[Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester

[Harlequin]

However, against control, I tended to sb:

- 1 Windfall
- 2 ESG
- 1 Regrowth
- 4 Duress
+ 3 Xantids
+ 1 Hurkyl's
+ 4 FoWs

I found that interesting.  I have always found that sideing against control ends up being rather paradoxical.   Windfall, regrowth, duress I can agree with... but it seems like leaving in the 2 ESGs would help your Xantid consistancy.  At the same time, I think Wheel falls in the boat with Windfall, and its off color for force. 

The card that I can't figgure out if I love or hate to see against Control is LED.  LED is amazing, and it is very often one or more of the proverbial "Many insane plays."  However against control I often find it not worth the risk.  With duress out, LED into the win becomes highly conditional on resolving a Xantid swarm.  Then theres always the option of leaving 2-3 Duresses in... but that leaves you at the doorstep of TPS, and more at the mercy of lady luck when It comes to comboing out.

Is this terrible against control?  If not, please elaborate on some of your choices.
- 1 Windfall
- 0 ESG
- 1 Regrowth
- 4 Duress
- 1 LED
- 1 Wheel of fortune
+ 3 Xantids
+ 1 Hurkyl's
+ 4 FoWs

=====
I have been testing with the deck you t4ed with at rochester and I love Regrowth over Burning wish.  I totally agree on that choice.  Currently I have been tinkering with the idea of -1 Duress (3) for +1 Chain of vapor (2) on the main.  Any comment on that? 

[Spartacus210]

I'm really curious as to the inclusion of Time Walk. The card itself is inherently dissynergistic with the Storm mechanic. Why is it in here? One more turn to set up for a kill? In case of post-board DSC kill, one more turn to swing? A friend of mine has been arguing for cutting Walk. He says it's too situational, and I can kind of see that.

Is it really so broken that it just has to go in? We were also talking about Biurning Wish, so that Walk is still there, you get more "copies" of Tendrils, and can still use Walk.

And I had another question about SB'ing. I know that vs. Shops, ESG's come in from the board, and vs. Control, Swarms and FoW's come in. But what gets dropped? And where does the DSC kill come in?

[rureddy31]

However, against control, I tended to sb:

- 1 Windfall
- 2 ESG
- 1 Regrowth
- 4 Duress
+ 3 Xantids
+ 1 Hurkyl's
+ 4 FoWs

I found that interesting.  I have always found that sideing against control ends up being rather paradoxical.   Windfall, regrowth, duress I can agree with... but it seems like leaving in the 2 ESGs would help your Xantid consistancy.  At the same time, I think Wheel falls in the boat with Windfall, and its off color for force. 

The card that I can't figgure out if I love or hate to see against Control is LED.  LED is amazing, and it is very often one or more of the proverbial "Many insane plays."  However against control I often find it not worth the risk.  With duress out, LED into the win becomes highly conditional on resolving a Xantid swarm.  Then theres always the option of leaving 2-3 Duresses in... but that leaves you at the doorstep of TPS, and more at the mercy of lady luck when It comes to comboing out.

Is this terrible against control?  If not, please elaborate on some of your choices.
- 1 Windfall
- 0 ESG
- 1 Regrowth
- 4 Duress
- 1 LED
- 1 Wheel of fortune
+ 3 Xantids
+ 1 Hurkyl's
+ 4 FoWs

=====
I have been testing with the deck you t4ed with at rochester and I love Regrowth over Burning wish.  I totally agree on that choice.  Currently I have been tinkering with the idea of -1 Duress (3) for +1 Chain of vapor (2) on the main.  Any comment on that? 

If you want a second bounce spell, I think it should be Hurkyl's Recall, not a second chain.

[Gaagooch]

I completely agree with Steve when he says different card choices suit different play styles better.  I have played grim long in three tournaments so far and i absolutely love the deck to death.  I only scrubbed once finishing second once with Steve's Richmond day two list, and i top 8'ed Saturday at the four workshop tourney with a little different list. Differences in bold.

Grim Long

1 Tolarian Academy
4 City Of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Regrowth
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Burning Wish
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:

2 Shattering Spree
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Abeyance
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Balance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre

The original list can be found here for comparison should you want to look at it.  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27822.msg411451#msg411451
(The original list is also supposed to include Tolarian Academy but it was not typed that way.)

