Library of Alexandria in Control Slaver?

[Marek]

Hi, I've been playing control slaver for a decent amount of time now and have been considering cutting Library of Alexandria for the simple fact that it often clogs up getting Mana Drain online and many times games are over before it even gets useful.  It is however very useful for the miror match and versus gifts and other control decks.  What is everyone's opinion on this?  I've been considering something like strip mine in its place.

[Pave]

Strip Mine does nothing to address your original problem of getting two blue mana.  (To my mind the card also runs counter to Slaver's proper role of control: establishing a mana base and drawing the game into its middle and later stages, where the deck's higher curve is rewarded.)

If you find Library a problem in too many match-ups, then simply replace it with an Island or fetch or Lotus Petal and move the card to the sideboard, if you think it worthy of the slot for the control mirror.  I did this after losing an important game to FCG because I did not have Drain mana in time.  My meta also generally features more Wastelands than Forces of Will along with aggressive decks with early threats which I sometimes need to counter.  If I face down an opposing Library game 1 now, I need to play for tempo and push through an early threat (preferably a welded Slaver), which though not my (and I think the deck's) prefered style is still eminently achievable.

[Smmenen]

you have opened a can of worms sir.

This may turn out ot be one oft he most contentious issues and is CERTAINLY unresolvable.

I think that Strip Mine is the correct answers. 

I could blather on for 80 pages why, but it wouldn't change the minds of people who don't agree, so I'm not going to agree and I'm simply going to refrain from any further posting or even reading of this thread. 

[Marek]

Thank you both for replying, and as far as Smmenen's reply, I definetely think that strip is the call but I'm constantly told by others that Library is the correct choice.  I find it in around 90 percent of games to be sub-par.

[The Atog Lord]

Behind Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker, Library of Alexandria wins more games than any other card in the deck. The land taps to draw a card! When I'm sitting down to play a Drain mirror, nothing makes me slump im my chair like the sight of a first turn library across the table from me. With the exception of broken combo-type starts, a Library wins the mirror match. In fact, I have proposed removing Libraries in playtest mirror matches just because they skew results that much.

I have a very hard time understanding what would compell someone to cut this wonderful card. Yes, you have to play well with it to make it work -- but I'd sooner replace the Academy with an Island than replace Library with a Strip Mine. I know quite a few people disagree with me, and I'm sure there will be plenty of posts talking about why cutting Library is correct. But my results and my testing have left no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

[Marek]

Well Rich, i wholeheartedly agree that Library is a wonderful card.  However, i find that in anything BUT the control matchup that it is a "dead" card and does not much more than produce colorless mana.  And by the way (this has nothing to do with this post but...) congrats on the sapphire at abington.  I was the kid with the tutor with obscene objects written in the guys hand.  But back on the subject, don't you think that having the ability to strip a land and produce colorless is better than just producing colorless in most scenario's?

[magus888]

This may seem like a crazy proposal, but if you say LoA is good in the control matchup, why not put it in the sideboard?

[The Atog Lord]

But back on the subject, don't you think that having the ability to strip a land and produce colorless is better than just producing colorless in most scenario's?

It has to do with synergy.

Control Slaver loves drawing cards. And Library helps to do just that. It allows Control Slaver to do its job better and has synergy with the deck's objectives. So, it belongs in the deck.

Stripping a land, while neat sometimes, has nothing to do whatsoever with Control Slaver's gameplan. There are lots and lots of Magic cards that do powerful and even broken things. So many such cards, in fact, that they can't all go into one deck (though Long tries to do this). So, how do we know which cards to put in our decks, and which broken cards to exclude? To me, it is about synergy. It is about letting a deck do its job well. And as restriction-worthy as Strip Mine may be, it doesn't help Control Slaver do its job. So, I don't run it.

[dicemanx]

Rich, practically the entire Canadian Drain-playing contingent is behind you. We won't stop playing LoA in our Drain decks. We won't even explain why, apart from echoing your sentiment that it wins far too many games.

[Purple Hat]

I've personally lost too many games to rich due to LOA to cut it in this environment.  I don't think it's such a sacred card that I wouldn't put it in the board in cartain metas, but it's as close as a card can come.  If you're at a big tournament at least 35-40% of the meta and probably more are gonna be control decks and it's fantastic against all of those.  It's like a metagame slot I'd play in every metagame.

