[Deck] ICBM Oath, or 12 easy steps to win Rochester

[AngryPheldagrif]

I'm too lazy to write an article, too busy to actually drive or fly up to Rochester, and promised a bunch of people an Oath thread, so here it is. For background, since the last thread, the deck has won/split at least 4 pieces of power between me and my brother as well as numerous T8s between us and the couple of our teammates who tried it out. I honestly do think this is the best deck you could bring to Rochester but I'll just make this quick list for your reference.

Reasons to play Oath at Rochester:
Munching on delicious Control Slaver players.
Beating the crap out of people with T2 creatures and the mythical 'attack phase'.
Making sushi out of the Fish players with Simic Sushi Swallower^(tm)
It's a really really good deck that almost no one plays.

Reasons not to play Oath at Rochester:
You think Oath is a really easy deck that you can pick up the night before and do fine with.
You panic at the first glimpse of Waterfront Bouncer or Extract.
You'd rather be one of the 100 people playing CS.
You don't live in North America.


That said, here is the current list:

ICBM Oath v.3.14159

Mana:
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Win:
4 Oath of Druids
1 Razia
1 Akroma
1 Gaea's Blessing

Active control:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Rod
3 Duress

Reactive control:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Draw/Manipulation:
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

Tutors/other:
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Rushing River

Sideboard:
2 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oxidize
1 Rushing River
1 Darkblast
5-7 Metagame slots, depending on if you like Tinker/Colossus or not

I don't think I need to remind you how the deck works fundamentally, since swinging for 6, 12, and if necessary another 12 seems rudimentary. The main distinction between this deck and traditional Oath builds is that it is loaded with powerful control complements in both the proactive and reactive categories. While the draw engine is not made to keep up with the focused machinery of Gifts or Slaver, it allows the deck to compete well into the mid-late game until you can finally pop out the ol' Angel plan. The primary plan is still to play aggressively, though, so mulligan accordingly.

The same people who accuse Oath of being 'too easy' are the same ones who either lose to it or lose with it. Oath may appear simple in action, but it has probably the hardest mulligan decisions of any deck in the format. You need to practice the hell out of the deck until you can know the exact value of any given hand and whether or not you're likely to get a better one with the next 6. While Simic Sky Swallower helps enormously, navigating the hate is still an acquired skill. I would suggest getting as many practice matches in as possible and including as broad and versatile a sideboard as possible for preparing for Rochester or other tournaments.

Changes of interest or debate:

0 Mystical Tutor: I cut this card after a lot of thought and it remains a very difficult call. The basic problem with Mystical is that it does absolutely nothing efficiently. Finding Recall is incredibly weak in this deck, it can't find Oath or Orchard without wasting a boatload of tempo, and doesn't find the bombs of Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will, mostly because I don't play them. I prefer the third Duress at the moment, especially for a controlling meta.

1 Basic Island: The only time basics are really relevant anymore are the rare Stax matchups, and that is not enough reason at the moment. Cutting the Mystical means losing a shuffle effect, so adding a Fetch balances things out.

Matchups for y'all to debate me on:

Slaver: There is no reason you should be losing to Slaver except for unbelieveable god draws (2-3rd turn Slaving with counter backup, etc). Virtually every card in your deck crushes them and their sideboard hate is not that hard to get around with practice. Oath has been Slaver's archnemesis since its inception. Win or else.

Gifts: Better against you than Slaver since they are faster and have better control pieces, but still favorable for you with your artifact-based control. Null Rod is a real beating for the deck since you can race Tinker/Colossus making Tendrils the default choice. Boarding changes little since you should still have your extra anti-control pieces.

Stax: Depends on the build, with Uba being a lot easier than 5c. Things like Ray of Revelation, Seal of Cleansing, and such are infinitely scarier than Granite Shard, Jester's Cap, etc ever will be. Overall in your favor for the most part except for the better metagamed 5c builds which are luckily the rarest.

