Pitch Long

[ErkBek]

On a more constructive note, how is LED with 7 pitch spells? I was never a fan of the card in previous Tendril builds that used Force of Will, and using Force of Will AND Misdirection seems like it could cause problems. I know LED is just so randomly awesome, but has it ever given you problems?

Was there a reason you rejected the 4 Dark Confidant and 3 Tendrils plan in the SB?

LED can be amazing at times and marginal at others. A couple times when playing tutors or draw7's and you have backup counter LED just sits in play. However if they counter your bomb, then you can play your counter and bust the LED. LED was played in Draw7.dec and it faced the same tradeoff. I don't see it going anywhere.

@ the Bob + Tendrils SB: The maindeck beats Mana Drain Control easily, I only Sideboard in 1 Tendrils for that matchup if I do any sideboarding at all. I didn't run the Bob SB plan since I think it is much better for beating stax when playing IT than with Grim Long. IT effectively used Bob on its SB since it didn't need a draw7 to win the game, since a draw7 resets the Card Advantage gained by Bob.

[Phele]

Do you think that you're the only one to ever build a UB long deck? I could even say this deck is within 11 cards of IT.

But isn't this true for almost every top tier deck: Do you think, Meandeck, GWS or whoever were the only ones building an Oath or a Gifts deck. All their lists are just a few cards away from builds people around here were toying with. Nevertheless everybody is just talking about GWS/ICMB Oath and Meandeck Gifts. Shouldn't we just call IT TPS as it is just within a few cards?

Regardless of who "invented" the deck, KobeFan came up with the novelty of Misdirection and took it to a Top8. Columbus didn't discover America first, he just got the credit.

And Heiner came up with the novelty of four Cabal Rituals, UB mana base and took it to a Top8. And he got a lot of credit for that over here.

But why don't we just stop all this invention name giving thing and go on to further develop a gordious deck which Heiner AND Kobefan already have done some great work on.

On topic: Beside the fourth Grim Tutor I see other optional card choices. A second bounce worked pretty smooth for me in Litz Long so it will proboblay do in this build as well. You could exchange one Misdirection with it.

Another option I was trying out - and please, don't kill me in a second - is a single Cunning Wish. Already playing Bounce and Brain Freeze in the board you could easily exchange one Hurkyl/Rebuild with a Rushing River a Massacre with Darkblast and a Tormod's Crypt with Coffin Purge and just adding one Fact or Fiction/Gifts Ungiven.

I know that Cunning Wish is clunky and slow, but it can play many different roles in this deck, serving as the second bounce - Chalice on one IS a problem with just CoV maindeck - and a kill option helping out against the Jar/Tendrils in Hand problem and against Extract/Cranial Extraction. Also with so many blue pitch spells its not so random that you can get a Brainstorm with it eot or that it just functions as a counter spell with a FoW or a Misdirection already removed.

[BreathWeapon]

I have to agree that a second bounce spell is much appreciated, Hurkyl's MD has won me so many games. But, being a Time Walk "hater" I'd rather cut that than a Misdirection (which is like the entire point of playing this variation).

[ErkBek]

I'm not really sure if another maindeck bounce spell is the proper direction for the deck. However, this could have to do with how I play the deck. I've found that at least 1/3 of the games I manage to get necro in play and necro for a bunch and then win from there. Necro is my number 3 tutor target, right behind Will and Lotus. The reason I like this route so much is you can build hands that win through almost anything your opponent can throw at you, whether its a Chalice for 1 + a Wasteland or a 3Sphere, you usually can win right through whatever they produce on their turn. Meanwhile, your not letting your opponent draw 7 cards to keep pace with you. Lastly, necro is easy to cast around chalice with Cabal Rituals mixing up the mana curve.

Don't be a Time Walk hater BreathWeapon. You've got to learn to abuse it beyond being a cantrip. For example, Time Walk before or after a draw 7 is almost always game over for your opponent. I occasionally will break a Jar while holding my only tendrils just to set up plays involving Time Walk, suddenly I'm frantically searching for walk instead of will. I then either play a mirage tutor to set Yawg will as my next draw or I try to drop necro or bargain.

