TheManaDrain.com
September 21, 2025, 11:28:13 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Staxless Stax...the next evolution of Workshop decks?  (Read 20030 times)
iamfishman
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1014


Euclid's Elements is MY bible!

PLIKEY
View Profile Email
« on: July 05, 2006, 09:41:36 am »

I send the following article to SCG, but there was no room for it...so I'm posting it here for criticism, discussion, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a new card coming out in Coldsnap.  I’ll tell you what it does and then you can tell me if it is good in type 1.

It costs 4 mana(More than Yawgmoth’s Will, Necro, Tinker, or Thirst for Knowledge)

When you play it, here’s what it does:
NOTHING.

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn it does:
NOTHING

You take your next turn.  You put a counter on it.  Then, guess what it does:
NOTHING

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn(now four turns later) it does:
The worst Misguided Rage ever. (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=24852)

Okay, big deal.  You spent 4 mana, four turns, and a card to make your opponent sacrifice his worst permanent.  It can’t get worse, can it.

On your next turn, you sacrifice a permanent as well.  Ladies and gentleman, this card is worse than Misguided Rage.

Are you ready for the real surprise.  As the more astute of you have already noticed, this is not a card from Coldsnap.  On the contrary, it is a card you all have already been using without questioning its merit: Smokestack.

Yes, I am using this forum to suggest that Smokestack is a hands-down terrible card in type 1.  I will continue my argument and submit for critique a deck discussion about a Staxless build I have been tearing up type 1 tournaments with.

First, and foremost, let me seemingly go back on my word and so that Smokestack is not unusable, but rather just too much of a situation specific card.  Consider that you are on the play versus a Control Slaver deck and you keep a hand including Mox, Mishra’s Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, and Smokestack.   This should put you in a very agreeable situation, assuming the Smokestack is not Force of Willed.  One would argue that this is the primary reason why the card is good.  Here are the flaws in the argument.

1.)   The matchup has to do with the quality of Smokestack.  If the deck you were playing against were Ichorid, Fish(or some other deck with Wasteland to hit your Workshop and keep Crucible off the board), GrimLong or some other Combo deck, or another Stax deck, you might have an advantage, but certainly not a lock.
2.)   Decks like Control Slaver or Gifts, the two decks that this first turn play is best against, can still very commonly handle this draw with a Force of Will, a first turn Welder from CS or a Mox heavy hand from Gifts.
3.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can be part of an early lock makes the following other cards “good”: Nether Void, Possessed Portal, Rule of Law(against Combo), Stasis, and Land Equilibrium.
4.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can combo with other cards, like Stax with Crucible or Goblin Welder, is true, but weak.  When you combine two cards in Type 1 they should do things like, Tinker into Colossus, or Weld in a Mindslaver.  Basically, I am surprised that people get excited about being able to turn Smokestack, from “each player sacrifices” permanents to “your opponent sacrifice one thing each turn.”
5.)   Without a card to combo with Smokestack, in most matchups the card is nothing spectacular, falling just above the line of symmetrical.  Type 1 cards need to be a little bit better that “just above symmetrical.”
6.)   Most importantly, Smokestack is a very suboptimal draw mid to late game.  The card offers an out if played early, but after a few turns, its effects are not felt unless the game runs for many, many more turns.

It is for these reason and more that I would suggest that Smokestack is simply a great sideboard card against Control decks.  Unfortunately, this is not much of a claim, as there are plenty of control deck hosers out there to choose from.

Let me know introduce you to the deck I have been playing/testing/tuning for months.  The most recent version looks like this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17470

Before I go into the analysis of the deck, let me begin, as any person trying to persuade another would, by listing credentials, specifically those for the deck.  Here are the high finishes I have had with the deck, listed not to be boastful, but to give this deck build some credibility to keep you reading.

3rd Place- GP: Samite 1 Mox Tourney- Nov 5, 2005
17th Place- SCG Rochester- Dec 10, 2005
Finals Split- Double Midnight Mox Tourney- Dec 11, 2005
Finals Split- Beanie Exchange Mox Tourney- Dec 17, 2005
16th Place- SCG Richmond(Day 2)- March 26, 2006
1st Place- GP: Samite 2 Mox Tourney- April 29, 2006
1st Place- Myriad Games Mox Tourney- May 13, 2006
8/9th Place(Keith Johnson* played it as well)- Beanie Exchange Mox Tourney- May 21, 2006
1st Place- TMD Open 9 Trial, Hadley- May 27, 2006
2nd Place- Beanie Exchange 4 Workshop Tourney- June 17, 2006
Top 8- Battlegrounds Mox Tourney- June 24, 2006

As for the deck, I feel it will be easier to discuss on a card by card basis first.  I will then look at specific matchups and discuss sideboarding options.

- Why no Sphere of Resistance?
In general, I feel the same about Sphere of Resistance that I do about Smokestack, with both cards usually being a little bit better than symmetrical.  If I had to choose between the two, Sphere of Resistance is the better card when considered independent of others(Smokestack is better when comboed with other cards).  The reason for this is simple: a first turn Sphere of Resistance actually does something to your opponent.  Granted, what it does in not spectacular.  Typically it means your opponents first turn is “Land, Play a Mox, Play a Mox, go”, not that great by far.  This “optimal” play is even based on you playing the card turn one, and when on the play.  Like Smokestack the card gets significantly worse, approaching marginal, as the game goes on.  Your opponent will only see it as a minor inconvenience.

The one exception to this rule: Combo.  As I said Smokestack is at best a sideboard card against control, Sphere should be viewed as a sideboard card against combo.  Whereas a Trinisphere is unquestionable for its turn one potential, Sphere of Resistance is just a compliment to Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void against those players who seek to cover you in Tendrils of Agony.

- Chalice of the Void
Infinitely better on the play, CotV is the card in the deck that I have discussed, critiqued, debated, and agonized over most.  Is it a maindeck, sideboard, or neither card?  The card has finally found a spot in the maindeck(whereas it used to be a SB card against Combo or when I knew I was on the play), and it has served well there.  With few exceptions, it supplements an early Crucible or Trinisphere if set on zero on turn 1, however, it serves obvious other functions.  Whether it be one or zero (situation specific) against combo, two against fish, two against oath, two against control, or one or two against Sulliavn Solution, this card has many uses.  Keep in mind that Chalice on two very rarely hurts this deck, but because of Welder among other cards, think twice before playing it at one.  Chalice is typically sided out only if I know I am on the draw which will be discussed later in my sideboarding matrix.

- Darksteel Ingot?
This card has led to more game wins than any card in the deck, though this is not apparent unless you look closely at the games and see the cards it has enabled me to cast.  Due to the lack of typical Stax cards, this deck has more room for colored spells.  As such, it is very common for me to play Shop, Ingot, Welder, Shaman, Ancestral, or Crop Rotation on turn one.  Many times, this was my only colored source, and I would have lost the game had it not resolved.  What strikes me as flavorful is that this has never been an issue, because an opponent has never thought to counter it, now would I expect them to since I may just as likely have a City or Gemstone Mine in hand.  Overall, this card does a terrific job of solidifying a shaky mana base involving shops and a thick five color assortment of spells.

