[Deck] Presenting the new UBW aggro Control

[Acenought]

You just seem to have all the answers no? Even though I thrashed you with my fish on MWS? I give you some pointers, and you say their not even viable... Please try peoples ideas even if YOU don't think they are viable. As you said you've just got back in to magic, so maybe what plays were so good back in the day aren't so good now. Unless Stasis makes a bold comeback

[Guli]

Dude, please read that post again. What does it add to this topic? Simply nothing. I don't even know who you are. How can i give an answer. If you want to talk about our games why don't you use the private message box.

Why don't you reply on my arguments?

Stilfe/duress (6 cardsslots in the deck) I will most likely draw at least 1 of them 'consistantly'
stormscape apprentice (3 cardsots in the deck, 4 copies would be a lot imo) not likely to be a consistant drop turn 1

Let me give myself an idea. Waterfront bouncer. Another card that i could cast if i draw a mox.

Try to follow my reasoning here it is simple and nothing new:


4 Dark Confidant
3 Waterfront Bouncer

I will most likely draw 1 of them consistantly

4 Duress (i am going to up this to 4 i think)
3 Stilfe

I will most likely draw 1 of them consistantly

Now between these cards the chances are real that i draw 1 of the 5 artifact mana to get that boost on turn 1. The chance i have a mox and/or confi/bouncer are still acceptable.
Overal i would like to either have duress or Stifle in my opening hand or a mox and/or confi/bouncer.

Do i make any sense here? The next thing i was going to try was the bouncer by replacing the ninja. And i just posted my thoughts behind that. If you are making a post or giving my list a hand with ideas please give more insight

[Acenought]

Bouncer suits it much better. Two darkblast and two rushing river seem average to me over chalice, but if you say its always a dead draw, whatever. By the way I was Dreadnought

[Guli]

i am now testing

-2 darkblast
-1 rushing river
-3 ninja

+1 duress
+3 waterfront bouncer
+2 Annul ( just testing it! don't shoot me down i am afraid of chalice@2 )

[without]

Hi. I made a similar deck of UWB Fish...

4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamps
1 Island
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling MAge
4 Drekavac
3 Phyrexian Negator

3 Null Rod
3 Moxen, sapphire, pearl, jet
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Swords to PLowshares
3 Stifle (I love this card)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast

As far as the deck goes, I haven't played it in any tournaments like Sean, but I've played around with it for about a month.  IMO swords are alot better than the funny little gilded drake/waterfront bouncer trick.

The creature Drekavac is amzing from what I tested.  It is VERY consistant on turn two and discarding a card is no problem. He is a 3/3 beater that just makes your opponent's clock faster. 

Also, the deck has a few weaknesses: Chalice @ 1 (OUCH!) pyroclasm hurts Negator and of course, the worst card a fish player wants to see is Balance! Anyways, I was wondering if Negator should be cut for a different creature and how do I deal with chalice @ 1 ?  Another point is that the only counters are Force of Will but I don't see any room for other counterspells.

Oh yeah, the sideboard that I crunched together is:

4 PLanar Void
3 Kami of Ancient Law ( Heavy Oath in my meta)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Energy Flux
2 Arcane Laboratory

The planar voids and arcane labs are auto included, there is no explanation.  The energy flux are a little slow so I'm considering changing those to Annuls or something.  The cabal therapy works great after post sideboard..you have 7 cards in your deck that you can possibly have in your opening hand and destroy your opponent's plans on turn one--> 4 duress, 3 therapy.  fish is a deck that doesn't care about one spell per turn, arcane lab is just simply another peice to slow down combo if they already didn't go off on turn one.

Any suggestions on the deck or sideboard?

[BreathWeapon]

The simple answer to Chalice@1 is to either lower the 1 cc spell count or have MD or SB Seal of Cleansing.

Phyrexian Negator and Drekavac are god awful, Negator is going to be punished with Pyroclasm, Lava Dart and other decks that use the combat phase like Ichorid, Workshop Aggro and Scrub.dec. Drekavic is just bad, losing a cad for a creature that doesn't substantially increase your clock is the worst play ever in fish. A general rule of thumb I use when building U/W/B is that if it doesn't has 2 power and utility ability it doesn't belong in the deck.