Hale

[MoxMonkey]

I've never cut due to a metagame.  Ive won as many games on turn 1 LOA as I have with a Turn 1 Tinker.

[Kowal]

It should be added that Library can actually fuel wins against decks that aren't control too.  All too often, I've only been able to beat combo for example because I had library to reload after surviving the first turn or two.

I can not even begin to fathom cutting Library in a deck like Control Slaver.

[Demonic Attorney]

Hi, I've been playing control slaver for a decent amount of time now and have been considering cutting Library of Alexandria for the simple fact that it often clogs up getting Mana Drain online and many times games are over before it even gets useful.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but if you don't win games off an early Library, you aren't playing the deck correctly.  Being able to indefinitely outdraw your opponent at a 2:1 ratio is an almost insurmountable advantage.  Three cards in CS win me at least one game per tournament by themselves, and frequently a few more.  Those cards are:  Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Library of Alexandria.  Seriously, anyone who can't consistently win games with an active Library needs to revise their strategy with CS. 

[TK]

as previous posts have said already and i agree library just wins to many games. usually when i go to a tourney with slaver i win at least 2-3 games on the fact i had a first turn library and my opponent could do nothing about it.

As for the argument which is better library or strip why not just run both. Most lists i run tend to include crucible so strip becomes another card that i consider a must since it enables another lock in the deck.

I think i once cut library from one of my drain based control decks for a tourney and just about everygame i saw library replacement i was kicking myself.

[Moxlotus]

I think if there's anytime to cut LoA, its right now.  Duress is a 4-of in so many decks right now, why make that card even better than it is by allowing it so screw up a land drop?  The format is moving away from card advantage being the most important thing.  Tempo and quick answers are what decks want now.  LoA doesn't do that.

No doubt it is good in the control mirror, but its bad against decks that run Shop or Dark Ritual.  Richmond had 1 winner with LoA and 1 winner without.

[kirdape3]

The only arguments against that line of reasoning are this: Library of Alexandria takes two or three turns for the advantage to be absolute.  Combo decks most often won't give you that many unmolested turns, and if they do then they've most likely made you cast Force of Will to disable your Library access.  Strip Mine at least attempts to disable their mana supply long enough for the rest of CS' glacial engine to come online.  Rather than making a matchup that should be pretty good already into another easy win, Strip Mine over Library is trying to address a normally less than stellar matchup.

That being said, I'd probably want to club Drain decks like a baby seal more than I would combo decks - BUT if you see a lot of combo decks then Library of Alexandria is a marginal card.

[Shock Wave]

Strip Mine at least attempts to disable their mana supply long enough for the rest of CS' glacial engine to come online.  Rather than making a matchup that should be pretty good already into another easy win, Strip Mine over Library is trying to address a normally less than stellar matchup.

I'm not understanding how Strip Mine enables CS' engine. You're trading a land for land, you're not "enabling" anything. It doesn't really address anything vs. combo, because it doesn't stop a nutty draw the way FoW or Duress does. Is LoA better vs. combo? Certainly not, but I don't think Strip Mine siginificantly shores up the matchup and it definitely is not an engine enabler.

As Rich has already stated, Strip Mine has no synergy with the CS gameplan, which is to just shit on their opponent. Drawing cards seems synergistic with that goal. Mana denial is not the objective with this deck, and sacrificing an early land drop seems like an even worse idea. Furthermore, CS generally has few ways to compliment an early Strip Mine. The deck does not run Wastelands, and 1 Gorilla Shaman (if any). Can you guys fill me in on what I am missing out on?