First and foremost i realize my maindeck is 61 cards, and i personally play 61 cards but if i was to make it only 60 the first and only card i would consider cutting is the one ESG.  So why cut it instead of running it as another mana source?  Secondly i would like to take a minute to talk about the inclusion of Infernal Tutor.  Now upon first inspection i viewed the card as too situational and not really good in most situations.  But after testing it not only for about three weeks before the event but at the event i have to say i love this card.  Obviously it still has situations where it is more amazing than others so you can always make a case that it is situational.  Think about it this way though, since i added a third Cabal Ritual to the deck i know have one extra ritual, and if Infernal showing cabal rit unless i have threshold i will gain no mana, and lose no mana, but then when i should go to play Yawgmoth's will i will gain more storm, and mana.  If you make a dark ritual chain you only gain two mana, but it will still pump your will up.  I don't even think i have to go through the amount of times its amazing when you have an opening and led in play or just topdeck it late game with nothing in hand, albeit you usually aren't in a late game situation with this deck. 

This deck has only one additional tutor to my previous list because i ran imperial seal in my last list.  I know that a lot of people love this card in combo decks but i personally hate the card, and think it is strictly worse in this deck without the inclusion of Time Walk.  As for me not playing Time Walk, well i hate the concept of walking in combo and i know it is amazing to play Necro->Walk, but again its a personal thing with the non-inclusion of Time Walk. 

I Upped the count of Xantid Swarms main deck by one and downed the Elvish Spirit Guide count by one because i live in the northeast and in my eyes, Xantid Swarm is much better in this meta game.  I keep the remaining ESGs and Swarms sideboard for their certain matchups.  I really like the idea of Force in the sideboard and will probably spend the time until waterbury testing such.  As for the lack of Chain of Vapor in my sideboard, thats my fault i completely forgot about Chain being so good, and thus forgot to run it but it will most def replace rebuild.

As for the rest of my sideboard i really am not personally sold on the inclusion of Shattering Spree, i don't however think i can remove both copies as i cant seem to find something solid enough to replace them.  The card did however seem underwhelming to me all day, perhaps it is because of my metagame, or perhaps I'm not thinking of the best uses for the card.  Either way i will be testing those two slots out before Waterbury. 

I would love to answer any questions about this deck or just even talk about it.  You see i had ankle surgery about a week ago and am forced to stay in my room for pretty much the entire day so I'm just on the computer.  I guess thats it, hope to see you all at Waterbury...

[BreathWeapon]

Shattering Spree is terrible, I can't think of a single instance where I'd prefer it to Hurkyl's Recall, and several instances where it would lose the game instead. It doesn't serve a legitimate function in the deck, because the marginal utility of destroying a permanent and bouncing it is minimal in combo and bounce is blue, uses coloreless as opposed to Red mana and generates additional mana and storm when needed.

@Steve

I understand Chain is good, but I think if you don't include a Hurkyl's you're going to regret not having an answer to Chalice 1. People will play Chalice@1 on the play against Combo if they know you can't answer it and give you your artifiact mana for Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Chain of Vapor, Vampiric/Imperial/Mystical/Crop and anything else I may have missed.

I would cut Time Walk 9/10 for a second bounce spell, in the long run it makes all of your tutors more powerful, gives you an "oops" card vs Stax, a mana accelerant and a storm generator. I think the marginal utility of the card is much higher, because Walk is only good when I have two lands in hand (pausing after a D7 goes against the strategy of the deck and if you've resolved Necro the game should be in the bag).

[Smmenen]

I think that cutting time walk is a tremendous mistake.

It is one of your key "break out of the box" outs.  Last night I was playing a game where I had bargain  but couldn't win unless I time Walked, which I did.  I also played a game where I regrowthed time walk to get an additional draw and another land into play. 

Time Walk out of Draw7, in conjunction with Necro, with X. Swarm or on turn one is all amazing play. 

The fact that it doesn't combo with storm is utterly irrellevant.  I don't even count storm anymore unless I know i'm going to resolve Desire that turn.  It's just not a question.   

[Gaagooch]

@ Steve

Although ive heard other people say the same types of things about time walk it just has never been that good for me.  For some reason it just never works out, and either way to increase the chances of playing a turn 1 swarm i think the deck should go up to at least two, if not three. 

@ BreathWeapon

Shattering Spree is pretty bad, but it is burning wishable artifact removal.  And it replicates, which can help against null rod aggro with their counters, and it can destroy multiple permanents against stax.  Yes i agree bouncing and destroying things against stax are pretty much the same thing, but sometimes you have to use hurklys' as a storm builder, and their may only be one artifact in your way that you really care about.

