Pitch Long

[Whatever Works]

I cut Cabal Ritual # for Tendrils #2. Another thing nobody has mentioned that with 2 tendrils you can often combo out a bit more easily, because your more likely to draw a tendrils off a draw 7 which can instantly end the game. More likely able to flip a tendrils off a mind's desire (this I guess can be looked at as a win more). Also it means your less likely to have to need that extra tutor to find that 1 tendrils to combo. One last point is you can often bluff not having a tendrils, and with mana floating cast that grim tutor and act like its your make and break spell... then have your opponents up the storm for you as they counter it... to cast tendrils from your hand immedietly after.

None of these reasons are particularly amazing. but they do exist, and are effective. 1 tendrils is most efficient, and better against the best decks in the format, but 2 tendrils in a metagame where bad cards exist (most places) its often worth giving up a small ammount of efficiency for security. Because you will lose less games from running 2 tendrils then from odd occurences.

Kyle L

[Implacable]

I cut Cabal Ritual # for Tendrils #2. Another thing nobody has mentioned that with 2 tendrils you can often combo out a bit more easily, because your more likely to draw a tendrils off a draw 7 which can instantly end the game. More likely able to flip a tendrils off a mind's desire (this I guess can be looked at as a win more). Also it means your less likely to have to need that extra tutor to find that 1 tendrils to combo. One last point is you can often bluff not having a tendrils, and with mana floating cast that grim tutor and act like its your make and break spell... then have your opponents up the storm for you as they counter it... to cast tendrils from your hand immedietly after.

None of these reasons are particularly amazing. but they do exist, and are effective. 1 tendrils is most efficient, and better against the best decks in the format, but 2 tendrils in a metagame where bad cards exist (most places) its often worth giving up a small ammount of efficiency for security. Because you will lose less games from running 2 tendrils then from odd occurences.

Kyle L

Eww...  Are you sure about cutting a Cabal?  I've found that, no matter the Long deck, you need 8 sources.  In GrimLong, it was 4+2+2, and in Pitch, it's 4+4.  When you cut that down, do you find that it hurts your mana production drastically?  PitchLong is very good at getting Threshhold very quickly.

[Whatever Works]

I cut Cabal Ritual # for Tendrils #2. Another thing nobody has mentioned that with 2 tendrils you can often combo out a bit more easily, because your more likely to draw a tendrils off a draw 7 which can instantly end the game. More likely able to flip a tendrils off a mind's desire (this I guess can be looked at as a win more). Also it means your less likely to have to need that extra tutor to find that 1 tendrils to combo. One last point is you can often bluff not having a tendrils, and with mana floating cast that grim tutor and act like its your make and break spell... then have your opponents up the storm for you as they counter it... to cast tendrils from your hand immedietly after.

None of these reasons are particularly amazing. but they do exist, and are effective. 1 tendrils is most efficient, and better against the best decks in the format, but 2 tendrils in a metagame where bad cards exist (most places) its often worth giving up a small ammount of efficiency for security. Because you will lose less games from running 2 tendrils then from odd occurences.

Kyle L

Eww...  Are you sure about cutting a Cabal?  I've found that, no matter the Long deck, you need 8 sources.  In GrimLong, it was 4+2+2, and in Pitch, it's 4+4.  When you cut that down, do you find that it hurts your mana production drastically?  PitchLong is very good at getting Threshhold very quickly.

Running 3 Cabal Rituals has never been an issue for me. I still win turn 1 with same % of games, and I am rarely ever short on mana. If TPS can win with 3 more lands and no cabal rituals. Then this deck should definetly be fine with 7 rituals.

I will go as far to say that I often board out 1 of my 3 cabal rituals in the control matchups, b/c my games work in the manner where my bomb is going to resolve... Or... It isnt... Cabal Ritual only really shines in the stax matchup, and vs. Chalice at 1... Its a great card dont get me wrong. but I have rarely drawn my 2nd tendrils... and said... if only this was a cabal ritual!