Walk really adds a lot beyond being a "free" cantrip.

[nataz]

However, Meandeck was the first to use the "hasted flyers plan" (Akroma and Spirit)

TeeHee,
course, speaking of leaning your history...

Meandeck was just the first to win anything substantial with 2x hasted fliers, they actually stole the idea from some random out in Ohio or something.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Actually, I believe that it was inspired by a deck that placed well at a tourney at The Soldiery. These tournaments have provided lots of new tech in the past and will probably continue to do so, as there is always a very high concentration of good players at them.

[Komatteru]

Actually, I believe that it was inspired by a deck that placed well at a tourney at The Soldiery. These tournaments have provided lots of new tech in the past and will probably continue to do so, as there is always a very high concentration of good players at them.

The Soldiery is a like a Meandeck breeding ground.  About 80% of the people who go to those things are either Meandeck members or affiliated with the team in some way.

[Jacob Orlove]

Enough about Oath and deck names. If people are curious, make a new topic and we can go into as much detail as you want.

Now, let's get back to the deck this thread is about: if Force+Misdirection is so good for protecting spells, has anyone tried Unmask for a free Duress?

[M.Solymossy]

MisDirection is good because (until now) The card was completely unexpected, and it's also blue (meaning it pitches to fow).

Unmask is terrible.    It costs you to ditch a black card, which with 0 duress, means you're ALWAYS cutting a business spell.

[ErkBek]

Unmask is terrible.    It costs you to ditch a black card, which with 0 duress, means you're ALWAYS cutting a business spell.

I'd be careful with that statement. It could be good with Infernal Tutor, but that card sucks right?

[That0neguy]

As far as unmask goes ive tried it in a few combo decks and have never really liked it.  The only cards that I ever pitched to it were either other unmasks or the ocassional necro/bargain and duresses when I wasn't going to use them to go off.

I have a feeling it would be even worse in a deck running FOW instead of the duress because there is even fewer cards you want to pitch to the unmask.

[nicofromtokyo]

Before choosing between Duress or Misdi MD, you should ask yourself:

-What are the good and bad matchups of Duress and Misdirection?

-What are the matchups you're about to fight on your metagame, so you can choose between the 2 cards properly.

I don't think one is strictly better than the other one, it's just a matter of what kind of deck you're gonna fight.

[The Atog Lord]

Okay, I'll reveal my ignorance and ask. Why are there Bazaars in the sideboard?

[Webster]

Okay, I'll reveal my ignorance and ask. Why are there Bazaars in the sideboard?

See the original post:

2 Bazaar

This was my tech for the tournament.  Bazaar is nuts vs. stax since you often times can’t play brainstorms so you need another way to filter.  I only ran 2 since I was still a little uncertain of them.  They were great; I’m going to up them to 3.

Let there be light.


Web

[Mr. Type 4]

I think you're all missing the real problem with Mis-D vs. Unmask.  Mis-D and Unmask both serve a similar primary function: to protect your combo from counter magic, and other reactive threats.  Unmask is proactive, it costs you 2 cards and then you go through their hand and rip a card, Misdirection forces them to actually play something, then you react to it.  In this way you make them either tap manas or pitch a card, which means that your two cards not only nullified one of your opponent's threats, but made them expend their resources.  Consider this situation: You unmask into a hand that has 2 Mana Drains andd they have UU open, that Unmask sucks compared to Mis-D right there. 

The only real advantage to Unmask is actually getting to see their hand.  This, I think, is balanced by the randomly amazing play of Mis-D your Ancestral. 

[ErkBek]

I was kind of bored so I figured I'd go back and answer a couple of questions.

So Eric, do you consider this sort of an upgrade to IT?  Whats your feeling on your IT with drains, vs. this or regular GrimLong?  Are there times you would consider switching back to those or do you think this is just a better deck?  I like the forces main, I found I board them in against almost everyone, and duress comes out against anyone with counters it seems.  Did you test with the 5color manabase and the Force/MisD plan, or only with the fetch base?

This and IT are totally different decks that were produced for different metagames. I still feel that IT is an excellent deck however I found that I just can't beat Gifts no matter what I tried. This deck beats gifts pretty consistantly. I definitely will consider playing IT again however.