- Tangle Wire without Smokestack or Sphere of Resistance?
Many ask why I run this card without the other two, since they seem as unquestioned, and possibly even more heralded then a different holy trinity.  Think of Tangle Wire not as mana denial(though it is), but as a series of little time walks.  Tangle Wire is the least symmetrical of the Trifecta(Sphere, Stack, Wire) of artifacts and the most efficient at helping the rest of the deck run.  When played it does something immediately.  It shuts control decks most efficiently nullifying counterspells, and allowing your spells to resolve easily, or it keeps Fish’s creatures at bay.  It often amounts to 2-3 turns to break out your real bombs, of which you are less deep, compared to other decks.  Furthermore, it is a potent early lock with a Welder, tapping 4 things versus forcing a sacrifice of one, but more importantly it is usually optimal even turn 2, 3, or 4. The thing to keep in mind, is how similar it is to a Trinisphere.  When it comes down, your opponent must counter it, or not counter the next spell.  It is this decks version of Duress.

- Sensei’s Divining Top
As mentioned in the last paragraph, the deck runs less thick with regard to key spells compared to most deck.  As such, this card plays a huge roll in finding key cards turn after turn.  The weakness of the card that I am trying to remedy: Not enough shuffle effects.  An excellent card to tap to Tangle Wire, or Draw when switching with Goblin Welder, Top has been nothing short of spectacular for the deck.  One trick some may not be aware of that has come in handy on more than one occasion is to activate the look ability, then the draw ability, to bury a top you don’t want to draw back into.

- 3 Crucibles(and as will be seen the constant boarding out of only two of them)
While this may be obvious, unlike Tangle Wire and Chalice which are good in multiples, nothing is gained from multiple Crucibles other than meaningless redundancy.  For this reason, often in sideboarding, 2 Crucibles are taken out and 1 left in using the silver bullet strategy of tutoring/tinkering one up when needed.

How the deck plays:

Typically the most important key to the deck is getting Goblin Welder into play and having him become active.  More so than other Welder decks, this deck relies on Welder.  Whether it be repeated use of Memory Jar(on of the most common Tinker targets) or welding out their artifacts to then eat with Karn or Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Welder always has a use. 

Mana is important to the deck and any hand that looks sketchy without a Sensei’s Divining Top should be mulliganed.  Keep in mind that unlike decks with brainstorm, this deck can’t easily fix its mana.  Darksteel Ingot should help, but it is useful in a game one without knowing your opponent’s deck to assume they will play a turn one Wasteland when deciding to Mulligan or not.  If the hand can’t survive such a Wasteland, throw it back.

As a general rule of thumb, consider the following as essential mulligans (meaning that your hand mind as well be one card less if the rest of your cards are bad) when considering an opening hand:
-   A Chalice on the draw
-   Any of your 6+ casting cost artifact dudes with less than 3 mana in your opening hand.
-   And hand with three Mishra’s Workshop
-   Any hand with two colored mana spells and no colored mana sources
-   Two Crucibles with no Wasteland or Strip Mine

While playing, against most matchups, Jarring over the course of many turns while getting many permanents in play is the route to victory in a similar way to how Welder/Slaver takes over the game in CS.  Note to be very careful when dealing with jar that a Rebuild or Hurkyll’s Recall can make you lose all your artifacts.  Make sure to place priority on denying their mana or playing a Chalice to keep this from happening.

Don’t tip a Wasteland or Strip Mine until Crucible has resolved.  This subtlety may certainly get your Crucible to stick.

With Triskelion, when facing Swords, ping the Triskelion with himself first, then shoot whatever.  This way a Swords in response to the last ping won’t remove your Triskelion from the game.

Play City of Brass over Gemstone Mine when given the option.  The damage with this deck is much less of a worry then the possibility of not having enough colored mana.

SIDEBOARDING



Comments on Matches/Boarding

Against Fish: Tangle Wires are less good on the play, as they will never be needed early.  Accordingly you act like the protagonist on the play, trying to explode out a quick Jar, Trisk, Chalice on two etc.  On the draw you are purely reactionary and so Tangle Wire should buy you time you need to recover from their early threats.  Eon Hub as a sideboard slot here might have turned heads, but consider the effect it has on Aether Vial, Dark Confidant, Energy Flux, and Kataki, that last two of which which normally crush the deck.

Against Oath: This is a tough match due to your lack of creature removal.  Eon Hub is obvious here, especially because it also shuts down Energy Flux from their board, but what might not be so obvious is that Tangle Wire is no help against a resolved oath since they stack their Oath first, then your Wire, so they will end up with hasted untapped dudes.  Duplicant is optimal in this situation and almost any opening hand containing him should be kept.

Against Grim Long/MeanDeck Tendrils: This one is in the hands of God if they go first, but you can certainly shore up your odds if you get any one of the three enchantments (Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, or In the Eye of Chaos) from your board in play.  Against MeanDeck Tendrils you could afford to bring in Crypts simply because Crucibles are almost completely meaningless.  I have not found space to take out for Crypts against Grim Long, though, that deck can more easily go off without Will, so I have not found this to be an issue.

Against Ichorid: Game 1 is very bad for you, but I have found incredible success game two and three after boarding.  With so much hate being brought in for your useless cards, you have about a 75% chance in post board games(65% on the draw, 85% on the play).  Don’t be too hasty with a Crypt if you don’t have Hub anywhere in sight.  Suck up some damage and let them fill their graveyard first.  The impetus is on them and they will have no choice but to keep dredging if they want to try to win quickly, so you should always get great mileage out of a Tormod’s Crypt.

Against Stax: This one is a toss up, however, since the huge advantage goes to the player who plays a Chalice for zero on the play, or gets Crucible lock first.  Tangle Wire is most symmetrical in this match and so you can afford to side it out, as is Trinisphere on the draw. Chalice on the draw is just awful.  Keep in mind that Crypt is good against both Welder and Crucible, two key cards in this matchup.  Furthermore, you really want an opening hand with an answer to Goblin Welder if you want to have a decent shot in this matchup. Don’t feel weird about siding Eon Hub in when siding out Tangle Wire because a typical Stax player might not have enough stuff in his board for him to easily remove both his Wires and Smokestacks.

