[play scenario #2] ICBM Oath vs Burning Slaver

[dicemanx]

Here's the scenario presented by Ben Carp:

You're playing Burning Slaver. It's game 1, and you're on the play. Your hand:

Delta
Mox Pearl
Duress
Oath of Druids
Brainstorm
Thirst for Knowledge
Chalice of the Void


How do you play it? There are infinite ways to take this hand, and half of them will lose you the game.

Here's ICBM Oath for reference:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28472.0


This starting hand looks to have 2 separate decisions: CotV for 0 or not (CotV for 1 looks foolish here with two 1cc spells in hand), and whether to play Oath, Duress, or Brainstorm.

First, a comment about this match-up. From my perspective, there are two viable early game plans for Oath in defeating Slaver:

1) Getting Oath out early and stunting the CS player long enough to draw into the Orchard; the Oath has the added bonus of eliminating Welder as an early option, unless the CS player has an overly broken hand and can exploit Welder before you kill them. 

2) Disrupting CS with virtual card advantage cards (CotV for 0, Null Rod), parity cards (Duress, Mana Drain), and resolving your own card advantage drawing (TfK, Ancestral).

This hand allows for both possible plans early.

Plan #2, Delta fetching Underground Sea for Duress is the play that leaps out at first - to maximize the effectiveness of Duress you want to play it before they have a chance to put an Island into play and have Brainstorm up; furthermore, you get a chance to see if CotV for 0 is an optimal play. If it isn't (if they kept a non acceleration hand), you can save the CotV and possibly play it for 1 after Brainstorming next turn and ideally finding another land, unless that land is Orchard and the way is clear to cast the Oath. Still, I would give heavy consideration to just casting CotV for 0 even if they have no Moxes in hand, since that would seriously hinder their mana development and ability to abuse Welder. The danger in this play is that  you can mana stunt yourself in turn - you have 2 mana in play, with 20 mana sources remaining, 5 of which have just been cut off. If you don't top deck a land, or if the Brainstorm misses, it could be a disaster especially if the opponent kept a land heavy draw and can develop. Nevertheless, the benefit should outweigh the costs, because mana explosion is more critical for CS, and they depend on 0cc artifacts to some extent to make their Welder plan or Tinker possible, and Oath can run on very low mana.  Plus, spending a turn next turn for CotV 1 would be a huge gamble - they will get a chance to cast their 1cc spell in response, and then the CotV would have an equal likelihood of cutting off your spells (Duress, Brainstorm, Ancestral - 6 1cc cards left in the deck) as you would theirs; stopping their 1cc Welder can also be accomplished by getting an Oath into play. Of course if you Duress, then next turn you top deck a land, you have TfK up and might want to save the CotV to pitch for card advantage as an option.

The one problem with the Duress play is that might limit you from resolving Oath early. Even if you get a CotV for 0 in play, the situation is nothing more than parity, and if they reach 2 mana and represent Drain, you are no longer in a position of advantage. Then the fortune of the top deck takes over, because you might not get a chance to even resolve that oath in hand any time soon either due to not seeing green in time, or because you're mana limited and will have trouble forcing it past a Drain for example..

The other option is to pursue plan #1 first, and Delta for a Tropical Island for Oath, followed by a blind CotV for 0. This seemingly isn't a bad plan, because it stunts mana development to prevent explosive starts and cuts off any Welder options in case they have Sol Ring or Mana Vault (or an artifact land in some cases), and gives you inevitability once that Oath actually hits the board. Now, you just have to stall them long enough to find Orchard, while they need quite a few turns to develop and start resolving their card advantage cards. Even if they FoW your Oath, you've suceeded in whittling down their hand by 2, and you've possibly stunted their mana development by the back up CotV for 0 (and possibly even more card advantage). You're also in a position to cast your TfK and generate even more card advantage if you top deck a land or Brainstorm into one and reach 3 mana before they get two lands into play. I might even play this option out by playing CotV for 0 first to see how they react, and if no FoW comes, I still have the option of Duress.

So I'm not entirely sure which plan (#1 or #2) I would give weight to. My more controllish nature might cause me to lean much more on the Duress and CotV for 0 plan, since that early Oath could turn out to be a dud early and not being able to cast Duress might be critical. If I have a serious opportunity to establish card advantage and force through that Oath eventually, I'll take that option over gambling on that 1st turn oath winning for me early.