Fish: Used to be a pain in the ass, but Simic Sky Swallower makes the match so heavily lopsided in your favor, rendering Stormscape Apprentice, Waterfront Bouncer, Gilded Drake, StP, and all that utterly useless. Watch out for maindeck hate stealing game one and of course the ever-annoying Meddling Mage. I like to keep a token Massacre in my board to go along with the Balance just for kicks.

GrimLong: They can beat you with a very nice draw, otherwise you will destroy them 99% of the time where you see a turn. Every control piece in your deck absolutely devastates them.

IT/TPS: A matchup that swings heavily on the Oath player's playskill. Basically, one of three things happens. A) The Oath player gets a good prison game going with Chalices and keeps a handy counter for the Rebuild and wins on inevitability. B) IT player keeps a more solid but unremarkable hand and simply gets raced. C) Oath player falls behind and gets steamrolled. I tend to encounter these situations about evenly, so theoretically it should be in the Oath player's favor, but this matchup requires the most experience to get used to. I've faced most of the GWS crew running IT so I have an edge that a lot of Oath pilots lack. On a sidenote, the more combo-oriented or janky the build (this covered most things leaning towards standard TPS rather than IT), the more it is in the Oath player's advantage.

Ichorid: I really hate this matchup and refuse to test it extensively on the sole basis of its asininity, but if you really need to know it ranges from even to hugely in Oath player's favor depending on what kind of answers they run. Chalice for 1 is your friend here because Chain of Vapor is their default way of not losing to an on-board Oath and Cabal Therapy is their default way of preventing it from resolving. Wastelands help hugely in this match. Keep Bazaar off the board and you're probably going to win. Sideboarded Rays of Revelation do not really shift the match worth anything, it's still mostly a question of preventing them from getting the engine running since Akroma has this wonderful thing about blocking and attacking at the same time.

Izzetron: Is not a T1 deck, but it is amazing in T2 so it will beat you for some reason.

On a last serious note, the reason to play this deck at Rochester is because it has virtually no bad matchups right now. 2 of the most popular archetypes (Fish and CS) which will probably be half the decks there are great for this deck to face. Random things are not likely to beat this. Around here, Oath is becoming so prevalent that I had to face a Fish deck with literally 25 anti-Oath cards in the T4 at the last tournament. I won anyways. And that was without Sky Swallower.

If nothing else, discuss. You know you want to. Tell me why I'm wrong and my deck is bad and loses to CS. *insert provacative comment in support of Time Vault errata*

[Harlequin]

Point of nit-picking:
I think, as a community, we need to stop changing how we define control cards.  It seems like people generaly as sloppy in what they say, and It's starting to become a pet peive of mine.

Lets start with....
Select Deffinitions from Dictionary.com

Proactive:
Acting in advance to deal with an expected difficulty; anticipatory.

Active:
Currently in use or effect
Producing an intended action or effect
-> Erupting or liable to erupt; not dormant: "an active volcano."

Reactive:
Tending to be responsive or to react to a stimulus

So carrying THAT into M:tG...

Proactive Control ---  Something YOU cast first, to make an anticipation on what you will need to contorl.  Good examples: Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle*, Chalice of the Void, Duress, Null Rod* (* - see reactive).

Active Control --- Some you do to interact with threats on the stack.  Examples: Anything with the word "counter" in the text box.  Also I would put something like Tormod's Crypt in here because It is one time use, and generally used in response to other spells or effects.

Reactive Control --- Something you do to neutralize a threat already in play.  Good Examples: Bounce, Destruction, Removeal, Dirrect Damage, sometimes Null Rod or Pithing Needle (if your useing it after a threat is already in play).

[/nitpickery]
===========================================================

Gramar aside, I think you have many valid points.  As you have said, a deck like this is not for amatures, It dances between the quickness of "Combo-Oath" and the stability of "Control-Oath."  Therefor It would take a more veteraned player to understand what role you are going to assume for any given match.  I think players too often lump all oath decks into "Combo-Oath."  Combo-Oath has simply been overshadowed by the new and improved Grim Tutor powered combo (IT & GLong). 

