Pitch Long

[slyfer]

Ok i got it. 

And what about 1x rebuild? Doesn't help storming + stax MU + eot bouncing rod/chalice?
Btw I'm playing and seeing that chalice@1 can be played around, using cabal ritual and proper cards
I just play a version with 2 ToA cos sometimes i can go off but i produce only 8/9 spells and experience showed me opponent can sometimes recover from that.
I think it's harder to play with only 1 ToA

[AJFirst]

No offense, but that's just playskill. Experiance with the deck and true talent with combo allow the top Long players find that extra storm count, or know when they just don't have it. The reasoning for playing 2 tendrils is if you are afraid of losing one (extract, duress with potence on board), and for playing around graveyard hate (using Bargain, mini-tendrils and draw more cards. There are also the players that run Demonic Consultion, in which case it's obvious that you need either Burning Wish or a second Tendrils
-AJ

[slyfer]

You have no reason to be afraid of your opponents threats, you only need to be afraid of their answers.  Their answers consist of FoW and that's about it--maybe Stifle.  MisD stops both.

MisD doesn't stop stifle by the way...you should target another activated or triggered ability... should fetch in response and misdD to your polluted for example...impossible play

[Moxlotus]

You have no reason to be afraid of your opponents threats, you only need to be afraid of their answers.  Their answers consist of FoW and that's about it--maybe Stifle.  MisD stops both.

MisD doesn't stop stifle by the way...you should target another activated or triggered ability... should fetch in response and misdD to your polluted for example...impossible play

Its not an impossible play--its one you can set up for quite frequently if your opponent is signaling Stifle.

[nietzsche]

Force off a misderection stops stifle as well.  I really just don't see the one instant being a problem with the amount of answers that can be run here, and the tutors to find them.

[Implacable]

What is everyone using as a sideboard right now?  My current list is as follows (I have infinite Drains in my meta):

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Bayou
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Massacre
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Rebuild
1 Random Card

I've found the sided-in Xantid plan to be very effective.  It's only good against Drains, but if there's a lot in the meta, you basically add 3 more must counter cards that can all be played on Turn 1.

[wraith985]

I'm not convinced that you need to have over half your sideboard taken up by Xantid Swarm sideboarding pieces, given that this deck is already very strong against Drains. You're making a good matchup better instead of making a bad matchup passable. Personally, I'm most worried about running into Stax (as I feel that is the weakest matchup), so my board is heavily tilted toward hating Stax.

[Purple Hat]

you're also gonna want good board cards against dragon.  Dragon is a rough matchup for pitch long as it's nearly as fast, it's combo isn't misdirectable, and it maindecks 4 force, 3 duress.

[Smmenen]

Here is my pitch Long list and sb:

Pitch Long

By Stephen Menendian

4 Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Usea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Academy

Accel 19
8 Sol-lo-moxen-crypt
1 LED
1 Petal
1 Vault
4 Dark Rit
3 Cabal Rit

Protection 8
4 FoW
3 MisD
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Business 22
4 BS
3 Grim
1 VT
1 MT
1 DT
1 Iseal
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Windfall
1 Twister
1 Desire
1 Bargain
1 Necro
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Time Walk
 
SB
1 Trop
1 Bayou
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Massacre
3 Duress
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils

Explanations:
First and foremost, notice that I cut the 4th Cabal Ritual from the maindeck to add another bounce spell.  I felt that there would be a large stax presence.  Although Chain of Vapor is by far the most powerful bounce spell, Hurkyl’s Recall is often a necessity in game one versus stax.  In addition, it is still quite useful both as a mana and storm generator.

Second, I firmly believe that Mire is now better than Strand.   

Third, I think the ESG plan from the board is completely unnecessary with basics.  My plan is simply to side out at least one moxen and a Usea for the two basics in the stax match. 

So, your stax match looks like this:
-   Mox Pearl
-   1 Usea
+   2 more basics
-   3 Misdirections
+   1 Chain of Vapor
+   1 Hurkyls
+   1 Rebuild

The Xantid plan is self-explanatory and has been explained earlier in this thread. 