Thoughts?

Let's get some other opinions before Ben or Dan give their take on the situation.

[warble]

Drop the Pearl and Delta, then chalice for 0, then drop the Oath of Druids.  You maximize the opportunity for them to use that counter early, and once you get an oath out you don't have to resolve any more spells...so no drain mana for slaver and no moxen for slaver means you should have enough time to find an orchard and win.  If Oath gets Forced and you have a turn 2 duress it's virtually impossible to see CS keeping up.  Turn 1 Chalice for 1 isn't that brutal against CS, because you don't have counters to fight against tinker your best defence against that is to have chalice for 0.  The only other option I would consider is turn 1 brainstorm mox pearl chalice for 0 followed by turn 2 duress protected Oath.  I can't imagine going duress turn 1 when I have a turn 1 oath...it's better card advantage to have them use their force up early.

[Harlequin]

I think Duress is the best play.  Cutting off the oath (not fetching trop) is only of minor realavence because if its "burning" slaver then they can win via tendrils... so having Oath and no Orchard is not really that powerful. 
Even with the Chalice they could still go Land, repeal, pwned. or even better Force on Chalice, Pwned.  This way you can see what signinfgant bounce spells or tutors (that can get bounce spells) in hand before you deside when to play your chalice. 

Slaver, esp burning slaver does not need to play a creature to win so dropping the oath w/o orchard (when you have other players) is a waste of turn in my oppinion.

[yespuhyren]

Pearl, Chalice@0.  See if they counter the Chalice.  Regardless, play Delta, crack for Tropical Island, and play Oath.  That is, in my opinion, the correct sequence in which to play the hand.  Give them as little information at a time as possible.  This deck runs 2 wastes and 1 Strip mine, and withholding your land until chalice resolves or is countered is always beneficial.  Although there is a very low chance you will have one of the 3 or even an orchard, your opponent is still left guessing.  

[roberts91rom]

Times like these that Bayou would help, .

My suggestion is cut a USea for a Bayou and then crack Delta for Bayou. Cast Duress, pearl and CotV. Then drop oath next turn and win.

Seriously though, drop Pearl, then Chalice@0. If they FoW, thats a hand size of 5, and we assume that they kept at least 2 mana sources, even though 3 should be the norm. Assuming 3 mana sources they have 2 spells left in thier hand. Since they used FoW we assume that BS has some method of either A) Drawing cards or B) Dropping a bomb. With Moxes BS is now in a powerful position. Whether they use FoW or not you fetch a USea and Duress them. Without Moxes and Duress taking their cheapest threat you are now in a very good position to out-control BS. Play the waiting game and the rest of the game is based on how you topdeck, how long you wait for Brainstorm, etc. For example, dropping Brainstorm on turn 2 gives you the chance of still resolving Oath on turn 2. The rest of the game also depends on what you see in the hand of the BS player.

@Warble: Casting Oath turn 1 means you have no black mana source. That means that if they FoW, you need to hit both black mana and a tutor, or one of your 3 remaining oaths. Assume they FoW the Oath and lead off with Volcanic then Welder. GG for you? You can't duress for fear of either dumping a fatty for them, or hitting a useless Mox. I agree with your arguement of Chalice@1, and if you dropped Chalice@1 on the play I would laugh at you as a CS player. Your other option is extremely vague. I will ASSUME that you crack the fetch for a trop when you cast Brainstorm, because you seem so bent on total ASAP oathination. That means in order to drop a protected oath next turn you need a black mana source. If not, then you have just given them 2xTime Walk off the brainstorm. Both your options are very risky and involve a lack of protection in one way or another.

Send me a PM on what is in the hand of the BS player when I cast Duress (Since obviously if you post it publicly it skews the decision of everyone who reads this thread.), and I can say how I would go from there.

[seer]

I think getting your oath forced here is really bad.

You're removing one of your 4 win conditions and you don't really have a way to quickly find another other than a really lucky brainstorm.

I think your best play is:

play Delta -> Underground Sea
play Duress
play Mox Pearl
play Chalice of the Void for 0

next turn:

Cast brainstorm if you don't draw a land and pray you get one



The other play, that might be valid in my opinion, is this:


Play Delta,
Play Pearl,
Play Chalice for 0.


If they force chalice for 0 then you put them on a heavy artifact mana hand. You fetch out Tropical Island and cast Oath.

