The Mountains Win Again

[wethepeople]

...where as STP and Pyroblast commonly are [dead cards].

I know that this is anecdotal, but I recently played in a large Vintage tournament.  Of my 6 rounds, Pyroblast would have been dead exactly once.  It's a great hate card maindeck, and I consider it the equal of Misdirection, because, after all, they are both used against blue control for much the same purpose.

Yes, that is true, but Misdirection is run to work as a 4-8 Force of Will. The decks that do run it use it to ensure that they win the counter war over something important, however, in here, REB is just to randomly save your ass from a counter, or a bomb dropped by your opponent. It being a 1'of makes it too inconsistent for me to ever respect it, and rarely are you ever going to find yourself using Demonic Tutor to fetch a Red Elemental Blast.

I wouldn't doubt that it would have helped you out several times in a tournament, and it may very well have a few times, so running additional ones would be fine, and I have no problem with that. The problem I see is that it is just too random for you to count on it, and would much rather prefer using an additional copy of a card already used in the maindeck, or, something that you would in fact Tutor for in various different situations. (e.g. Engineered Explosives)

Dan, you have any specific modifications targeted towards NE's most recent meta-game?

I am considering running additonal REB's maindeck, or, cutting the lonesome entirely and using something else. Recently, I have been trying things like Engineered Explosives as my primary removal tool, and a slightly lower number of Swords to Plowshares, seeing as I am facing Goblin tokens more often than Meddling Mages.

400. 

[Myriad Games]

Dan, you have any specific modifications targeted towards NE's most recent meta-game?

Yes indeed. There will be many changes with Planar Chaos, so I've been trying out a variety of options. I hear Gifts is popular so I've been keeping that matchup in mind.

[wethepeople]

Dan, you have any specific modifications targeted towards NE's most recent meta-game?

Yes indeed. There will be many changes with Planar Chaos, so I've been trying out a variety of options. I hear Gifts is popular so I've been keeping that matchup in mind.

Yes, Gifts is going to require a lot of consideration when I put together my next build. I wouldn't doubt Stax coming back, due to the release of Tomb of Yawgmoth, and possibly Extirpate.

Ichorid for some reason is appearing to be less-common. It may have something to due with the Extirpate, but only 12 Ichorid decklists showed up at Stratford on both day 1 and 2 combined, out of 200 or so.

I am going to continue testing one Extirpate maindecked, because it is strong, don't get me wrong, just I don't think it is good enough to run many more, two being the maximum. Have you been trying them out at all lately?

[Nastaboi]

I tested the deck a little for a some time. Some thoughts:

1) I found not needing Jitte, Needle or 25th mana source on the deck.

2) I found threat density somehow lacking. If my opponent removes Confidant and counters Grunt, I'm with no threats and he has more than enough time to play his own game. I think that more creatures are needed, couple of Phyrexian Negators maybe?

3) Two Stops are enough.

4) I liked Duress and Therapy, but I found myself wanting red blasts.

I would test with following changes on Dan's latest list:

-1 land
-1 Jitte
-2 Therapy

+2 Negator
+2 Pyroblast

A singleton Extirpate should also be tested.

[keys]

-1 land
-1 Jitte
-2 Therapy

+2 Negator
+2 Pyroblast

A singleton Extirpate should also be tested.

I think Kataki would be better than Negator, which is a huge Drain target without the rituals to play him turn 1.  Otherwise, I repeat the sentiment that 2 additional threats is a good idea.  Also, moving 2 Therapies to the SB, replacing them with 2 Pyroblasts, would further facilitate Burning Wish.

-2 Cabal Therapy
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Burning Wish
-2 SB Pyroblast
+2 SB Cabal Therapy

Now Burning Wish can fetch both Flashbacked AND SB Therapies.

Then I would try to fit in 2 Kataki somewhere.  Possibly in place of a land and a tool as Nastaboi suggested.

[Myriad Games]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I agree that the deck needs more creatures. Negator seems too slow without Rituals. Pyroblasts in the main are performing very well. Jitte is less good because of the fewer creatures. I think it's best in decks with 16-20 dudes as opposed to 12-14.

One major point of focus for the deck is between mana denial strategies and card denial strategies. Both are valid options and certainly The Mountains Win Again has been primarily a mana denial focused deck in most iterations. With the exit of Team Artifact Destruction, that element of the deck has been severely de-emphasized.

[wethepeople]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I agree that the deck needs more creatures. Negator seems too slow without Rituals. Pyroblasts in the main are performing very well. Jitte is less good because of the fewer creatures. I think it's best in decks with 16-20 dudes as opposed to 12-14.

One major point of focus for the deck is between mana denial strategies and card denial strategies. Both are valid options and certainly The Mountains Win Again has been primarily a mana denial focused deck in most iterations. With the exit of Team Artifact Destruction, that element of the deck has been severely de-emphasized.