If you want more counters, add Voidmage or Erayo.

[Sean Ryan]

I have a problem when people make statements like this

The planar voids and arcane labs are auto included, there is no explanation. 

Fish is a metagame deck.  That means it exists b/c. of a particular metagame that is defined by certain successful strategies, it is defined by how it takes advantage of a this metagame.  Keep this in mind when designing "Fish."  Outside of Recall when playing islands, there are no sacred cows in "Fish."

I put "Fish" in quotes b/c. we are starting to see a a variety of aggro-control metagame decks be successful.  The S.S. most notable among the crowd. 

Anyway, on to something concrete:

@Breatheweapon, be careful with your generalizations.  Negator has served a key role in one of my winning decklists and shouldn't be discredited.  A better critique would be that if you see anything resembling aggro don't play with Negators.  One of the Reasons Negator is good is b/c. number one he's a clock, but number 2,  he survives Pyroclasm not the other way around.  That being said, I'm no longer playing Negator at this time, but that could change. 

The point is be carefull about knee jerk reactions.  Perhaps more importantly, do not become attached to particular cards or strategies  b/c. you like them or b/c. they have  worked in the past, rather test out different ideas to see how they perform against a testing gauntlet. 

Who would have thought a "Fishy" deck could win Rochester without even using Chalice or Null Rod.

Check out the T8 from Game Universe, the winning list is u/b/w Wizard Fish, maybe we can actually drop the word Fish and just call it wizards Voidmage fits nicely here and with access to white, it's Workshop and Oath match up might be better than S.S.

One of the features both the Wizard list and S.S. had in common was maindeck Darkblast & Rushing River along with at least 2 tutors to find them.  I think this approach is much better than running multiple Swords that are often less than ideal in many matchups.

Fishy aggro-control has a definite opportunity in this metagame and I know of at least 3 different builds (SS,u/b/wizards,neo EBA) that have won power recently.  There were even some unoptimized aggro-control builds to make T16 at Rochester. 

One thing to keep in mind is that aggro-control is on the rise and that means more mirror matches and more Workshops to come, so plan accordingly.

Thanks
Sean

___________________________
Free your mind

   

[BreathWeapon]

You have a good point, Negator does have a place in the deck if its sole purpose is to give fish a clock. That said, I don't feel the need for a dedicated clock in fish, because I think it's smarter to have Voidmage or Erayo take control of the board and then send in a swarm for the win (or possibly play a Cutpurse and trust that the card advantage he generates is enough to maintian your position, still testing this). In truth, I'd rather use Tinker/Colossus instead of Negator, no one would see that comming.

I haven't passed final judgement on SS, that said I'm not going to give the deck credence until it manages to repeat a T8, people play Shops and Oaths around here.

I'm not certain I like bounce in fish, because fish isn't a deck that can just win on the next turn. Bounce answers Colossus and Dragon, but so does Swords and it also has the advantage of removing other troublesome creatures. I could see an argument for MDing a single Darkblast, as I'm certain seeing it game one is the difference between winning and losing the mirror match.

Edit: Wow that T8 deck at Games Universe looks familiar, he just removed the Kataki's for tutors and a tool box and made some changes to the manabase.  I don't think I agree with cutting Kataki for the tutor/tool box, and Energy Flux is just better in the SB.

[Guli]

@without

there are better creature for 2cc out there than Drekavac.

