Aggro sucks, work on decks that aren't fish

[AngryPheldagrif]

I don't feel like quoting that mess, so I'll say a couple things. First off, if I'm talking about Oath it is in fact the ICBM version that I designed with combo specifically in mind. It plays almost twice as many disruption cards as GAT and has one of if not the best anti combo setups ever played. Even IT, which I consider the pinnacle of disruption-proof combo, consistently loses to a competently piloted ICBM Oath.

Second, the idea that it loses without Orchard is misleading. Say what you want about T1, but tons of decks still play creatures, whether its Welder/Shaman in CS, Fishes in Fish, etc. The fact that the deck doesn't really have problems finding them with 4 of them and 4 tutors also alleviates that.

Lastly, on Shop Aggro and possibly Shop decks in general, they suffer from the same basic problem. Without Force of Will, it takes a lot of preparation and skill to be able to adapt yourself and your deck to metagame swings and unexpected matchups. You have to know your deck like the back of your hand and be able to tutor with your eyes closed. While it may not be the most challenging to pilot, Workshop decks are by far the most difficult to build and mulligan with. Stax suffers from an inability to react fast enough to fragmenting metas, making it a dominant deck in some areas and useless in others. Workshop Aggro can be hated out, crapped out, or dominate. Too much of a swing for widespread success.

[Nehptis]

I think my recent decklist is complimentary to this discussion.  I'd be interested in comments regarding this deck that I tried at a recent 30+ person tourney in which I Top 8ed.  Instead of using the typical Fish / Aggro approach I combined some Wretch / Bob beats with a TOA finish or start depending on when you have the opportunity to play the combo.

The decklist is in my report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28302.0

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I failed to mention something with my last post. I think a lot of the aggro players should do what many of the pro players in my area do, and what I used to do when I played aggro in extended.

I would make a list of every efficient beater in the format. I would then make a list of disruption and utility that has good synergy with the creatures I was running. Usually I came up with a generally effective deck that was medicore at best but some people create monster decks in that fashion. From pros to casual players.



I think Black is the heart of Aggro right now. It has a fantastic curve and can pump a lot utility out. It just can't deal with brokenness which is a huge problem.

I also think green has the fat to support it as well. I would imagine something similar to Oshawa Stompy with a black twist to it would be effective. Something exactly like Vegeta's old survival deck I remember seeing. I imagine something between Wild Zombies and Vegetas old deck would certainly be viable.

In general heres a list of a bunch of great beaters that aren't Cloud Of Faeries. You can add a lot to this list I'm sure

Green:                                               Black:
Wild Mongrel                                       Withered Wretch
Basking Rootwalla                                 Plagued Rusalka
Arrogant Wurm                                    Carnophage
Quirion Dryad                                       Sarcomancy
Nimble Mongoose                                 Phyrexian Negator
Werebear                                            Mesmeric Fiend
Eternal Witness                                    Dark Confidant
                                                         

Much more meh guys...

River Boa
Fleshreaver
Viridian Zealot

Theres a lot more you can add to this list. I think the colors to start with are either black with green or black with blue. White isn't as strong since the only thing white is really needed for is STP for dorky colossus. In that case I rather start with Blue for extract. A full fist of acceleration would be good too so you can throw dorks at them rather fast and try to get lethal by turn four. Just a random thought. I haven't seen too many ideas going back and forth thats why.

Also I was suprised EBA was failed to be mentioned in this thread. A lot of decks have been doing fairly well in Europe with a lot of different lists floating around. I had worked on the deck for quite some time when I really got into Vintage. The deck would annihilate combo with its disruption varying greatly and I would assume it has at least a decent match vs drains. Thoughts?

[Smmenen]

Every time stax drops out of the metagame, Fish does well.

When 3Sphere was restricted. the SCG events featured lots of Drain decks.

At the next two major tournaments, FIsh pwned - and then Stax returned and Fish subsided.

I think the combo/Drain environment we have right now has a great opening for Fish.

I would not be surprised to see FIsh do well at Rochester.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Shop Aggro should be outrageously good right now. It has a savage matchup against Drains if they just run good disruption like Duress and Pyrostatic Pillar, and can fight combo reasonably well with a decent board beucause it can support such a wide range of disruption. I ran it at Richmond and did well until round 5 when I ran into BBS with maindeck  Energy Flux, which dropped me to 3-2 and I dropped. And if people aren't packing hate for Ichorid right now, they deserve to lose horribly. The deck is wicked fast, but scoops to the right hate. Don't be terrible. Run Orb of Dreams, or Caltrops, or Tormod's Crypt, or Planar Void, or Echoing Truth, or something else to deal with it.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think the combo/Drain environment we have right now has a great opening for Fish.

I haven't seen this to be true since the printing of darkblast.  Perhaps there are lists that are impervious to this card, but most of the better placing fish lists were UW (and maybe /x) and they're best disruptive bodies, with the exception of meddling mage, had a toughness of 1.  Withered Wretch was also strong, but was difficult to accomodate a mana base to.

Could these lists be improved by making room for tormod's crypt and other underutilized disruption, I'd probably say yes.  Is there still an issue of finding a creature base that has these three attributes:

1) disruptive
2) cost effective
3) creates a reasonable clock

?