Against Gifts/Control Slaver: Against Gift you can clearly remove Triskelion, but keep in Duplicant for Darksteel Colossus.  Though killing Welder in the CS match is important, you can’t afford to allow 6 drain mana to do so.  Take out Trisk for cheaper creature kill.  Choke comes in for both matchups and is a house against each deck.  What may seem weird is to take out Tangle Wire in the match where it is best.  Just as against Fish, if you know you are on the play you are the protagonist, and it is their job to have first turn Force of Will for your first threat.  Crucible is removed because of its redundancy with Choke and due to the fact that fetch lands and basic Islands make Crucible only good, not great.  In the Eye of Chaos is obvious as a side in. Crop Rotation, while losing steam with the removal of Crucible, is also a spell that hurts when countered and so it comes out of the main deck.

Against Sullivan Solution: With the least experience against this deck, I can still offer some commentary due to its similarity in various aspects to other matchups.  Just as against control, Tangle Wire comes out on the play where Crucible is better, and the situation is reversed on the draw. Note that this deck is least hurt by Gorilla Shaman and Karn, so they are not missed after boarding.  Chalice for 2 is a good play.

It is my hope that this deck has peaked your interest.  I feel very much that this is the next step in the evolution of Workshop decks and would love to see this deck finally receive the attention that I know it deserves.  My words alone, aren’t enough though.  I encourage you to test this deck for yourself and form your own opinions.  I welcome all feedback on this article and deck.  Feel free to email me at iamfishman2000@hotmail.com, AIM me at PLIKEY, or PM me on themanadrain.com

Thanks for you time and I hope you enjoyed this article.

Ray Robillard
Waterbury Tournament Organizer
Plikey on AIM
Iamfishman on themanadrain.com

* Special thanks to Keith Johnson for help in building/testing this deck and for reading and critiquing this article before it was posted.  His help was invaluable and he is specifically credited with the inclusion of Eon Hub in the sideboard.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 10:37:41 am by iamfishman » Logged

RIP Mogg Fanatic...at least you are still better than Fire Bowman!!!

I was once asked on MWS, what the highest I ever finished at a TMD Open was.  I replied, "I've never played in a Waterbury.  I was then called "A TOTAL NOOB!"
Whatever Works
Basic User
**
Posts: 814


Kyle+R+Leith
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 10:31:28 am »

Amazing detailed analysis of a an extremely good deck that most people outside on NE know nothing about! If all decks had primers/discussions half as detailed as your single post the format would be advanced sooo much further then it is now! I really like what you did with showing the sideboard matchup's, and they really helped me from a players perspective understand why I won or lost games 2 or 3 vs. your deck in tournements!

Great Job!

Kyle L
Logged

Team Retribution
Sean Ryan
Basic User
**
Posts: 279



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 12:48:32 pm »

Your deck has been on my radar for awhile, and I must say I like what where you've taken "Stax."  It is reminiscent of old Workshop Slaver without the consistency problems.  Oh, and the SB grid is about the coolest thing evar and should become standard for articles like this.  Anyway, enough backslapping and all.

Did you test Bazaar at all?  It seems like it would have serious potential, at least as a singelton.  I'm glad to see Chalice is in the MD now.  The deck seams much more consistent than when you had them in the SB and were running all of the draw 7s. 

Why no Speres in the SB?  We are seeing lots of combo and the 3 costing enchantments are much slower and fewer than  what combo demands these days.  Your thoughts?

What made you drop Slaver?  I thought this was one of the bombs that made Smokestack obsolete.  What was your reasoning for cutting it?  Was it the activation cost being to prohibitive?

Were there any particular cards you wanted to fit in but couldn't find room for?

Thanks
Sean
Logged

Vintage - Time Vault vs Null Rod
iamfishman
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1014


Euclid's Elements is MY bible!

PLIKEY
View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 01:29:12 pm »

Your deck has been on my radar for awhile, and I must say I like what where you've taken "Stax."  It is reminiscent of old Workshop Slaver without the consistency problems.  Oh, and the SB grid is about the coolest thing evar and should become standard for articles like this.  Anyway, enough backslapping and all.

Did you test Bazaar at all?  It seems like it would have serious potential, at least as a singelton.  I'm glad to see Chalice is in the MD now.  The deck seams much more consistent than when you had them in the SB and were running all of the draw 7s. 

I tested Bazaar for a short while, however, if you think of it like I spell that cannot be played the same turn as a land(excepting of course from crop rotation), you can see why the slot is tough.  Yes, it interacts well with Welder and Crucible, though I don't NEED to have a discard outlet for Crucible and I produce alot of mana with the deck, enough to just pop out my artifacts and weld them back in for a second use.

Quote
Why no Speres in the SB?  We are seeing lots of combo and the 3 costing enchantments are much slower and fewer than  what combo demands these days.  Your thoughts?

This thought has come across my mind, but I really think the Arcane Lab slows them down tremendously more than Sphere of Resistance.  Most combo decks run Rebuild which in two ways negates Sphere...one: by bouncing the Sphere.  But also allowing the player to drop Land...Pay for a mox...tap...pay for a mox...tap...pay for a mox, but not lose out on that precious storm later on.

Quote
What made you drop Slaver?  I thought this was one of the bombs that made Smokestack obsolete.  What was your reasoning for cutting it?  Was it the activation cost being to prohibitive?

It mostly had to do with the decks central idea of "do stuff now".  A total of 10 mana before Slaver has any impact is huge, though I honestly have been trying to find space to fit it back in as Grim Long and other combo has been coming back to life.
Quote
Were there any particular cards you wanted to fit in but couldn't find room for?
Currently, I'm trying to make room for Gamble...it interacts well(Better?) with the deck than Baazar by both finding the key card in the deck AND providing a discard outlet after dropping your hand.

Logged

RIP Mogg Fanatic...at least you are still better than Fire Bowman!!!

I was once asked on MWS, what the highest I ever finished at a TMD Open was.  I replied, "I've never played in a Waterbury.  I was then called "A TOTAL NOOB!"
Sean Ryan
Basic User
**
Posts: 279



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 01:52:46 pm »

Quote
Quote
Why no Speres in the SB?  We are seeing lots of combo and the 3 costing enchantments are much slower and fewer than  what combo demands these days.  Your thoughts?

This thought has come across my mind, but I really think the Arcane Lab slows them down tremendously more than Sphere of Resistance.  Most combo decks run Rebuild which in two ways negates Sphere...one: by bouncing the Sphere.  But also allowing the player to drop Land...Pay for a mox...tap...pay for a mox...tap...pay for a mox, but not lose out on that precious storm later on.

Ok, I can see that, especially since this build isn't dedicated to a complete lock.  The 3 non-shop mana is what gets me though.

What do you think of running Juggs in the SB for the Stax and Fish match up?  SpookyKid has had some success with this in traditional Stax.  It seems like your strategy for the mirror is to trump them with Eon Hub and win the Welder war.  Personally, I would want access to at least 1 removal/bounce spell to break the lock/advantage.  What do you think?  In my Stax SB I usually had 2 Ray of Revelation & 2 RnR/Shattering Spree, whereas you have Eon hub.  I like the Hub in theory but 5 mana racing an Oath activation seems risky as your main way of shoring up a weak match up.