I have also been on the fence about mystical tutor for quite some time.  I have opted to include MT and FOF, simply so I have something to tutor for if I happen to find Recall before Mystical. 

The only warning sign I see is that "the deck has difficult muligan decissions."  More times then not, that is a nice way of saying "The deck has consistancy issues."   Have you experianced consistancy strain at all? or are the thirsts and tutors enough to "fix" less than optimal hands.

[AngryPheldagrif]

The mulligan issue is an interesting. One of the trademarks of decks I've built going back before Gilded Claw to my MaskNought decks of old is in the extremely high power level of the cards. Oath can take a mulligan very easy because the curve is incredibly low and the key cards are plentiful.

[zeus-online]

Just wondering...Which piece of hate do you...well "hate" to see, most?

I've been wondering for a long time which piece of hate would be the most effective.

Also, against which decks exactly do you consider sideboarding in the SSS's ?

/Zeus

[Kelme]

Hey.

First of all thanks for an in-depth card and match up explanation. It was quite informative.

I recently t4 with a version quite like yours however with 4x impulse and 4x mana leaks instead. It worked fine as it allowed me quite explosive starts.

Well now I have one question; if I "panic at the first glimpse of Waterfront Bouncer or Extract" how do you solve that? I mean, what options do you have preboard. Obviously ruining their mana base, saving a brainstorm, but what else?

Secondly I have, as you, been playing 2x massacre sb, and they are the best shotgun vs fish i could find.



Kelme

[kombat]

As a longtime Oath player (my build is almost identical, except I run Muddle the Mixture instead of Duress), I've found the post-sideboard matchups much more difficult.  How do you deal with Engineered Plague with only a single Rushing River maindeck and another in the sideboard (assuming you had the foresight to side it in)?

[Harlequin]

I think the pre-board plan to avoid maindeck swords + extract would basically be Chalice for 1.  The only problem there is you could be treading on thin ice if you cut off all your brainstorms.  Perhaps 1-2 Lat-Nam's Legacy would improve the confidence in chalice for 1.  I could be wrong about the chalice though, In that I have never pioleted this build before.

As far as Impluse, Muddle, and Leak.  Anyone else toying around with Remand in oath?  I have just started testing it, and I think it fits quite nice, perhaps better than leak.  Not sure though... both are amazing in the early game and situationally dead in the late game.  But the remand cantrip cannot be ignored.

[Kelme]

"I think the pre-board plan to avoid maindeck swords + extract would basically be Chalice for 1.  The only problem there is you could be treading on thin ice if you cut off all your brainstorms.  Perhaps 1-2 Lat-Nam's Legacy would improve the confidence in chalice for 1.  I could be wrong about the chalice though, In that I have never pioleted this build before."

Definitely a viable solution. However in doing so, you have to have confidence in resolving oath of druids as you shut off both 1-3 tutors, brainstorm and recall which all are quite important pieces in oath.

yeah I have being replacing 2x null rod for 2x remand, and they assuredly fit nicely into the -everything-is-a-time-walk plan, though their effect on the state of the game is not comparable to null rods. exactly as you yourself stated.

I think that ICBM oath has (many) advantages as thirst for knowledge in it self allows for a good mid-game.

[Kelme]

Hey, sorry to double post. 

I do not however think that remand can replace neither mana leak or mana drain, as there are many must-counter targets where not even timewalking is viable solution.

Oath must be able to completely stop some threats. Not delay them.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Just wondering...Which piece of hate do you...well "hate" to see, most?

I've been wondering for a long time which piece of hate would be the most effective.

It's a very tough question. Oath is a lot harder to hate than people think. The most effective things are those that blow up Oath such as Ray of Revelation and Seal of Cleansing. Still, white mana is not so plentiful in T1. One of the reasons I think Oath is so incredible right now is that Simic Sky Swallower just doesn't die. It solves all the problems of Pristine Angel for the very reasonable cost of lack of Vigilance.