4 mages and 4 confidants are good. The more you play with them the stronger  they become cause you know more and more what to say with mage and when to play the confi. If you want a clock use Negators. Don't be that scared with the bad part of the card. Usually it really isn't that bad. Don't forget that you can use stifle on the negator and you only have to stifle 1 time to protect yourself cause damage is done all at once so the effect of saccing things in 1 time even if he gets blocked by 2 creatures. And if you really want to improve the negators effect on the table. Use Blue elemental Blast to protect him and yourself against direct damage. Occasionally you can use the BeB to stop recoup/Burning wish/Welder/ReB/

[without]

I've played around with fish. I don't understand how people just run 4 bob, 4 mage, and 4 voidmage and expect to win with 12 guys.  Oath will laugh @ u, Tendrils will storm you turn 2 cause your only out is stifle, and even stax would crumple u with Crucible/strip and smokestack.  Fish is a deck with tons of hate, few creatures, slow clock and fragile manabase.  You need some kind of BIG creature like Negator or Psychatog or the Nantuko guy (need black mana).
IMO fish needs to start maindecking inferor cards like B2B, Arcane lab, etc. It just loses favor of even winning Game 1 without (<---LOL) having a fast win or those lock components. 

[BreathWeapon]

What?

I haven't lost a match to Long since I built that deck, Duress, Mage, Chalice and Wasteland are all devestating cards against Grim Long, and Force of Will prevents turn one wins and Apprentice locks them out of the game. SB you remove Kataki for Leyline and Long is SOL. TPS and IT are a different matter, because they can SB Massacre.

I don't use 12 men, I use 16. Kataki is your entire game plan against Stax.

Oath Game 1 isn't a lost match up, and the clock you set on Oath is irrelevant because the Angels will out race you. I faill to see how Negator or god forbid Drekavac are going to solve this problem, the entire match up revolves around either resolving Meddling Mage or Sword to Plowshares. After that, you bring in 8 cards that hate Oath between Seal, Annul and Kami.

Go play Suicide.

[Acenought]

I've played around with fish. I don't understand how people just run 4 bob, 4 mage, and 4 voidmage and expect to win with 12 guys.  Oath will laugh @ u, Tendrils will storm you turn 2 cause your only out is stifle, and even stax would crumple u with Crucible/strip and smokestack.  Fish is a deck with tons of hate, few creatures, slow clock and fragile manabase.  You need some kind of BIG creature like Negator or Psychatog or the Nantuko guy (need black mana).
IMO fish needs to start maindecking inferor cards like B2B, Arcane lab, etc. It just loses favor of even winning Game 1 without (<---LOL) having a fast win or those lock components. 

Are you serious? Have you played fish before? How is Drekavac a good option to race your opponent??? Even Wretched Anurid is better than the creatures you choose, and he is almost totally unplayable. Breath Weapon's creatures do stuff to your opponent(Meddling Mage, Voidmage) and his spells are efficient at disrupting the opponent(Duress, Force). Drekavac and friends give you loss of card advantage, losing you threats. Try not to bag other peoples decks when they are clearly superior to yours.

[without]

You know is only mentioned Drekavac once and now you guys are going to use that as an excuse everytiem, i agree drekavac is bad so quit fucking saying that GOT IT!

[BreathWeapon]

You know is only mentioned Drekavac once and now you guys are going to use that as an excuse everytiem, i agree drekavac is bad so quit fucking saying that GOT IT!

After even seeing Drekavac suggested, I'm not inclined to take anything you say seriously; tho' suggesting Back to Basics and Arcane Lab to be included MD is an equally dubious suggestion. And clearly your entire take on the "clock" issue is wrong, considering SS managed to take first with a grand total of 8 two power creatures and the odd Erayo.

[Acenought]

Up your blue card count for force of will. 14 is clearly too little in my opinion when two of them are acall and walk, and four others your threats. Add the new jotun grunt for drekevak(3 grunts) and 4 brainstorm by dropping a drek and 3 other cards. Brainstorm is amazig in fish and rounds your curve.

[Guli]

This is my final list  (well maybe not final but its pretty complete)
CBF ²⁰⁰⁶ (Control & a bit Fish)

Disruption and removal

4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle
3 Duress

Draw and Search

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confidant

New tech

3 Jötun Grunt (Coldsnap)

Cute

1 Time Walk
1 Demonic

Teh Mana base

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SIDEBOARD

Feel free to adjust the SideBoard according to your metagame.