[MaxxMatt]

I would add another couple of hints about Walk and Storm Based decks.

Time Walk, anytime it is played, anytime it is drawn, put you in the need of optimizing it and the opponent in trouble.

You HAVE to bluff with it, over than powering your broken spells.

An hand with 3 or 4 cards, off a Time Walk, can become deadly.
You would be able to play your bomb, untap and play another one and maybe change your gameplan over the new one drawn.

GL is a deck filled with bombs, such as almost any combo deck.
Time Walk is just cheating the high cc of each one of those spells.

Are you unable to play Necro and Desire in the same turn?
No problem, you can play one, got countered? No problem, I Walk into another turn and the ability of resolving the next one.

It is like forcing the opponent to have 2!! counters into his hand instead of one.
Steve almost covered all the issue about playing it, but, among the questionable choices, I would ask WHY, anyone is talking about Walk.

Talking about not inserting it in almost any deck with blue is utterly a stupid thing.
Think about playing that combo without Walk.

I cannot Necro+Walk
I cannot Swarm+Walk
I cannot Demonic+Walk
I cannot Anything+Walk
I cannot Bluff+Walk --> Win
I cannot land, Walk, land --> Safer from denial
I cannot Walk, Regrowth --> Walk, Y.Will --> Walk, Win.


I usually used it as a bias for opponent's attentions.

Is Walk that need to be countered or what usually precede or follow it?
His cheap cost is KEY for guarantiing his usage and it is for Tempo-Control, what Balance is for Board Control.

Miss his use and you'll miss so many broken moves that it would seem to you not playing the same deck at all.

Maxx

[ErkBek]

Walk sucks in IT, but almost everytime I draw it in GL I really like it. Drawing a walk after a draw 7 is often really good (as weird as that sounds). I also find it nice to play a turn 1 walk off a land and mox to set up a turn 2 draw7.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Also, don't forget that DSC is in your board.   The synergy that the deck has with Time Walk is massive if you examine Grim Long from the proper perspective. Forget that it resets Storm for a second. The decision trees the deck provides change with such regularity that you often follow what appears to be a solid line of play only to find you need more mana or more time. Getting both for 1U seems like a bargain to me. Time Walk is, in essence, a circumvention of several of the game's rules. One land drop per turn? Wrong. One draw step? Sorry. One untap per turn? Nope. 60 card minimum? Not quite. The card has so many subtle advantages to it. These little points combine to make a game-defining card since you gain all the upsides at one time for such a minute investment.

About Stephen's boarding vs. Control:
I agree with dropping ESG despite adding Xantids. The fact of the matter is that Xantid is so good against control that it is worth taking a turn to do nothing but drop Swarm off a rainbow land. Xantid Swarm versus control decks is an exact analog of Goblin Welder versus control. The area where we differ somewhat is that I left Regrowth in with the intent of baiting a bomb then Regrowing it. I won an amazing game versus CS at Rochester with this exact plan.

I fanned open my starting 7 on the play and did my required math, only to find that I was going to be 1 shy on my Storm count no matter what I did. I decided that I'd test the Slaver player by opening with Black Lotus. When he Forced it, I got a fuzzy feeling inside as I proceeded to play Mana Crypt, Land, Regrowth on Lotus, and follow my original game plan except my opponent gave me the last Storm I needed for free. What he did was perfectly right in this scenario, I just had that amazing trump card in Regrowth. If he lets Black Lotus resolve, most Grim Long hands will Duress him off it and go crazy. Regrowth was just so good in that case. He was speechless that I had set him up, and we had a good laugh about it.

[Smmenen]

Also, if you get extracted, you can take infinite turns using Time Walk and ESG beatdown.

Imagine this:

Turn one:
Land, Ritual Necro

You pay 9 life and you see: TIME WALK.

Now you can get another land drop and Walk and Necro for more cards with a super duper solid chance of obliterating your opponent.

Time Walk is one of the most savage cards in magic in the most savage deck in Vintage.

Incidentally, I've done some math:  I notice that I win on turn one in TOURNAMENT magic exactly 33% of my games with Grim Long.  Time Walk helps make turn one wins (I count them as a turn one win). 

[Gaagooch]

Ok with what everyone has said and through more thought i will agree that time walk is nessicary in this deck, but now my real question is what do you feel about infernal tutor in the deck?