One of the more innovative pieces of hate I've been seeing lately is Ensnaring Bridge. I've seen a lot of lesser Oath players simply get wrecked by the card. It is very painful, but most of the time you should be able to Oxidize it or bounce it if it manages to resolve.

Also, against which decks exactly do you consider sideboarding in the SSS's ?

/Zeus

Fish, probably Stax, and anything that I strongly suspect will be boarding in any sort of substantial creature hate.

Well now I have one question; if I "panic at the first glimpse of Waterfront Bouncer or Extract" how do you solve that? I mean, what options do you have preboard. Obviously ruining their mana base, saving a brainstorm, but what else?

That is what a sideboard is for. Think of Extract as a mulligan to 6 for them. Unless they can resolve two of them through your Chalices, Forces, Drains, and Duresses you're fine. And if they can you're probably losing anyways. Bouncer is painful. Just try to keep recycling Angels and run them out of cards, then win with Time Walk. Post board it should be dead.

As a longtime Oath player (my build is almost identical, except I run Muddle the Mixture instead of Duress), I've found the post-sideboard matchups much more difficult.  How do you deal with Engineered Plague with only a single Rushing River maindeck and another in the sideboard (assuming you had the foresight to side it in)?

Please don't run Muddle on top of a set of Drains, they clog up your hand.

The best way of dealing with things like Plague is preventing them from resolving. You're probably having problems with it because you don't have Duress. Also, people underestimate the importance of creatures in Vintage. If CS dropped a Plague against me I would laugh. Then I would drop Null Rod and watch as they utterly fail to win without creatures. Also, you can always board in the Sky Swallowers and hardcast them via Drain or a bunch of Moxen.

I think the pre-board plan to avoid maindeck swords + extract would basically be Chalice for 1.  The only problem there is you could be treading on thin ice if you cut off all your brainstorms.  Perhaps 1-2 Lat-Nam's Legacy would improve the confidence in chalice for 1.  I could be wrong about the chalice though, In that I have never pioleted this build before.

Chalice for 1 cuts those off nicely and should not hurt you. If you need to ditch Angels you always have Thirst plus Blessing. That is another reason Thirst is better than Impulse in this deck.

yeah I have being replacing 2x null rod for 2x remand, and they assuredly fit nicely into the -everything-is-a-time-walk plan, though their effect on the state of the game is not comparable to null rods. exactly as you yourself stated.

PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. Null Rod is absolutely pivotal to the deck's success. Remand is, well, bad. This is nowhere near the tempo deck GWS Oath was and even they admitted Remand was bad in their build. Remand is horribly inferior to virtually every possible replacement, does not auto-win against CS and Gifts, and most importantly does not pitch to Thirst.

I do not however think that remand can replace neither mana leak or mana drain, as there are many must-counter targets where not even timewalking is viable solution.

This is very true. Time Walk seems like one of the most powerful cards in the deck but is infact usually win more.

Oath must be able to completely stop some threats. Not delay them.

Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Thanks guys!

[Harlequin]

I definately prefer a control heavy oath, and I typically am not thrilled with Mana leak.  Right now my main deck disruption package is:

4 Force
4 Drain
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Remand
2 Misdirrection

And I only run 5 artifact mana (lotus, petal, mox U, G ,W)

Remand is very nice for the counter war, becuase remanding a drain is nice, but remanding a force (even if they replay it) is good.  If they replay it you go +2 card advantage.  

When It comes down to it, you only need to actually resolve ONE spell.  so remand is nice for throwing back Drains and the like.  Once oath is on the board, you may not play another spell for the rest of the game... it is rare they will have UUUU open to double drain.  All you need is 2GU to play oath protected by remand, after that who cares if they have a drain i hand... your oathing!  

I am terrible at sliding off topic... but I guess its still discussing "control" oath, just with heavy active control and light proactive control vrs ICBM Oath wich has a nicer mix of Proactive and active.

Edit: After reading your response (which was posted while i was making mine).  I definately agree with what you've said.  I don't advocate trying to create some hybrid of mono-blue control oath, and ICBM oath.  I think your balance is right for that playstyle.  I guess I'm just posting yet a 3rd approach that I am currently testing as a comparison to what you have built.