I really need to play the deck more before I can speak about the SB anymore, which is really where most of my questions are geared.

Thanks
Sean
Logged

Vintage - Time Vault vs Null Rod
TK
Basic User
**
Posts: 83

xtk87x
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 01:57:51 pm »

your reprort is very well written and you have done a good job analyzing most matchups, but i think you have made a serious error with how you have gone about judging smokestack.

I myself am one of two players on my team known for playing stax and have played jsut about every build imaginable. the thing is yes smokestack is slow, yes it can be situational to a point, and in some matchups its jsut not very good. the thing is smokestack is often the best card int he deck aginst some matchups. smokestack is often the best card for installing a hard lock on your opponent.

you have obviously put in a lot of work on the deck but i think many people lately have been to quick to discard stack from there decks. if you really want to remove stack from a workshop deck my suggestion is go and play gilded claw. its the most broken workshop deck that doesnt run stack.
Logged

TK proud Member of team ICBM
misslehead3
Basic User
**
Posts: 57

misslehead3@hotmail.com misslehead3
View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 01:58:47 pm »

I'm sorrybu I'm awestruck. This is eisily the most detailed and useful almost primer of a deck  I have ever seen. Pro's included here. It it so detailed. You have card choices, a sideboard plan, past records. I'm amazed that people  can take he time to do something this great.



Thank You
Logged
Jank Golem
Basic User
**
Posts: 146


danzps0
View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 02:27:11 pm »

First of all, great deck I'm really impressed with it having played against it before. How often does Eon Hub hurt you to, given that it prevents Tangle Wire from working while it is in play? Against combo Arcane Lab/Rule of Law seem expensive, wouldn't something cheaper like Root Maze be better? While Root Maze does not beat combo outright it helps quite a bit  and is also strong vs. Dragon, and vs. Control in conjunction with Choke. Thanks!
Logged
LordHomerCat
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1397

Lord+Homer+Cat
View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2006, 03:12:49 pm »

Am I reading it wrong, or do you sideboard in Eon Hub for Grimlong?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reason you would want that card against them.  Am I missing something, or just not reading very well?
Logged

Team Meandeck

Team Serious

Quote from: spider
LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
Gaagooch
Basic User
**
Posts: 151


TPS

brokennflawed brokennflawed
View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2006, 08:30:59 pm »

You are reading wrong he sideboards in Hubs against Oath.  Ray very, very nice article.  Very well written and to the point.  I think you will find as more and more people read your article and your very in depth sideboarding strategy, that over time this deck may be more played than Stax.  It is a great deck and i am very happy to see that you are still working on it to perfect it to the best it can be.  As always i will always be glad to test with you if you would ever like.  Again very well written and very informative.
Logged

--Team Perfect Scrubs--

--I am the walrus..Goo Goo Gaagooch--
Nixons_Evil_Twin
Basic User
**
Posts: 6


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2006, 08:45:53 pm »

Kudos on the excellent primer. Personally, I can easily see how the added synergies in your list can improve the deck relative to more traditional Stax. I will test the build, although the transition could be a tough one!
Logged
The Chosen One
Basic User
**
Posts: 456


Team BHWW- Spreading the love, coast to coast

Bruenor71176 joe_tank76@yahoo.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2006, 09:14:55 pm »

Amazing article Ray, like you said, I problably should have played this at the Enfield tournament instead of my crappy gifts deck Wink.

I have to say this deck does take ALOT of practice to really master. I almost got frustrated with it a bunch of time when practicing because in my opinion(which may be wrong) but for me it just doesnt draw enough cards. I am not very lucky in topdeck mode, so every time I have ever played this deck and been backed into an origionally advantageous position, but topdecking, I have had horrendous results. Maybe it's just not the deck for my playing style, but kudos to you for making it work so well in your hands.

It was fun practicing with you before the tournament in Enfield, I hope to attend Waterbury at the end of this month. Good luck taking down more tournaments with this deck!

Joe
Logged

There are doors that lock, and doors that dont, there are doors that let you in and out but never open, and there are trap doors...... That you cant come back from-Radio Head
My Ebay auctions:
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/bigbowler76
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2006, 09:47:53 pm »

Why no Demonic Consultation? Unlike regular Stax, you have plenty of win conditions, so there's no great risk of having them all removed.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Cross
Basic User
**
Posts: 454


Ribs+24+7
View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2006, 10:55:09 pm »

I think you should expand more on why you play top, atm it seems like it's just for cute tricks.

My experience with top has been that it just causes me to lose against decks with null rod. I would go land mox top, thinking that was the shit play, and my opponent would go land mox null rod, so i basically just mulled to 5, and probably lost that game.

Other than that it just delays me from drawing cards that weren't helpful at that particular moment, which is more of a deckbuilding issue than a play issue. After playing it enough I found that the card just wasnt doing anything, and that was in a deck with far more shuffle effects, and tons of bounce for cute tricks.

Anything in stax deck can be tapped to wire, and just cause you draw a card when you weld doesn't mean it's good, solemn simulacrum does the same if not more, it even hits for 2.
Logged

the GG skwad

"109)   Cast Leeches.

110)   You win the game."
pyr0ma5ta
Basic User
**
Posts: 451


More cowbell


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2006, 11:12:52 pm »

I think you should expand more on why you play top, atm it seems like it's just for cute tricks.

I agree.  Top just seems like dead weight in an otherwise well-tuned list.  The rest of the list seems very good, however.  Bazaar is now an established draw engine in Stax lists.  I don't buy your "I need my land drops" argument, as you're also hurting for a draw engine.  Would Bazaar in those slots possibly be better?
Logged

Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
b-tings
Basic User
**
Posts: 114


I'm gonna sing the doom song!


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2006, 12:11:17 am »

6.)   Most importantly, Smokestack is a very suboptimal draw mid to late game.  The card offers an out if played early, but after a few turns, its effects are not felt unless the game runs for many, many more turns.

While I am duly impressed by both your finishes with the deck and your well-written article, I am not so impressed with your analysis of Smokestack. I think this point, in particular, is thoroughly misguided.

Since you don't provide any particular definition for "mid-to-late" game, I will offer one: a state of semi-developed or well-developed mana in which players can play either their high-curve cards (say, Gifts Ungiven) or a mid-curve and low-curve card in the same turn (Mana Drain or Thirst plus a Brainstorm). If you have something different in mind when you say mid-to-late game, please enlighten us, as vagueness about this sort of thing leads to a lot of running in circles (See: Luck in Magic).

Allow me, based on this definition, to introduce you to another card that is a very suboptimal draw in the mid to late game. In fact, I would estimate that 8/10 times I draw this card in that game state, I lose the game. It is so weak in the late game, in fact, that it is usually significantly less powerful than drawing a land with an empty hand in this state. This card is Dark Ritual, and everything I've said about it is completely insignificant. So insignificant, in fact, that it's retarded half-brother is usually at least a two-of.

