Grim Long - Play Situations

[rureddy31]

Menendian asked for play situations with Grim Long, and I have decided to conorm. I have been fooling around with the deck A LOT!!! Every once in a while, I come up with hands where the play isn't very clear. Much like this one. You're on the play, not knowing you're opponent or his deck. Here's the hand:

Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Duress
Brainstorm
City of Brass
Grim Tutor
Elvish Spirit Guide

You're presented with a couple of first turn options. You could:
A) Duress, and then pretty much pass the turn
B) Play the Brainstorm, and then depending on what you draw, either pass or get lucky
C) This is the play I saw, though I am not sure if it is right. Play the petal, the diamond, and city. Tap the city, sac the petal, and remove ESG to play Grim Tutor, in response pop the Diamond for blue. Get Timetwister. Draw 7. Any other options I may be missing?

Also, please feel free to post your own play situations...

[rureddy31]

I ended up doing the twister play, drew windfall and mana off the twister, and then time walk off the windfall.

[Implacable]

Go with Brainstorm first, then see what's going on with that hand.  If you can go off, do it.  If you can't, play Petal and pop it for Duress.

[Smmenen]

If you are going to go for the tutor play on turn one, you'd rather just get Necro.  Who cares that you are only a 16 life.  -9 life, + 9 cards in hand and you win next turn with 7 life - 1 for city, 3 for your next grim tutor, and a little cushion in case.

Note: I think abstract Grim Long scenarios are dangerous.  Give us a FULL game state - including opponents board. 

[Imsomniac101]

Depending on what you're opponent is playing. I think a lot depends on whether your opponent is playing with Wasteland or not. If you're opponent isn't playing with Wastes; then I'd lead with Duress, wait for a turn, then go tutor-> broken crap-> win. If he is playing wasteland, then I'd lead with Brainstorm. If you don't know what you're playing agaisnt, I think JD's play seems pretty sound, might come up a mana short depending on what you see off brainstorm.

[klu]

I would personnaly play, turn 1 duress and say next.
I don't see any reason to play brainstorm from the lotus petal on the first turn. That play could be done the turn after without any loss of tempo and it digs a card further.
going to necro turn one could be pretty good, but facing a fow means you loose the game.

[Machinus]

Why wouldn't you do this?

Turn 1: City of Brass, Duress, go
Turn 2: Brainstorm, mana, tutor for will

That hand looks to me like a turn 2 win at the earliest. So if you play it like this, you would draw an extra card before you brainstorm, and hopefully find 1-2 additional sources of mana before you tutor up will and cast it. Using your lotus petal on turn 2 instead of turn 1 seems like it makes a big difference.

Steve or JD, is this good reasoning or not? Why?
Is it worth the risk to necro turn 1 (you will have 1 land and 0 cards if they fow)?

[MaxxMatt]

You could not have the land in play during turn 2.
You should use Petal for Brainstorm consuming another resource, ESG and LED are one shot too.

That hand is risky, depending on the opponent that you are going to face or really good too.

Which opponent were you facing?

[rureddy31]

Just assume its round of SCG Rochester, and you don't know who your opponent is, or what he's planning.

I totally forgot about Necro. So is that the play? Turn 1 Necro? I think it is...

[Darkenslight]

I'd likely go with:

T1: Brass, Duress, Petal, go.

This way, you have one mana extra on the table, and you can dig EoT to set up potential silliness next turn.  I think the main plan is Duress 1st turn.  This is, in some respects, the Ideal play, because it reduces the level of interactivity that your opponent can play with.

[Purple Hat]

Just assume its round of SCG Rochester, and you don't know who your opponent is, or what he's planning.

I totally forgot about Necro. So is that the play? Turn 1 Necro? I think it is...

I think it's only the play if you want to tutor on turn 1, if you want to tutor on turn 2 after leading with duress I'm tempted to go:

t1: land, duress
t2: petal, LED, pitch esg, tutor breaking diamond for red, get wheel, wheel.  Necro is the other option here, I think those are the only two though.  Twister is clearly wrong and windfall is less cards, you can't go will-->tendrils because you're short on mana post will.