If they do not force chalice, then you could either go for hte Duress plan or simply say go. I think I would just say go.
Next turn, if you don't draw a land you cast brainstorm and hopefully find one. Then you are setup for a turn3 Duress + Oath.

[AJFirst]

I don't see how the Duress isn't the right call. The deck is a control deck, and being able to Duress away a counter before running the win condition (and in this case, welder nuetering) out there. As stated before, the Duress also lets you see the effectiveness of their Card Advantage engines as well as acceleration (especially the kind that can be cut off if you lay the chalice). A single Duress can really devestate a hand, but in conjunction with a Chalice at 0 it can be pretty savage, and you can make sure it gets through, too. With the Brainstorm+the card you're drawing for turn hopefully you'll find a land (prefferably a fetchland (specifically to find Trop) or an Orchard (to go with your Oath).

Laying out that extra land allows you to play Oath, cast TfK (pitching a now useless artifact), and do other businessy things you draw into, ulitimately putting you far ahead of the game.
-AJ

[yespuhyren]

Times like these that Bayou would help, .

My suggestion is cut a USea for a Bayou and then crack Delta for Bayou. Cast Duress, pearl and CotV. Then drop oath next turn and win.

Yeah, cause even if you did that, you just "win" without any blue mana to use Brainstorm or Thirst to find one of your four Orchards, right?

[Harlequin]

Times like these that Bayou would help, .

My suggestion is cut a USea for a Bayou and then crack Delta for Bayou. Cast Duress, pearl and CotV. Then drop oath next turn and win.

Yeah, cause even if you did that, you just "win" without any blue mana to use Brainstorm or Thirst to find one of your four Orchards, right?

No the tech here is to have your opponent blindly play Welder. 

All jokeing Aside, I think we more or less agree that we cast duress.  What's got in hand??

[Tha Gunslinga]

(CotV for 1 looks foolish here with two 1cc spells in hand)

You've lost already.  Chalice at 1 is almost an auto-win vs Slaver.

[dicemanx]

(CotV for 1 looks foolish here with two 1cc spells in hand)

You've lost already.  Chalice at 1 is almost an auto-win vs Slaver.

So the optimal play is land, fetch, Mox, CotV for 1?

[Tha Gunslinga]

So the optimal play is land, fetch, Mox, CotV for 1?

No.  I wouldn't go for Chalice at 1 with those two 1-costing spells in my hand, but what I'm saying is that Chalice at 1 is so ungodly vs Slaver that you shouldn't write it off as a bad play.  Especially since the stronger their hand is, the worse it is against Chalice at 1.  Chalice cuts off Recall, Brainstorm, and most importantly, Welder and Mox Monkey.  Welder means they can't do diddly except hardcast guys.  Brainstorm means their growth is stunted.  Mox Monkey means they can't wipe out your Chalices/Null Rods.  You also cut them off Chain of Vapor (if they play it, which is unlikely), Duress (again, if they play it), Sol Ring, and Mana Vault.

What I would do is fetch for a Sea and Duress.  You can't take lands or welders, and taking large artifacts or solomoxen is almost always wrong.  You will generally have the following possibilities:

Draw (BS/Thirst)
Control (Drain/FoW)
Broken (Recall/Will/Tinker)

Tinker you grab if they have it.  Will is irrelevant.  Recall you grab.  I wouldn't bother with Drain, because you can probably move fast enough to ignore it.  FoW is another story; grab it so you can punch the turn 2 Oath through.  Grab Drain if there's nothing better, though.  If they have Thirst, leave it unless there's nothing better.  Leave Time Walk alone.  Brainstorm you can leave unless they have nothing else better.  If they have multiple 0-cost artifacts in hand, or if their hand depends on dropping a Mox or Lotus, then play Chalice at 0.  Otherwise write down their hand and pass the turn.  Next turn, assuming you don't draw mana of some sort, Brainstorm (hopefully into mana).  Then drop either Chalice at 1 or Oath, depending on what's in their hand.  If you can cut off multiple spells with Chalice, go for it, and if Chalice is likely to be FoW'd, then go for it.  Otherwise get that Oath onboard so you don't lose.  On the offchance that you Brainstorm into crap and can't play a land, pass the turn and next turn drop the Mox and Chalice at 1, unless you're for sure walking into a Drain into something good.  If you can't scare up a mana or a tutor or something in the next four cards, you're probably fucked.