Combo is willing to play cards that suck in the mid-to-late game because it is designed to, ideally, never, ever go there. It wants to force other decks to play entirely during the early game with hands full of cards that are bombs in the mid-to-late game, leveraging tempo cards like Dark Ritual to ensure those bombs never come online.

Stax, in its traditional forms, is very similar to combo decks in this respect, except that it "combos out" over a number of turns. Rather than compressing the entire game to fit inside the frame of the first 2.2 sources of mana, it expands the first 2.2 sources of mana over many turns, by using Gorilla Shaman/Null Rod/CotV/Karn to shut out opposing moxen, and then attacking the opponent's land. The latter is accomplished chiefly by Waste effects, recurred or otherwise, and Smokestack. Smokestack may do all of the things you said, but it is absolutely the most powerful card available for perpetuating this under-developed, early-game state. This has always been the goal of Stax decks: to retard the game so much that their opponents are reduced to playing, if anything at all, only support cards, and no actual threats, and Smokestack is absolutely the best card in your arsenal to ensure your opponent remains in this game state permanently.

I don't want to sound to negitive, so I'll end on an unrelated note: it's good to see someone else playing Time Walk in a 5c "Stax" deck. It's constant disinclusion from lists since Cron's has perplexed me to no end, as it really is about the best play this deck has turn one off a 5c land and a mox, and probably the second-strongest turn one play it has after Trinisphere.
Logged

"Be like the squirrel, girl, be like the squirrel."
                        -The White Stripes
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2006, 12:21:24 am »

Quote
Smokestack is absolutely the best card in your arsenal to ensure your opponent remains in this game state permanently.
 

But there's the problem.  It is only good IF your opponent has been mana locked.  Stack needs other cards to have a chance at being good.  Even then, it isn't even that great until its been in play a full turn.  Now more than ever it is next to impossible to be able to consistantly lock your opponent out of mana.  People have fetches and basics, are playing bounce spells at multiple CCs, or have ESGs in the board to help fuel an EOT Hurkyl's through SoR.  It is simply too hard to reach that gamestate and therefore Stack is rarely effective.  Hell, IT was created out of the realization of this.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2006, 09:15:06 am »

First off, I love your deck, and I am un-victorious against it =P   (as in you are undefeated against me with it).   I'm so glad to FINALLY see you post it with some explination.

as for the critque:
I'm not really sure I agree with your "Side Out's"  against Fish.

On the Play you side out a Crucible.  This doesn't make sense to me because you have to drop your land first, and they may turn 1 waste you.  It seems like Crucible would be good if you were on the play.

On the Draw you side out trinisphere.  In a day and age where Fish has more or less abandon Vial, why would you take out trinisphere??  Esp with fish running confidant I think the fish mana curve has drop slightly (to avoid damage)  It seems like you would want trinisphere in against them no matter if your on the P or D.


How is your fish matchup in general?  In my shop aggro deck I run 3 Eon Hub and 2 Razormane Masticore .. which does a great job of mopping the floor with fish, even those fish decks that run Null rod.  any thoughts about that?
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Hydra
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 168


The Andy Probasco of Vint... Hey wait a second!

HydraTheOwnageOne@hotmail.com Hy+The+Egomaniac
View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2006, 09:33:08 am »

I think you should expand more on why you play top, atm it seems like it's just for cute tricks.

I agree.  Top just seems like dead weight in an otherwise well-tuned list.  The rest of the list seems very good, however.  Bazaar is now an established draw engine in Stax lists.  I don't buy your "I need my land drops" argument, as you're also hurting for a draw engine.  Would Bazaar in those slots possibly be better?

Bazaar is an established draw engine because in other Stax lists you either have Uba Mask to to make it essentially a free Ancestral Recall a turn, or you have a larger number of weldable lock pieces that you can see.  In Ray's list, there are only 5* cards you really want to be welding in off Bazaar: Memory Jar and the 4 Tangle Wires.  Unless you got the Bazaar active REALLY early, welding in Trinisphere tends not to do much, and welding in Chalices is almost certainly pointless in most cases. 

Bazaar isn't so much a draw engine as it is a mini-tutor that tries to maximize the potential of Welder and Crucible, and due to the design of this deck it is less likely to be able to abuse that tutoresque effect.  The Tops, on the other hand, give Ray the ability to maximize his topdecking potential while at the same time offering Ray a Welder target in a pinch.  Top may not be card advantage, but it allows the deck to try to play a threat each turn from its hand and still be able to try to weld it in if said threat were to be countered.  Bazaar, after a couple of activations, doesn't allow you to do that.

*I'm not counting creatures there, as saying "I can weld in Karn off Bazaar!" is a poor argument for the card's inclusion.  Putting yourself in the situation where you need an active Welder to access your win conditions is folly in my opinion, as there's certainly no guarantees that the Welder (or the artifacts you're trying to weld with) are going to be staying in play.   I'd much rather draw the threat, and then weld it in if the threat is destroyed/countered for the first go around.
Logged

"You know, Chuck Norris may be able to roundhouse kick an entire planet to death, but only Jerry Orbach could stand over its corpse and make a one-liner."

Team Reflection: Jesus Approved!
BreathWeapon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1554


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2006, 10:45:47 am »

What is the deck's experience against Combo with 1 Trinisphere and 4 Chalice of the Void being the only thing standing between them and Tendrils for the win? When I built my Confidant Workshop Aggro deck I found myself needing Chains of Mephistopheles just to have a chance against them game one. Tangle Wire just never impressed me against Combo, I think it's such a dangerous card to trust in.

Hide/Seek looks like it was made for a deck like this, have you tried it?
Logged
Cross
Basic User
**
Posts: 454


Ribs+24+7
View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2006, 11:59:27 am »

I think you should expand more on why you play top, atm it seems like it's just for cute tricks.

I agree.  Top just seems like dead weight in an otherwise well-tuned list.  The rest of the list seems very good, however.  Bazaar is now an established draw engine in Stax lists.  I don't buy your "I need my land drops" argument, as you're also hurting for a draw engine.  Would Bazaar in those slots possibly be better?
Bazaar is an established draw engine because in other Stax lists you either have Uba Mask to to make it essentially a free Ancestral Recall a turn, or you have a larger number of weldable lock pieces that you can see.  In Ray's list, there are only 5* cards you really want to be welding in off Bazaar: Memory Jar and the 4 Tangle Wires.  Unless you got the Bazaar active REALLY early, welding in Trinisphere tends not to do much, and welding in Chalices is almost certainly pointless in most cases. 

Bazaar isn't so much a draw engine as it is a mini-tutor that tries to maximize the potential of Welder and Crucible, and due to the design of this deck it is less likely to be able to abuse that tutoresque effect.  The Tops, on the other hand, give Ray the ability to maximize his topdecking potential while at the same time offering Ray a Welder target in a pinch.  Top may not be card advantage, but it allows the deck to try to play a threat each turn from its hand and still be able to try to weld it in if said threat were to be countered.  Bazaar, after a couple of activations, doesn't allow you to do that.

