Like we really need another fish build, but...

[Dnine]

OK, I know there have been a lot of different fish posts lately, but I believe this one is different enough to justify a new thread.  Over the last few sets and with coldsnap coming out there has been quite a few new tools for the decks to utilize which is part of the reason. 

I've wanted to play a true fish build for some time.  I have been playing a UBR build that could be called "fish" for several months to moderate success finishing 2ed with it 2 times and making top 8 several others.  I wouldn't call it a fish deck though as the only creatures I ran were Dark Confidant and cutpurse for card draw.  While it did OK for me I always felt that it was underpowered.  Most of my top finishes came mainly from a very predictable metagame here in norcal.  Anyway, enough background, on to building a new fish.

One of the things that kept me from playing fish before was the lack of a cheap threat to apply enough pressure.  Some decks have used cards like Negator to accomplish this, but a 3cc creature that has a drawback and does nothing but swing seems sub par.  Also I never really liked the graveyard hate available to the deck.  W. wretch is a good card, but the BB cc always was a problem, that and the continuous mana drain never felt right in a fish deck and dedicating slots to cards like t. crypt just didn't seem right.  Fish usually doesn't like to tutor for one of answers and running multiple copies of it seems wrong.  Obviously Where I'm going with this is Jotun grunt.  The card alone calls to me to build fish.   While I believe that he is that good, more then one is bad so I'm going to start with 3 in the deck

Meddling mage should be an auto 4 of in any fish build that runs white, this one is no different.

Next I thought about card draw.  Fish likes to draw cards, lots of them.  Immediately I wanted Dark confidant because he is really powerful, but I also have grown less  fond of him lately.  The one toughness has become a fairly large drawback as I'm seeing more and more hate along the lines of darkblast around.  The other option is the ninja which has a lot more synergy with the deck.  It's blue and can bounce the grunts when the upkeep gets too high.  It can also be used to reset a Mmage when needed.  Based on all that I decided to go with the ninja, 4 of them to start.  I'm sure this will be debated, but I believe that they are too important not to run 4 of as they are our main draw engine.

With the ninjas in need some one drops to really utilize them fully.  For me the best one drop creatures in the game are by far goblin welder, which does not fit in this deck at all, and gorilla shaman.  In the past fish usually relies on nul rod to hurt powered decks.  I've never been a fan of it as it can be played around by most players and is dead in many matchups.  Plus it limits what you can play as well.  I've always been a fan of the monkey, but running him means cutting black for red so I have to look at what I lose by doing this and what I gain.  I've already removed most of the common creatures played so I don't have to worry about them, so what that leaves is the hand disruption and tutor effects black brings to fish.  What I get from red is artifact hate, REBs in board, and direct damage.  While I'm a big fan of duress, I believe I can live without it.  Most fish decks do.  The benefit of having a useful 1 drop creature compared to duress seems worth it.

in 3 gorilla shamans

The other loss from black in my opinion is darkblast.  Reuseable welder/bob hate.  And since I still would like more one drops then in comes some javlineers.  Reusable with the ninjas.  The other option is lavamancers, but I'm skeptical running them with the grunts.

in 2 javlineers

Creature base
4 mmages
4 ninjas
3 grunts
3 gorilla shaman
2 javlineers
16

spells

So now we look at what spells/disruption we want to run.  Obviously 4 fows go in.  Ancestral/timewalk and mystical tutor as well.  For me brainstorm seems like a no brainier as well.  This deck will be running at least 6 fetches and with multiple creatures we only want to see one of it seems like a perfect fit.  Gush also seems really good in such a low cc deck and additional card draw is needed. 