Unfortunately, I did not get to test the 5C manabase. If I were to run it then I would lose synergy with cabal rituals as well as lose the ability to play lands after a yawg will. Plus I lose a manabase with basics, all at the expense of 1 card, wheel.

With all the pitch Magic, I find cutting Windfall to be not such a great idea.  For once, Windfall might actually be good.  However, Time Spiral is a possible replacement, as it only takes 3 lands for it to be as good as Timetwister, and better than Windfall.

Windfall is great in the deck for sure, I'd have to cut something else to make room for additional grim tutor. I did test time spiral and didn't really care for it. Coming up with 4UU to play a time spiral is a little more difficult than doing so to play a Desire since you want counter backup for a spiral.

From my experience, 4 Bounce + 4 ESG makes the Stax match into a walk in the park.  I found it very hard to lose that match post board, really.  It took like early Crucible + Strip to get that done.

Jester's cap is seeing more and more play on stax sideboards so you can't just wait around all day anymore. The bazaars really help break locks in a timely matter.

[Smmenen]

I've been futzing around with various long configurations in the last two weeks and I think the greatest loss of going to a fetchland mana base is xantid swarm.  You just can't make a 2.5 color deck work very well.  The Xantid Swarms become very awkward. 

It isn't wheel that is lost, imo, it's Xantid Swarm. That's the biggest loss of going straight UB.  However, pitch long doesn't seem to care very much, but I do.

[BreathWeapon]

The deck doesn't board against Control and doesn't have to, Force of Will and Misdirection are more or less your anti-control cards. I'm kind of surprised that you miss Xantid Swarm more than you miss Duress, since everybody seems to think that Duress is actually disruption in Grim Long instead of a one B invitation to get your land destroyed.

Just curious, what are people actually using Chain of Vapor on that Hurky's Recall doesn't answer? Leyline of the Void isn't a problem, because Necropotence is just as good as Yawgmoth's Will and Chalice of the Void is usually set at one against Combo which can be problematic if Chain is your only bounce spell. That leaves Meddling Mage out of Fish, Erayo out of SS and rare SB cards like Pyrostatic Pillar, Chains of Mephistophelese, In The Eye of Chaos and Arcane Lab. Is the card really better than Hurkyl's ability to simply PWN Stax?

[Mr. Type 4]

Just curious, what are people actually using Chain of Vapor on that Hurky's Recall doesn't answer?

That blasted True Believer is hard to get rid of with Hurkyl's, unless you play Microsith Lattice, lol. 

The debate has many facets to it- Chain of Vapor is often bad because it costs 1 to cast, which is a popular number for Chalice to be set at.  However, Chain is significantly more versitile and it DOES get rid of a key Stax card, even if it doesn't hit all of them.  You can usally win by taking one one card's worth of pressure off you. 

The best thing about Chain, IMO, is that unlike Hurkyl's, Chain allows you to bounce your own moxes (making essentially free to cast, and generates a bunch of storm) and THEN you can sac a land to get rid of whatever your opponent has that's holding you back.  Hurkyl's doesn't give you the option to return cards from both sides of the board. 

Ultimately, the decision to run Chain vs. Hurkyl's is a toss up.  You can play an entire tournament and never run ito Stax, in which case you want Chain for sure... but if you have to play Stax even once you're going to wish that thing was Hurkyl's.

I've been futzing around with various long configurations in the last two weeks and I think the greatest loss of going to a fetchland mana base is xantid swarm.  You just can't make a 2.5 color deck work very well.  The Xantid Swarms become very awkward.

I have to agree with this.  Xantid Swarm is amazing against so many decks.

[rureddy31]

At the moment, I am running both Chain and Recall. I essentially removed a Spirit Guide for the second bounce spell, and removed the last guide for a cabal ritual. It makes Xantid swarm a little harder to cast, but I think it is a necessary sacrifice. There isn't too much Stax in my meta (down here in Canada), so the ESGs aren't missed all that much. They might find a way into the board though.

Stupid question, what do you take out vs. Stax, assuming you're siding in about 12 cards.