The Duress plan is for the combo mirror.  It goes like this:
-   2 bounce spells
-   3rd Cabal Ritual
+   3 Duress

[ashiXIII]

Here is my pitch Long list and sb:

Pitch Long

By Stephen Menendian

4 Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Usea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Academy

Accel 19
8 Sol-lo-moxen-crypt
1 LED
1 Petal
1 Vault
4 Dark Rit
3 Cabal Rit

Protection 8
4 FoW
3 MisD
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Business 22
4 BS
3 Grim
1 VT
1 MT
1 DT
1 Iseal
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Windfall
1 Twister
1 Desire
1 Bargain
1 Necro
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Time Walk
 
SB
1 Trop
1 Bayou
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Massacre
3 Duress
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils

Explanations:
First and foremost, notice that I cut the 4th Cabal Ritual from the maindeck to add another bounce spell.  I felt that there would be a large stax presence.  Although Chain of Vapor is by far the most powerful bounce spell, Hurkyl’s Recall is often a necessity in game one versus stax.  In addition, it is still quite useful both as a mana and storm generator.

Second, I firmly believe that Mire is now better than Strand.   

Third, I think the ESG plan from the board is completely unnecessary with basics.  My plan is simply to side out at least one moxen and a Usea for the two basics in the stax match. 

So, your stax match looks like this:
-   Mox Pearl
-   1 Usea
+   2 more basics
-   3 Misdirections
+   1 Chain of Vapor
+   1 Hurkyls
+   1 Rebuild

The Xantid plan is self-explanatory and has been explained earlier in this thread. 

The Duress plan is for the combo mirror.  It goes like this:
-   2 bounce spells
-   3rd Cabal Ritual
+   3 Duress

I really, really like this sideboard. I've been working on mine, and it's fairly close to what this is. The main difference is -Island, -Trop and +2 Pithing Needle. I love this card, as playing around T-Crypt is very, very annoying, but I do find it dilutes my maindeck a little more than I'd like it to. I also found that this deck really wants the Hurkyl's in the main, alongside the CoV.

EDIT: Can anyone give me opinions on LED in this deck? I'm having trouble cutting it from a Long-style deck, but at the same time, I can see where it would be a problem against Drain decks, or even any decks with counters. The few times this has come up in testing, I've been able to play around it by tutoring for Tinker -> Jar, protecting the Tinker and cracking the LED in response to the Jar, so it doesn't seem like too much of a liability, but I'd still like to get everyone else's opinion.

[Whatever Works]

Steve, How do you like running just 1 kill condition. I understand the arguement that it is more efficient etc. But in my experiences it leaves absolutely no room for play error at all, and that there are odd circumstances where having 2 would be great. I know this argument happened every day with the old TPS lists, but that argument focused primarily around the concept that the deck fizzled alot (which this deck does not).

Is time walk really neccessary in a deck like this? Its tempo, but w/o DSC it seems out of place. Perhaps that slot could be better served as a 2nd kill condition?

About LED I have found it to be either horrible or amazing... no inbetween. It prevents the deck from taking advantage of its counters, but when you are using it under a sworm, or against a deck that runs no counters its just like a 2nd lotus, and can help win the game on the spot in responce to a grim tutor, twister, w/e.

[Mr. Type 4]

I would not cut LED.  It doesn't have synergy with the priamry plan of the deck, to set up a bomb and win.  However, I've found that it is extremly strong at making more out of draw 7's and Yawgmoth's Will, and I like the warm feeling I get from knowing that it's in my deck. 

That said, I talked to I@N and he said that he and TK had cut the LED from their build to run another land.  So if you don't feel like you need LED, so it doesn't seem like cutting it going to hold you back too much.  LED is a card that favors those that like to play agressively and if it doesn't fit your style it's probably a waste.

[Moxlotus]

GWS cut LED a while ago for another land.  I got tired of that card sucking and felt I would like another land against Chalices and Wastes.  Everybody followed suit.