Where I'm still debating is the additional disruption.  I've never really been a big fan of daze.  while free counterspells are really good, this one seems very one dimensional.  However, the deck wants to be casting creatures turns 1/2/3 so I can see the need.  I definitely wouldn't want more then 2 and it most likely will be the first cards sided out.  2 misdirection also seem needed for the same reason, but I almost think foil is a better fit.  I was wondering if someone could give some input on way foil isn't played more in fish decks.  The mana requirements for the deck are pretty light so the additional land loss for the ability to discard any card seems acceptable. 

spells:
4 fow
4 brainstorm
2 daze
3 foil
3 stifle
1 ancestral
1 timewalk
1 mystical
1 gush
20

mana base
I've always been a fan of 6 fetchlands.  Not only do they fix mana, but they make brainstorm so much better and help then out the deck which doesn't require much mana in play.   As for artifact mana, on color moxes for sure, lotus and lotus petal.  I don't think the off color moxes would be worth it.  there is not much to accelerate into.  The main question is do I run some strip lands or not.  If I run 6 fetches, 4 tundras, 4 volcanics, and 2 basics then that should give me 16 blue sources, 12 white sources, and 11 red sources with 2 anycolor artifacts as well out of 21 sources.  I could run 3 strip affects for a total of 24 mana sources or run 2 additional lands and add one more nonland card to the deck.  It's a tuff call, but I think 3 strip effects along with stifle seems right.  The deck doesn't have a lot of use for the colorless mana, but the ability to slow my opponent seems worth it.

6 fetches
4 tundra
4 volcanic
1 island
1 plains
3 mox
2 lotus/pedal
1 strip
2 waste
24 mana


sideboard

While this will change drastically depending on meta, I would definitely start with the following
3 rack and ruin
3 reb
2 javlineers
3 swords
2 Kami of ancient law
2 echoing truth(or some other bounce)

[Implacable]

This was a well-rounded post.  I applaud the way that you laid out the reasoning for the Fish build, particularly your creature base.  However, I feel that your spell base is somewhat weak.  You should definitely be running other Chalice of the Void or Null Rod in order to not roll over to combo, which is what I see your deck doing right now.  Furthermore, I would recommend running all five Moxen in order to maximize acceleration.

[Dnine]

I thought about running all moxes, but there really isn't much to accelerate into.  A turn one grunt is only good against dredge decks.  Meddling mage needs on color mana.  The only things I could accelerate into with an off color mox is time walk or turn one shaman and use the off color to eat something.  I can't see a reason for running them. 

As for the combo matchup.  I thought I was pretty good with 7 free counters, 3 stifles and 4 meddling mages.  I explained my exclusion of nul rod, but I never addressed COTV.  It may have a place in this deck as after the first turn the moxes don't help me that much.  I could see maybe running a few of them if I do have a problem with combo.  Good suggestion there. 

[Guli]

I see my thread inspired you. While i dropped the ninja because the lack of 1 drops you added 1 drops and upped the ninja count to 4 and by using one of my favorite 1 drops "Gorila Shaman'. That does require to drop black and i thought about it (i even thought about 4 colors but i discarded that idea fast) and i am not ready to drop the confidants since they are purely POWER in a fish. So the real question is what does red give is? Is it worth the loss of black?

Maindeck
3 Gorillla Shaman

Sideboard
R&R
ReR

These are all  good cards and it is hard to analyse if they are worth it. The sideboard looks stronger. But i would play MAINDECK R&R to deal with Chalice 1 and 2.

ReR will be very strong game 2 and 3 against any deck using force/drain/power. And that is covering a lot of the meta,good pick. Shattering Spree might be interesting aswell if you really want to bring artifact hate against chalice.

Maybe goblin vandal is a better pick in this deck. It will also help to combat chalice 2 wich is nearly impossible for a shaman to kill. In addition to that i would suggest yo play the mana denial strategy if you add red.

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Kataki
2 Goblin Vandal (depends on how many shaman)
2 Gorilla Shaman (depends on how many Vandal)
3 wasteland
1 strip mine

16 mana denial and artifact hate

4 force
3 meddling mage
1 Time walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Ninja
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle (can serve as another mana denial card making the disruption stronger)

21 Blue cards

3 Jötun Grunt
2 Swords to plowshares

Total spells: 39

21 cards for the mana base

6 fetch
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 tundra
4 Volcanic
1 Plateau (you never know)
1 Island
1 Plains

Side:
3 Orim's Chant (combo)
3 ReB (Control)
3 R&R (more hate)
4 Erase (oath)
2 Swords (aggro)


These are my thoughts. Go for the mana disruption. You have a good matchup against stax. You have chalice and stifle/force to fight combo. Ichorid will have to deal with Grunt or they die. I think Oath will be a hard one so the side should have 4 cards anti oath. Bring in the ReR against drain decks.

happy gaming

[BreathWeapon]

Gorilla Shaman costs 1 to destroy a Chalice regardless of its counters, the CC is always 0.