Personally, I find argueing the 2nd kill condition to be sooo incredibly pointless considering the greater discussions of more value that could be discussed concerning the sideboard plans.

1.) Orim's chant vs. Stifle vs. Duress?
2.) Is envelop tech in the mirrror?
3.) Do you board out tutors if so which?
4.) Do you board out misdirection vs. dragon?
5.) What do you think of plague spitter?
6.) rebuild/hurkyls/chain of vapor... what combination in board?
7.) Whats the proper ammount of bounce in the board?
8.) How many cards can you board in w/o slowing deck down to much?
9.) Have you ever boarded out lands vs. decks that dont run strip affects?

Those are just some questions I think deserve more attention then a question that we all know has no agreeable answer since it comes down strictly to play style, and metagame fears.

Kyle L.

[betafoil]

Alright all of this has become annoying enough that i went out and got a Marna drain account. Firstly there is no reason to run tendrils number 2 mainboard. I hear everyone talking about how it is hard to reach lethal storm or loosing b/c of discarding tendrils in a necro or your tendrils is in your jar hand. That is not a reason at all, you simply are not being ingenuitive enough. I have not once ever had trouble reaching 10 storm and i generally finish at about 16-22. This deck loves all the accelerants and cutting something like mis-d number 3 is not right. I get so many turn 1 and 2s from having a single mis-d or force in hand to protect that bomb like bargain. And on the extract note i have a question for everyone: How many people have actually lost even a game 1 to main deck extract. It almost never happens its much more common in the board. So i do advocate tendrils number 2 in the board. Though in this deck colossus is not needed. Now all that being said i do see one other problem other than the natural bad plays made by storm combo players. That is that people are oversidboarding for matches. As an example against team gws at gencon they were bringing in duress and envelop and tendrils # 2 if i am not mistaken. By comparison i brought in 3 duress and in tendrils # 2 (though the second tendrils is not needed but i brought it in incase they brought in extract for game 2) and took out 3 mis-d and 1 necro. i beat Becker and Endress in each mirror b/c they over sided. They kept hands with protection and i kept hands with bombs. They lost b/c this deck does not really care too much about protection until the later turns. This deck does not usually let your opponent get to the later turns. So when sideboarding consider this.

Side note: Stax is a little different b/c of the nature of the deck vs yours in that match-up you can side more without hazard b/c you are not unlikely to win quick if they have a turn.

[Implacable]

Alright all of this has become annoying enough that i went out and got a Marna drain account. Firstly there is no reason to run tendrils number 2 mainboard. I hear everyone talking about how it is hard to reach lethal storm or loosing b/c of discarding tendrils in a necro or your tendrils is in your jar hand. That is not a reason at all, you simply are not being ingenuitive enough. I have not once ever had trouble reaching 10 storm and i generally finish at about 16-22. This deck loves all the accelerants and cutting something like mis-d number 3 is not right. I get so many turn 1 and 2s from having a single mis-d or force in hand to protect that bomb like bargain. And on the extract note i have a question for everyone: How many people have actually lost even a game 1 to main deck extract. It almost never happens its much more common in the board. So i do advocate tendrils number 2 in the board. Though in this deck colossus is not needed. Now all that being said i do see one other problem other than the natural bad plays made by storm combo players. That is that people are oversidboarding for matches. As an example against team gws at gencon they were bringing in duress and envelop and tendrils # 2 if i am not mistaken. By comparison i brought in 3 duress and in tendrils # 2 (though the second tendrils is not needed but i brought it in incase they brought in extract for game 2) and took out 3 mis-d and 1 necro. i beat Becker and Endress in each mirror b/c they over sided. They kept hands with protection and i kept hands with bombs. They lost b/c this deck does not really care too much about protection until the later turns. This deck does not usually let your opponent get to the later turns. So when sideboarding consider this.

Side note: Stax is a little different b/c of the nature of the deck vs yours in that match-up you can side more without hazard b/c you are not unlikely to win quick if they have a turn.

