Rochester News

[Chiz]

And no... No Pyrite Spellbomb... The win conditions are Trinkets and Salvagers Beatdown!

Wow! Is that really effective? I guess it must be... Im impressed

I imagine thats secondary, after Opponents Scooping to infinite mana and deck in hand =]

Well... People didn't scoop when I had my Library in my hands. They wanted to see if we play Pyrit Spellbomb. Anyway, you put all your creatures into play, keep a hand of 5-7 counters, show it to them and if they don't scoop, Trinkets and Salvagers will use the attack phase to win you the game. That's pretty effective, nobody plays Pyrit in their Bomberman build since 7-8 months... Pyrit is useless, play the deck and you will see.

[AngryPheldagrif]

That list is all sorts of disturbing deja vu. I have several questions:

1) Why 3 Brainstorms?

2) Why no Emerald?

3) Why limit yourself to UW? Without the black tutors and with minimal card draw, what do you do when you just don't draw and resolve a Salvagers?

4) What is your gameplan against Oath or decks that play heavy lockdown versus Salvagers combo?

5) Why Disenchant over the more versatile and auto-win Cunning Wish?

6) Why Chalice in the board?

7) Why no artifact land for Thirst, Salvagers, and Trinket Mage?

8) (the ego question) Did you ever reference or look at the old Salvagers lists from years past that were put up by myself and Lotushead? The thing that shocked me most about the deck was how similar is was to some of the last lists I made.

[LotusHead]

That list is all sorts of disturbing deja vu. I have several questions:

1) Why 3 Brainstorms?
2) Why no Emerald?
3) Why limit yourself to UW? Without the black tutors and with minimal card draw, what do you do when you just don't draw and resolve a Salvagers?
4) What is your gameplan against Oath or decks that play heavy lockdown versus Salvagers combo?
5) Why Disenchant over the more versatile and auto-win Cunning Wish?
6) Why Chalice in the board?
7) Why no artifact land for Thirst, Salvagers, and Trinket Mage?
8) (the ego question) Did you ever reference or look at the old Salvagers lists from years past that were put up by myself and Lotushead? The thing that shocked me most about the deck was how similar is was to some of the last lists I made.

1) He runs 4 Thirsts, results in a draw engine of 3 BrainStorm, 4 Thirst for Knowldedge, 1 Ancestral Recall, and a couple of Spellbombs.
2) Why should he run it? Basics may be better than Emerald
3) UW is Stable. A resolved Trinket Mage can go the distance with 11 CounterSpells sometimes. (and a few AETher SPellbombs for random Tinker Resolutions.
4) AEther Spellbomb (game 1) and Disenchant are good, I hear, against Oath.  As is winning before they do (via TimeWalk, Draw Deck full of counters, Explosives, AEther Spellbombs, etc
5) Deal with threat now, or deal with it next turn.  That is often the difference,  Disenchanting Null Rod can mean laying 2 fatties on table now (say Trinket Mage, Trinket Mage) which can go distance.
6) Chalice in board is not obvious, belive it or not.  I have always had at least 1 in side (and did well with it every time), but it is counter intuitive to have Chalice for 0-1 in Salvagers Combo. Don't blame guy.  He did top 8 right?
7) I've personally never ran Artifact Lands in Salvagers (not Oath Salvagers...) except ONCE:  In my shitty Psychogenic Probe deck that was Mirroden Block.  But I have no real evidence to back up my decision on it other than Rod/Chalice/Monkey/Island-Fetch is oftenBetter kinda stuff.
8) We both put Salvagers stuff out there.  I took it to tournies. (and yes, converted to Oath Salvagers in due time, but still...)
You "could have" posted some awesome Kobold decklist and not ever won anything with it, but if someone tosses ANY Kobold deck list not matching yours by at least 90%, it's not your list piloted by them.

My Question: To Salvagers guy:
PUT OUT A TOURNEY REPORT, Please?

To Angry Pheldagriff: Much of my responces to the dudes questions were from my own intrests in the Salvagers Archetypes.  The "BomberMan" version from the Canadians (to me, BomberMan is SlapJack2k4 -3 Intuitions/Wishes, +3 Meddling Mages, enough to be worthy of new name, end of story).  This would be a "SlapJack" rip-off (or Meta tweaking) or "BomberMan" rip-off (or metagame tweaking) or even possibly just a home-brewed creation with basic idea of what Salvager+BlackLotus+Trinket Mage can do.

Next Question: To Salvagers guy:
Where did you get idea/build for deck? I never pressed zee Canadians on SlapJack copyright issues because I always felt like Auriok Salvagers=BorkenRetarted good. AngryPheldagriff and I want to know (and possibly those Canadians too.)