I ran 2 Tendrils and will always continue to run 2 Tendrils.  Most of my teammates agree and the others waver back and forth.  It just makes things easier.  People will say "but you really don't need it, you could have other options, blah blah."  I'm sorry, an easy kill>complicated kill.  People use the terms "simple" and "easy" as if they were bad things.  Deadguy red was a deck any idiot could play, yet greats like Pikula and Price continued to win with it because it was a good deck.  Good and simple are not mutually exclusive.  This is in addition to the obvious things that just piss you off like having it in your hand with necro, then getting Duressed.  Getting randomly extracted is retarded.  Having it in your Jar hand is also stupid.  Yes, you can set up a kill with yawg will on top of your library, but once again--what would you replace it with?  The deck isn't CS where 1 card can give the deck a decent amount of flexibility.  The other card you would add would be something like another bounce, land, or MisD.  I'd rather have the second tendrils.

Time Walk is insane in the deck.  I don't know why and can't really explain it, but the card has just worked for me and the rest of my team.

[ashiXIII]

GWS cut LED a while ago for another land.  I got tired of that card sucking and felt I would like another land against Chalices and Wastes.  Everybody followed suit.

I ran 2 Tendrils and will always continue to run 2 Tendrils.  Most of my teammates agree and the others waver back and forth.  It just makes things easier.  People will say "but you really don't need it, you could have other options, blah blah."  I'm sorry, an easy kill>complicated kill.  People use the terms "simple" and "easy" as if they were bad things.  Deadguy red was a deck any idiot could play, yet greats like Pikula and Price continued to win with it because it was a good deck.  Good and simple are not mutually exclusive.  This is in addition to the obvious things that just piss you off like having it in your hand with necro, then getting Duressed.  Getting randomly extracted is stupid.  Having it in your Jar hand is also stupid.  Yes, you can set up a kill with yawg will on top of your library, but once again--what would you replace it with?  The deck isn't CS where 1 card can give the deck a decent amount of flexibility.  The other card you would add would be something like another bounce, land, or MisD.  I'd rather have the second tendrils.

Time Walk is insane in the deck.  I don't know why and can't really explain it, but the card has just worked for me and the rest of my team.

I personally dislike 2 Tendrils in the main. I feel like I'm wasting a slot. If you prefer it, then I have no gripes with that. I understand why. I've had the problem of getting it Extracted, but never the Duress problem. I've also had to remove it in a Jar hand quite often, but this has never actually stopped me from winning. Either my opponent would scoop without seeing it, or I would set up an insane yard, get Will on top of my deck, and Walk, or something similiar silly. There was one post board game where I RFGed Twister and Tendrils, went broken with Jar, Tinkered for DSC (I had hardcast Jar), Time Walked, attacked, Twistered, and drew Time Walk again for the win on the spot. (Trust me, Twistering was right. My opponent had no blue up at the time, obviously no FoW, and upwards of 5 or 6 cards in hand.)

[ashiXIII]

I would not cut LED.  It doesn't have synergy with the priamry plan of the deck, to set up a bomb and win.  However, I've found that it is extremly strong at making more out of draw 7's and Yawgmoth's Will, and I like the warm feeling I get from knowing that it's in my deck. 

That said, I talked to I@N and he said that he and TK had cut the LED from their build to run another land.  So if you don't feel like you need LED, so it doesn't seem like cutting it going to hold you back too much.  LED is a card that favors those that like to play agressively and if it doesn't fit your style it's probably a waste.

How aggressive I am really depends on the game state, what I'm playing against, and to a slightly lesser extent, who I'm playing against. So, is it me or is the consensus on LED seem to be "It can be really good, but because of the nature of your deck, you have to have the balls to play it."?

[Moxlotus]

So, is it me or is the consensus on LED seem to be "It can be really good, but because of the nature of your deck, you have to have the balls to play it."?

LED+FoW/MisD=COMBO!!!  Or it's the absolute worst shit ever.  If you're casting a draw7 you need to resolve, are you going to break LED or use the pitchspells to protect it? 

Obv, with Duress it is insane.

[ashiXIII]

So, is it me or is the consensus on LED seem to be "It can be really good, but because of the nature of your deck, you have to have the balls to play it."?

LED+FoW/MisD=COMBO!!!  Or it's the absolute worst shit ever.  If you're casting a draw7 you need to resolve, are you going to break LED or use the pitchspells to protect it? 

Obv, with Duress it is insane.

