GWS Oath revisited

[Bongo]

Fellow mages,

I'm planning to take a 5 proxy version of GWS Oath to a local tournament this weekend. Since there are a lot of creature-based strategies like EBA, Fish and random aggro, I thought that Oath would be a good choice. Here is what I built:


5 Proxy GWS Oath

Core 7:
4 Oath Of Druids
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

Disruption 12:
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Duress

Search 15:
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Utility 3:
1 Rushing River/Repeal
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth

Mana 23:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
2 City Of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


Now here are my problems:

1) The deck was very inconsistent, I had to mulligan a lot. There were some nigh-unbeatable starting hands, but on the other hand there were quite a few hands I had to throw back. Sensei's Top helps a bit, but still: I keep losing to decks I should beat because of crappy hands and Oaths that show up too late. Is there a way to improve this?

2) Swords, bounce and Extract were a real problem. Most of these cards were accompanied by mana denial and counters, which made them even more problematic. I added Simic Sky Swallower to combat this, but now ran into the problem that the clock would slow down by ~2 turns and sometimes got outraced. While SSS was good (Oathing three times is sometimes necessary), I wish it had Haste or Vigilance. What is the optimal creature base when facing a lot of anti-Oath cards?

3) What kind of Sideboard would be good in a 5-proxy metagame? I just want to beat Fish, EBA, Oath mirror and random aggro, other decks don't show up in meaningful numbers.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[netherspirit]

Moat would be a good way around creature based aggro, I guess you could possibly look into Xantid Swarm for Fish, but that would slow you down even more, and if you want Simic Sky Swallower to have haste you could be a real rebel and add Concordant Crossroads, lol. Hope that helps, nice deck btw!!

[Harlequin]

The more creatures in the board the better.  Ancient Hydra is a personal Favorite of mine for combating Slaver, Fish (and Ichorid) in one card.  You might consider Research // Development as a two of in the main over SSS.  It is instant and it lets you fill your deck with creatures with the oath trigger on the stack.... And most importantly doesn't disrupt your hasty angels.  So for your combo/aggro match ups you do not loose speed, but for your fishy or Welder/Dupe match ups you don't need to scoop.  For a Research Board I would use x2 SSS and x1 Ancient Hydra and possibly x1 Tidespout Tyrant.  That basically gives you all the love you need.  As for the rest of the board.  I would definately be looking at some Pithing Needles.  They are becoming more and more amazing based on the type of hate that fish has been packing lately (EE, Kami of AL, Seal of Cleansing).  Other than than I would definately go with some added bounce, esp Repeal.  Its good for hitting pesky Meddling mages and Chalice for 2 without loss of CA.

If Land Destruction is screwing you, you might think about running Life from the loam, but all in all, it can be too mana intensive.  The other option is to splash white for Sword to Plow, Balance, and Sacred Ground.

[LessThanRight]

I happen to like this version of Oath above the others.  Here's some pointers

1. Don't worry about the muligan.  This deck muligan's better than most.  All you need is Orchard, Mox, Oath, Force, Blue card and you win.  I always muligan aggressively with this deck.  Plus the 4 Impulse/4brainstorm is great for digging out of trouble. 

2. Bring Simic in game two.  He is a house, but you want speed for game one. 

3. As far as beating aggressive decks, be careful of your role.  This version of Oath can be played aggro or control very easily.  If you're playing game two against goblins, try to weather the initial onslaught and then win.  Don't try to race unless you have the perfect starting hand. 

4. Keep in mind all the tricks this deck can pull.  I have won plenty of games off a hardcast Akroma or crop rotation -> strip mine.  In other words, think outside the box. 

5. Mytical Tutor for Time Walk is your friend - I almost always hold mystical in this deck, unless I have no other choice.  Mystical in hand with an active Oath on the table is game over.  Opponents walk into it all the time thinking they have an extra turn to live.

6. Sideboard for an aggressive meta could include some of the following: EE (great in the mirror as well); More bounce (as Harlequin stated); and two of my favorite sideboard options - Life From The Loam and Blazing Archon.  Laugh all you want, but LftL wins the Oath Mirror.  Archon is a surprise that will often give you the extra turns to win.

Above all remember that this is not ICBM Oath, nor is it Chalice Oath.  Those decks play like Drain.dec, control the game long enough to find your win.  GWS plays more like fish.  This deck does not like the long game. 

Hope this helps.  I love this deck, although some times it can be a cruel mistress.  Paper cuts are not fun.

[BreathWeapon]

Where is Chalice of the Void? You have little artifact acceleration, thus Mana Leak is sub optimal. You may as well take advantage of this fact with Chalice of the Void against Combo, Gifts and Slaver rather than lose to them because you don't have a turn one counter.

[Kholdestare]

Hi there,
This is my first post, but I do have some experience with various Oath builds. Some things that I think will improve the deck:

- Simic Sky Swallower should go back to the sideboard. You really need the speed in game one. It's quite possible to create a good Oath list with 2 SSS in the mainboard. However, this deck would look completely different and play much more like control.

- I have never been a supporter of Sensei's Divining Top in Oath. If your meta consists almost exclusively of Fish, Aggro and EBA you don't want to play with dead cards game one because of Null Rod.