[warble]

Include Library of Alexandria because it wins the mirror match.  I've used absolutely every tutor to get library of alexandria up in a mirror match, and it was worth it every time.  It's easy to sideboard library out against decks like combo...you take it and swap it with a sideboard card...  What you have to demonstrate is there's some matchup that is somehow better with strip mine than it is with library of alexandria.  With Rich maindecking tormod's crypt it's easy for him to not play strip but for you you might be tempted.  I'm not tempted, library is a card that spans multiple CCG's and in every CCG a library-like card was in the library of alexandria card kicked the bajeezus out of people who didn't have it in their deck.  The same can be said of time walk...every CCG with a time walk almost every deck plays with it.  Sorry to rant about other CCG's but I mean it's not just magic, it's every card game that drawing extra cards for NO RESOURCES it amazing.  You don't cast, you just draw 1 more.  That's like 2 turns every turn.  I contemplated taking library out for boseiju, but boseiju sucks except in the control mirror.  Library does NOT suck except in the mirror.  I am also pregnant with library of alexandria's baby.

[Mark_Story]

I don't think there is a way you can prove that strip mine enables anything in CS.  It has some synergy with crucible of worlds, which is useful in wasteland heavy metas.  However, crucible is useful in a number of situations.  I've found that strip mine can be a win more card, or it serves to solidify an already steep advantage.  If you are behind in the game ripping a strip mine will often not help you, unless you can remove a critical land like bazaar, opposing library, or academy.  If the choice is between library and strip mine and library, I would choose library.

[zeus-online]

Its won me far more games then i have ever lost because of it being colorless...and those few games that i've lost due to loa giving colorless, was mostly due to bad mulligan decisions on my part.

Just swap it, play a bit without it...and then in a month or two, put it back in, and see what you like best!

/Zeus

[oneofchaos]

Also seems to be nice with memory jar

[kirdape3]

I do believe that by slowing combo decks down a turn, you actually help enable your own survival - the engine that CS needs the most.  The best combo decks have a favorable matchup against CS by presenting threats faster than CS can reload it's own defenses - Strip Mine constrains their ability to present threats until the slower Thirst for Knowledge can come online.

[LordHomerCat]

On stripping a land against combo:  they don't run very many.  CS just plain runs more lands than Grim or IT, so if you strip their land, yes, it puts you even on the board, but you are gonna have your next land drop a lot more often than they are, so it is much more likely to be to your benefit to rewind a turn than theirs.

[Shock Wave]

I do believe that by slowing combo decks down a turn, you actually help enable your own survival - the engine that CS needs the most.  The best combo decks have a favorable matchup against CS by presenting threats faster than CS can reload it's own defenses - Strip Mine constrains their ability to present threats until the slower Thirst for Knowledge can come online.

Strip Mine does not enable Thirst for Knowledge. The only way it "enables" TfK is if you're tapping it for mana, which is not the context of use which we're discussing here. In the crucial first 2 turns against combo (I assume we're talking about GL), Strip Mine does not adequately disrupt combo enough to swing the game into an advantageous position for CS. It is not inadequate because destroying a land is inadequate, but rather because it does not progress the CS gameplan (advance board position, get drain online, draw cards). It does not help CS survive any more than delaying the game 1 turn. If the combo player drops another land, you're back to square one.

It would be great if it had a supporting cast, because coupled with Wastelands/Shaman/Cotv/Rod, it can definitely be a debilitating play. However, by itself, in a control deck with very limited mana denial elements, it is a very ambitious attempt at disruption.

On stripping a land against combo:  they don't run very many.  CS just plain runs more lands than Grim or IT, so if you strip their land, yes, it puts you even on the board, but you are gonna have your next land drop a lot more often than they are, so it is much more likely to be to your benefit to rewind a turn than theirs.

The relevant question here is: how often does using Strip Mine influence the game vs. combo in such a manner that significantly swings the game in CS' favour? Sometimes combo doesn't need another land drop. Sometimes CS may need that Strip Mine for mana. There is no way to determine this without empirical evidence, but from my perspective, an isolated Strip Mine effect on the combo matchup is borderline negligible.

[Scoops666]

Another point is the misconception that Library is bad outside of the Control mirror. Sure, you may not be able to activate it early against decks you have to throw counters at early. However, what is the one thing CS does better than just about any deck? Draw cards. The deck is basically composed of 50% card draw (exageration I know, but it gets the point across). I've had games where I've used enough counters and other control elements to be down to 3 cards in hand, and in just 1 turn, was able to start tapping Library for cards. The deck is just capable of drawing so many cards, it's almost as if all the Brainstorms, TFK's, Nights Whispers, etc., are there to fuel the Library.