[BreathWeapon]

It seems like I'm a lone horse on the subject, so maybe I'll just add it back into the list for an accelerant and play a number of hands with it in my first grip. Regardless, I think Hurkyl's and Chain should be in the MD.

[Smmenen]

Ok with what everyone has said and through more thought i will agree that time walk is nessicary in this deck, but now my real question is what do you feel about infernal tutor in the deck?

It's intriguing, I'll admit that.  But i have no play test experience with it - only theory.
I can imagine how I'd feel if it were in my opening hand.  I can imagine that it would be a good last card to have in hand.  IN a sense, I could see how it could be a good singleton or a double.   But I simply don't know enough to intelligently comment. 

[herbig]

Also, if you get extracted, you can take infinite turns using Time Walk and ESG beatdown.

Thats amazing.  I really wish that would happen to me in a tournament now.

I think Infernal Tutor could be an amazing card, but it really sets you up to lose to a Force or Drain.  On the other hand, dropping it first turn for another Ritual would be pretty good, making it not really dead, and it would be as good as Demonic to top deck.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Infernal Tutor is a tough card to use.  The temptation is so great, since having multiple Demonic Tutors is like having a pocketful of candy and women.  There have been so many times when it ends up being the second to last card in my hand (after some major draw spell or a second land or just something random that I can't play or don't want to) and I just wish it were something else.  I think it's still worth testing, but the only time it's been really good for me is with LED. 

I think Infernal Tutor could be an amazing card, but it really sets you up to lose to a Force or Drain.

Of course, that's probably it's biggest detractor, though your opponent really has to be patient about things.

[Harlequin]

That brings around a question that I asked earlier that no one really answered, and that is:

Does anyone else feel the urge to side out LED against control?  Esp after you've sided out your duresses.

It is such a win/loose card against control, I feel like I should side it out... but at the same time, I don't want to for fear of disrupting my own mana base.  Any comments about Game 2 and 3 against control reguarding LED?

[Gaagooch]

Well i am currently not running sideboard FOW's so i most def do not sideboard out duress and i would never side out Led.  Just sideboard in more Swarm resolve one or make them counter them, duress them, then you have a pretty clear path.

[herbig]

Having four swarms should make it pretty safe.  I think the power of LED outweighs the potential to get wrecked by control.

Gaagooch: What cards do you side in place of Forces.  I find Forces to be great, especially against combo.

[Tin_Mox5831]

LED is absolutely crucial. You have to have 7 mana post-Will (6 if you have seen Demonic Tutor) to pull those early wins on Turns 1 and 2. LED is great in that respect. Floating BBB into a Grim Tutor via either Black Lotus or Lion's Eye Diamond is the trademark play of Grim Long. Xantid Swarm eliminates LED's drawback against control entirely. If you bring in Xantids, you'll be fine. That 3 mana boost is so vital to the deck's early game.

[Purple Hat]

It seems like I'm a lone horse on the subject, so maybe I'll just add it back into the list for an accelerant and play a number of hands with it in my first grip. Regardless, I think Hurkyl's and Chain should be in the MD.

I generally tend to want to replace walk with burning wish actually.  This seems like the natural place to slide in wish to me.  I REALLY hate being kept from playing my draw 7 because I've got tendrils in hand, and this comes up more often than I'd expect.  With tendrils in hand and no wish in deck you can't Crack Jar and Wheel and Windfall become problematic as they make you entirely reliant on Will, and with all the graveyard hate being played main and sided vs will decks right now it seems silly to make yourself auto lose to this strategy when you should be able to just ignore it.

Hale

[Gaagooch]

@ Herbig
I havent actually tested Force of Will in long but when i do figuring out what to sideboard out would be interesting.  It would probably be a better idea to ask Steve M. about what cards he sides out against control for forces since he is the one who has given me the idea.

[BreathWeapon]

It seems like I'm a lone horse on the subject, so maybe I'll just add it back into the list for an accelerant and play a number of hands with it in my first grip. Regardless, I think Hurkyl's and Chain should be in the MD.

I generally tend to want to replace walk with burning wish actually.  This seems like the natural place to slide in wish to me.  I REALLY hate being kept from playing my draw 7 because I've got tendrils in hand, and this comes up more often than I'd expect.  With tendrils in hand and no wish in deck you can't Crack Jar and Wheel and Windfall become problematic as they make you entirely reliant on Will, and with all the graveyard hate being played main and sided vs will decks right now it seems silly to make yourself auto lose to this strategy when you should be able to just ignore it.