Personally, I feel that mana denial is a bit weak right now. It seems like everyone runs Basics, or, people have very well just learned to play around them.

TAD had it's time, but, with Workshop decks being so uncommon right now, it isn't a great loss. We must now focus on Team Gifts Ungiven Destruction. Red Elemental Blasts, Cabal Therapy, H/S, and Duress have all been strong lately. With a fair amount of testing, I can say that 1-2 Extirpates are strong in our current metagame.

I tried Negators before, and they were terrible. Not being able to get them out until turn three was terrible, because by that time, my opponent was sitting on {U} with a Drain at hand, just waiting for something juicy like Gator to be cast.

TMWA has changed oh-so much since my first post, which was in fact found in this very thread.

[Nastaboi]

I like Negator, because I need threats in topdeck mode. But there are threats in 2 mana, too:

Rotting Giant - nice, but it's another creature that needs grave to be effective
Wretched Anurid - adds vulnerability to ETW, but no other real drawback
Serra Avenger - difficult mana cost and can't be played early
Blind Creeper - just dies
Drekavac - that might just work, taken that people used to use Kris Mage
Flesh Reaver - hits really hard, but hits you back a relevant amount
Raving Oni-Slave - same as above, but smaller
Skittering Skirge - difficult mana cost, reasonable drawback
Genju of the Spires - too few mountais to support

I'd try Anurid or Drekavac before utility creatures. The deck as it is has a rather poor clock, and I'd like to fasten it if possible.

[Myriad Games]

Threat density is an important consideration, but I think we need to focus on threats that disrupt as well. Running a creature that just beats is harder to justify in quantity because it just sits there in most matchups. There has to be utility to the creature that warrants its inclusion. New versions of the deck increase the number of overall creatures and facilitate Jitte in either the main or the board as well.

[wethepeople]

I have been using REB in a lot of my more-recent builds, it has been great. It saves your ass from Mana Drains, as well as protects you from various opposing bombs.

One question, why doesn't The Mountains use Chalice of the Void, or Null Rod?

[Myriad Games]

Agreed that REB and Pyroblast are very potent in the current metagame. The proliferation of control decks containing a ton of blue bombs makes them a solid main deck inclusion and a definite sideboard card. We've tried Chalice and/or Null Rod in the past and may use them again in the future. They're just a part of the disruption arsenal available to all decks.

I'm awaiting the March B/R list update with interest to see if/how the metagame will shift and tune the deck accordingly.

[Myriad Games]

Well, I was holding off on doing much more active development with the list until after today, with the latest banned and restricted list updates. Since there were no changes to the format, it looks like we'll need to settle in for another long stretch of Gifts control dominating top tables. Since Gifts doesn't exactly fit well in The Mountains Win Again, I think we firmly fall into the ~50% of decks-that-don't-run-Gifts category.  Therefore, we'll have a serious need to keep ready answers and a solid disruption base aimed at the current top control/combo deck.

[Myriad Games]

So, Mike Bergeron made Top 8 at ELD's 3rd tournament yesterday.

Congratulations Mike!

You can check out his list here.

The matchup against Gifts isn't nearly so intimidating with the latest builds.

Thoughts on The Mountains in the current metagame?

[mike_bergeron]

Thanks Dan!

Mountains is easily my favorite deck to play in vintage, even more so that mono blue flying men. In my list, the yawg's will was more of a joke than anything, so assume it is out. (i just heard it was so good I had to try it!)

Although I have been playing mountains for a limited time, and in no way as experienced as Ball & Chain members with this deck, I have found a couple things to be true in my play:

-2 Cabal Therapy is enough Maindeck. I think Duress is the better card, with Cabal Therapy being the bomb threat. plus, with flashbck I can play it 4 times anyways. 

-First turn Tormod's Crypt is amazing, especially when you are packing a duress as well. Overall, I loved my crypts (3) all day long.

-The deck runs off confidant, and without him you are subpar at best. you need an active confidant to win most games. thankfully, i had first turn confidant many times at ELD's tourney.  (thanks lotus petal!)

-Wastelands are no longer in my plan for mountains. gifts adjusted with 3 islands, and bomberman runs islands as well. strip mine is still a great card though....which also leads me to my next point....

-Null rod schmull rod. I never missed it, although I am sure I will change my opinion next week in time to fight off bill cosby t-shirted members with it.

-Gorilla shaman will be cut for the next tourney. I love that monkey, but he just doesn't do enough! I played my dwarf before the monkey every time.

-Pyroblast is one step away from cheating. I think there is an article of how it should be banned somewhere. worst case it feeds your grunts, best case it wins a game solely on screwing your opponent.