Turn 1 necro seems to be a bad play because it leaves you naked if it gets countered, no cards in hand, COB in play.  If you go for wheel on turn 2 you still have your land drop, you've hopefully cleared their hand with the duress and you have all your perminant artifact mana, academy, lotus and all your rituals still in your deck.  Necro turn 2 is clearly the SAFE play, if they don't have a scary hand and I know I'll still be in the game on turn 3 I go for Necro, draw 8 or 9 cards and go off from there.  with wheel I've given them a new hand that I now have to clear again.

EDIT: if you go turn 2 necro you're virtually guarenteed to miss your turn 2 land drop if you're playing stax which is also a consideration.

[Implacable]

I'd likely go with:

T1: Brass, Duress, Petal, go.

This way, you have one mana extra on the table, and you can dig EoT to set up potential silliness next turn.  I think the main plan is Duress 1st turn.  This is, in some respects, the Ideal play, because it reduces the level of interactivity that your opponent can play with.

I disagree with you.  In this hand, it is imperative to obtain more brokenness than you have.  Furthermore, in every game that you play, you must disrupt your opponent at least somewhat before attempting to go off.  The only way to accomplish both of these goals in a turn is to Brainstorm (as sort of a quasi-'bait', in order to try and read them for Forces), and then follow it up with a Duress.

[Smmenen]

Here is the thing, I can't even tell you what the corret play is

It depends on the round too.

If this was round one, and I sit down accross from a child, I would not hesitate to go for the necro play - esp. if they mulliganed.

But if i sit down accross from name player or a well dressed adult who handles and shuffles their deck like they know what they are doing, I'd look for other options.

When playing Grim Long, I read body cues ALOT.  It's really important to be able to read your opponent. 

Did they muligan?  Are they tired?  What round is this?  What's your record?  All of these questions are extremely important.

[rureddy31]

You're playing against me I am calm, and talking a little trash, because you're arrogant (Ref. to another thread, i hope menendian gets this:P). I didn't mulligan, you're on the play. How do you play this hand now?

[g0tenks00]

@ steve: is there currently, or are you planning on, writing a primer for grim long? I monkeyed around with death long last year, and i'm tempted to just think of optimal plays when goldfishing grim long, but I'm also worried about - like you mentioned - abstracting too much and getting locked into an "optimal play" mindset without considering game state. if you could point me to somewhere to better understand its nuances, that'd be great

[b-tings]

With no shuffle effect, if you don't topdeck a land or draw one off the Brainstorm (remember there's only 10 left in the deck at this point, so it's decently likely you won't draw another one), then you should just pack up the cards--it's over.  In order to guarantee having manas next turn, you need to Brainstorm to look for that second land.

I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post, since I don't know how to play magic, but this bit seems counterintuitive. How does brainstorming now guarantee your mana for next turn? Your odds of drawing a land are worse if you brainstorm now than if you brainstorm after seeing an additional card. The only card that I could see being more relevant if you resolve brainstorm now rather than later is Vampiric Tutor, which could put Lotus on top if you're fearless, or some other source if you smell FoW.

[Harlequin]

2) Duress on the first turn is only good when your hand is bombtastic.  With a Duress/pass first turn, you really don't want to be forced to take countermagic. 

That is a very solid arguement.  If you duress turn 1, draw a non-mana and cast brainstorm... you may end up needing to wait a turn to win.  Then they will have had 2 draws since you saw the hand. 

If you lead with BS then you #1 have the potential to hit the required "crazy mana" to win this turn, or #2) Play a land on turn 2 and win more comforatably (with duress on the turn you go off) -- which is far more likely.