3 Sacred Ground (Stax)
3 Orim's Chant (Combo,Will)
2 Diabolic Edict (Oath,Aggro)
3 Seal of Cleansing (Oath,Stax)
4 Leyline of the Void (fast grave hate, replaces grunt against combo for example)

[BreathWeapon]

Something bothers me,

You included Leyline of the Void in the SB, because you recognize his upkeep is insufficient speed to affect the game state. Thus, wouldn't it preclude that Grunt is simply a bad hate card on a 4/4 body? His ability isn't sufficient enough to prevent anything from happening, Dragon uses Animate or Necromancy in response, Gifts casts Gifts at the end of your turn, Slaver uses a Welder in response, Stax uses his Crucible and utility land after his upkeep, Combo wins leaving Ichorid as the only deck the Jotun Grunt manages to really do his job against as a Crypt on Steroids.

Jotun Grunt is awesome in Legacy B/W (Fish's distant cousin) because of Threshold. Jotun Grunt is horrible in Vintage because the card has no clear objective other than being an anti-Ichorid board card or 8-12 points of damange depending on the game state to the 4-6 of another creature that is going to have a powerful affect on the board.

[Guli]

The fact that it botheres you has no value as an argument.

Are you speaking in theory OR did you playtest it and come to the conclusion that it is a bad hate card?

Do not twist my words to create your own statements please. Against combo i don't have that much time. Every card i play must be a good disruption. Grunt is still good but combo is too fast i need fast and cheap answers like Stifle/Orim/Leyline/Force.

Against combo it is a little bit too slow i agree but on the other hand it is a bomb against ichorid. And it is GOOD against a deck that is trying to set up Will while creating card advantage.

You are using specific game situations as an example to what end? I can create answers to counter your way of argumenting. I stilfe a welder activation as a response or the welder gets forced or plowed. Or wait i had my bouncer up and running so the welder is bounced back. Or i simply blow up en Engeneered Explosive for 1...
Gifts has a hard time keeping control against this deck. I got answers against the tinker/dcs and if they go combo style they need to set it up. Grunt will be a deadly card, preventing a lethal Will. Stifle is luring around the corner to catch a fetch of guard. Mage has to be bounced. EE is not pleasant for the acceleration they build up. I like that matchup a lot. Especially if i can get a confidant on the board. Duress takes out those drains or forces.

I have been playing around with this deck for months now and i will play this version for a long time before i make a change. Unless someone has a suggestion that really looks promising.

[Guli]

I would like to direct your attention to the Engeneered Explosives that i added. They give me an answer to chalice. They do not affect any of my permanents (only 3 moxes no problem...)
This makes EE VERY powerfull in this deck.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree, whether or not the card "bothers me" isn't an argument, which is why it's seperated from the rhetoric. I'm not twisting your words, I didn't even quote you. The point of citing particular play scenarios is to prove that the card is sub par, and any particular instances you site are going to be win more (I believe). I've put the time into the card, it didn't perform.

You can play whatever you like tho', your metagame is your metagame.

[Pave]

I would personally prefer 3 Azorious Guildmage to 3 Waterfront Bouncer.  He performs the same task in tapping down an enemy creature (or two) at no card disadvantage and beats for double while still being pitchable to Force and also offering further stifle effects on fetchlands in particular (though without Aether Vial I suspect you'll generally not have the mana for this in the early game).  I may even prefer Guildmage to Swords because he beats, but I play a very aggressive and less controlish build (close to Rian Litchard's UW).  With EE to kill little guys, like Welder, and Guildmage to tap bigger guys down, you may not need Swords.  Perhaps Guildmage overly stresses your manabase - he might be worth a try though.

I trust EE does serve a valuable role in your deck as you have no other means of cutting your opponent off from their moxen (Chalice or Null Rod).

I would also prefer Demonic Consultation to Tutor in such a deck.

I tend to think Jogun Grunt is excellent because he is a such a huge beater and I want to kill my opponent as quickly as possible in the time my mana disruption buys.  The only control elements I really care for are those that stop my opponent from wriggling out from under my mana disruption (Tinker and Will, centrally).  Grunt hurts Will and beats hard.  Big problems for Fish have been Ichorid, which he answers perfectly, Sky Swallower, which he helps to race, and Massacre, which he survives. Perfect.