- I would rather replace the Tops with Engineered Explosives, as was stated before, since they are very versatile and may save you from an army of spirit tokens, besides being randomly good against aggro.dec.

- If you are having that big problems with allocating an Oath in time, you might want to consider Lim Dul's Vault, too.

- Think about adding a 5th fetchland. You always want to maximize the chance of shuffling your critters away with Brainstorm.

- Moat might be too much a strain on your mana. In my opinion Propaganda would be much more elegant choice, since it pitches to FoW. You should however be prepared for enchantment removal in games 2 and 3. You may even think about adding Propaganda to the mainboard. This card really annoys any aggro deck.

- Chrome Mox is a card that is quite good in unpowered Oath builds. You really want that 1st-turn Oath.

- Chalice of the Void should definitely belong in this deck. But since your meta is mostly aggro, I would put them in the side.

- Another quality card in Oath decks is Regrowth. It can get back a countered Oath or retrieve a Time Walk in the yard right after you oathed.

Just some thoughts.. I hope this will help you.

[Moxlotus]

GWS Oath mulls quite a bit.  That is one of its biggest weaknesses.  However, the deck doesn't need many cards in hand to do what it needs to do--delay your opponent a turn or 2, find Oath, play Oath.

For aggro decks, Thunder Dragon is a favorite of mine.  Sure it delays you a turn, but if you wipe your opponents board then its well worth it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just cut the MD SSS for Spirit of the Night.  You should be able to race aggro anyway, so I usually don't worry about stuff like Thunder Dragon.

[Bongo]

However, the deck doesn't need many cards in hand to do what it needs to do--delay your opponent a turn or 2, find Oath, play Oath.

I did not find this to be true.

Maybe it is splash damage from DSC, but there is a lot of hate against Oath. While Duress+Counters help in this regard, there were often times where I couldn't protect the two lovely ladies. That was the reason I included SSS.


Regarding Chalice: In my metagame, those aren't very useful. I'll put them in the side for the combo matchups.


@Research: What is better, running a 3rd creature maindeck or 2 creatures & 1 Research?

@Mirror Match: Life from the Loam? Wouldn't the Extract plan be more powerful? What is the correct approach to this?

@Regrowth: Has anyone tested this? I see its power, but is it worthy of a maindeck slot?

[LotusHead]

@Regrowth: Has anyone tested this? I see its power, but is it worthy of a maindeck slot?

Our teammate ran Regrowth AND Reclaim in his Oath deck with 1 Top and 1 Repeal.
Laugh all you want, but Regrowthing Oath of Druids, Time Walk Ancestral etc is really strong, as is Reclaiming Ancestral, Repealing a mox/chalice and so forth.  Top is strong.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Just cut the MD SSS for Spirit of the Night.  You should be able to race aggro anyway, so I usually don't worry about stuff like Thunder Dragon.

My sideboard hate against anything with white or shops is 2 SSS in addition to the angels.  It allows you to win through Swords or Cap.

[LessThanRight]

Life From The Loam in the Mirror Match:

Mirror match is all about Forbidden Orchard.  If you can win this battle, you'll win the war.  LftL brings back wasted orchards or wastelands.  It is also a great way to dig for a land when you and your opponent are stalled. 

Creatures:

I think the secondary creatures are very much metagame dependant.  I'm not sure I would even finalize the list until I've taken a look at the tourney room.  In a pretty standard environment (i.e. SCGP9 etc.), Simic is the way to go.  In local meta's where either people are prepared for your deck or you'll likely face random aggro, you might want something tricky to gain an advantage.

[Kholdestare]

@Regrowth: Has anyone tested this? I see its power, but is it worthy of a maindeck slot?

Over here in Germany "RegrOath", as it is called,  has scored some strong results. Here are some links:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=383 (first place)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=333 (first place)

Another Oath list featuring Regrowth has placed 8th at a 81 person tournament in France:

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=60

I admit that these decks are not like GWS Oath, but I think it underlines the fact that Regrowth is a very good card in Oath and therefore worth considering.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the suggestions, keep it coming!

I got two questions:

1) Which maindeck bounce spell is better: Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River?

2) Balance or EE maindeck? With 4 Orchards & 2 Cities, Balance hasn't been difficult to cast it. When it resolves, it is devastating most of the time. Setting it up with Mystical/Vamp/Vault was very strong.


My current Sideboard looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void/Extract - which is better against combo?
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 SSS
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
2 Bounce spells - don't know which are best

[Kholdestare]

I got two questions:

1) Which maindeck bounce spell is better: Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River?

2) Balance or EE maindeck? ...

to 1) I'm not sure about this, but I feel that Rushing River is the preferable choice here. In my testing, casting Chain of Vapor was not that desirable once I got an Oath on the table and even less good when I had some Angels swinging. Echoing Truth is fine but I had some problems with CotV set at 2 (which is a major problem for an Oath player)

to 2) In a meta full of aggro, fish and their friends i would say that balance might be stronger. In a more diversified meta I'd definitely stick with the Explosives. Should you consider to put Tinker/DSC in the side (see below) you have to keep track of your artifact count in the mainboard (since you do not play a full allotment of moxen). EE is a nice Tinker target.

