[Single Card Discussion] Voidslime

[dicemanx]

I started this thread to have a discussion about a card that clearly has potential. For three mana I can't think of a better deal than "counter everything" aside from Necro, Yawgmoth's Will, and Tinker. This card by the way counters all three of them, Storm effects vs. Tendrils, Standstill vs. Fish, and it buys you a turn vs. Oath in the Mirror match. I'm not really sure how else to make my point. I mean three mana isn't really that expensive at all.

You made your point. People disagree with you on it though. 3 colored mana for an effect that maintains parity instead of breaking the game wide open is a prohibitive cost to pay.

This is about as far as any theoretical debate will go. If you want to strengthen your point, the burden of proof is on you now. Test the card, see for yourself if your initial claims are true, and report back here. Then there will be something worthy of extending the discussion. Otherwise, what sort of discussion are you hoping for?

[Jacob Orlove]

Consider this: control decks will side in Red Blast (rather than Counterspell) because being 1 mana cheaper is better than being able to counter more stuff, yet Voidslime is even further along on the "more mana for more targets" line than Counterspell is.

[ELD]

Anyone who doesn't see that voidslime is the best counter for type 1 ever is a stoopid noob.  I vote to start a petition to change the name of this site from "the mana drain" to "the voidslime."  Voidslime totally stops a slaver activation, where if you were playing mana drain, you'd have the UU open the turn before and drain it, then burn for 6 and die.  The examples are endless.

[policehq]

Mana Drain can't affect cards in play and Stifle can't counter creatures or spells. This can.

Voidslime doesn't give you important mana acceleration after you use it to counter one of their spills.

Voidslime doesn't become active until turn 3 on average.

Voidslime can't counter any activated abilities in time to mean anything.

Voidslime can't counter any triggered abilities without losing card advantage or being countered.

Voidslime can't be played turn 1.

Mana Drain, Stifle, and Force of Will can do some of these things.

Again tell me what activated abilities Voidslime hurts...

-hq

[sa17dk]

Look, my point is simply that you guys seem to get more pleasure out of proving me wrong than even taking the time to test the card before you start flaming me. It's a hard counter
and amazingly versatile as well.

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

I cant believe you would call me arrogant while ignoring what he just said.

And yes, I am arrogant the only difference between me and the posers flaming me is that I'll admit it.

Actually the comment about arrogance was directed at R Thomas.

On topic: We dont take pleasure in telling you the card sucks. You think we do because the majority of us tell you so. You say we are dismissing your card without even testing it. Have you even tested it? Remember, all the burden of proof is on you, not us.

[ashiXIII]

Can't we just lock the thread at this point? Obviously, the card's not viable, and it's just a bunch of arguing back and forth with Ben Kossman on one side, and the rest of the Vintage community on the other. I'm getting tired of opening this thread to see the child-like banter of:
 "This card's good!"
 "No it's not!"
"Yes it is! You're dumb!!!"

[Evenpence]

Ben:

Voidslime is a good card.  It counters spells (which is good) and Triggered or Activated Abilities (also good).

However, it is too costly.  That's not an opinion.  Seriously, it's really way too costly.  If it were 1U, it would be played in Vintage.  It might even be played at UU, but at UG it's boarderline bad, and UUG is just downright bad.

[lordmayhem]

I can't decide if this discussion is hilarious or amazingly depressing. The damn card doesn't look viable in the least bit thanks to its awkward costing, there is no proof of it being viable except for insistence that its good (as ashiXIII pointed out, its childish banter), and the comparison to Tinker, Will and Necro is immensely flawed.

If any comparison should be drawn up, it should be to Vindicate, not game-breaking spells. And for what its worth, Vindicate handles permanents in play better than Voidslime can hope to, and at an easier casting cost.

I just think this card is crap for Vintage and unless Ben (or anyone else) can explain why I should think otherwise, hopefully with a decent logical argument, some proof and maturity, then that opinion isn't going to change anytime soon. And I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this.