Hale

You have a good point, and ammusingly a friend of mine brought it up the other day in our local tournament. He decided to play Death Long instead of Grim Long because he was tired of people using Jester's Cap and Cranial Extraction/Extract on his Tendrils. It may not be as fast as Grim Long, but being able to access your SB and play Demonic Consultation gives it some distinct advantages.

Death Wish doesn't cost you your left nut, either.

[ashiXIII]

It seems like I'm a lone horse on the subject, so maybe I'll just add it back into the list for an accelerant and play a number of hands with it in my first grip. Regardless, I think Hurkyl's and Chain should be in the MD.

I generally tend to want to replace walk with burning wish actually.  This seems like the natural place to slide in wish to me.  I REALLY hate being kept from playing my draw 7 because I've got tendrils in hand, and this comes up more often than I'd expect.  With tendrils in hand and no wish in deck you can't Crack Jar and Wheel and Windfall become problematic as they make you entirely reliant on Will, and with all the graveyard hate being played main and sided vs will decks right now it seems silly to make yourself auto lose to this strategy when you should be able to just ignore it.

Hale

Actually, even with a Burning Wish in your deck, you can't crack Jar. You can't get cards removed from the game face down with Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Golden Wish, or Living Wish. However, you can get one with Death Wish, but it has to be random. So, that doesn't work anyway, unless you meant having B-Wish in your deck to fetch a Tendrils from your 'board.

[B166ER]

You can't get cards removed from the game face down with Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Golden Wish, or Living Wish

Yes you can.  Read the second bullet

First of all, further discussion belongs in the rules forum. Second, you're not correct. Face down cards are not "appropriate" because you cannot look at them to verify their card type, and thus you cannot be sure they are legal targets.
-Jacob

[Purple Hat]

Actually, even with a Burning Wish in your deck, you can't crack Jar. You can't get cards removed from the game face down with Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Golden Wish, or Living Wish. However, you can get one with Death Wish, but it has to be random. So, that doesn't work anyway, unless you meant having B-Wish in your deck to fetch a Tendrils from your 'board.

yeah, that's what I meant, board something like tendrils, some draw spell, balance and whatever I took out of the main for wish.

Hale

[ashiXIII]

yeah, that's what I meant, board something like tendrils, some draw spell, balance and whatever I took out of the main for wish.

Hale

Yeah, you'd probably have a Tendrils in the 'board anyway if you're sporting the B-Wish.

[Smmenen]

Incidentally, is this deck now the hardest to build? 

There were seven players playing it at both Rochester events.  How many of them needed NO proxies?  Maybe 2? 3? 

[nicofromtokyo]

The honest truth is that the only reason to run the mana base I run is Wheel of Fortune.   You can run a three color mana base: UBg off fetchlands and duals.  But I have a hard on for Wheel.  I don't think you get as much stability as some people think with duals since you can't really run basic lands - Island or Swamp woudl be horrible to hang your hat on.  However, you do get the synergies you spoke of.  If you are comfortable with it, go for it.

Regarding the mana base, what about a UBr while cutting the green? I think the Brainstorm+fetch synergy is necessary, thining the deck, shuffling the crap and making the threshold.
ESG x2 => Cabal Ritual & Land
Regrowth => Recoup
Xantid Swarm => Burning Wish / Hurkyll / Rebuild

So you can build a more "TPS style"stable mana base, like:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Undergound Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp + 1 Island / 2 duals (Depends of your meta, mine is full of Wasteland)
1 Tolarian

The biggest lost is Swarm, but you can side-in FoW in the 2nd game. The question here is: what's the case you will face the more: being screwed by a Wasted Mine, City life loss, a Mine used 3 times, or a first hand without the right color at the right moment (only Badland + Ancestral Recall, or only Volcanic + Duress...). I think the fetches give you more advantages than desadvantages compared to the 5 colors Mana base. IS this mana strictly inferior, or nobody just dares to try to use it? (well, never see a list with fetchlands).

[Machinus]

I haven't really heard much from some of the more traditional control players.

What is everyone thinking?  What is the general opinion on this deck, esp. the list i ran at rochester? 

I have a lot of respect for this deck. I played several meandeckers in Richmond piloting Grim Long and I thought the deck was very strong.