PS: AngryP: Please don't take anything I said as flame.  Remember, I DID take your list of Gilded Claw to 5 Top8's out of 10 tournies.  Before last 3 tournies, it was 5 Top 8's out of 7 tournies.

[MoxMonkey]

Anyone know what the Stax list that won Day 2 looked like?  What did he run as a lock set?

[AngryPheldagrif]

1) He runs 4 Thirsts, results in a draw engine of 3 BrainStorm, 4 Thirst for Knowldedge, 1 Ancestral Recall, and a couple of Spellbombs.
2) Why should he run it? Basics may be better than Emerald
3) UW is Stable. A resolved Trinket Mage can go the distance with 11 CounterSpells sometimes. (and a few AETher SPellbombs for random Tinker Resolutions.
4) AEther Spellbomb (game 1) and Disenchant are good, I hear, against Oath.  As is winning before they do (via TimeWalk, Draw Deck full of counters, Explosives, AEther Spellbombs, etc
5) Deal with threat now, or deal with it next turn.  That is often the difference,  Disenchanting Null Rod can mean laying 2 fatties on table now (say Trinket Mage, Trinket Mage) which can go distance.
6) Chalice in board is not obvious, belive it or not.  I have always had at least 1 in side (and did well with it every time), but it is counter intuitive to have Chalice for 0-1 in Salvagers Combo. Don't blame guy.  He did top 8 right?
7) I've personally never ran Artifact Lands in Salvagers (not Oath Salvagers...) except ONCE:  In my shitty Psychogenic Probe deck that was Mirroden Block.  But I have no real evidence to back up my decision on it other than Rod/Chalice/Monkey/Island-Fetch is oftenBetter kinda stuff.
8) We both put Salvagers stuff out there.  I took it to tournies. (and yes, converted to Oath Salvagers in due time, but still...)
You "could have" posted some awesome Kobold decklist and not ever won anything with it, but if someone tosses ANY Kobold deck list not matching yours by at least 90%, it's not your list piloted by them.

My Question: To Salvagers guy:
PUT OUT A TOURNEY REPORT, Please?

To Angry Pheldagriff: Much of my responces to the dudes questions were from my own intrests in the Salvagers Archetypes.  The "BomberMan" version from the Canadians (to me, BomberMan is SlapJack2k4 -3 Intuitions/Wishes, +3 Meddling Mages, enough to be worthy of new name, end of story).  This would be a "SlapJack" rip-off (or Meta tweaking) or "BomberMan" rip-off (or metagame tweaking) or even possibly just a home-brewed creation with basic idea of what Salvager+BlackLotus+Trinket Mage can do.

Next Question: To Salvagers guy:
Where did you get idea/build for deck? I never pressed zee Canadians on SlapJack copyright issues because I always felt like Auriok Salvagers=BorkenRetarted good. AngryPheldagriff and I want to know (and possibly those Canadians too.)

PS: AngryP: Please don't take anything I said as flame.  Remember, I DID take your list of Gilded Claw to 5 Top8's out of 10 tournies.  Before last 3 tournies, it was 5 Top 8's out of 7 tournies.

1 and 2: I'd like an answer from him if it's alright with you. I'm curious as to why he made those rather abnormal choices.

6: Your plan of fetching it was different than actually running full copies, though. Again, like to hear from him.


I have absolutely zero wish to claim the slightest bit of credit for anything about this list or the deck in general. I just would like to fulfill my curiosity since I was absolutely shocked to see how similar the lists were.

[Chiz]

1) Why 3 Brainstorms?

Usually, CotV will be played at 1 against Bomberman. That shut off the combo (Aether Spellbomb), Brainstorm, Needle and Swords. I prefer having 3 Brainstorm and 4 Thirst than 4 Brainstorm and 3 Thirst for that reason.

2) Why no Emerald?

ICBM Oath was present a lot the first day (That's what we found from our matches and what we saw) and that deck played 2 cards we don't like: CotV and Null Rod. We decided to play only 4 Mox and more lands for that reason (1st day I played 5 Mox + Mana Crypt UWb Bomberman).

3) Why limit yourself to UW? Without the black tutors and with minimal card draw, what do you do when you just don't draw and resolve a Salvagers?

I tryed a UWb Bomberman first day, but that didn't work out in that metagame. Storm was too much present (Grim Long) and ICBM Oath too. Demonic and Vampiric are really good, but if you play them, you choose to play a more "comboish" version of Bomberman, which was not good in that environnement. A more "controlish" version with Mana Leak was better in that field. Mana Leak were really good all day!