-Bloodfire dwarf has utility. I liked him all day long, and my opponent round 1 even mentioned how he was good in the Mountains mirror as well.  (YES, THERE WAS A ROUND 1 MIRROR...and it was epic)

*Cards I did not get to play in the tournament: Balance, Pyro Pillar*

Decisions I felt good about: sacred ground (standard fare) and shattering spree. makes games 2+3 against stax winnable by turn 3 or 4. sorry Bill, but you two-ohhhhhhhhed me last time we played.

Where I could have made better choices: gorilla shaman out- orim's chant in. also, my sideboard had 2 black knights for the U/W fish matchup which could have been better choices for combo games. Extirpate is gone, and I don't think I will see that back for a while. 



I had a great time playing this deck, and will continue to try new cards and ideas. Props to Dan, Ball & Chain, and everyone who has made this deck so fun to play. 

[Bill Copes]

Decisions I felt good about: sacred ground (standard fare) and shattering spree. makes games 2+3 against stax winnable by turn 3 or 4. sorry Bill, but you two-ohhhhhhhhed me last time we played.

You had some pretty nice opening hands in games 2+3 -- sacred ground and multiple moxen both games! 

Congrats on the top 8!

[Nantuko]

I think Bloodfire dwarf is nice,is the ETW sollution taht im searching

[wethepeople]

I think Bloodfire dwarf is nice,is the ETW sollution taht im searching

There is actually a very good amount of answers avaiable in the RBW color-range. Red has always been known for it's burn spells, most commonly cards like Lightning Bolt, and Shock, but red offers a vast amount of others, that do small amounts of damage, to unlimited quantities of 1/1 creatures, one of which being Goblin tokens.

White also has various different creature removal spells, and presents fair amounts of mass removal spells. Several of which have been gone over in the ""Stax and Workshop Aggro's answers to ETW" thread.

Black has a sligtly lower amount of answers, but still is not lacking in those areas. Some of which conist of, but not limited to Echoing Decay, Engineered Plague, and Massacre.

I haven't had any problem at all finding cards that can effectively answers to Empty the Warrens tokens with access to these three colors, however, determining the overall best choice is slightly more difficult. What do you guys think is the best weapon of choice when it comes to Empty the Warrens?

[TopSecret]

     There are a lot of cards that can kill a bunch of 1/1's.
   The main problem is finding one that isn't dead outside of answering EtW.

     Bloodfire Dwarf is a good answer for a couple reasons:
     He's a creature, so he can beat, equip Jitte, and sacrifice to Therapy.
    Also, he only costs one and he can be cast proactively, before EtW with counter backup hits,
     or worse, Time Walk backup.

     Engineered Explosives is another good answer, because it can blow up Moxen, other creatures...etc.
     
     Tabernacle is nice because it's hard to remove, and situationally amazing.
     Unfortunately, it's dead in a lot of scenarios, and TMWA uses creatures.

     Slice and Dice is also nice, in that it can't be countered, and draws a card.
     Unfortunately, its very narrow outside of EtW, and it flips for 6 damage from Dark Confidant.

     There are plenty of other cards that are good against EtW specifically, and good sideboard material against Fish.
     Unfortunately, sideboarding in a lot of narrow answers to EtW isn't always best against Combo/Control.
     You could just end up losing to Colossus or Tendrils,
    or even worse, lose to EtW anyway, when you only have enough mana to cast one answer and it gets countered.

[Myriad Games]

Craig Dupre made Top 8 last weekend. You can check out his decklist in the report here.

Thoughts?

[Myriad Games]

  - Seht's Tiger

Creature - Cat

Flash
When it comes into play, you gain protection from the color of your choice until the end of the turn

3/3

Anyone think Seht's Tiger deserves a spot in The Mountains Win Again?

[Implacable]

It costs four mana!  For goodness sakes, 4CC creatures are by-in-large too slow for Type 2 aggro, let alone Type 1 aggro.

[Nantuko]

It costs 4 mana,I prefer orims chant or korlis.
I think that with this deck you can win again combo in the turn 4 that is when you can play the cat,the problem are the first and the second turn and the cat isnt the sollution,but its only my opinion

[Myriad Games]

I concur with these assessments. While it's cool and cute, this cat is too clunky.

[redmage419]

I'd have to agree on the cat.

What's really got me wondering is Magus of the Moon. Is a 2/2 Blood Moon a feasible/worthwhile choice for TMWA?

[wethepeople]

I'd have to agree on the cat.

What's really got me wondering is Magus of the Moon. Is a 2/2 Blood Moon a feasible/worthwhile choice for TMWA?

No, that would only work in a Mono deck that doesn't so heavily rely on it's other colors to win. Unfortunately, this deck does need white, and even black, because it provides a wide-range of great creatures, draw, and disruption.

[TopSecret]

     If someone could make either a solid Mono-Red Burninator list,
     I think Magus of the Moon could be very good.