[seer]

This isn't all that relevant since most people aren't playing TPS/iT style combo, but against slower combo decks library is actually pretty amazing in CS. It is your "clock".

Granted, it isn't all that great against grim long. Board it out on the play.

An unanswered library against, fish, stx, etc is pretty much an auto-win. Stax can play 2 spheres of resistance, a hand that would normally CRUSH slaver. But with an unanswered library for a few turns the slaver player can easily get out from underneath the spheres.

[ELD]

Library is without a doubt one of the most important cards in the deck.  Vs control it's nearly unbeatable.  Vs combo, it lets you tap to draw, then duress and really push the advantage.  It also allows you to keep filling your hand so you can force and not fall behind.  Then it allows you to build up resources during the mid game and just win.  Vs aggro it is extremely strong, as it lets you build up CA early and then trade it for a combo style finish.  This is especially true as Drain isn't as key vs aggro until you're ready to go nuts.  I see the vast majority of players play with Library poorly. 

I find that the skill level in vintage is a huge factor, and I think library shows this.  I've seen too many players walk away from library and lose games they should have won.  In the hands of a skilled player, a library draw is golden.  A weaker player will often flub it and not keep it online long enough. 

[FlamingCloud]

I think if there's anytime to cut LoA, its right now.  Duress is a 4-of in so many decks right now, why make that card even better than it is by allowing it so screw up a land drop?  The format is moving away from card advantage being the most important thing.  Tempo and quick answers are what decks want now.  LoA doesn't do that.

No doubt it is good in the control mirror, but its bad against decks that run Shop or Dark Ritual.  Richmond had 1 winner with LoA and 1 winner without.

Duress may be at an all time high, but wastelands are way way down right now.. Even the decks that run wasteland aren't even running 4 anymore.  And a wasteland in response to a LoA will always be a better answer then a duress, (where they will just TFK or Scroll->Recall or skip a land drop to get back to 7)  Duress heavy enviroment with people hating on artifacts less and less.. seems like a perfect time for stax to come back full tilt.

[AJFirst]

This started as a thread, and ended as a manslaughter.
-AJ

Damn standards for posts having content...I think Library wins too many games to cut. Screw Duress, Wasteland and Blood Moon/B2B are reasons to not play Library in a specific metagame, but it's just too good. Stax without the playset of Wastes, the Library lets you hit all your land drops to eventually win. The control Mirror it is just stupid good single-handedly winning the game. Against GrimLong you could just board it out on the play, but on the draw (if you're not dead) it's very good even if it just draws one before you have to FoW a game-winning Will. A CiPT land that cantrips? Sign me up!

My favorite game-state ever is a control mirror with both players working active Libraries. Ugh...so intense...

[forests failed you]

Loa and Strip Mine both rotate in and out of my decks based upon the type of match ups I'm excpecting to play.  It wins dopey games where you just have it in your opening hands, cool.  But there are a lot of match ups where you have to empty your hand quickly to survive.  in these match ups LoA isn't the hots.

Also, against decks that play Duress (which is all of the decks that tend to beat up on Slaver in the first place)  LoA is doubley bad since sometimes you can't even get it online at all as a result of a craftily placed Duress.

Strip Mine, and Crucible are equally game ending in the control Mirror.  But also against Stax, Agro, well, pretty much against everything except two land if you get it going.

If I intend to be playing against decks that are going to be waste landing my lands and null rodding my moxes.  I play COW in my decks.  Since I already have COW in those types of Metagames I can't justify not playing strip mine over LoA.  However, if I intend to be playing in a meta where I don't need COW, I play LoA, because obviously it is a more control oriented meta/  or, so I'm assuming.

Both are clearly very powerful, but I just can't get behind the logic of "it wins the mirror"  In a tourney you play more not mirrors, than mirrors.  I try and figure out what percentage of the field will be playing which decks, and then I decide if it is a LoA kind of field, or a COW S.mine kind of field. 

I don't think it is a matter of one card being better, or deserving a place, more than another.  But, rather of evaluting a metagame and deciding which card will allow you a deck that can make top eight.