You have to remember (or know) that Bomberman isn't a combo deck! That's a Control-Aggro deck with a comboish finish. You don't always need Salvagers to win (Trinkets Beatdown wins games!) and you really don't need your Salvagers rappidly in the game. Just play the control game (Counters stuff, draw EoT with Thirts...) and you will find either a "free" 2/2 beastick to cast (Because he will search for Lotus most of the time) or a Salvager. You really don't have to combo early, you have 11 counters and a lot of Drawing.

4) What is your gameplan against Oath or decks that play heavy lockdown versus Salvagers combo?

ICBM oath is hard to deal with, because they play CotV and Null Rod. Add to that the Simic Sky Swallower post-side (That you can't Bounce or Sword) and you have a really bad time (day 1 I played against 4 ICBM Oath in 6 rounds, finishing 3-3).

Our plan against decks that play heavy lockdown versus Salvagers combo it trying to go control-Beatdown mode. Forget about the combo, if you can combo, it's fine, but it isn't escencial as people may think. Beatdown happen more often that people may think and isn't that bad (Salvagers are pretty hard to get rid off the table...). We played somes Disenchant maindeck to get rid of these hate to help the combo (Same is true with E. Explosives who can get rid of CotV and is "Trinketable").

I don't know if you saw it, but we had a lot of cards that are pretty good to deal with Oath. Post-sideboard, we had:
3 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Kamin of Ancient Law
1 E. Explosives
So, your gamplan after side is to disenchant their Oath and back it up with Counter. You don't even care about CotV or Null Rod, you will have enough time to beat him with his Spirit Token / Trinket mage and Salvagers.

5) Why Disenchant over the more versatile and auto-win Cunning Wish?

In the sideboard, we have Disenchant and Swords. Which card you will tutor more often? Disenchant, because you already have Spellbombs to get rid of creatures. So why playing 3 more for it!?

And having Cunning Wish means that you will want to put somes Sideboard slots for instants. I don't want to "loose" even a card slot in my sideboard for a "win-more card" (That's what is Cunning Wish or Pyrite Spellbomb...)

6) Why Chalice in the board?

They are for the combo Matchup.
You can't combo faster than GrimLong. Grimlong was really present day1, so we need something against that
And yes CotV destroy your combo, but who cares!? You just have to take the control-Aggro way and not the combo one. You will be able to slow combo down with CotV and Counters that you will be able to kill them with creatures.

7) Why no artifact land for Thirst, Salvagers, and Trinket Mage?

You already have 13 artifacts, so Thirst isn't a good reason to had a Seat of the Synod. The only time Seat will be good is when you need more mana when a CotV at 0 is on the table... But Seat get hit by Wasteland and Null Rod (Which is played more here than in the USA), so I don't think it's worth it.

8) (the ego question) Did you ever reference or look at the old Salvagers lists from years past that were put up by myself and Lotushead? The thing that shocked me most about the deck was how similar is was to some of the last lists I made.

No, I've never seen them

Lany maked the first Bomberman Build in April or June 2004 and played it for the first time in a tournament in July 2004 (tournament that he actually won!). He called the deck "Bomb Away" at the time, but during the tournament, someone suggest him Bomberman for it, which he liked a lot!! The list we've played this weekend is the results of almost 2 years of testing/ tournaments / tweaking / metagaming. We saw a lot of versions of Bomberman here, from the original list (Which is pretty funny with a lot of sub-optimal cards) to Vial-Bomberman (Aether Vial + Standstill) to the list we played last weekend.


EDIT:

My Question: To Salvagers guy:
PUT OUT A TOURNEY REPORT, Please?

I don't know if I will do one... I didn't take any notes during the tournament

[Gorlo]

Bomberman is a deck that a lot of people don't seem to understand. Yes, its combo is great, but by no way can the combo be pulled off consistently and fast often enough. Looking at the cc of the cards and the amount of tutors makes it pretty evident. The deck is really more controllish than anything else. 8-12 counters, a lot of draw and the Trinket Mage toolbox is stuffed with versatile metagame answers. People can look at it like a Gifts deck with an aggro splash of utility creatures instead of the colossus. There have been A LOT of versions of the deck over the last 2 years. The original with StP, Disenchants and Pyrite bomb, a version with Vial/Standstill and Voidmage Prodigies, a comboish W/U/B version, a version with Dark Confidant, some with/out Thirsts, Meddling Mages, full moxen, etc etc etc. This is for those who don't know the deck, even if Chiz made a very good explanation of the basic principles of Bomberman. I really don't know why people don't talk about it or play it in tournaments more (people should look at Quebec/Ontario tournaments as much as Europe's for deck ideas, even if the metagames are different.)