I am not personally recommending replacing it with bazaar. I just think that the idea of top doing anything important is an illusion.
Logged

the GG skwad

"109)   Cast Leeches.

110)   You win the game."
orgcandman
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 552


Providence protects children and idiots

orgcandman
View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2006, 12:14:57 pm »

Combo is willing to play cards that suck in the mid-to-late game because it is designed to, ideally, never, ever go there.
This is sortof correct, although I'll say that grim tutor, and mana accelerants are never terrible cards.

Stax, in its traditional forms, is very similar to combo decks in this respect, except that it "combos out" over a number of turns.
Meaning it is going to make the game stretch out longer.

Rather than compressing the entire game to fit inside the frame of the first 2.2 sources of mana, it expands the first 2.2 sources of mana over many turns, by using Gorilla Shaman/Null Rod/CotV/Karn to shut out opposing moxen, and then attacking the opponent's land.
But, unlike Grim Long / Gifts / other decks, you need the exact correct combination of opening grip cards in order to get yourself in a "winning" position for your lock pieces to mean anything.

The latter is accomplished chiefly by Waste effects, recurred or otherwise, and Smokestack.
Basics are abundant, meaning your strip mine is your ace-in-the-hole right now, as opposed to previous builds which could rely on 4x wasteland to never be dead.

Worse than that, smokestack is a 4cc card that you need to get down quickly. The reason it needs to come online by turn two is that after that, drain mana is up, and is usually of the unwasteable variety.

Smokestack is terrible for the late game precisely because the late game is where stax wants to already be winning. Smokestack takes 3 turns to do anything. 3 TURNS!! In the mid-lategame! That's silly slow.


Smokestack may do all of the things you said, but it is absolutely the most powerful card available for perpetuating this under-developed, early-game state.
There you go, you've just said it. If you're winning in the early game, then stax isn't what you want lategame. And if its gotten to the lategame and you AREN'T winning, stax isn't what you want off the top. I'm not gonna say its "win-more", but it certainly isn't all that great (which is one of the reasons I've never really played workshop prison, but that's neither here nor there).
Logged

Ball and Chain
Quote from: jdizzle
Congrats to the winners, but as we all know, everyone who went to this tournament was a winner
Quote from: iamfishman
Just to clarify...people name Aaron are amazing
tehmajickguy
Basic User
**
Posts: 162

svgmizer
View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2006, 04:14:12 pm »

I think you should expand more on why you play top, atm it seems like it's just for cute tricks.

I agree.  Top just seems like dead weight in an otherwise well-tuned list.  The rest of the list seems very good, however.  Bazaar is now an established draw engine in Stax lists.  I don't buy your "I need my land drops" argument, as you're also hurting for a draw engine.  Would Bazaar in those slots possibly be better?
Bazaar is an established draw engine because in other Stax lists you either have Uba Mask to to make it essentially a free Ancestral Recall a turn, or you have a larger number of weldable lock pieces that you can see.  In Ray's list, there are only 5* cards you really want to be welding in off Bazaar: Memory Jar and the 4 Tangle Wires.  Unless you got the Bazaar active REALLY early, welding in Trinisphere tends not to do much, and welding in Chalices is almost certainly pointless in most cases. 

Bazaar isn't so much a draw engine as it is a mini-tutor that tries to maximize the potential of Welder and Crucible, and due to the design of this deck it is less likely to be able to abuse that tutoresque effect.  The Tops, on the other hand, give Ray the ability to maximize his topdecking potential while at the same time offering Ray a Welder target in a pinch.  Top may not be card advantage, but it allows the deck to try to play a threat each turn from its hand and still be able to try to weld it in if said threat were to be countered.  Bazaar, after a couple of activations, doesn't allow you to do that.

I am not personally recommending replacing it with bazaar. I just think that the idea of top doing anything important is an illusion.


I don't understand how giving a deck with no draw/deck manipulation the ability to optimize its draws every turn, and even  dig after that for what it needs can be bad.
Logged

Team Perfect Scrubs: TMD Open 13 Winner
ashiXIII
Basic User
**
Posts: 470


ashiXIII@hotmail.com ashiXIII
View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2006, 04:43:13 pm »

I think Smokestack is being really underrated in this entire thread. I agree that the card takes way too long to do anything, and at times can be a very bad draw. However, it's one of the cards that allows you hard locks, and a very good soft lock with Crucible. It's also incredible against Drain-based decks when you just ramp the counters to reset the 'board. You have much better topdecks than they do, and as so will almost always win these games. I'm not saying that this card has to be in Stax lists. I'm just pointing out that everyone is picking apart its weaknesses while overlooking its strong points.
Logged
49 Cents
Basic User
**
Posts: 591


Von Dutch


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2006, 05:17:20 pm »

For quite a while, I really liked Smokestack. But a few tourneys ago, I started SBing them out against Drain decks because in my experience, Stack cannot get Drained. If it does, you'll most likely lose the game. Then I started SBing them out against fast decks too, because it was too often a dead card. I never knew you stopped playing it till like 2 weeks back, and I decided to give it a go. I cutted them for 3 Tangle Wires and a 2nd Triskelion, and I really liked it. I was already playing with Tops (since like December, Bob Yu suggested them in Staxx, I cutted Thirsts for them and never looked back).

What I dislike about your list is that you cutted Sphere of Resistances. They win me soooooo many games. It is good against basically anything but the mirror, it hates on hate like Rack and Ruin or Flux (because 4 mana is a hell of a lot when your mana is under attack) and it hates on good drawspells like Thirst and even Gifts. Also it is GOD against combo. Sure, they take space, but they sure are worth it.

Also, why is their no Imperial Seal in the deck? Do you dislike it? It finds answers, lockpieces like Trinisphere or Strip Mine or a wincondition. And since you play with Tops, you won't even have to wait for it.

How did you like playing with 4 Welders? Haven't you found it to be one to many? Wouldn't you rather have a 2nd Shaman / Imperial Seal / Jester's Cap / Demonic Consultation?

About the Chokes in the SB; you obviously like them, but do you like them better than In the Eye of Chaos for instance? I found that Eye actually does something against Combo, while Choke just sits there looking pretty. Sure, they are better against Fish, but is that worth it?

I like Fire/Ice, but I'm unsure if it's better than, say, Razormane Masticore or Pyroclasm.

Quote
I think Smokestack is being really underrated in this entire thread. I agree that the card takes way too long to do anything, and at times can be a very bad draw. However, it's one of the cards that allows you hard locks, and a very good soft lock with Crucible. It's also incredible against Drain-based decks when you just ramp the counters to reset the 'board. You have much better topdecks than they do, and as so will almost always win these games. I'm not saying that this card has to be in Stax lists. I'm just pointing out that everyone is picking apart its weaknesses while overlooking its strong points.