I'd be scared facing down Stax with your deck, Guli - I'd really miss Kataki, Fish's best (if not only) plan.

[Guli]

When stax can get a trini in play relatively early it is extremely hard to fight. However while it seems extremely hard i manage to put down a lot of permanents down and doing just enough pressure to prevent being outlocked for the rest of the game. But i have more chance to draw a force than they drawing a turn 1 control/aggro killer. I think you understand why i packed Sacred Ground in sideboard. And Seals.

Stifle can be nasty aganst stax.
EE is a permanent that can destoy chalices/moxes/welders
Force is my friend
Jötun Grunt against bazar/stax versions ... HeHeHe ...
Turn 1 Confi is usually great against stax.

I would side side out bouncer and duress against stax and bring in the hate.

The last week i havent got the time to play much but i did face decks that run Azorious. I liked it a lot. But the bouncer is really not to be underestimated. He is very powerfull against a lot decks... Oath game 1, when facing gifts you make sure they don't go combo/broken mode and the bouncer helps against their Tinker plan. It becomes a problem that they HAVE to bounce or Fire/Ice. Remember you can bounce back your Grunt aswell.

[Pave]

Fair enough.  Sacred Ground is just as good as Kataki - I just prefer the latter as it beats.  (And I like to have a lot of dudes in the fish mirror.)

Guildmage does everything you mention of Bouncer except return Grunt to your hand.  I wouldn't want to be doing this too often though.  I'd concede Bouncer is handy in the mirror, too, since you can bounce your own dudes after damage, but that is ultimately a 1 for 1 trade anyway.  I like Azorious over Swords partly because you can name Swords in the mirror.  Just some thoughts.

[LordHomerCat]

Is bouncer better than Stormscape Apprentice?  Bouncer costs 1 more and makes you discard cards, for the same basic effect (stopping a DSC or Akroma or something).  Apprentice is very solid in Rian's builds, have you tried this guy over bouncer?

[Smmenen]

What?

I haven't lost a match to Long since I built that deck, Duress, Mage, Chalice and Wasteland are all devestating cards against Grim Long, and Force of Will prevents turn one wins and Apprentice locks them out of the game. SB you remove Kataki for Leyline and Long is SOL. TPS and IT are a different matter, because they can SB Massacre.

I don't use 12 men, I use 16. Kataki is your entire game plan against Stax.

Oath Game 1 isn't a lost match up, and the clock you set on Oath is irrelevant because the Angels will out race you. I faill to see how Negator or god forbid Drekavac are going to solve this problem, the entire match up revolves around either resolving Meddling Mage or Sword to Plowshares. After that, you bring in 8 cards that hate Oath between Seal, Annul and Kami.

Go play Suicide.

Do you know how many times I've heard that and from how many sources?  People ALWAYS tell me they DESTROY Grim Long with such and such a deck and with such and such hate cards.  Yet, in actual tournanent, when i play against these cards, I win. 

[Guli]

Fair enough.  Sacred Ground is just as good as Kataki - I just prefer the latter as it beats.  (And I like to have a lot of dudes in the fish mirror.)

Guildmage does everything you mention of Bouncer except return Grunt to your hand.  I wouldn't want to be doing this too often though.  I'd concede Bouncer is handy in the mirror, too, since you can bounce your own dudes after damage, but that is ultimately a 1 for 1 trade anyway.  I like Azorious over Swords partly because you can name Swords in the mirror.  Just some thoughts.

Very valid point.
But you will be removing a 1 cc spell with another 2 cc spell. But like plow does it is an answer to DSC and Welder aswell. Plow is faster and can be a tempo gain. I will look into it by replacing the bouncer with guildmage.

[BreathWeapon]

What?

I haven't lost a match to Long since I built that deck, Duress, Mage, Chalice and Wasteland are all devestating cards against Grim Long, and Force of Will prevents turn one wins and Apprentice locks them out of the game. SB you remove Kataki for Leyline and Long is SOL. TPS and IT are a different matter, because they can SB Massacre.