[Implacable]

I can't decide if this discussion is hilarious or amazingly depressing. The damn card doesn't look viable in the least bit thanks to its awkward costing, there is no proof of it being viable except for insistence that its good (as ashiXIII pointed out, its childish banter), and the comparison to Tinker, Will and Necro is immensely flawed.

If any comparison should be drawn up, it should be to Vindicate, not game-breaking spells. And for what its worth, Vindicate handles permanents in play better than Voidslime can hope to, and at an easier casting cost.

I just think this card is crap for Vintage and unless Ben (or anyone else) can explain why I should think otherwise, hopefully with a decent logical argument, some proof and maturity, then that opinion isn't going to change anytime soon. And I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this.

Amen.  As Ash said, this thread should be locked.  Nobody but the OP is going to say that this card has any merit whatsoever.

[Khahan]

Mana Drain can't affect cards in play and Stifle can't counter creatures or spells. This can.

However, Force of Will and Mana drain can stop permanents from coming into play, completely negating any potential 'in play' effects.

You've given your argument as to why its useful. And I don't think anybody disagrees with you. It is a useful card. But that alone does not make it usable.

At a CC of GUU, which would you rather have in your  hand on turn 1: Force of will or voidslime   or stifle vs voidslime
on turn 2: force of will, mana drain, mana leak, void slime   or stifle vs voidslime
on turn 3 (when, in most decks you are either about to win or need your mana open to set up gifts etc):
Force of will, mana drain or voidslime    stifle or voidslime


Can you tap out on turn 2 or 3 to tinker and still cast voidslime?   No. But you can do it with FoW
Can you pass on turn 2, 3 or 4 then counter your opponents spell and then on your turn have acceleration into gifts?
Not with voidslime, but you can with mana drain.

Can you, on turn 1 or 2, leave U open and stop a waste or fetchland activation?  Not with voidslime, but you can with Stifle.

What about turn 6? Can you have the UUG online by turn 6 for voidslime?  In oath, yes. In any other current deck? No. So its not even an option in those other decks.  And in Oath, this MAY deserve a slot if testing shows its strong.  My testing has shown it IS strong in those long games for late turns. My testing has also shown that drawing it in the first 3-4 turns means you have a dead card in hand and your opponent is slipping a pretty good spell past your defenses.

In current decks, it is useful, but not usable based on all that.
Can you tell us why it IS usable?

[Whatever Works]

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

Heh, I'd rather him be playing vintage. I like free wins.

These are the kind of asshole remarks that keep new players from playing type 1. You both should be ashamed of yourselfs. This topic was posted on the IMPROVEMENT Forum, and here you are ripping apart a person who just offered up an interesting idea. How practicle the cards uses are or not you should NEVER attack the player that just is mean and discouraging.

All you had to say politely was:  I do not believe the card Voidslime is a playable card in type 1. I believe this BECAUSE of its prohibitive mana cost, color requirements, and the fact that there are currently better options availible to most type 1 decks that abuse synergy/efficiency like Mana Drain, FoW, Stifle, etc. Its an interesting card but I dont see this swiss army knife of a card in type 1 because of the fast speed of the format.

Saying that would have been alot better, more HELPFUL, and POLITE then what has been said on this forum. Very dissapointing.

Kyle L.

[Ben Kossman]

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

Heh, I'd rather him be playing vintage. I like free wins.

These are the kind of asshole remarks that keep new players from playing type 1. You both should be ashamed of yourselfs. This topic was posted on the IMPROVEMENT Forum, and here you are ripping apart a person who just offered up an interesting idea. How practicle the cards uses are or not you should NEVER attack the player that just is mean and discouraging.

All you had to say politely was:  I do not believe the card Voidslime is a playable card in type 1. I believe this BECAUSE of its prohibitive mana cost, color requirements, and the fact that there are currently better options availible to most type 1 decks that abuse synergy/efficiency like Mana Drain, FoW, Stifle, etc. Its an interesting card but I dont see this swiss army knife of a card in type 1 because of the fast speed of the format.