[TimeWizzle]

I think the decision to turn one duress also largely depends on what the metagame is.  If you are somewhere with a ton of Stax (Chicago, we are looking at you) you may need to duress first turn just to eliminate the chance of getting Chalice/sphered out before you can get anything going, especially with a one-land hand. 
However, if you are playing in the NE and every match is gifts or slaver, you want to save the duress to clear the way for going off.
Also, like Steve said, knowing your opponent and reading your opponent can go a long way in determining what you need to worry about.

[oneofchaos]

Here is the thing, I can't even tell you what the corret play is

It depends on the round too.

If this was round one, and I sit down accross from a child, I would not hesitate to go for the necro play - esp. if they mulliganed.

But if i sit down accross from name player or a well dressed adult who handles and shuffles their deck like they know what they are doing, I'd look for other options.

When playing Grim Long, I read body cues ALOT.  It's really important to be able to read your opponent. 

Did they muligan?  Are they tired?  What round is this?  What's your record?  All of these questions are extremely important.

I'll be honest as this backfires a lot.  Mostly to my advantage.  One time at waterbury i played a 8-9 year old kid.  I was thinking sligh, aggro.  Turn 1 lethal tendrills.  To my advantage people say, he's just in high school, no threat.  Turn 1 brokenness and winning.  Basically you can only judge by body cues.  Remember Steve, never judge a book by it's cover.

[ErkBek]

Here's a new one that came up in a tournament the other day.

I'm running GL and my opponent MD gifts. Its game 3 and I'm on the draw. I've boarded in the FoW's and xantids, for 4 duress, regrowth, 1 ESG, and ISeal. He opens up with Usea, ruby, mana crypt. I draw for the turn giving me this hand

1 City
2 BS
1 FoW
1 Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Bargain
1 Windfall

I play lotus petal which he responds with gifts. I let it resolve and he grabs

Mystical, BS, Gifts, and Scroll

He's holding 3 cards at this point. What do you give him? Then what's your play?

[Smmenen]

As the creator of both decks, I'm pretty sure that hte Gifts player got the wrong four cards.  As it stands, I would give them Gifts and Scroll. 

I think the correct play with the Long hand is to play Brainstorm off the Petal.  The actual reason why is pretty complex and convoluted.  I'd have to write two pages on the functionality of windfall, brainstorm, and threat density to adequately explain the reasoning on why Grin Long should play brainstorm here. 

MD Gifts is extremely under rated.  It's the only deck I fear with Grim Long, really. 

[ErkBek]

Thanks for the reply steve. I'd like to see some other opinions before I post what I did and how it played out.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I think you give them Gifts Ungiven and Merchant Scroll, play Mana Crypt, City Of Brass, and Windfall for 4 leaving City untapped. They have definitely painted themselves into a corner here. This Gifts pile indicates that they are holding either slow mana or Force Of Will as they chose not to use the Gifts for mana development. Knowing your deck choice, they would be accelerating if they could, as they are certainly on the clock. If they don't counter Windfall, they are out 2 Gifts and a Scroll, causing several dead draws on their side while only giving them a partial hand. If they happen to have Force, they will be down to a hand of 3 cards and you can then cast Brainstorm to optimize your hand while also having Force + Brainstorm for the Gifts you gave them that they were protecting. To be honest, I really think the Gifts player is screwed from the start with that overzealous opening.

[Purple Hat]

It could be because gifts came around about the time I stopped playing/reading for a while, but I don't see where the gifts player could be going from here that would be helpful to him.  I agree with Tin mox about what you should do.

[Smmenen]

i want to clarify, that i'm not sure which mana i'd [play the brainstorm off, but that's def. what i'd do.  it may depend on what pile they take.

[ashiXIII]

i want to clarify, that i'm not sure which mana i'd [play the brainstorm off, but that's def. what i'd do.  it may depend on what pile they take.

Huh? This is Gifts, not FoF. You choose which pile they get.

[Smmenen]

it depends on what you split.  and which pile you give them, that's what i meant.

[ashiXIII]

it depends on what you split.  and which pile you give them, that's what i meant.