That aside, I don't think Red is worth it in Fish. Kataki is better than Shaman, artificat destruction is worse than Energy Flux, Serenity and arguably even Seal of Cleansing and Annul. Red Elemental Blast is about the only card that is worth its salt, and Duress is comparable in effect and not as limited.

Icatian Javelineer is a house, easily worth MDing 4.

[Mantis]

Just play 4 Confidant AND 4 Ninja. Confidant is only a 2 mana drop and is a HUGE threat at the same time. Your opponent will have to deal with it or roll over. The reason players won't ping your Shamans or Meddling Mages is that they are just much less of a threat. Not running Confidant because there is hate is just silly. Your opponent will have to burn Tutors and lots of mana to burn him, giving you more tempo to swing with your creatures.

I would run 4 Confidant, 4 Jotun Grunt, 4 Mage and 4 Ninja with all 5 Moxen to support them, if I were to run Ninja.

[god_of_war]

daze is great at stealing tempo as you really want to be able to disrupt in the early game. why? its because you are most vunerable at that stage. you might need to counter more than one spell and daze helps you a lot in that aspect.

also on a more personal note. its one thing getting countered by force of will but to get countered because you couldn't pay 1 more colorless mana? its terribly annoying

foil is just to expensive. you need a blue card AND an island to be abel to cast it and sometimes you just dont have that many cards

my 2 cents

[Guli]

Gorilla Shaman costs 1 to destroy a Chalice regardless of its counters, the CC is always 0.

That aside, I don't think Red is worth it in Fish. Kataki is better than Shaman, artificat destruction is worse than Energy Flux, Serenity and arguably even Seal of Cleansing and Annul. Red Elemental Blast is about the only card that is worth its salt, and Duress is comparable in effect and not as limited.

Icatian Javelineer is a house, easily worth MDing 4.

Ah i wasn't sure myself (how noobi of me), is this the same for Engeneered explosives then? Cause i have been testing the explosives in my UBW fish, i wasnt sure if they would destroy a chalice @ 2. I assulem the worst for not getting my hopes up. Well now i am very comfortable with my deck. I found the last missing part of my problem: a maindeck solution for chalice and still usefull for my gameplan.

check out my final list http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28750.msg425473#msg425473

[BreathWeapon]

You can use an Explosives to remove Chalice if you tap a Strip/Waste for one colorless mana, the resolved CC is 1 but it has 0 counters on it so it can deal with a Chalice@0.

[Dnine]

foil is just to expensive. you need a blue card AND an island to be abel to cast it and sometimes you just dont have that many cards

my 2 cents

Foil requires an island and any other card. It doesn't have to be blue.  I do think that I was originally wrong though putting 3 in.  I'd probably cut one for some kind of bounce maindeck.  I have none currently and that could be a problem. 

[Fred The Ev]

I don't think mystical tutor is a very good choice in this deck. The best thing you can Tutor for is Ancestral recall, and that's only a plus one card advantage.... seems very suboptimal to me.

[Yare]

I don't think mystical tutor is a very good choice in this deck. The best thing you can Tutor for is Ancestral recall, and that's only a plus one card advantage.... seems very suboptimal to me.

I used to be a very strong fan of Mystical Tutor, but now I am only a so-so fan of it.  Regardless, I am generally more interested in playing Mystical prior to some kind of draw for Time Walk and getting an extra swing.  Time Walk is that good for fish.

[DoubleDrain]

I don't think mystical tutor is a very good choice in this deck. The best thing you can Tutor for is Ancestral recall, and that's only a plus one card advantage.... seems very suboptimal to me.

mystical is a great way to fetch time walk, which allows a fish deck another all-important attack phase.

combine that with potential card draw via ninja and/or bob's and it is clear why timewalk is stupid good.

fish decks can often REALLY abuse timewalk, and having mystical is like having 2x walk...


EDIT:

what the hell is that grunts card you all keep talking about??