You may have been successful with this deck, but your logic seems very flawed.  You simply have not listened to or taken the time to understand why the second Tendrils is being run.  People use it because they randomly lose without it.  It's not that any one instance of all of those things happens; it's that the combination of all of the little things that can go wrong lead to people using it.  The second Tendrils can be used for a mini-Tendrils; it makes Memory Jar/Necro better; it avoids Extract; in short, it does so many things that it hurts your deck not to run it.

[Moxlotus]

  i beat Becker and Endress in each mirror b/c they over sided.

First off, they had different sideboards and I know Becker didn't side many cards in at all.  Don't make statements when you don't know everything.

For those who haven't figured it out, the mirror is stupid.  It's just stupid.  It is 90% luck.  Seriously.  It is by far the dumbest mirror I've ever seen--worse than Masque Block Rebels.  We tested the mirror before gencon.  That was the results we had anyway.  You need to keep 1 of 2 hands--infinite bombs or a bunch of cheap protection to not lose to your opponen'ts infinite bombs.  You can't pick which hands you get.  Obviously the bomby hands are better.  But protection (Duress, envelop) is better than shit like card disadvantage tutors in the mirror.

Also, if you're siding out Necro when you are on the play you're making a huge mistake.  How do you lose if you get turn 1 necro?  Keep a force and you win the game.

Firstly there is no reason to run tendrils number 2 mainboard. I hear everyone talking about how it is hard to reach lethal storm or loosing b/c of discarding tendrils in a necro or your tendrils is in your jar hand. That is not a reason at all, you simply are not being ingenuitive enough.

Worst reasoning ever.  Shit happens sometimes.  A second tendrils prevents statistics and probability from taking a dump on you when you have the game in the bag.  Desire for 8 flipping: land, land, land, rit, rit, fow, mis d, Imperial Seal.  If you've played the deck long enough shit like this will happen to you.  It will piss you off to no end knowing you played the turn perfectly only for lady luck to give you the finger.  That is one reason why people play a second Tendrils.  It isn't because they are afraid they will fuck up, its because they don't want to lose to lady luck kicking them in the sack.  There are numerous reasons to run the second tendrils.  Obviously, all of them are unlikely scenerios.  However, given the length of a tournament, and given the number of those scenarios, it can and does happen over the course of the tournament.  And when it happens in a crucial time is when you will see why people run Tendrils #2.

[Smmenen]

Sideing out Necro is ALWAYS incorrect, regardless of the matchup.  I keep that thing in against infinite discard.dec in fact, because it's sheer power is just too great to ever not have available.

JD is completely right.  I would add to that by saying I would keep it in against BURN even.  The power of turn one necro is too great. 

[betafoil]

First off, they had different sideboards and I know Becker didn't side many cards in at all.  Don't make statements when you don't know shit.

I knew that they sideboarded in

• 3 Envelop
• 3 Duress
• 0 to 1 Tendrils of Agony

I knew they left in 2 copies of Misdirection.  I know this because they showed me what they were sideboarding.  I played another guy who was playing Pitch Long, and he boarded in a similar number of cards, leaving in Misdirections.

Hence I believe they lost the mirror match partly because of luck, but partly because they sided out too many bombs/kept hands with too much protection and too few action cards.  This is why I think that my sideboarding of Misdirection for Duress (all 3), and Necropotence out for Tendrils, because Necro makes it too easy to lose the mirror match (since when you go down to 8 and pass the turn, you give them a chance to Tendrils you with only 4 or 5 storm to win).

Once again, the reason why running the second copy of Tendrils is bad:

• if you're cutting misdirection for it, you lose protection which saves you against control
• if you're cutting a bomb, you lose accelerators which helps you get the first turn win
• maindeck is rarely played, and losing to it is more unlikely, in my opinion, than losing to not having the bomb/acceleration/protection that you cut for the second copy of Tendrils
• Reaching ten storm (or higher) is almost never a problem when you are actually good at playing storm combo decks, and a second copy of tendrils doesn't really save you here.