[Tha Gunslinga]

One of the best things you can do is untap, upkeep trigger Oath, and then Mana Drain your opponent's upkeep Swords to Plowshares, Echoing Truth, or Rushing River.  Mana Leak and Remand don't automatically counter these, especially Echoing and StP, but Drain totally stops them.

[AngryPheldagrif]

The problem with Remand is that UG2 is a fortune in a mana-light deck. Turn one Duress, turn 2 Oath is a lot more streamlined and accomplishs the same thing. Plus if you Remand a Force and they have another blue card you lose it anyways, nevermind the cost to them.

The idea of the deck isn't to gain card advantage. It's to win before your opponent can establish theirs.

[Kelme]

PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS.

I wont then .

It was just for testing, not seriously. Id never cut null rod in this build.

You mention cutting mystical tutor. This makes sense I think however concluding to my experiences, many of oaths sb cards, are extremely game breaking  cards or even win conditions, Like tutor for massacre, tutor for tinker, tutor for darkblast, tutor for rushing river, or w/e. 

Could mystical tutor be a sb option for smoothing out alternate sb strategies?

"One of the best things you can do is untap, upkeep trigger Oath, and then Mana Drain your opponent's upkeep Swords to Plowshares, Echoing Truth, or Rushing River.  Mana Leak and Remand don't automatically counter these, especially Echoing and StP, but Drain totally stops them."

-which is why I must conclude that this build those have this inherent advantage over the build i played with then(-4 drains, +4 mana leak), however not in the situations where you actually resolve oath on your turn 1 where you do not have the mana for resolving mana drain. In that situation mana leak appears superior.

- In that situation if playing against fish: You have just resolved turn 1 oath, the opponent goes: flooded strand. Would you oath? or would you wait till drain comes online?



Thank you.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Them Swordsing your first Angel in that situation is subject to a million things that render Mana Leak's advantage largely moot. First of all, you are assuming that you played Oath off Orchard and Mox first turn. In this case you are probably winning anyways regardless of what they do. Also, Swordsing one Angel does not actually accomplish a whole lot in and of itself. It buys them a turn, but then you get the next Angel and can probably protect it better even if they get a second answer.

Realistically, Orchard+Mox+Oath is going to happen probably once or twice per tournament at max. The deck lets you defend the Angels before and after Oath hits. Upkeep Swords is not going to happen if you Duressed them first or better yet landed a Chalice at 1.

The primary purpose of Mana Drain is not to protect Angels. Force, Duress, and Chalice do that. Mana Drain's purpose is to prevent your opponent from winning until Oath hits and their life total reaches zero. This is where you want a hard counter over a Mana Leak.

[Harlequin]

What's you plan in the Oath v Oath match? 

Added Bounce?
Sky Swallowers?
Tinker/DSC?
Bombardment, Pit, niehter?
Null Rods in or Out?
Chalice in or Out (if in what do you set too)?

How does it change based on ICBM Mirror, or GWS?

[Mr. Nightmare]

What's you plan in the Oath v Oath match? 

Added Bounce?
Sky Swallowers?
Tinker/DSC?
Bombardment, Pit, niehter?
Null Rods in or Out?
Chalice in or Out (if in what do you set too)?

How does it change based on ICBM Mirror, or GWS?

I'm also very interested in this.  It seems probable to see Oath mirrors at Rochester.  Additionally:

Do you side out Oaths?  If so, how many?
What is your most feared matchup, and why?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Not to dodge the question, but I'm horribly confused. Half the people I'm talking to say that there will be virtually no Oath. The other half says it will be everywhere.

As for the mirror, there really isn't a definite strategy. I will say to go with your guy even though it probably doesn't help you. Anything you do risks getting trumped by what they do and vise versa. Keep in Angels and they get bounced. Put in SSS and it gets eaten by Akroma. There is no actual plan. As I always say, 'wing it'.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Not to dodge the question, but I'm horribly confused. Half the people I'm talking to say that there will be virtually no Oath. The other half says it will be everywhere.