   He costs three mana though.
   Does anyone think it would be possible to build a 2-3 color list with a lot of basics and fetches,
   so that you could still have access to Duress, Therapy, or Chant, (depending of te disruption you wanted)
   but still get some decent milage out of the Magus?
    It could be a way to make the mana denial aspect of red aggro more viable.
    Of course... There're still basic Islands to deal with...

[Myriad Games]

I think Magus of the Moon could be applied, but certainly not very successfully in the present metagame. You just don't have time to get him on board and there are so many basic Islands floating around.

[rkmancer]

I'm a red lover n really excited to play this deck. .
I've just enter 2 vintage tournament in last 2 weeks. .n of course run my TMWA deck to have 3 victories in the 1st tournament and 2 in the 2nd (each have 4 rounds). .My deck build based on this forum (by someone who's named Dan i think. .thx a lot yawh) with version which still brought 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Jotun, 4 Grim, Balance, Jitte, n Extirpate. .no Orim n Cruicible. .With 95% same cards in the MD n some changes in SB (i put some kataki n blood night). .

1st week :
1st : against monoStax (with MetalWorker n Staff of Domination, maybe we may call it MUD). .no problem!! The TMWA prove itself so strong against the Stax. .null rod n 4 hide/seek in MD, 3 kataki n 4 spree from SB make me feel have all solution that i need. .

2nd : against Bomberman. .well. .duress, cabal's therapy, tormod's, jotun, pithing, stp, null rod, n extirpate r enough. .win!!

3rd : against UW Fish. .i only depends on stp n my lovely Grim, who's always come in the right time. .so lucky. .i fry the fish. .

4th : OMG, tyrant oath was too strong for me. .even my hand have stp, hide/seek, pyroblast, n duress. .still. .i can't handle it. .is it my bad?? or maybe this deck not good enough against oath??

2nd week :
1st : against UB Landstill, well. .such a weird deck, i don't know combo use standstill, nevy (also EE n pow keg), mishra's factory, cruicible, n academy ruin can do something really awesome. .no chance. .i lost >.< (even i extirpate his mishra's, he still win with my deck depleted. .wawh)

2nd : against survival deck, pitting, hide/seek, duress , n extirpate. .i think it's enough. .

3rd : manaless ichorid. .i hv a bad draw. .no comments about this round.. .

4th : elves combo ( with biorythm. .am i spell it right??), i lost, maybe bloodfire dwarf is the answer for this deck. .but in SB, ,he has gaea's anthem n caller of the claw. .ckck. .but what can i say. .the elves deck is my deck too 

My question is. .about my loss. .against UB Landstill n especially the TyrantOath. .how can i do about it??
Everyturn destroying my nonland permanent n cunningwish R/D (oath is hard to tough without them) is too much to be handled. .How can i change my deck to be powerfull against those two but still have advantage against previous decks. .Maybe it's impossible to have a perfect deck that may counter all deck in meta. .but maybe we can try. .

May i include some new cards (from future sight) to it?? But which card 's worthed?? As long as i see. .the best card for this deck is that zombie wizard (cards in graveyard lose all abilities. .nize. .but what for??). .then if I put some magus of the moon there. .i think i should put some simian spirit guide too since the moon man cost 3 (it's different deck maybe, the Jaws made by someone nicknamed Harlequin  ). .

---ckckc. .if u find some spelling that's not usual. .please forgive me  . .my english's not that good----

[wethepeople]

Once Future Sight is released, the entire deck will of coursed need to be completely thoughtover again, because it is clear that the format will be changing drastically. Ichorid, and Combo are what have been my biggest threats lately, so they will be seriously considered when putting together my next few builds.

I have actually tried cutting red entirely from the deck, because I no longer feel that the spells provided are really necessary anymore.

[Myriad Games]

Thank you for the mini tournament report, 'Mancer. Glad to hear you're having fun with the deck. Stax and Fish have traditionally been strong matchups for TMWA, mostly due to the deck-defining presence of red. Oath has traditionally been weak. Recent versions of the deck have adjusted to the increase in Gifts, Combo, Bomberman, et al. If the metagame decreases significantly in these areas then I could certainly see a version running just W/B and dropping red. That deck would not be Mountains. Remember, this deck started out as mono red.

One of my favorite observations about The Mountains Win Again came this past weekend where Brassman stated that he couldn't make a version of Mountains for his playtest gauntlet box because the next week the deck would be totally different. This certainly seems valid in that it takes intensive consideration of the constantly changing metagame to play the deck. That's what I enjoy, and that's why I continue to look forward to the developments of the deck.

Future Sight will dramatically change the face of the Vintage landscape and TMWA will accordingly undergo some drastic adjustments. I look forward to the challenge and the fun of playing!