I apologize for the quality of my earlier post, it was written in haste.

[Moxlotus]

Reaching ten storm (or higher) is almost never a problem when you are actually good at playing storm combo decks, and a second copy of tendrils doesn't really save you here.

Eric Becker and JDizzle must be god-awful at playing storm decks. 

because Necro makes it too easy to lose the mirror match

Because you don't have a FoW after drawing 10 cards and force the first relevant thing they do, then proceed to win next turn...

I boarded out Necro for a while too.  Then Becker called me an idiot and proceeded to show me that turn 1 necro wins against all matches--storm mirror included.

Have you ever gotten your Tendrils when you were Necroing?  It's a pain in the ass.  Its an even bigger pain in the ass when you have to blow your FoW on a Duress, then not have protection for your opponent's countermagic.  Necro is the biggest reason to play 2 Tendrils.  Sometimes you draw 10-12 cards and hit dick, but you hit a Tendrils and a few accelerants.  You can mini Tendrils and still have a way to win even if your opponent has Leyline or Void out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  When you lose enough times to stupid shit happening in your deck, when your deck hands enough wins over to your opponent when there was no reason you should have lost, you'll see why GWS ran 2 Tendrils.  We've been testing the deck for months and it happened too often for our tastes.  The deck shits out on itself more than I'd like.  So often in fact that both Becker and Endress had decided on not playing the deck at GenCon.  2 Tendrils helped that out.  I'd rather lose to my opponent's cards than to my own.

[TK]

I have to agree with Phil 100% on the issue of two tendrils in the deck. I can think of at least 2-3 games at waterbury where if i didn't have the second copy of tendrils i may have lost. Also what Phil said about the mini storm tendril is completely right. I love necro and feel its one of the most powerful cards in the deck, but once in a while those 10-12 cards you draw really suck and your forced to storm for 5-6 just so you can draw more cards for the next turn.

I had this hand at waterbury and i think it greatly illustrates my point. I was under a necro for reference, my hand was as follows....

tendrils, grim tutor, timewalk, ritual, mis-d, ritual, mox

I passed the turn with those as my seven cards playing against control slaver in game 2. My opponent plays a duress during his turn. he looks at my hand for a while and decides to take my grim tutor assuming i must have more than one copy of tendrils. on my turn i play out my hand tendrils for 10 draw 10 more and take my walk turn. i was still able to win the game before my opponent ever got another turn.

[bigstudlysherm]

I had this hand at waterbury and i think it greatly illustrates my point. I was under a necro for reference, my hand was as follows....

tendrils, grim tutor, timewalk, ritual, mis-d, ritual, mox

I passed the turn with those as my seven cards playing against control slaver in game 2. My opponent plays a duress during his turn. he looks at my hand for a while and decides to take my grim tutor assuming i must have more than one copy of tendrils. on my turn i play out my hand tendrils for 10 draw 10 more and take my walk turn. i was still able to win the game before my opponent ever got another turn.

It doesn't seem like your opponent could have done much here.

By making the play he did, you're opponent is signaling that they have no way to stop you grim tutor --> will with misD backup. If he takes the tendrils, that's dumb because you just resolve tutor -> will, will back your tendrils and win. His other play is to take your walk (disabling your misdirection) and hope to stop your tutor. If he goes that route...you then mini-tendrils. If he takes MisD, you win b/c you still get to bleed his counter with your tutor, cast walk, draw some more necro cards, and win on the following turn.

My point being that with that hand, he shouldn't duress tendrils regardless of how many he thinks you have in deck.

By comparison i brought in 3 duress and in tendrils # 2 (though the second tendrils is not needed but i brought it in incase they brought in extract for game 2) and took out 3 mis-d and 1 necro.

I would cut the MD artifact bounce over necro. Also, playing 60 cards is tech.

[Komatteru]

If he takes the tendrils, that's dumb because you just resolve tutor -> will, will back your tendrils and win. His other play is to take your walk (disabling your misdirection) and hope to stop your tutor. If he goes that route...you then mini-tendrils. If he takes MisD, you win b/c you still get to bleed his counter with your tutor, cast walk, draw some more necro cards, and win on the following turn.