Duresses and swarm for sure. Regrowth seems right. But after those 6, I'm a little stuck. Are draw 7s good against stax? I would imagine they are...

[Smmenen]

Eric, what are the brain freezes for?

[BreathWeapon]

Eric, what are the brain freezes for?

You Brain Freeze in response to 9 storm or the tutor to find Tendrils against Grim Long, make them discard 30 cards and hope to discard the Tendrils. They also hard counter Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Tutor and Mystical Tutor and give you an additional kill condition against Jester's Cap and Extract. SBing in 4 of them against Grim Long is really, really rough for them because Duress has to take Brain Freeze instead of business and you have 4 more ways to the finish line than they do.

@ Chain of Vapor, I guess Meddling Mage, True Believer and the ability to target yourself and your opponent is a good enough reason to include them in the deck, but is it a good enough reason to include them in the main deck? If all you play is one Chain of Vapor as your bounce, you are more or less conceeding that you can't rely on it because Meddling Mage and True Believer tend to go along with Chalice of the Void. Considering this deck is looking for a card to cut to add in business, the 4th Grim Tutor is a must, that really only leaves Time Walk and Chain of Vapor to remove as the "meh" cards of the deck.

Edit: Wait a minute, why wouldn't you just SB in Darksteel Colossus and trump True Believer, Meddling Mage and Stifle all at the same time and save your Force of Wills and Misdirections for Swords to Plowshares, if they didn't board them out? You even give yourself an out against Extract if they SB it, strategy superiority seems way better than any Chain of Vapor.

[ErkBek]

I don't think Xantid needed vs. control when you've got all the pitch counters.

I made the switch to Chain of Vapor in all long variations when Steve did. I'm in love with chain of vapor, its really the one of the coolest cards ever. But really, having a hurkyl's to bounce chalice @1 seems like its pointless, because tutoring up it up when they've dropped a chalice can be problematic enough that they'll win because they got you off your game long enough. Other than bouncing cards like meddling mage, it also bounces 2sphere for less mana, which is really nice.

Brainfreeze was there for the Long mirror. I wanted something to deal with my opponent just going broken, while I sit and watch. They prob brought Fow in, so they could even have protection for much of their comboing. Brainfreeze seemed like the best card to give me a shot at winnning the game, when I really shouldn't even be in it. Its blue, and I'd want to draw it off an opponent's draw7. Unfortunately, I never got to play it all weekend and now that the cat is out of the bag, it won't be as good anymore.

[BreathWeapon]

That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, not only can you not tutor for Chain of Vapor when a Chalice at one is on the board but you can't cast it either, so how does it matter that you can't tutor for Hurkyl's Recall? At the very least you can still cast Hurkyl's Recall, and the other point that you missed is that you are more likely to have Hurkyl's Recall since you are going to use them in multiples in the SB against Stax. That's assuming ofcourse you can't just Demonic Tutor or Grim Tutor for Hurkyl's Recall for some reason, tho' I have no clue what that reason would actually be, and I don't think saying that being able to tutor for Hurkyl's Recall is worthless because under that logic bounce cards shouldn't be included for anything other than generating storm and mana, which Hurkyl's Recall is much better at.

If all the card is really doing is bouncing Meddling Mage and True Believer, and if they are playing Chalice that isn't even a guaranteed application, I'd rather use Massacre SB. I just don't see anything else in this format that is worth bouncing, because if you can bounce Erayao you can win any way and Tendrils>Dragon, so that really only leaves random Stax Enchantments that you have Force of Will for?

Also, I think it is kind of dubious to expect them to SB in Force of Will against you in the Combo mirror, if they are on the play Duress is so much better than Force of Will, so other than the surprise factor of the card being gone it really hasn't gotten worse and you need something to SB out Misdirection for in the mirror any way.

[Moxlotus]

At the moment, I am running both Chain and Recall. I essentially removed a Spirit Guide for the second bounce spell, and removed the last guide for a cabal ritual. It makes Xantid swarm a little harder to cast, but I think it is a necessary sacrifice. There isn't too much Stax in my meta (down here in Canada), so the ESGs aren't missed all that much. They might find a way into the board though.

Stupid question, what do you take out vs. Stax, assuming you're siding in about 12 cards.

