposed.    Start up a thread on it, or send me a PM, and I'd be glad to help test and post results.

[Harlequin]

I have explored Metalworker in a mono-brown deck a good deal.  I wanted it to work so badly.  Infact I showed the deck to Evenpence at richmond.   Sporting such gems as 3 MD jesters cap with 1 on the side, and the Eon hub tech also on the side.  He seemed interested in the deck, and said he liked it. At any rate.  I found that the deck had one huge problem.  It had no filter.  Once the deck was past turn 2 or 3, it was all 100% dumb topdeck luck.  I gave up on the mono-color deck, and tested some colored verson of the deck, and hated the consistancy issue that arose.  I even built a Red-Brown deck with 4 smokes stacks, 4 Bazaars, and 4 welders.  But still I found the consistancy to be lacking.  Perhapse someone else will build the deck better than I could, but from my personal testing... building a metal worker deck is just not really that Viable.  

Here is the thread for the original deck:  Which has very little to do with uba mask and stack, but alot to do with metalworker.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27338.0
 ( I was reading it again, and I found that after every period there is a "?"  That was not the orginal way it was... so just bear with it.  When I read it now It looks like im uber-confused ROFL)

[meadbert]

Uba Mask is a very strong card that should be a four of.

Stax has the mana acceleration that allows it to play its top decks that turn.

Other decks do not.  Even by itself Uba Mask can cause significant card advantage.

Sphere, Smokestack, Null rod and Tanglewire all make it hard to cast spells.

This makes your opponents draws dead.

Thirst must be used the turn you draw it.  Even if you can afford it you cannot afford to play the cards you draw off it unless they are land/moxen.

Brainstorm is not useful.

Counterspells are pointless.

Welder leads to Uba Lock.

Also Uba Lock is achieved with a second Mask so it is good to run 4 because the second one is useful rather than a dead card.

I consider Uba Mask one of the best cards in the deck.

It can hurt when I am Uba Locked by my own Masks.  I am all ears when it comes to winning the Welder war.

[warble]

After playing a few uba stax builds I'd say that uba mask is one of the weakest cards, but so is bazaar of baghdad.  Both cards do not solidify a lock, so when you say remove a few of both I'd have to agree that it is optimal for a lot of workshop stax builds.  Keeping less than a full complement of bazaar and 3 uba mask tends to make me lean further towards a 5 color build of workshop simply because the sacrifice you make towards your draw power means you absolutely cannot guarantee that you get colored mana all game unless you are running 5 color and dedicated to the 5 color manabase.  UBA stax has strength in the mirror because of basic mountains and strength against control slaver and aggro because running 4 barbarian ring is the right thing to do in that metagame.  It dominates matchups that otherwise would be start-turn dependant because it is so friggin' consistent it makes palyers with 5 color builds and welders get pwned so fast they end up crying after the match weeping "bazaar and uba is so broken I hate crucible smokestack it comes out too fast blah blah."  Leaning towards a 5 color build gives such broken turns as "plops hand down including smokestack then balance on turn 1."  Uba stax just doesn't have that capability, but it more than makes up for that in consistency and execution time and time again will show you that.

In conclusion I would state that their is no right answer, because bazaar of baghdad is broken as anything ever printed but workshop is broken as heyelll too.  How you choose to abuse both is up to your preference and your risk level that you want to take into a tournament.  I'd much rather draw those broken 5 color hands that having 2 uba mask and 3 bazaar give consistently, but it's just not feasible to expect that from the same deck that gives you the consistent turn 1 uba mask followed by turn 2 bazaar.

[yespuhyren]

Assuming we did cut uba masks, I would say that this deck would be able to head in a Workshop Aggro direction, something I toyed with about a year ago, when I first got my bazaars.  The deck was shop aggro, running Juggs and Razormane Masticore.  Without Uba Masks, Razormane becomes viable, and he is easily one of the strongest creatures we can possibly run.

I would say to do this you do something like

-4 Smokestack
-4 Uba Mask
-4 Jester's Cap

+4 Juggernaut
+3 Razormane Masticore
+3 Null Rod/Lightning greaves
+2 Sundering Titan for welding in with bazaars and stuff.

This is purely based on theory, and I have always loved shop aggro.  This is probably close to what I would play

[vroman]

compiling full list of uba function

ubazaar
welder lock
kill counterspells
kill discard spells
hose vast majority of draw spells
greatly reduce utility of all non-permanents
increase card advantage in conjunction w mana denial locks (very hard for enemy to draw out of lock under uba)
randomly rfg enemy's key one-ofs
prevent empty library game loss (just having an active welder against mill combos is lock by itself)
highly broken w draw 7s
prevent madness
prevent ninjitsu
prevent cycling
shut down alex library
reduce metalworker efficiency
kill both masticores
abuse ensnaring bridge
ignore chains mephistopeles
ignore no-draw half of possessed portal
hurt dragon combo, by forcing them to find intuition before rfging their win conditions


Im sure there are others Ive forgotten or never discovered. many of these are obscure, but the overall game warping effect is worth taking into any tier meta.

[Brapp]

I like where this thread is going.