Hard locks are nice, but Staxx certainly doesn't need to hardlock someone. And Stack might be good when it hits against Drain based decks, but if it gets Drained or destroyed or bounced (Chain/H. Recall/Rebuild), they have Time Walked you or even worse. There where times I'd just say go with a Stack in my hand against open mana simply because I was way too afraid casting Stack.

Greetz,

Hugo
Logged

Team TDC: The man with a new idea is a fool. Unless the idea turns out to be a succes.

www.BeNeLegacy.nl - For all your Legacy
iamfishman
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1014


Euclid's Elements is MY bible!

PLIKEY
View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2006, 05:21:14 pm »

Holy crap...I had a HUGE reply to all these posts and I lost it when I tried to post...I am to aggrevated to post now but will redo those replies when I calm down...until then...keep the conversation going.
Logged

RIP Mogg Fanatic...at least you are still better than Fire Bowman!!!

I was once asked on MWS, what the highest I ever finished at a TMD Open was.  I replied, "I've never played in a Waterbury.  I was then called "A TOTAL NOOB!"
TopSecret
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 864


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2006, 08:28:42 pm »

     Thanks Ray, for coming out and saying what needed to be said about Smokestack.

     I noticed a while ago, while playing Workshoplock.deq, that Smokestack really isn't good.
Every game I drew it, I had to ramp it to 3 for it to do anyting... Even when it was played first turn.
Beyond the first and second turn, Smokestack is pretty horrible.
It is definately very easy to race, and it can often be ignored altogether.
The best it ever did was blow up the board after ramping it ASAP.

     Smokestack is just not fast enough to keep up with all the excelleration people play.

     I really like the deck! Good luck, and congratulations on all your current and future success!
Logged

Ball and Chain
iamfishman
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1014


Euclid's Elements is MY bible!

PLIKEY
View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2006, 02:21:53 pm »

Why no Demonic Consultation? Unlike regular Stax, you have plenty of win conditions, so there's no great risk of having them all removed.

Point taken...I just never thought of it.  I will be trying it out and I will get back to you.

What's up wit top, yo?

Top is never worse in this deck than a brainstorm(if you get just one use out of it before they bring down Null Rod) but at best assures that your draws will always be superb. The one problem, pointed out by Keith Johnson who played the deck, is that occasionally you get a glut of bad cards on top.  In this situation I wish there were more shuffle effects in the deck.  A possible solution to this is Gamble.

Yes. Gamble is the new thing I am trying out.  The discard aspect of it is not always awful when combined with Welder and Crucible.  Think of it: you cast Gamble and your opponent laughs as it resolves.  You get strip mine, don't care when that is the exact card to be discarded or not, and go nuts with Crucible.  Worst case scenario it goes for first turn Ancestral, which unless Ancestral is picked, is equivalent card advantage to Mystical -> Ancestral.

6.)   Most importantly, Smokestack is a very suboptimal draw mid to late game.  The card offers an out if played early, but after a few turns, its effects are not felt unless the game runs for many, many more turns.

While I am duly impressed by both your finishes with the deck and your well-written article, I am not so impressed with your analysis of Smokestack. I think this point, in particular, is thoroughly misguided.

Since you don't provide any particular definition for "mid-to-late" game, I will offer one: a state of semi-developed or well-developed mana in which players can play either their high-curve cards (say, Gifts Ungiven) or a mid-curve and low-curve card in the same turn (Mana Drain or Thirst plus a Brainstorm). If you have something different in mind when you say mid-to-late game, please enlighten us, as vagueness about this sort of thing leads to a lot of running in circles (See: Luck in Magic).

Allow me, based on this definition, to introduce you to another card that is a very suboptimal draw in the mid to late game. In fact, I would estimate that 8/10 times I draw this card in that game state, I lose the game. It is so weak in the late game, in fact, that it is usually significantly less powerful than drawing a land with an empty hand in this state. This card is Dark Ritual, and everything I've said about it is completely insignificant. So insignificant, in fact, that it's stupid half-brother is usually at least a two-of.

Combo is willing to play cards that suck in the mid-to-late game because it is designed to, ideally, never, ever go there. It wants to force other decks to play entirely during the early game with hands full of cards that are bombs in the mid-to-late game, leveraging tempo cards like Dark Ritual to ensure those bombs never come online.

Stax, in its traditional forms, is very similar to combo decks in this respect, except that it "combos out" over a number of turns. Rather than compressing the entire game to fit inside the frame of the first 2.2 sources of mana, it expands the first 2.2 sources of mana over many turns, by using Gorilla Shaman/Null Rod/CotV/Karn to shut out opposing moxen, and then attacking the opponent's land. The latter is accomplished chiefly by Waste effects, recurred or otherwise, and Smokestack. Smokestack may do all of the things you said, but it is absolutely the most powerful card available for perpetuating this under-developed, early-game state. This has always been the goal of Stax decks: to retard the game so much that their opponents are reduced to playing, if anything at all, only support cards, and no actual threats, and Smokestack is absolutely the best card in your arsenal to ensure your opponent remains in this game state permanently.

I don't want to sound to negitive, so I'll end on an unrelated note: it's good to see someone else playing Time Walk in a 5c "Stax" deck. It's constant disinclusion from lists since Cron's has perplexed me to no end, as it really is about the best play this deck has turn one off a 5c land and a mox, and probably the second-strongest turn one play it has after Trinisphere.

The difference is that Dark Ritual is a neccesary evil in a Grim Long deck, the deck would not be playable without it.  Workshop decks can work without Smokestack, as proven, so this comparison IMHO is not justified.

Also, yes...people are nuts to not play Time Walk.  Anyone who has even played Time Walk with a Memory Jar and Welder in play knows the nuts of it all.

As said before, this deck can't afford the land drop involved with playing Baazar.  Even though I once tested it, it was quickly dismissed as being amazing sometimes and awful the majority of the time.  It really needs Uba Mask to warrent the initial card loss and land drop.  Granted it averages out to mediocre with Welder and Crucible, and I recently realized it could dig past gluts of bad cards on top of my deck with Top in play, so I am thinking of trying maybe one that I can even Crop Rotation up to avoid wasting a turn playing it.

First off, I love your deck, and I am un-victorious against it =P (as in you are undefeated against me with it). I'm so glad to FINALLY see you post it with some explination.

as for the critque:
I'm not really sure I agree with your "Side Out's"  against Fish.

On the Play you side out a Crucible.  This doesn't make sense to me because you have to drop your land first, and they may turn 1 waste you.  It seems like Crucible would be good if you were on the play.

On the Draw you side out trinisphere.  In a day and age where Fish has more or less abandon Vial, why would you take out trinisphere??  Esp with fish running confidant I think the fish mana curve has drop slightly (to avoid damage)  It seems like you would want trinisphere in against them no matter if your on the P or D.