Oh, and congratulations to everyone who made top 8 at both tournaments! Winning games and power is sure great.

[T00L]

I'm quite interested in seeing this new dragon list that top 8'd

[Chiz]

I'm quite interested in seeing this new dragon list that top 8'd

I played against Peter Day1, so here are the key cards of the deck:

1 Eternal Witness
3-4 Cunning Wish
3-4 Read the Runes
4 Deep Analysis
0 Squee
3-4 Intuition

Mana Base:
Fetch, Dual and basic Lands


Sideboard:
1 FoW
1 Stroke of Genius
Some Sundering Titan
3-4 Swantid Swarm
Null Rod ?? (Not sure...)

That's what I can Remember... Hope that helps a little.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Peter's win was Eternal Witness -> Cunning Wish -> Stroke, which I like a lot.  He also has infinite Recall recursion, of course.  He cut Squee and runs Read the Runes, which is crazy good.  I saw Chalice from the board, as well.

[Dante]

Peter's win was Eternal Witness -> Cunning Wish -> Stroke, which I like a lot.  He also has infinite Recall recursion, of course.  He cut Squee and runs Read the Runes, which is crazy good.  I saw Chalice from the board, as well.

a board of 4 Chalice, 3 Null Rod worked well against fast combo at Gencon 2004.  With workshop decks on the decline in numbers, it opens up slots for them.

[Disburden]

I'm quite interested in seeing this new dragon list that top 8'd

I played against Peter Day1, so here are the key cards of the deck:

1 Eternal Witness
3-4 Cunning Wish
3-4 Read the Runes
4 Deep Analysis
0 Squee
3-4 Intuition

Mana Base:
Fetch, Dual and basic Lands


Sideboard:
1 FoW
1 Stroke of Genius
Some Sundering Titan
3-4 Swantid Swarm
Null Rod ?? (Not sure...)

That's what I can Remember... Hope that helps a little.

I am guessing since there is Swarms in the Sideboard that the maindeck disruption is 3-4 Duress? I'm also curious about the one force of Will in the Side. We all know Force of Will has sucked in Dragon for some time now though. Maybe only one is needed for the deck to get through now? Or are there more main? I like the one creature Win condition into Genius through the board. It really opens up the deck more for extra spell slots.

[Whatever Works]

Anyone know what the Stax list that won Day 2 looked like?  What did he run as a lock set?

Pretty basic 5c stax. Crucible/smokestack/chalice/sphere... he ran welder... and In the Eye of Chaos which was very good.

He sideboarded in juggernauts to my recollection. Nothing groundbreaking, but it was a good metagame choice for sure.

[ErkBek]

I am guessing since there is Swarms in the Sideboard that the maindeck disruption is 3-4 Duress? I'm also curious about the one force of Will in the Side. We all know Force of Will has sucked in Dragon for some time now though. Maybe only one is needed for the deck to get through now? Or are there more main? I like the one creature Win condition into Genius through the board. It really opens up the deck more for extra spell slots.

FoW was probably used as a wish target. I'm guessing he ran 3 FoW's main as well as 3/4 Duress.

[LordHomerCat]

Lets see, he comboed out against me in game 2 (I was Grim), so heres what I saw (even though the list will be up shortly):

He boarded Null Rod's day one, but I think he switched to Chalices day 2 (he had no chalices against me, but i saw him play vs grim Day 2 and he only had chalices).  He had at least one cunning wish main (I only recall seeing one, but they might have been boarded out), multiple Read the Runes, Intuitions, Force of Wills (might have been side, I saw him cast mutliple day 2 against ray robillard), animates (obviously).  He ran only a cunning wish -> stroke of Genius and infinite witness as his win conditions.  No squees, as stated, just lots of Deep Analysis.  He ran deed(s) in the board as well, the deck was UBg with fetches and duals.  Full Power or almost full, including crypt and vault.  I believe i saw duresses against Ray as well.

Truth be told, I only glanced through his deck the game he won looking for what hate he had (null rod), and none of our games lasted more than 2 turns for any player, so I didn't get to see a ton of cards.  Game 1 all he cast was a mox and a land, so I don't know how much of that stuff was side vs. main.

[CrashTest]

I see a few people have posted their own decklists.

    I am waiting to see the CS decklists- does anyone know one from either day 1 or day 2?

[Whatever Works]

I see a few people have posted their own decklists.