Obviously. Thank you for pointing out what everyone already knew. Regardless, with Will the card is still nuts even if you can only crack it once. Also, if you're tutoring for your threat, (instead of already having it in hand) you can just get Tinker, protect it, and break the LED in response to the Jar. If you read them with a counter, you can play your threat, pass priority, let them Force (or Drain), then you can Force back, let all this resolve, and STILL break in response to your threat. I understand that this card isn't as good with Forces/Mis-Ds as it is with Duresses, but just because of some slight dissynergy that any halfway skilled player can find a way to play around isn't worth cutting what is essentially a second Black Lotus.

[kombat]

Time Walk is insane in the deck.  I don't know why and can't really explain it, but the card has just worked for me and the rest of my team.

I cut Time Walk a while ago from my combo decks.  In these decks, Time Walk might as well read:

  Time Walk
  1U
  Sorcery

  Untap all your lands and artifacts.  Reset your storm count.

Untapping mana is nice, but it comes at a heavy cost.  Resetting the storm count is a very big obstacle when you're trying to go off, and I think it complicates the win more often than it assists it.  I'd rather the slot were more draw, mana, tutor, or another win condition.  Basically, anything else seems better in my opinion.

[Whatever Works]

I like the explanation for Time Walk, but i still find it to be more of a tempo card against most players who will drain it if you have no mana untapped, and will let it resolve to counter your next threat. On the other hand if you have 2 threats in your hand following time walk then its great, but generally if you have 2 threats you could cast them on the same turn with the mana that went to time walk.

I am still curious about running only 1 kill condition maindeck??? Maybe I am the only player who sees alot of decks boarding in 4 extract & running maindeck hide/seek?

Kyle L

[Mr. Nightmare]

Kyle, you may be, but I'm also an advocate of the second win.  It's more difficult in Pitch Long than it is in Grim Long, since with the 5c base you run Burning Wish, which provides additional utility and access to your board game 1.  The 2-2.5 color base of Pitch Long forces to run 2x Tendrils, which doesn't really provide much more than 1x, aside from insurance.  The other option is to run Colossus MD, but I think that option forces you into a crutch position too often, where you Tinker for the Darksteel win when you should be comboing, or find you have a completely useless card in the deck.

[Phele]

I do run a single Cunning Wish wich has served me pretty well so far. Additionaly to the obvious CoV, Hurkyl and Brain Freeze I run one Daze, one Coffin Purge and one Skeletal Scrying in the Board. I prefer another win condition for 3UU with the nice side effect of acting as another counter, bounce and draw over the second Trendrils. I didn't have to bastardize my sideboard as all the mentiones spells play certain roles in different machtups. Together with Colossus you can even board to four win conditions against Staxx which gives you some out of a single Cap activation, which sometimes happens on the second turn. But when they spent so much effort and ressources to cast and activate Cap you usually have an easy game finishing them afterwards.

[FireAndIce]

i too used to run a cunning wish when i used to play TPS.  yet TPS was a totally different animal.  adding a cunning wish to this particular deck seems utterly counter-intuitive.  yes, it seems nice having a back up plan but seriously, i know that high of a storm is not that hard to achieve with this deck but it seems like a ridiculously bad way to win.  the only thing that the cunning wish actually ends up adding is a bit more clunkiness to the deck.  besides most of the time i find myself having mainly black mana left floating because of the fact that this deck plays 7-8 rituals.  imagine having to DT for wish or even wasting a vamp. u would never do such a thing.  you would get the necessary bounce or the bomb that you needed.  what exactly did you cut for the wish? the aforementioned LED?  while LED obviously has terrible synergy with the counters in the deck it gives an explosive power to some draws that is most certainly necessary.  the only time I could ever see myself truly wishing I had wish (pun intended) over LED would be with a totally empty hand on both sides to get a scrying or never. 

the second win condition is definitely something that is totally superfluous.  this deck plays enough bounce that it is totally unnecessary.  any very bad cards can be stopped with FoW or dealt with and/or played around.  by adding a third basic land it would make it easier to get around a 3-sphere.  this is not like the original version of grim long which ran one tendrils and not even a chain of vapor or a wish.  then the bounce or extra win condition.  (i randomly lost to meddling mage in waterbury 3 times in game ones) 

on the issue of time walk it is important to note that time walk plays a very important role in that it allows a combo deck to setup without actually giving an extra turn to an opponent.  also dont forget the fact that time walk + necro is an ungodly combo

[M.Solymossy]

MisD doesn't stop stifle by the way...you should target another activated or triggered ability... should fetch in response and misdD to your polluted for example...impossible play

I definitely Misdirected Stifle to fetchland AND a necro @ gencon last weekend.