I don't use 12 men, I use 16. Kataki is your entire game plan against Stax.

Oath Game 1 isn't a lost match up, and the clock you set on Oath is irrelevant because the Angels will out race you. I faill to see how Negator or god forbid Drekavac are going to solve this problem, the entire match up revolves around either resolving Meddling Mage or Sword to Plowshares. After that, you bring in 8 cards that hate Oath between Seal, Annul and Kami.

Go play Suicide.

Do you know how many times I've heard that and from how many sources?  People ALWAYS tell me they DESTROY Grim Long with such and such a deck and with such and such hate cards.  Yet, in actual tournanent, when i play against these cards, I win. 

That's because your Steven FUCKING Menendian, which immediately sends lesser mortals into their scoop phase

I have lost match ups to Grim Long, Force/Misdirection Long (whatever the hell they are calling it) and IT, people figured out how good Tutor->Necropotence is and sent me back to the drawing board on that one, but I still have a good match up against that deck with Fish. Combo is pretty much THE reason to play Aggro-Control in this format, Gifts and Slaver are just a bonus

[Pave]

Fair enough. Sacred Ground is just as good as Kataki - I just prefer the latter as it beats. (And I like to have a lot of dudes in the fish mirror.)

Guildmage does everything you mention of Bouncer except return Grunt to your hand. I wouldn't want to be doing this too often though. I'd concede Bouncer is handy in the mirror, too, since you can bounce your own dudes after damage, but that is ultimately a 1 for 1 trade anyway. I like Azorious over Swords partly because you can name Swords in the mirror. Just some thoughts.

Very valid point.
But you will be removing a 1 cc spell with another 2 cc spell. But like plow does it is an answer to DSC and Welder aswell. Plow is faster and can be a tempo gain. I will look into it by replacing the bouncer with guildmage.

Swords is good against Welder.  I suppose I lean on Pithing Needle post-board for that.  Swords is also good against Confidant.  But you can race or drop your own Confidant in that case.  A good curve ensures that Fish can drop a steady stream of threats.  Its answers (Swords or Guildmage, in this case) aren't so crucial in this respect, I suspect (provided they are still cheap).  Swords can be a tempo gain but it can also be a tempo loss when you give your opponent life - it takes time to chip that stuff away again.  Each card has its advantages.  If Fish can beat, though, it probably should - that is my suspicion; better that than hording answers.

[Guli]

Fair enough. Sacred Ground is just as good as Kataki - I just prefer the latter as it beats. (And I like to have a lot of dudes in the fish mirror.)

Guildmage does everything you mention of Bouncer except return Grunt to your hand. I wouldn't want to be doing this too often though. I'd concede Bouncer is handy in the mirror, too, since you can bounce your own dudes after damage, but that is ultimately a 1 for 1 trade anyway. I like Azorious over Swords partly because you can name Swords in the mirror. Just some thoughts.

Very valid point.
But you will be removing a 1 cc spell with another 2 cc spell. But like plow does it is an answer to DSC and Welder aswell. Plow is faster and can be a tempo gain. I will look into it by replacing the bouncer with guildmage.

Swords is good against Welder.  I suppose I lean on Pithing Needle post-board for that.  Swords is also good against Confidant.  But you can race or drop your own Confidant in that case.  A good curve ensures that Fish can drop a steady stream of threats.  Its answers (Swords or Guildmage, in this case) aren't so crucial in this respect, I suspect (provided they are still cheap).  Swords can be a tempo gain but it can also be a tempo loss when you give your opponent life - it takes time to chip that stuff away again.  Each card has its advantages.  If Fish can beat, though, it probably should - that is my suspicion; better that than hording answers.

And now you are enforcing my idea even more, i explained earlier that i am playing more CONTROL aggro than AGGRO control, My creatures are beaters sure but that is seccondary in my way of thinking. Confi draws card, Mage is preventive,grunt is grave hate, bouncer/guildmage is creature control...

Needle would be a bad pick because of E explosives