    I am waiting to see the CS decklists- does anyone know one from either day 1 or day 2?

ben kowal ran the same list I did down to perhaps 1 card...

Normal CS with addition of 3 nights whispers/memory jar/1 Swamp/1 or 2 repeals... In place of 4th welder/FoF/vamp or mystical/and remaining tech spots that very depending on the build.

[Jank Golem]

About the Bomberman lists, I noticed you choose to run Disenchant over Meddling Mage. Wouldn't Mage be be strong vs. Combo and Oath? Disechant seems like overkill, given you function like a Fish deck and a Combo deck. Meddling Mage also seems to help the fish plan and your alternate win.

[Chiz]

About the Bomberman lists, I noticed you choose to run Disenchant over Meddling Mage. Wouldn't Mage be be strong vs. Combo and Oath? Disechant seems like overkill, given you function like a Fish deck and a Combo deck. Meddling Mage also seems to help the fish plan and your alternate win.

Meddling Mage is good in Bomberman... But not as good as they used to, because we play 4 Thirsts now (What Meddling Mage used to say a lot of times...). I prefer having Kami than Meddling against Oath (Kami is good even after Oath Resolve, not Meddling).
Meddling is good against combo (Naming Tendrils most of the times).

If you take our list and remove 1 Needle and 2 Disenchant, you may add 3 meddlign Mage main and that will make a good deck. Here, combo abnd Oath isn't taht much present, so we dropped meddling some times ago, but they may be good in that metagame.

[Kowal]

I see a few people have posted their own decklists.

    I am waiting to see the CS decklists- does anyone know one from either day 1 or day 2?

This is a list myself and Shay were testing for a little while now, maybe a couple weeks to a month.


4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth

3 Night's Whisper
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Goblin Welder

2 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island


Different sideboards both days.

Tournament was a blast.  I wish I had packed more Old Mans for Tommy's fish-toting ass, but aside from that I'm pleased with the deck and my performance.

[CrashTest]

Ben, how did Night's Whisper workout for you? Did you try Skeletal Scrying at all?

[Kowal]

Scrying was hugely ineffective for what we were going for.  It's all about flow--  we needed something relevant to cast turn one/turn two that would put us ahead of the card advantage curve.  Whisper was exceptional in that regard.

We determined Dark Confidant generally only lives long enough to draw two cards for you.  Night's Whisper draws the same number of cards at the same speed and cost, but with less life loss and no waiting.

[Moxlotus]

I received the decklists today and I'm not sure if he's even on these boards, but...

Steve Conway.  Your Day 1 decklist was 58 cards.  Its title is 5cuba Stax.  There are 0 Uba Masks in there.  Is it safe to say the other 2 cards are Uba Mask?

Day 1 Decklists should be up late Thursday night or sometime on Friday.

[CrashTest]

Moxlotus, very nice - we appreciate the work!

         

[The_spooky_kid]

For anyone who wanted to know, Here was what I piloted on day 2 to victory.  Its not much different from the list I played at Richmond, but i have been having a lot of success with this build.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
3 Sphere Of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 In The Eye of Chaos
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

sb

3 red elemental blast
2 ray of revelation
1 jester's cap
2 tormod's crpyt
1 triskelion
2 rack and ruin
4 juggernaut

[Juggernaut GO]

You won because you maindecked the in the eye of chaos I traded you before the tourney ????? NO WAY !!!!



Hoooooray   for workshops!!!!
juggernauts are so silly in mirror matches, now you have to come to waterbury.

[T00L]

I'll have to agree with Travis that waterbury is indeed where all the cool kids play type 1

[Disburden]

I received the decklists today and I'm not sure if he's even on these boards, but...

Steve Conway.  Your Day 1 decklist was 58 cards.  Its title is 5cuba Stax.  There are 0 Uba Masks in there.  Is it safe to say the other 2 cards are Uba Mask?

Day 1 Decklists should be up late Thursday night or sometime on Friday.

That's pretty fast! Thanks, man.

[The_spooky_kid]

Travis waterbury is looking positive right now for ICBM.  I think i might be making it this time...

[Smmenen]

For anyone who wanted to know, Here was what I piloted on day 2 to victory.  Its not much different from the list I played at Richmond, but i have been having a lot of success with this build.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
3 Sphere Of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 In The Eye of Chaos
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

sb

3 red elemental blast
2 ray of revelation
1 jester's cap
2 tormod's crpyt
1 triskelion
2 rack and ruin
4 juggernaut

That maindeck is straight up cron stax.  It's almost identical to what i got ninth with last may in richmond.