[Phele]

what exactly did you cut for the wish? the aforementioned LED?  while LED obviously has terrible synergy with the counters in the deck it gives an explosive power to some draws that is most certainly necessary. 

Exactly, I cut LED for it and never wished I didn't since. The synergy with the pitch counters is horrible and you just don't need the extra explosiveness as the deck is explosive enough. I found LED totally unncessary.

the only thing that the cunning wish actually ends up adding is a bit more clunkiness to the deck.

I also never found Wish clunky, when I didn't use it I pitched it away. And when you know that you have to use Wish as the win condition - when Tendrils is removed or in your Tinker hand - you leave blue mana flooting in your pool, that's not that difficult.

But I dont use Wish exclusively as a win condition, last tournament I wished for Hurkyl winning against staxx right after and I wished for Daze to get my Twister through against Gifts. I you compare wish with an extra bounce, counter, draw, or win condition main as a singleton, yes it's clunky. But not when you compare it with all of them together.

I see Wish as a fourth grim tutor with worth targets but being a blue instant that also solves the my wish to have an exta wincondition maindeck without being totally dead in most of the cases.

[Moxlotus]

I also never found Wish clunky, when I didn't use it I pitched it away. And when you know that you have to use Wish as the win condition - when Tendrils is removed

How do you wish for the win?  Brain Freeze?  That's really bad, since Freeze blows against one of the decks running Extracts--Oath.

[AJFirst]

Yeah I don't really get that whole wish thing. Seems like playing wish is just not having confidence in your ability to play around hate. Not to mention this deck scoops to the least amount of hands in the metagame as they usually need serious hate peice+counter back-up then be able to follow it up with another peice. The fact that the deck both has Cabal Rits and all that to play around Chalice and Trinisphere, bounce, Desire+Bargain for Leyline/tormod's, and Force of Will for anything else they don't like makes it seem pretty resiliant to me.

Nice Yawgmoth's Bargain Soly...
-AJ

[ashiXIII]

To be completely honestly, even in Pitch Long, with a 2-color manabase, I'd probably rather run Burning Wish than Cunning Wish. If you lose your Tendrils, you can get it back when you go off. By that time, you have almost definitely seen at least one of either Ruby, Petal, Lotus, or LED. I know that I tutor for Lotus about 75% of games. So, this card would serve no function other than protecting Tendrils, but I still think it's better than C-Wish.

[diopter]

So, this card would serve no function other than protecting Tendrils, but I still think it's better than C-Wish.

At which point, you should instead run the second Tendrils. Which I think is the correct decision, because it makes the deck less prone to losing to itself.

[ErkBek]

So, this card would serve no function other than protecting Tendrils, but I still think it's better than C-Wish.

At which point, you should instead run the second Tendrils. Which I think is the correct decision, because it makes the deck less prone to losing to itself.

or you could run 1 death wish. Your SB could have
1 Tendrils
1 LED
1 Windfall
all as wish targets. Seems good to me.

[ashiXIII]

So, this card would serve no function other than protecting Tendrils, but I still think it's better than C-Wish.

At which point, you should instead run the second Tendrils. Which I think is the correct decision, because it makes the deck less prone to losing to itself.

or you could run 1 death wish. Your SB could have
1 Tendrils
1 LED
1 Windfall
all as wish targets. Seems good to me.

Actually, the Death Wish does seem like the best option. It gives you access to ALL of your sideboard cards GAME 1. The only problem I see with the mini-list you provided is that I want both Windfall and LED in my main, personally.

But on to my post about B-Wish. I never said I would run the card. It's bad in this deck. I was just using it to compare to C-Wish to show how bad I think that card is in this deck.