Necro is in play, so the card that is Duressed away goes RFG, not the to graveyard.

[bigstudlysherm]

Necro is in play, so the card that is Duressed away goes RFG, not the to graveyard.

AH. There it is. Thanks.

Now that I see the interaction that makes necro-ing into the tendrils bad..heh..it's still really tough to see siding necro out. In game 2 they will generally have more duresses, but you will have second tendrils + duresses. The above situation could certainly happen game 1 though. Maybe with more people having MD duress regardless of deck the 2nd Tendrils (or Death Wish) is appropriate.

Thanks again for helping me find the argument...I knew it was there somewhere 

[Spartacus210]

As a prospective player of this deck, I just wanna ask a few questions. With some wise input from the way-too-cool-to-be-talking-to-me Mr. Type 4, I paired Becker's MD with Smennen's SB, which is what Paul said he played at Vintage Champs:

// Lands
    2  Underground Sea
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Flooded Strand
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1 [UG] Swamp
    1 [UG] Island

// Spells
    1  Windfall
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Tinker
    1  Timetwister
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Imperial Seal
    3  Grim Tutor
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Necropotence
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Force of Will
    3  Misdirection
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UG] Swamp
SB: 1 [UG] Island
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Massacre
SB: 3  Duress
SB: 1  Tropical Island
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3  Xantid Swarm
SB: 1  Bayou

This seems ok to me, any glaring problems?

I noticed people arguing about a second Tendrils MD. When I first started playing Storm combo, I played 2 copies of Tendrils in my homebrew deck and loved having it there. I've had other experienced Storm players in my area suggest 2 copies. I guess what it comes down to is personal preference, correct? I also saw that Smennen suggested cutting Windfall (cautiously). Would it be reasonable to cut Windfall from the above deck and move the Tendrils to the MD?

[Implacable]

God in Heaven, Windfall, at least in my experience, is fucking terrible.  I would cut it for just about anything, up to and including Leviathian.

I mean this in all seriousness.  Run whatever you want to run: more bounce; more counters; a Cunning Wish.  Just don't run Windfall!

[Smmenen]

I will just say that in my testing and in my experience, it was always quite solid.  I was honestly surprised by how good I thought windfall was in Pitch Long compared to how I thought it would be.  One reason is that the absence of Duress means that each Windfall that resolves with protection will be bigger than it would have been with Grim Long. 

[Sephiroth_FFVII]

Wouldn't you say that Infernal Contract is better than Windfall as suggested before? It can be played via any of the 8 rituals in the deck and it will always draw you 4 cards. The life loss does not seem to be much of a problem. Only problem I see is that you will mostly be spending a ritual in order to cast it.

[Smmenen]

No, I wouldn't.  Although testing would reveal for sure. 

[Whatever Works]

@ Sparticus

Your sideboard to me appears to have 2 cards that your run 3 of that do the exact same job. I would either run swarm... Or I would run Duress. Personally I find duress to be more usful in more matchups, but when you go turn 1 swarm turn 2 swing, win. Its just great.

Regardless your never going to board in 7 cards vs. a deck w/o killing the speed of your deck. So I would probably go with 1 or the other.

Kyle L.

[LordHomerCat]

Duress is for the mirror, Swarms are for drains Kyle.

[yangtze34]

I have a question.  Have you guys had shadow of a doubt played against you in the middle of a tutor chain?  Have you been able to counter it or what kind of results have you had when SoD has been used against you.

Editing modtext out of your posts is strictly prohibited.  Consider yourself warned.
-Klep

[Moxlotus]

I will just say that in my testing and in my experience, it was always quite solid.  I was honestly surprised by how good I thought windfall was in Pitch Long compared to how I thought it would be.  One reason is that the absence of Duress means that each Windfall that resolves with protection will be bigger than it would have been with Grim Long. 