[edit]: Also, if you play Duress, go, or Duress, Chalice, go, your opponent has no idea what you're playing, though they may guess.  The element of surprise can help significantly.

[edit#2]: This is an extremely difficult scenario for Oath, because you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I think the two best plays are just to either Chalice 0 and drop Oath first turn, then hope for a Brainstorm into a black source, or the Duress into turn 2 Chalice or Oath, but either way it's a giant pain in the ass.

[edit#3]: Bayou would help inthis scenario, but you can't get Drain mana off Bayou, which is why it's not in there.

[dicemanx]

No.  I wouldn't go for Chalice at 1 with those two 1-costing spells in my hand, but what I'm saying is that Chalice at 1 is so ungodly vs Slaver that you shouldn't write it off as a bad play.

What I meant was that CotV 1 immediately was foolish, cutting you off from two spells. I did mention that one consideration was holding on to the CotV to play it for 1 on turn two after Duressing initially. What I'm curious about is this: suppose that you Duress, and see no Moxes in hand to cut off via CotV for 1. Then turn 2, you luck out by Brainstorming into a mana source, so you can possibly play a CotV for 1 (and let's say that their hand had a solitary Brainstorm which the Duress didn't take; and they played a blue land for their turn and passed). Now I'm assuming that if the mana source produces G, then you play the Oath. But if it doesn't (say you draw a Mox), would you play CotV 1 as a pre-empt? You say that CotV for 1 shouldn't be underestimated, but this early in the game it might have an equal chance of screwing either player - you still have 8 1cc spells left, and they have 8-10 (depending on whether they run Vamp or Mana Vault).  Plus, it seems that 3 of those targets, Welder, are already a liability in case Oath does hit, so CotV seems to effectively cut off around the same number of relevant spells on both sides. I'm sure that CotV for 1 can be strong, but you've stated that:

You've lost already.  Chalice at 1 is almost an auto-win vs Slaver.

[Machinus]

My plan is:

Delta -> Sea, Duress
Pearl
Chalice for 0 if it will do anything, otherwise save it so you can play a mox and pitch the chalice to Thirst, or use it as Chalice 1.

[JR]

I would play the delta and crack it for a sea, and duress them. If I see lots of power, I drop pearl, chalice at 0, pass. If I do not, I drop the pearl, hold the chalice and hold the chalice for a chalice for one if it seems relevent or just for TFK fodder. This seems especially good if you take a thirst from slaver with your duress.

JR.

[Harlequin]

Plus, it seems that 3 of those targets, Welder, are already a liability in case Oath does hit, so CotV seems to effectively cut off around the same number of relevant spells on both sides.

I think you underestimate the itellegence level of the Slaver player.  If my opponent casts fetch Sea duress chalice for 0.  Even If I have volcanic, I'm not just going to play a welder before I know whats up.  Thats a huge play error for the exact reason of: If they are playing oath, you are likely screwed.  Its not like I'm going to have any welds anytime soon unless im holding sol ring or vault. 

The only time I would play the Chalice at one is if I saw one Repeal and did not take it, or some combination of TWO Mystical/Vamp/Ancestral/Imperial.  So your right, to the degree of "you might want to Chalice for 1" but I think realistically the 0 play will buy you more time to find an orchard.

[dicemanx]

I think you underestimate the itellegence level of the Slaver player.  If my opponent casts fetch Sea duress chalice for 0.  Even If I have volcanic, I'm not just going to play a welder before I know whats up.

There's miscommunication here. I said that CotV for 1 isn't necessarily cutting off Welder (when making my count of cards stopped by CotV 1), because Welder is already a liability due to Oath. I think we're on the same page here, and I'm not underestimating Welder players.

[warble]

@Warble: Casting Oath turn 1 means you have no black mana source. That means that if they FoW, you need to hit both black mana and a tutor, or one of your 3 remaining oaths. Assume they FoW the Oath and lead off with Volcanic then Welder. GG for you? You can't duress for fear of either dumping a fatty for them, or hitting a useless Mox. I agree with your arguement of Chalice@1, and if you dropped Chalice@1 on the play I would laugh at you as a CS player. Your other option is extremely vague. I will ASSUME that you crack the fetch for a trop when you cast Brainstorm, because you seem so bent on total ASAP oathination. That means in order to drop a protected oath next turn you need a black mana source. If not, then you have just given them 2xTime Walk off the brainstorm. Both your options are very risky and involve a lack of protection in one way or another.