Yes.

Oh, and god help you if Friggorid makes up any part of your metagame.

[Smmenen]

I think the combo/Drain environment we have right now has a great opening for Fish.

I haven't seen this to be true since the printing of darkblast.  Perhaps there are lists that are impervious to this card, but most of the better placing fish lists were UW (and maybe /x) and they're best disruptive bodies, with the exception of meddling mage, had a toughness of 1.  Withered Wretch was also strong, but was difficult to accomodate a mana base to.

Could these lists be improved by making room for tormod's crypt and other underutilized disruption, I'd probably say yes.  Is there still an issue of finding a creature base that has these three attributes:

1) disruptive
2) cost effective
3) creates a reasonable clock

?

Yes.

Oh, and god help you if Friggorid makes up any part of your metagame.

Darkblast is reliant upno mana to cast it and it certainly doesn't stop meddling mage or true believer and Kataki has already done most of its work. 

Wasteland and Null ROd are the real reasons that Fish can reemerge.  Null ROd is a savage beating and Drain decks (see Shay's Slaver list) are once again very vulnerable to Wasteland attack.

Also, note that the shift from Pithing Needle to Tormod's Crypt and the destruction of the Time Vault combo just give Fish a stronger overall game. 

I just think alof of Drain players are scared of the inevitable surge in Fish.

Take a look at Becker's success with Fish.  I'm sure others can replicate the same. 

Fish is extremely consistent and highly disruptive for Drain decks. 

[MuzzonoAmi]

Also, alot of great disruption that Fish can support just isn't run. The best example of this is Abeyance, which can single-handedly beat many decks if you time it right. Flame Fusillade? Ok, Abeyance in response. Now you need to pay at least 6 to cast it again, provided you played it out of hand and not from you graveyard, and your Time Vault remains in play. The same goes for Will and Desire against Long. If Friggorid is a problem, kickered Orim's Chant works to RFG up to 4 guys from their yard. Fish can win, but it needs to adapt. Really, people just aren't being innovative with Aggro, and that's why it sucks.

[Joblin Velder]

You don't need to Abeyance in response to Fusilade. Your opponent is obviously too terrible for it to matter.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I was using it as an example of how it COULD HAVE BEEN used. Clearly, Fusillade is useless now.

[forests failed you]

The premiss of this entire thread disgusts me.

Agro is not inherently bad.
Fish is not an inherently bad deck.
Fish is a METAGAME deck designed to abuse cards that are disruptive toward the development of opposing Mana bases, while at the same time playing threats that put a floundering opponent on a fairly swift clock.


Could some particular builds of Fish be tweaked to perform better in the current metagame?  Yes, and that will be the Fish player who T8's in Rochester next month.

I hate blanket statements like:  "Insert deck name here" is a bad deck.  It just ins't so, any deck can be very powerful when in the hands of a player who understands how the deck works, what the deck is supposed to do, and how to properly metagame a deck for a particular enviornment.  Most importantly, decks are dangerous when a good player knows exactly why they selected that deck for a particular tournament based on some kind of logical conclusion.  That is the way of the champion.

Just because a large percentage of the players who play Fish tend to be scrubs, newbs, et cetera doesn't mean that fish isn't a good deck. 

Fish can only be as good as the person piloting the deck.  All I know is that I do very well against most decks when I playtest as the Fish deck; and I also know better than to say "Fish is a bad deck."  Its not.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Exactly. Some random dude piloting Fish may lead you to believe the deck sucks, but play a game or two against someone like Marc Perez and I'm sure the deck will look a lot better. If I were to play an aggro deck right now, it'd probably be U/W Fish or maybe U/G/W Threshold. Having StP and countermagic is real important to solving the Tinker>DSC metagame and you get a lot of other flexible tools in those builds. Just my uninformed opinion, though. Plus, as Stephen said, these tempo-oriented decks always flourish in Mana Drain metas, and we're certainly in one now.

[Whatever Works]

The premiss of this entire thread disgusts me.

Agro is not inherently bad.
Fish is not an inherently bad deck.
Fish is a METAGAME deck designed to abuse cards that are disruptive toward the development of opposing Mana bases, while at the same time playing threats that put a floundering opponent on a fairly swift clock.

Just because a large percentage of the players who play Fish tend to be scrubs, newbs, et cetera doesn't mean that fish isn't a good deck. 

Fish can only be as good as the person piloting the deck.  All I know is that I do very well against most decks when I playtest as the Fish deck; and I also know better than to say "Fish is a bad deck."  Its not.

Perfectly Said!

[Darkenslight]

Fish is an awesome deck...in the right metagame.  I want to play Fish in t2, which is now possible thanks to a couple of cards, such as:

Azorius Guildmage (u/w u/w)
Creature - Vedalken Wizard

{W}: tap target creature.
: counter target activated ability (Mana abilities can't be targeted).

2/2

I think this would be one of those auto-includes in a Fish Deck; perhaps even a U/W/b version, splashing for Bob and Disruption.

I can't come up with a decklist here, but I'm betting some other people can.  The only problem is a Waste-proof manabase.

[Jacob Orlove]

Closed by request.