Oh, okay. And with the split mentioned earlier, your play would then be to Brainstorm off the Lotus Petal? Why not off the land, saving the Petal for a possible turn 2 win?

[Smmenen]

Ok, I’ll try to explain how I view this situation.

Despite the fact that the gifts player only has 3 cards in hand, I wouldn’t discount the chance that they have a FoW.  Nonetheless, you want to get them to try to FoW you now.

In my experience, the decision of whether to Brainstorm or Windfall is a fundamental recurring question with Grim Long.  In my experience, the correct answer is usually Brainstorm.    Your hand here has a number of key bombs: 2 brainstorms, windfall, and bargain.  If you windfall for 5, youre dumping a number of key bombs without a good enough chance of seeing that same quality of threats and, in addition, your giving your opponent a chance to just untap and win.  I suppose the only reason to play Brainstomr off the petal is if you are definitely going to use the Petal this turn.  If you are, then there is a slight chance you’ll see Academy.  Imagine you brainstorm into lotus, desire, and something else?  In all likelihood, the gifts player is going to untap and not have drain mana up, but they will for sure have a countrspell next turn.  They’ll play a number of spells.

After the gifts however, your windfall will be looking hot if you can force them to lose those cards and you don’t lose your threats.  Brainstorm back a bargain and brainstorm, play the mana and windfall on turn one is looking to be my plan BEFORE I brainstorm.  After you brainstorm, you’ll have a much better idea of what your plan should in fact be.  You need to be concerned about what they can do.  Meanddck Gifts could explode next turn, so any one of your plans is risky, if you can win on the spot – on this turn without going “all in” – that is, if you can set up a plan to win now with some semblance of a back up plan, I would prefer that plan.  However, if you can set up an unstoppable turn two win, I would also consider that plan.  I think playing City and Brainstorm is probably best.  The reason is that you may need the petal to turn two bargain with fow or duress back up after you see what was in your brainstorm.  IF you see acceleration and play turn one windfall and they fow it, you’ll have bargain on top and then brainstorm underneath that – even if you both get into topdeck mode, I like grim longs chances so long as Gifts doesn’t combo out first.

[Harlequin]

He opens up with Usea, ruby, mana crypt. I draw for the turn giving me this hand
(...)
Mystical, BS, Gifts, and Scroll

Theres alot to be divined from this situation, that we haven't really touched on.
#1 it is rather clear that he does not have Timewalk, lotus, or yawgwill in hand.  because he played crypt not lotus, and he did not just get mana,mana,mana,tutor... or something like that.
#2 He probably has a drain in hand.  Scroll + Gifts means hes probably got potential colorless to burn.
#3 He most likely does not have a second black land in hand.  The reason I am guessing that is because he didn't get DT.  He got blue cards, and even some cheap blue cards with NO open mana.
#4 He may not have a second land.  He may have given you the piles hopeing you would give him Brainstorm so he could find a land.  He may even have DSC in hand.  whenever someone gifts for Brainstorm you have to realise that its rather fishy.... on that note, he ~might~ have ancestral or tinker in hand.  There is a remote chance that he was useing gifts to bait a counterspell (suspecting that you have force in hand).  Useing the gifts to bait into the ancestral or tinker.
#5 if 4 is true, and he was baiting with gifts, then he probably does not have a fow in hand.
#6 if 4 and 5 are true ... why didn't he get force, drain, timewalk, duress... no one really knows.

Which leads me to #7 he could just be being dumb.  You can never really rule out the dumbfactor.  this guy may have made a mistake in his piles, so all this logic and reasoning is more or less shaddowed by a good 50% dumbfactor. 

All of that boils down to Steve's play suggestion.  And, I'll bet dollars to pesos that Steve can calculate better than I can what the opponents remaining 3 cards were.  I just thought I would throw that guess out there to see what people think about attempting to peice together your opponents remainding hand based on a gifts pile.  And also what you think about my logic.