No wei.  Once you hit turn 2 you get brainstorm and a draw for the turn so that is 4 cards, hoping you get a black source when all your lands will give you that.  Or you hit turn 2 after the brainstorm and you have options because you know what you are going to draw.  Best case scenario you've drawn some juice.  If you think just playing a turn 2 thirst for knowledge is bad you're insane.  I guess I just expect after a brainstorm that you do the most intelligent play...instead of always doing what you "planned to" I mean that's the point of brainstorming on turn 1...to give you options on turn 1 and "better" options on turn 2.  I'd still try for oath turn 1 and turn 2 go for the brainstorm into duress if possible, because that gives you the most cards to see and the fastest oath as well as keeping the welder off the table and holding duress for a turn against Burning Slaver, a deck that wins on turn 1 something like 1-2% of the time.  With Flame Vault it was winning faster but that's gone.

[Dnine]

Something else to think about is not only how to win, but how to keep from losing.  One very important key to both options is what you see with the second turn brainstorm.  After turn one either playing duress or oath, you will only get to see 4 cards. One for the draw and 3 off the brainstorm.

Before that turn you will have 52 cards left in your library, 20 are mana sources.  If you played Chal=0 then 5 of those are not playable leaving 15 useful sources.  You have 3 additional brainstorms and one ancestral that will keep you digging.  That's 19 useful cards out of 52 you are hoping to find.  If you went the duress route then you can add Vamp, DT, and 2 duress to that list making 23 useful cards. 

Maybe someone better at stats then me can do a more detailed analysis, but if you fail to see any of these cards after the brainstorm, you are sitting dead for 2 turns.  It seems that the 4 additional outs available from fetching the sea must be accounted for.  Add to this the risk in dropping chal=0 without first knowing if it is necessary makes fetching the sea the best play to not only set you up for the win, but prevent you from auto losing.  While the odds are in your favor to draw one of those cards, there is I bet at least a 10-20% chance of not and that is pretty risky.   

[Mantis]

Mox Pearl, Chalice of the Void set at 0, fetch -> Underground Sea and play Duress. Now, unless they have more than 1+ FoW and 3 blue cards in their hand they can't counter your Oath. On your turn you draw for the turn and go Brainstorm in mainphase and hope you see a green manasource in those 4 cards. I think this is the best play as you minimize the chances of your opponent countering your Oath if you draw a green source. If you don't draw a green source we can assume you at least got something useful out of those 4 cards.

[Smmenen]

I think it depends upon what you percieve as the proper role in the match.

I suspect that hte carp brothers think that control is the proper role for ICBM oath.  Thus, to play the control role, the only viable play is turn one brainstorm (a) to help establish your mana and b) to get rid of the oath and possibly protect the chalice and c) set up turn three thirst which can be played before they get drain mana up) or turn one Duress.

I actually would be inclined to play turn one Brainstorm followed by mox, Chalice. 

I'm almost certain that my play would be turn one Delta find Sea - > Brainstorm.  Then depending on what I see, I'd play Chalice 0.  If I see null rod, I might change my mind.

[AngryPheldagrif]

There are really only two valid play scenarios to work with. I would hesitate to call either one strictly better than the only simply because I would need a read on the CS player before I took either one.

A) Pearl, Chalice for 0, Fetch, Oath. This play is better than you give it credit for, because at worst if they Force it they are losing two cards and you are keeping a hand that likely now has more draw, and can take their Drain or Thirst or whatever they didn't pitch on your next turn, assuming you see any black source in your next 4 cards. Even assuming you hit, say, a basic Island or Tropical, you still are setting up for a Thirst to dig even deeper to find you additional gas and hopefully a useable source.

I would make this play if I read them as a less experienced Slaver player or if they had mulliganed.

B) Fetch for Underground, Duress, Pearl, Chalice for 0 (if they have any Moxen), otherwise hold it and pass. I would also, as a minor disclaimer, probably drop Chalice 0 despite their lacking any Moxen if they have a Welder, since they will likely drop it on their first turn and I can't prevent it with Chalice regardless. This play sets up for Brainstorm into Oath or something else, depending on the mana and business I see in the next 4 cards.