Saying that would have been alot better, more HELPFUL, and POLITE then what has been said on this forum. Very dissapointing.

Kyle L.

Thanks. Okay fine. You guys have ruled out one more card out of the format. When someone who actually gets the opportunity to play on a regular basis (unlike me) drops this card on you "out of the blue" don't say a word.

[Tha Gunslinga]

What do you find yourself often needing to Stifle?

[mgouthro]

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

Heh, I'd rather him be playing vintage. I like free wins.

These are the kind of asshole remarks that keep new players from playing type 1. You both should be ashamed of yourselfs. This topic was posted on the IMPROVEMENT Forum, and here you are ripping apart a person who just offered up an interesting idea. How practicle the cards uses are or not you should NEVER attack the player that just is mean and discouraging.

All you had to say politely was:  I do not believe the card Voidslime is a playable card in type 1. I believe this BECAUSE of its prohibitive mana cost, color requirements, and the fact that there are currently better options availible to most type 1 decks that abuse synergy/efficiency like Mana Drain, FoW, Stifle, etc. Its an interesting card but I dont see this swiss army knife of a card in type 1 because of the fast speed of the format.

Oh please, try not taking my comment out of context next time. You conveniently chopped the next paragraph off that quote which started off with "Honestly speaking". Kind of suggests the previous sentence might not be serious, but I guess some people like to over-react to stuff like that. Furthermore, I went on to explain my reasoning of why I don't think the card is playable in vintage. So thanks Dad. Next time you have an issue with one of my posts, feel free to PM me or a moderator. Hmm...I'm not sure this is even worthy to be a post in the forums, so I'll finish by adding some content.

Voidslime: UUG.
- biggest problem I see is the coloured casting cost requirement. If this were not two different colours and two of one colour as well, it might see some play, but above FoW, Mana Drain, Mana Leak? It's usually tough finding 8 spots for disruption and generally you want them on-line as fast as possible. Stifle is rarely played already because it's too situational.
- next problem is the G in the casting cost. Outside of current 5 colour manabases, not that many decks actually play green. Of those, not that many are actually good. Oath is the best of them that I can think of. 5 colour mana bases usually involve the pain of City of Brass and the disappearing act of Gemstone Mine. Would I really want to cast this spell off those lands?
- next problem is that it's a counterspell or stifle effect that doesn't get on-line until past what I think are the critical turns in vintage. I think you are lucky to be able to get this spell on line for turn 3, especially considering that most decks run some strip effects.

However, I freely admit that I could be wrong about this. It just may find a nice home somewhere, but it's beyond me to find it. If it ever does get played against me, I'll get a good chuckle thinking back to this thread. There's a tournament here next week. I'll let you know if it's played.

[ashiXIII]

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

Heh, I'd rather him be playing vintage. I like free wins.

These are the kind of asshole remarks that keep new players from playing type 1. You both should be ashamed of yourselfs. This topic was posted on the IMPROVEMENT Forum, and here you are ripping apart a person who just offered up an interesting idea. How practicle the cards uses are or not you should NEVER attack the player that just is mean and discouraging.

All you had to say politely was:  I do not believe the card Voidslime is a playable card in type 1. I believe this BECAUSE of its prohibitive mana cost, color requirements, and the fact that there are currently better options availible to most type 1 decks that abuse synergy/efficiency like Mana Drain, FoW, Stifle, etc. Its an interesting card but I dont see this swiss army knife of a card in type 1 because of the fast speed of the format.

Saying that would have been alot better, more HELPFUL, and POLITE then what has been said on this forum. Very dissapointing.

Kyle L.

You know what, though.. This isn't a fair statement either, Kyle. There were MANY people who told him they didn't think the card was playable and why they felt that way. He responded by pretty much saying their opinions are wrong and worthless, and that he's right, this card is awesome. He was asking for these statements, and he deserves them. I realize this is the IMPROVEMENT forum, but he's not trying to improve. He's simply disregarding over a dozen opinions of different people because they're not the same as his.