Its because the first half is so vocal that the second half exists.  If everyone expects to see lots of CS, then Oath is the natural choice, but if a lot of people reach that conclusion, I'd rather at least be prepared for the mirror.

[Moriarty]

Your build looks good but lacks persistence. I would personally run more draw and fewer Chalices/Rods. You seem to be assuming that those two hate components will slow your opponent down for long enough, or even win you the game all by themself. But IMO Oath can't play the long control game, not with 4 Orchards and a weak draw engine like yours. That's right, I consider Spirit tokens important. The Chalices and Rods are good for getting you some of the way, but against properly constructed decks they will slow you down just as much, and if you lose the first counter war you will run out of steam and not recover before it's too late.

You also seem to be assuming that Fish will not adapt to Sky Swallowers.

[Kelme]

For the oath mirror, I have had some recent succes boarding in life from the loam, as I think that an oath mirror is decided either through resource management, topdecks, luck and playskill-

Life from the loam enables resource management very decently.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Your build looks good but lacks persistence. I would personally run more draw and fewer Chalices/Rods. You seem to be assuming that those two hate components will slow your opponent down for long enough, or even win you the game all by themself. But IMO Oath can't play the long control game, not with 4 Orchards and a weak draw engine like yours. That's right, I consider Spirit tokens important. The Chalices and Rods are good for getting you some of the way, but against properly constructed decks they will slow you down just as much, and if you lose the first counter war you will run out of steam and not recover before it's too late.

You also seem to be assuming that Fish will not adapt to Sky Swallowers.

Uh, Oath doesn't need to play the long control game. It wins. If I wanted to play the long control game I wouldn't be playing Oath. What the heck do you mean 'Chalices and Rods. . .they will slow you down just as much'? I don't play any artifacts other than a bare 5 Moxen and Lotus. You do not appear to understand the fundamental concepts behind the deck, and I do not mean this as an attack in any way. Count how many control cards I play. Count how many CS plays. When I am playing the Oath, they have to have more counters than I do because I win on ties. I usually win.

The concept behind this version of Oath is not taking CS or Gifts into extremely drawn out games, though it is not wholely incapable of that, but to survive into the midgame in case Oath doesn't come up or you do end up losing the first Oath to a control-heavy opponent.

And if nothing else, I am not assuming anything. I know that Null Rod+Chalice+Full counter package+Waste/Strip+Duress slows them down long enough for me to win. Otherwise Oath would be a horrible deck. It's a 2 card combo, one of which is uncounterable (and often unnecessary) and the other is a two mana enchantment with a single colored mana in it's cost. I run four of each and multiple tutors as well as a very sufficient draw engine. That is why Oath works.

On a final note, how does Fish adapt to SSS? It is immune to anything targeted, has a huge body with 2 forms of evasion, and even if they can keep Oath from activating, it hardcasts off my 2 main colors. SSS is absolutely the best thing Oath could have hoped for realistically.

[policehq]

I could see sui-black or B/X Fish playing Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, etc. etc. to get around Simic's untargetability this Rochester. Curfew has been mentioned a few times, but I think it's clunky.

Diabolic Edict, though, is the ultimate Simic eater.

EDIT: Problem is, it's ONLY effective against Dragon, Oath, and maybe Slaver.

-hq

[AngryPheldagrif]

I could see sui-black or B/X Fish playing Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, etc. etc. to get around Simic's untargetability this Rochester. Curfew has been mentioned a few times, but I think it's clunky.

Diabolic Edict, though, is the ultimate Simic eater.

EDIT: Problem is, it's ONLY effective against Dragon, Oath, and maybe Slaver.

-hq

I'm pretty sure a bigger problem will be that they just beat you to death with the other one and/or re-Oath up the first one.