I would make this play against better Slaver players or if I read them for an especially strong hand. The second is perhaps the most important, because leading with Duress means you will almost always resolve Chalice for 0 and that is often the key to shutting off the explosive hands they tend to keep to try to race Oath.

Additional notes:
Bayou is horrible. I would never run it, and those people who want to fetch it are being very shortsighted. You do realize that fetching a Bayou cuts off your ability to draw cards, right? Resolving Duress and Oath may not matter if you have to go topdecking for half a dozen turns looking for mana.

The hand itself is interesting. It appears to be both devastatingly powerful and pitifully weak, looking at it from different perspectives. Should there be an Orchard in your next 4 cards you are almost guaranteed to win, but if you get stuck in a spell clump or hit Moxen after dropping Chalice you may simply just lose. I actually would probably mulligan it on the draw, simply because everything is proactive and getting hit with Land, Mox, Lotus, Thirst, Welder, etc will simply beat you.

I'd actually be interested to see what people think is the ideal play versus Brassman Gifts. The Slaver matchup gives you choices, but weighing them isn't quite as difficult as it may seem since the matchup is quite straightforward for the most part. Gifts offers the same two play scenarios, but also opens up the possibility of Brainstorming on the first turn.

[editted for added responses]:

Mox Pearl, Chalice of the Void set at 0, fetch -> Underground Sea and play Duress.

You always lead with Duress before Chalice. Duress cannot be advantageously countered, and lets you take a look at what they have, opening up the possibility of turn 2 Chalice for 1 which may hurt them significantly more.

I think it depends upon what you percieve as the proper role in the match.

I suspect that hte carp brothers think that control is the proper role for ICBM oath.  Thus, to play the control role, the only viable play is turn one brainstorm (a) to help establish your mana and b) to get rid of the oath and possibly protect the chalice and c) set up turn three thirst which can be played before they get drain mana up) or turn one Duress.

I actually would be inclined to play turn one Brainstorm followed by mox, Chalice. 

I'm almost certain that my play would be turn one Delta find Sea - > Brainstorm.  Then depending on what I see, I'd play Chalice 0.  If I see null rod, I might change my mind.

This is actually an interesting play, because it takes what is in my mind the pure control route. While it may be the ideal control route, generally you want to play the matchup in either pure aggro or moderate aggro control. This hand suggests the second. Unless you find a Force of Will off the Brainstorm or trap an inordinately large number of Moxen off the blind Chalice, you cannot effectively ensure your ability to keep the game under your control. I do, however, see that as the ideal play against Gifts. Still, this is not Gifts, and pure control is not the correct role for this hand.

Assessing roles in Oath matchups is actually very intriguing because the build dicates a shifting role determined largely by opening hand and the first turn or two. Against Slaver you generally want to fall between the aggro and aggro control roles, as that is where you are at your biggest advantage, but can in fact find yourself in the pure control role, as this hand probably would fall with, say, a Null Rod over Chalice and Force over Duress.

[Smmenen]

Whoa, I just thought of an interesting wrinkle to my answer.

If you resolve Chalie 0, then the necessity of playing duress is much less.  So perhaps the right play is to go: Pearl, Chalice - see if that resolves. If it doesn't, then Duress them.  If it does, then Brainstorm.  Obviously, that has negative synergy with Brainstorm if you draw a busted accellerant, but oh well. 

Just a thought.  IF the proper role is control in the slaver match, then I still think one should consider only turn one Brainstorm or turn one duress as the right play.  And duress is less good if Chalice resolved caus it will be just as good, if not better, on turn two. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

Whoa, I just thought of an interesting wrinkle to my answer.

If you resolve Chalie 0, then the necessity of playing duress is much less.  So perhaps the right play is to go: Pearl, Chalice - see if that resolves. If it doesn't, then Duress them.  If it does, then Brainstorm.  Obviously, that has negative synergy with Brainstorm if you draw a busted accellerant, but oh well. 

Just a thought.  IF the proper role is control in the slaver match, then I still think one should consider only turn one Brainstorm or turn one duress as the right play.  And duress is less good if Chalice resolved caus it will be just as good, if not better, on turn two. 

The reason I feel you need to play Duress before Chalice is that resolving Chalice in this matchup is vitally important on the play, since it vitally enhances your ability to play either role. If they Force Chalice and then you Duress them, you may leave them at a disadvantage, but you have nothing to actively prevent them from recovering.