I've been messing around with Metalworker builds for a couple months. I feel they could be the new direction of mono-colored Stax. I sported a Mindslaver or two, and also 2 Staff of Domination as an "Oops, I win" factor and a sweet late game topdeck. Plus, I've found the random Staff of Domination invaluable when staring down an opposing fattie.

I ran a couple each of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. They worked really well too, although they necessitate Crucible of Worlds due to their vulnerability. I also ran a couple Darksteel Citadels that could sit in my hand and give two Metalworker mana.

This is probably bad, bad, bad but if I'm running Mono-Red, no Uba Mask, and Bazaar of Baghdad, I'm reaaaaallly tempted to run Squee, Goblin Nabob. What do you think?

EDIT: Here's one aggro-combo deck I've been running for about a month. This deck is completely colorless, which will elicit VERY negative responses from all of you guys. The deck works pretty well, but it's FAR from optimal. You can take a gander if you so choose.

// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    3 Darksteel Citadel
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 City of Traitors
    1 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
    4 Metalworker
    4 Juggernaut
    2 Triskelion

// Spells
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 Smokestack
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Black Lotus
    3 Staff of Domination
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Thran Dynamo
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    4 Tangle Wire
    3 Mindslaver
    1 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Defense Grid

[Disburden]

I am really sorry to be off topic slightly, but I had to  ask this question:

How do you not get screwed by someone just playing Null Rod?

[yespuhyren]

I would have to agree.  In metagames where there is lots of Metalworker/Affinity, I would be MD'ing 4 Null Rods instead of 4 caps, and I would just change the 1 extra card to Duplicant/Titan/Wheel

[Brapp]

I am really sorry to be off topic slightly, but I had to  ask this question:

How do you not get screwed by someone just playing Null Rod?

That deck really does get screwed. It's not optimal.

However, I do like Mindslaver in Stax.  Activating Slaver with a Smokestack out can spell doom for the opponent.

[yespuhyren]

We've been discussing running a single Mindslaver in the deck on our team's Message board as well.  It is still undecided, simply because it is not that easy to activate a mindslaver early on, though late game it is awesome.

[dicemanx]

I wouldn't be quick to call the deck not optimal because it dies to Null Rod. Null Rod is losing some popularity - both Fish and Stax with Rods are experiencing a decline in numbers. As a result, it looks like a fine time to try some decks that were being otherwise dissuaded by Null Rod. And sure if a meta is "dominated by affinity" then Null Rod might be a fine choice again, but that is hardly a likely scenario.

The idea is not to worry about cards that might turn out to be phantom threats. The Shop deck that you build has to be tailored to your particular meta, and if that meta is light on Rods, then go for it.

[yespuhyren]

I would definitely agree with that statement.  If you know there aren't going to be a lot of rods going around, then this deck would probably do extremely well.  Like Peter said, this is all about metagaming correctly.  If you were to take this into a local tournament blindly, and it turned out that there was a lot of fish, then you would regret it.  I think that metalworker could definitely be a huge card, and has been doing extremely well in Europe for years.  Most of the workshop decks that T8 there seem to be Metalworker based, though I feel their decklists would be weak in our metagame.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I have been playing Ubastax in local tournaments for the last couple months myself, and have been finding that the amount of mass bounce (Hurk, Rebuild) being played makes Ubastax terrible.  Especially with the dependence on all artifact locks (no enchantments), I've been tinkering with my deck to see if I could make it stronger. 

My deck before tinkering looked like:
30 lands+zaars
4 Smoke
4 Resistor
1 Trini
3 Null Rod
4 Crucible
4 Welder
4 Chalice
3 Mask
3 Juggernaut

The first card to get cut from this list was the Mask for 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, but I've not been impressed with them, either.  I'm very interested to see what you guys have come up with in the Rodless versions.

[yespuhyren]

First of all, the deck has always been weak towards massive bounce.  That is why Cap has been so powerful for this deck.  Juggernaut should not be in the list, he is terrible in the deck.  It is completely against what the deck is trying to do.  If you are trying to lock them down stax style, then stick to it, and don't focus on beatings.  You might also want to try out Tangle wire, as its really strong MD.  I am sending in a minature primer on building this deck more effectively to SCG.  Hopefully they will post it.

EDIT:  Miniature primer = 11-12 pages in MS word  :lol:

[Liam-K]

I've been doing some work in my little bottom-of-the-closet decklab lately.  A few weeks back I came to a few important realizations about some cards in Stax, including the mask (or more accurately, applied concepts that I already knew).

1)
Two card combos that do not win the game are not good unless the cards involved are independantly playable.

although uba lock and ubazaar are both broken, neither make the game immediately over.


2)
Cards should do something as soon as they hit the table.

While this is not a hard and fast rule, it is a good one.  Uba Mask's application in a vaccuum has to do with card advantage based on the premise you will RFG less cards than your opponent.  This takes SERIOUS time to work, and the game can usually be ended by either player before the net effect becomes worth a card.


3)
Cards that are easily played around are bad disruption.

Perhaps most applicable of all, your opponent always knows when he is and is not dealing with an Uba Mask, and (unless he's a scrub) knows how to deal.  This makes the card infinitely more bad.


I also agree with Evenpence and FFY about tempo.  Tempo is the direction to take stax.