How is your fish matchup in general?  In my shop aggro deck I run 3 Eon Hub and 2 Razormane Masticore .. which does a great job of mopping the floor with fish, even those fish decks that run Null rod.  any thoughts about that?

I stand by my descions of Sideboarding.  The worst part about the matchup against Fish(which is pretty bad to begin with) is the creatures.  I can certainly come back from being hit by a Wasteland, especially because if you look at how I board out alot of artifacts, Workshop isn't as important.  What is more dire, is being left with no way to eliminated/deal with creatures.  Crucible #3 is not needed for this.  I would much perfer to simply lower, not eliminate, my odds of getting a Crucible in play, than be left without an answer to Kataki.

As for the Trinisphere on the draw, it is very seldom in my experience that Fish does not play a threat before I could get a Trinisphere down on the table.  As such, to play it would only slow myself down and lock me under where I will be trying to shoot out a quick Balance.

What is the deck's experience against Combo with 1 Trinisphere and 4 Chalice of the Void being the only thing standing between them and Tendrils for the win? When I built my Confidant Workshop Aggro deck I found myself needing Chains of Mephistopheles just to have a chance against them game one. Tangle Wire just never impressed me against Combo, I think it's such a dangerous card to trust in.

Hide/Seek looks like it was made for a deck like this, have you tried it?

I really haven't had a lot of difficulty with TPS, typically because even one of those cards (Chalice, Trinisphere, and the three enchantments after boarding) can slow them down significanlty for things like Tangle Wire and Crucible to take effect.  Keep in mind though, that this means being a smart mulliganer(is that even a word?) and making sure you have some early hoser.

For quite a while, I really liked Smokestack. But a few tourneys ago, I started SBing them out against Drain decks because in my experience, Stack cannot get Drained. If it does, you'll most likely lose the game. Then I started SBing them out against fast decks too, because it was too often a dead card. I never knew you stopped playing it till like 2 weeks back, and I decided to give it a go. I cutted them for 3 Tangle Wires and a 2nd Triskelion, and I really liked it. I was already playing with Tops (since like December, Bob Yu suggested them in Staxx, I cutted Thirsts for them and never looked back).

What I dislike about your list is that you cutted Sphere of Resistances. They win me soooooo many games. It is good against basically anything but the mirror, it hates on hate like Rack and Ruin or Flux (because 4 mana is a hell of a lot when your mana is under attack) and it hates on good drawspells like Thirst and even Gifts. Also it is GOD against combo. Sure, they take space, but they sure are worth it.

Also, why is their no Imperial Seal in the deck? Do you dislike it? It finds answers, lockpieces like Trinisphere or Strip Mine or a wincondition. And since you play with Tops, you won't even have to wait for it.

How did you like playing with 4 Welders? Haven't you found it to be one to many? Wouldn't you rather have a 2nd Shaman / Imperial Seal / Jester's Cap / Demonic Consultation?

About the Chokes in the SB; you obviously like them, but do you like them better than In the Eye of Chaos for instance? I found that Eye actually does something against Combo, while Choke just sits there looking pretty. Sure, they are better against Fish, but is that worth it?

I like Fire/Ice, but I'm unsure if it's better than, say, Razormane Masticore or Pyroclasm.

Hugo

You are right about getting SmokeStack drained.  You know Orgasm?  It feels like the opposite of that.

Although I can think of alot of situations where Sphere of Resistance is good, I don't think it is ever as good as the other cards in the deck, so I can't find a place for it.  Even combo can easily play through Sphere. Land, Mox, Mox, Mox.  Next Turn, Rebuild and win.

Imperial Seal is currently in contention for the deck fighting against the previously mentioned Demonic Consultation and Gamble.

Because I often take the Memory Jar out alot of stuff and go broken play I find that 4 Welders is never too many.  Between that and their interaction with Karn/Shaman, and their use with Top, I have always wished I could play 8.

While I agree with you that In the Eye of Chaos is better than Choke against Combo, I find that the interaction of Tangle Wire with Choke gives Choke the advantage.  I have found, though, that in games against Slaver or Gifts, it would be better if I had 2 Choke and 2 In the Eye to side in, so I may split them more evenly in the board which will help a bit agianst Grim Long.

I don't play Pyroclasm because IMHO I can't afford to lose a Welder to a Pyroclasm and I rarely need more than the two damage.  The ability to draw a card in a pinch puts it over the top.  As for Razormane, he is kinda slow.  First you have to get 5 mana, which is basically three if one is Workshop, still puts him at more than Fire/Ice and you have to wait a turn.  You often don't have this luxury.
Logged

RIP Mogg Fanatic...at least you are still better than Fire Bowman!!!

I was once asked on MWS, what the highest I ever finished at a TMD Open was.  I replied, "I've never played in a Waterbury.  I was then called "A TOTAL NOOB!"
Myriad Games
Master of Mountains
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1249

So Many Games - So Little Time - So Start Playing!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2006, 02:21:15 pm »

Gamble's hot!

Seriously, I'm surprised more people don't play Gamble in decks that rely on getting specific cards in hand or in the graveyard. It's inexpensive to cast and unrestricted to boot. While there are better tutors, it seems like Gamble could have its applications.
Logged

Myriad Games
Your Friendly Professional Game Stores
1-888-8MYRIAD
www.MyriadGames.com
www.Facebook.com/MyriadGames
Lunar
Basic User
**
Posts: 535



View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2006, 02:46:59 pm »

I agree...Smokestack is not very good in this list...

But thats about the end of where we agree. I really do like the list, I even had it built quite some time ago for testing and possible play. The deck really just reminds me of the older 7/10 split decks from a while back (which I also played pretty substantially) What I am missing is what this deck has to even do with Stax in the first place, heh...it can maybe be called "Staxless Workshop deck" but "Staxless Stax" just hasnt really done it for me here. I believe it leads to an unfair evaluation of Smokestack as a whole simply because smokestack doesnt fit well with the gameplan as I see it in your deck.

Finding the synergy with the deck as a whole should lead many/most people to see why and how smokestack actually works. Especially when coupled with the other card you are bashing in Sphere of Resistance. Yes true..smokestack does little for the first few turns, however there are a large amount of other cards which are more aimed at Stax's early game for slowing the opponent down.

I simply find that analysis of Smokestack only appropriate in a vacuum with no other cards involved....its almost like saying Tolarian Academy is a bad card because it needs at least 2 artifacts to be better than Island and can be wastelanded and Yawgmoths Will is terrible because the graveyard isnt always really big on turn 1 or 2 and people play yard hate sometimes.

Logged

Dozer - "TMD is not a place where everyone can just post what was revealed to them in their latest wet dream"

Webster - "most of the deck is pimped, like my insane shirt, which exudes a level of pimpness only to be expressed as sublime."
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.074 seconds with 19 queries.