Chalice for 0 on the play against Slaver accomplishes everything you need it to: it severely hampers their ability to quickly Weld, prevents them from putting up first turn Drain mana, allows you to Time Walk them with Strip effects, and prevents them from ramping into their brokenness engine. It buys you the time and space needed to resolve the nails in the coffin, I.E. Null Rod for permanent shutdown, Chalice for 1 for the same thing, and Oath for winning.

[Smmenen]

Here is another thought:

the information you get is probably more valuable than the better control role you set up with turn one Brainstorm.

Slaver has high variance hands that run from utterly busted to very controlish.  There is just no knowing.  Duress tells you exactly what you need to know to best win the game at the cost of not having the perfect control set up for turn two. 

In sum: i'd be inclined to play turn one brainstorm, but I'd probably settle on turn one Duress. 

You'll know whether Chalice 1 or 0 is better.  You'll know whethre to keep or throw back the oath next turn.

[Tin_Mox5831]

My random and uninformed opinion on the matter is that you Brainstorm on Turn one. Then, you have a very good chance of finding another mana source to play both Duress then CotV @ 1 on Turn two. Unless they had Ancestral / Welder on Turn one, you have likely stolen loads of tempo from the Slaver player and the advantage gained will pay dividends all game long. Since ICBM Oath runs Thirsts, I find Brainstorm to be far less crucial than it is in many other builds since TFK+Blessing is a very viable way to ditch any drawn Angels/SSS's.

[Implacable]

It seems like a better play to Duress turn 1 with CotV backup.  Statistically, your chances of drawing into a turn 2 Orchard with your Brainstorm are rather high, and Turn 2 Oath is never bad when backed up by disruption.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The reason you Duress turn 1 is so they can't Brainstorm in response.

[dicemanx]

Just a thought.  IF the proper role is control in the slaver match, then I still think one should consider only turn one Brainstorm or turn one duress as the right play.

I find this a puzzling statement Steve. How is playing the Brainstorm playing the "control deck"? You have control elements in hand already (Duress turn 1, which will drop in strength if saved until turn 2+, along with CotV). I'd figure you'd want to save the Brainstorm until the last possible minute and play it only if you have no other business. There's a big difference between playing BS right away and drawing your next turn's card and then playing BS.

[M.Solymossy]

The correct play depends on so many things.   You can't get yourself caught by their busted acceleration.  At the same time, however, they can play a welder and just race you with their duplicant or mindslaver.   IF you don't play Chalice of the void, you risk that they have a first turn Land+mox+welder, which puts you on two seperate paths.  You want to resolve Oath and win at that point, but you also need to control their TFK's and the one-of gifts.  Furthermore, you chance they do something ridiculous like Tendrils or Mind Twist off a burning wish if they play it, or duress.


if they're at 7 and you're at 7 cards.
You:  Mox, chalice
Them: force of will Removing RandomX.
You: Delta (Sea) Duress
Them: F***

Now they're at 4 cards, and you're at 4 cards.  You have the brainstorm to dig, and you're also playing a deck that can function on 2, maybe 3 mana, while Slaver needs more to really get broken.  Chances are, if they're countering your chalice @ 0, they have a lotus or sapphire, or possibly are missing mana producing lands entirely.  Duress lets you trump them. 

the same way:  if they mulligan, you lead:
You: Mox, Chalice, Delta (sea) duress
this puts them at 5 cards while you have a chalice in play.  If they force, they're left with 3 cards, which puts them in almost autolose.


If they don't mulligan, and don't counter the chalice:
You: Mox, Chalice: Delta (Sea) Brainstorm.
There are MANY cards you can draw at this point to further your path to victory.   You can see one of 4 orchards, one of 3 remaining deltas, the one flooded strand, one of your two tropicals, your 1 remaining underground sea, your strip mine, one of two wastelands if they lead with a non-basic, your Recall, your Vamp, one of 3 remaining brainstorms, or your Crop Rotation

Even drawing a Force of will at this point or Demonic Tutor will set you ahead, considering they will be at severe disadvantage after your duress.  Hell, even drawing another duress could be harmful for them.   

The fact is, your brainstorm will tell you if your gameplan will be a fast one or a slow one.  It's not until that brainstorm that you can classify yourself as the agressor or the controller.