[policehq]

You know what, though.. This isn't a fair statement either, Kyle. There were MANY people who told him they didn't think the card was playable and why they felt that way. He responded by pretty much saying their opinions are wrong and worthless, and that he's right, this card is awesome. He was asking for these statements, and he deserves them. I realize this is the IMPROVEMENT forum, but he's not trying to improve. He's simply disregarding over a dozen opinions of different people because they're not the same as his.

And does so in pretty much every discussion that he's started.

It's not like this is the first we've heard of Ben Kossman, or that this is someone just buying a few packs of Dissension and interested in Vintage play. He posted a really bad version of an Ichorid deck about two months ago, and his Demonic Consultation Sui-Black toolbox deck can still be found on the first page of this forum.

-hq

[Ben Kossman]

Look, I tend to be a little overzealous in defending my ideas. I apologize to anyone that thinks I was rude or whatever.
Yes, the cc could be an issue in the early game. There I said it (I actually said it in my last post) but you guys didn't have to be assholes either.

[Implacable]

Look, I tend to be a little overzealous in defending my ideas. I apologize to anyone that thinks I was rude or whatever.
Yes, the cc could be an issue in the early game. There I said it (I actually said it in my last post) but you guys didn't have to be assholes either.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the 'early game' is the game in most of Type 1.  Against Shops, Tendrils, or Combo-Control, the first 3-4 turns will determine the victor.  Again, in my opinion, it is very difficult to get Voidslime active in those first couple turns while keeping up the pressure on your opponent.  Mana Drain is the only counterspell that is played in Type 1 that costs two colored mana and is played.  This is because it keeps up the pressure on your opponent and also stops them.  A card that does not do that should not be played.

[Fred The Ev]

Look, I tend to be a little overzealous in defending my ideas. I apologize to anyone that thinks I was rude or whatever.
Yes, the cc could be an issue in the early game. There I said it (I actually said it in my last post) but you guys didn't have to be assholes either.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the 'early game' is the game in most of Type 1. Against Shops, Tendrils, or Combo-Control, the first 3-4 turns will determine the victor. Again, in my opinion, it is very difficult to get Voidslime active in those first couple turns while keeping up the pressure on your opponent. Mana Drain is the only counterspell that is played in Type 1 that costs two colored mana and is played. This is because it keeps up the pressure on your opponent and also stops them. A card that does not do that should not be played.

And mana drain isn't even considered to be strong by some serious magic players, as it is to easy to play around and to clunky (Randy Bhueler). Put simply, voidslime is clunkier than the clunkiest counter playable in type 1 (mana drain) and why would you want to pay that one extra mana for voidslime, when you could play mana drain, which will likely win you the game next turn?

[Tha Gunslinga]

What do you find yourself often needing to Stifle?

[ELD]

Just wanted to point out that counterspell is pretty much trash in type 1.  Dawned on me that there was a good chance that the people rallying behind voidslime probably don't know that.  Any roll counterspell would play is taken by mana leak, entirely because of the difference between a colorless and a U mana.  If someone can't see that mana costs are that important, the their opinions really have no weight at all.  To reiterate, Counterspell's effect is far superior to mana leaks effect, yet in type 1 leak is better cause it's faster, not all the time, but some of the time.  Can't spell it out any clearer than that.

[Draven]

And mana drain isn't even considered to be strong by some serious magic players, as it is to easy to play around and to clunky (Randy Bhueler).

Wow...

[Implacable]

And mana drain isn't even considered to be strong by some serious magic players, as it is to easy to play around and to clunky (Randy Bhueler).

Wow...

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10179.html

I point you to the man's answer to Question #1.  While saying that 'Mana Drain isn't good' isn't true, it is an inferior card even in decks commonly construed as control.  If Gifts has trouble paying for Drain, then how can Voidslime even be considered?

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, enough. Closed.