[yespuhyren]

Out of curiosity, what are your bad matchups?  By what you say in the initial post, you have a good game against everthing except for T2 Izzet.  If so, than this deck should destroy the field and any really good oath player should T8 no problem?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Out of curiosity, what are your bad matchups?  By what you say in the initial post, you have a good game against everthing except for T2 Izzet.  If so, than this deck should destroy the field and any really good oath player should T8 no problem?

I'm hoping someone can help me with that first part because I've come up blank. I randomly decided to pick the deck up again a month ago and won the first two tournaments I entered. The only match I lost was as a result of a judge call, not an actual deck issue. And those were before SSS became legal.

[yespuhyren]

Thats awesome then.  Good job with the deck.  I might have to start SB'ing Bombardments if people play this more.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Out of curiosity, what are your bad matchups? 

Gifts, before they axed Time Vault.

5-C Stax, when it runs Ray sb and massive amounts of hate MD.

[policehq]

I'm pretty sure a bigger problem will be that they just beat you to death with the other one and/or re-Oath up the first one.

It's not my plan, but it's a viable answer to gain tempo in decks that are centered around it (URBana Fish, U/B Fish, B/W, Sui-Black).

Out of curiosity, do you switch out the Angels for the Simics, or two other cards against Fish? It would seem better to have the four creatures against Extracts, Diabolic Edicts, or any other random stuff that comes your way (the Evacuation that you would Duress and Mana Drain).

For example, I see Diabolic Edict, 1 colorless to Withered Wretch being a problem game 2, given that these two spells resolve. Then there are 4 Duress, possibly more discard, and creatures that can wittle you down while the 6/6 is slowly going to town.

-hq

[dicemanx]

Count how many control cards I play. Count how many CS plays. When I am playing the Oath, they have to have more counters than I do because I win on ties. I usually win.

Powerful card advantage engines are more important than raw disruption counts. Its not how many are in the deck, its how many you can draw in the course of a game. Furthermore, the CotVs look necessary to let you survive against combo, but are a little sketchy after turn 1. If your opponent goes first and plays land, Mox go, what do you do with that CotV in hand? Play it for 0? For 1? Don't play it at all?

Uh, Oath doesn't need to play the long control game. It wins.

I don't believe this for a second. You don't just find and resolve Oaths so easily, and in control match-ups, you might certainly be forced into a protracted battle, which you might very well lose. If this was Oath running Impulse and Mana Leaks, that would be an example of an Oath deck that "wins" in the short game moreconsistently. And again, your disruption card count won't factor in that heavily, especially since you're possibly drawing some dead disruption (CotV) and you might very well be getting outdrawn and outcountered. I'm not saying that you have bad match-ups, but they shouldn't be so ridiculously in your favor as you seem to believe. I dunno - there seems to be a significant disparity between what you can accomplish with the deck in your local neck of the woods, and what people can muster everywhere else. This is why I asked you - what are people doing wrong? How are they misplaying the deck? What are some common mistakes with the deck that prevent people from replicating your results and generating such one sided match-ups? This deck does look simple to play. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, but if there's some big secret to playing it that we're all missing, that's what we would like to discuss.

On a final note, how does Fish adapt to SSS? It is immune to anything targeted, has a huge body with 2 forms of evasion, and even if they can keep Oath from activating, it hardcasts off my 2 main colors. SSS is absolutely the best thing Oath could have hoped for realistically.

Fish can focus on what it does best, and thats attack weak mana bases. In needs to focus on exploiting its strength, including enjoying a much better game 1 compared to games 2 and 3 where it will try to "hold the fort" so to speak. It was Fish that previously gave Oath a hard time because of the creature control cards and the game plan (attack on the mana base and pressuring with fast clocks while using some key disrpution spells/creatures like FoW, Daze, and Meddling Mage). Now that SSS will significantly bolster post SB games, Fish might have no choice but to try and attack the oath itself, either through Meddling mage or Seals of Cleansing. It's a losing battle in the long run since you have creature removal and you'll eventually draw into enough Oaths. The question for them will be whether they can kill you before the eventuality sets in and you win. Perhaps now the match has swung in Oath's favor, but I wouldn't be counting out their resilience just yet.