Duresses and swarm for sure. Regrowth seems right. But after those 6, I'm a little stuck. Are draw 7s good against stax? I would imagine they are...

Check out the decklist before you post.

Xantid Swarm.  I love the card.  I played it in 2.5c long.  My board contained bayou, trop, 4 xantid.  It was amazing.  But for this deck, its not needed since you already have 7 cards to stop them and you honestly don't really want to sideboard a single card out.

Do not play a 4th grim tutor.  Seriously, do not do it.  It is terrible.  You do not want to see more than 1 during the course of the game and a second in your opening hand is worthless.

Brainfreeze is a funny card that you hope to randomly surprise your opponent with FTW when there was no reason for you to even have a chance.  And it was blue.  And it was better than MisD.  And we couldn't think of anything better at the time.

[Smmenen]

At the moment, I am running both Chain and Recall. I essentially removed a Spirit Guide for the second bounce spell, and removed the last guide for a cabal ritual. It makes Xantid swarm a little harder to cast, but I think it is a necessary sacrifice. There isn't too much Stax in my meta (down here in Canada), so the ESGs aren't missed all that much. They might find a way into the board though.

Stupid question, what do you take out vs. Stax, assuming you're siding in about 12 cards.

Duresses and swarm for sure. Regrowth seems right. But after those 6, I'm a little stuck. Are draw 7s good against stax? I would imagine they are...

Check out the decklist before you post.

Xantid Swarm.  I love the card.  I played it in 2.5c long.  My board contained bayou, trop, 4 xantid.  It was amazing.  But for this deck, its not needed since you already have 7 cards to stop them and you honestly don't really want to sideboard a single card out.

Do not play a 4th grim tutor.  Seriously, do not do it.  It is terrible.  You do not want to see more than 1 during the course of the game and a second in your opening hand is worthless.

That's not true:

The first Grim Tutor can find Lotus, the second Will.  With Cabal Ritual, you have enough mana and threshold to do it in a single stroke.

[Smmenen]

This is very possibly the best deck in Vintage (if there can be such a thing).  I think for most players, its simply better than Grim Long.  It's got a weaker Control match, but it trades of a much better game one against Combo and a much, much stronger overall match against Stax.   It's simpler to play than Grim Long (aside from knowing when to crack fetchlands and which lands to get), and thats not a bad thing.  The mental burden of playing grim long is often very great.  The only real vunerability to walk into is REBs (and stifle, but stifle is not very threatening). 

My testing reveals that 3 Grim Tutors is probably fine and furthermore that Windfall must be included as well. 

The only change I'd make is this:  My quesiton is: why Flooded Strand over Bloodstained Mire?  In my testing, I wanted Mire more frequently than Strand.  The Strand is better in the Stax match, but the Mire is better everywhere else.  I think that 1/1 may be appropriate. 

[sean1i0]

Since I've been playing Grim Long for a few months now, happily I may add (a.k.a. thanks for such a great deck), what type of control matchups should I be expecting when I test Pitch Long?  I can definitely see where the Stax matchup, which was already good, would just go through the roof and the same thing, to a lesser extent, with the combo game 1 matchup, but I'm really not sure what to expect as far as the cotrol matchup goes.  Any words of wisdom or statistics about it?

[heiner]

Hi,

Smemen is right in all of his points. 3 grims are enough.
Bloodstrained Mires are definitely better that Flooded Strands as black is still your primary color.

The dec has been showing up in two of the last T8s  over here in germany with taking first place in Iserlohn.

I am glad people learn to apreciate the power of Grim Tutor.

@sean: The control matchup is probably the best one you have with this dec. Due to added disruption it should be at least on the same level than grim long.

[Moxlotus]

The control match is a joke.  Unless they have modified their maindeck to ream combo this is your best match.  Game 1 against Stax is rough, but you should be able to pull out games 2 and 3 more often than not.  SS kinda sucks to play against since they have infinite stifles to screw up your fetchlands.  Strands fetch out your basic island in the Stax matchup for the ESG/Bounce plan and that's a current topic in our team forums.  Oath is favorable but not amazing.  The combo mirror is undertested at the moment so I can't really mention much on that.