I totally agree with Steve.  For some reason Windfall always ends up being really solid for me.  Oddly, Twist usually gives me a hand I want to mull  :lol:

Contract over Windfall is an interesting option.  While I was never a big fan of Contract, my teammates were testing it over Grim #3 for a while.

[Liam-K]

I tested (and hated) a meditate.  I would not run a contract over windfall.

[Whatever Works]

Duress is for the mirror, Swarms are for drains Kyle.

I know that, but I still disagree 100% with it. Duress is extremely good vs. drains as well imo if not even better. Also w/7 pitch counters how worried about drain do you really have to be even postboard?

About Windfall. I find the card to almost always be amazing. Its just insane vs. so many decks (I hate how every1 is saying oh its not that good in control mirror etc.) Who freaking cares... not EVERY deck is CS/Gifts as uch as some people want to believe it. In the control mirror if it resolves it great. Its great w/necro & Bargain... Its also in so many cases a draw 7, and that alone makes it a must play at its casting cost.

Kyle L

[McBain]

As a usual drain player i would have to agree that duress is very powerful vs them, however vs slaver its not as great, b/c of your amount of misd and fow. Vs gifts it would be much better because you can lure drains out and snag a gifts and ruin there game, or just grab the drain/fow and win.

[ashiXIII]

Duress is for the mirror, Swarms are for drains Kyle.

I know that, but I still disagree 100% with it. Duress is extremely good vs. drains as well imo if not even better. Also w/7 pitch counters how worried about drain do you really have to be even postboard?

About Windfall. I find the card to almost always be amazing. Its just insane vs. so many decks (I hate how every1 is saying oh its not that good in control mirror etc.) Who freaking cares... not EVERY deck is CS/Gifts as uch as some people want to believe it. In the control mirror if it resolves it great. Its great w/necro & Bargain... Its also in so many cases a draw 7, and that alone makes it a must play at its casting cost.

Kyle L

I feel about Xantid Swarm the way you feel about Windfall. The card is just way too good in certain matchups not to run. Playing a first turn Swarm against Gifts or CS is basically good game whether or not they counter it. If they Force it, and they have another counter, it probably doesn't matter because you should have bomb + counter. If they don't Force it, the game is literally over. You take your second turn and goldfish. If you can't win, you can goldfish again on your third turn. I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

[Spartacus210]

I feel about Xantid Swarm the way you feel about Windfall. The card is just way too good in certain matchups not to run. Playing a first turn Swarm against Gifts or CS is basically good game whether or not they counter it. If they Force it, and they have another counter, it probably doesn't matter because you should have bomb + counter. If they don't Force it, the game is literally over. You take your second turn and goldfish. If you can't win, you can goldfish again on your third turn. I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Completely agreed. Whenever I resolve Turn 1 Xantid I do a little dance, because the game became that much easier.

I have a few questions about Duress out of the board. I see it's for the mirror match, but how does it get boarded in? I could potentially see it coming in for Misdirection, depending on what sort of combo match it is. But Misdirection also seems too good to leave out. What are the weakest cards in the MD in the combo mirror?

[pyr0ma5ta]

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

[Dominik]

Would someone be able to just give a general SB guide for this deck for the Xantid Board against the popular archetypes like Stax, Gifts, Slaver, Combo Mirror, Fish, ICBM Oath, GWS Oath? I'm just curious to see what you put in/take out. Thanks!

PS: It would be great if you could also mention the exact 15 cards you use as a SB and why you think that configuration is best.

[LordHomerCat]

Id board out the two basic lands for Trop and Bayou, then depending on the deck, something like windfall (which i personally dont like), mystical Tutor, maybe a cabal ritual, maybe the second bounce spell if you run it (leaving in chain of vapor unless you know their board plan, since it could be lab+REB or sphere or duress and each should be sided differently), maybe one misdirection.  Mystical comes out a lot for me, and I hate drawing it after the first turn (since it can get ancestral then) because its so bad unless you have like  necro and just need a force =/