Regarding the sideboard:

I feel CotV is the stronger card. It is just very flexible and powerful if played correctly. Hoping to draw enough Extracts to shut off all the win conditions in Combo doesn't seem to be a good idea (depending on the list, of course).
In my opinion you should add Tinker/DSC to the side. This is vital to dodge Oath hate (in form of Meddling Mage, CotV etc.), besides being a potent tool in the mirror.

[Bongo]

In my opinion you should add Tinker/DSC to the side. This is vital to dodge Oath hate (in form of Meddling Mage, CotV etc.), besides being a potent tool in the mirror.

I only have two artifacts, and two of them are Black Lotus and Lotus Petal.

I could bring in Chalice, but in the matchups where I want Tinker, Chalice is often useless.

[Moxlotus]

1) Which maindeck bounce spell is better: Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River?

Answer D--Repeal.

4 Chalice of the Void/Extract - which is better against combo?

Chalice is better.  Any combo player will have either a Burning Wish or a second Tendrils for game 2.

[Kholdestare]

I only have two artifacts, and two of them are Black Lotus and Lotus Petal.

I could bring in Chalice, but in the matchups where I want Tinker, Chalice is often useless.

Think about Chrome Mox and Mana Crypt. Furthermore it seems that you run Sensei's Divining Top and Engineered Explosives. That makes:

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mana Crypt
2x SDT or EE

That should be enough.

[Tha Gunslinga]

1) Which maindeck bounce spell is better: Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River?

Answer D--Repeal.

Good luck repealing a Tinkered-out DSC.  Rushing River is the best bounce in Oath, and Repeal/Chain of Vapor are the worst.

4 Chalice of the Void/Extract - which is better against combo?

Chalice is better.  Any combo player will have either a Burning Wish or a second Tendrils for game 2.

While I do agree that Chalice is better, I first-turned a guy last weekend because he Windfalled for 6 on turn 1 and drew me into an Extract, which I yanked his one Tendrils with.

[Moxlotus]

Good luck repealing a Tinkered-out DSC.  Rushing River is the best bounce in Oath, and Repeal/Chain of Vapor are the worst.

Depends what you are afraid of.  Repeal is easier to remove a Chalice @2.  Have fun getting 3 mana against Stax--the deck that is the most likely candidate to cast a Chalice @2.

While I do agree that Chalice is better, I first-turned a guy last weekend because he Windfalled for 6 on turn 1 and drew me into an Extract, which I yanked his one Tendrils with.

That just means he had a terrible decklist.

[Implacable]

Good luck repealing a Tinkered-out DSC.  Rushing River is the best bounce in Oath, and Repeal/Chain of Vapor are the worst.

Depends what you are afraid of.  Repeal is easier to remove a Chalice @2.  Have fun getting 3 mana against Stax--the deck that is the most likely candidate to cast a Chalice @2.

While I do agree that Chalice is better, I first-turned a guy last weekend because he Windfalled for 6 on turn 1 and drew me into an Extract, which I yanked his one Tendrils with.

That just means he had a terrible decklist.

Umm...  Not really?  The majority of GrimLong, as far as I can see, still doesn't run Burning Wish, and I've never seen anybody with more than one Tendrils.  Unless you want to go for the Mind's Desire+Time Walk+Timetwister+Regrowth+ESG plan, which is the worst win condition ever, Extract=Win.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I have 3 mana against Stax all the time; that's how I kill them with my Energy Fluxes.  First turn play a fetch and a Mox, turn 2 play a land and drop the Flux.

[Pitlord]

I have to agree with the gunslinga on this one. Rushing river is probably the best bounce available to oath. It does cost more to remove chalice at 2, but actually getting the mana to cast it against stax isn't as hard as it seems. Unless stax can get a turn 1-2 strip lock, or quick tangle wire or stack into other locks, 3 mana is doable, although probably the most you can get easily.

Rushing river is also better because it can actually deal with threats that hit the board. Repealing anything other than a chalice or mox is somewhat difficult, especially without drain mana. River hits chalice, and another threat at the time. Repeal hits only chalice for the most part, and it cantrips. I would rather win the game than cantrip.

[Moxlotus]

I have 3 mana against Stax all the time; that's how I kill them with my Energy Fluxes.  First turn play a fetch and a Mox, turn 2 play a land and drop the Flux.

Are you always on the play?  Do they never have turn 1 Chalice or SoR or trinisphere when you are on the draw?  Do they never play tanglewire if you are on the play?

[M.Solymossy]

You forget, Oath always draws the nuts.

[Tha Gunslinga]

That would explain why I went 2-3 at Minnesota, right?

Are you always on the play?  Do they never have turn 1 Chalice or SoR or trinisphere when you are on the draw?  Do they never play tanglewire if you are on the play?

Turn 1 Chalice almost never happens; they usually save it up for, you know, Chalice at 2, which is basically irrelevant but Stax players don't understand that.  Sphere hurts barely; I just go "Land, Mox, go" then drop things a little slower.  Trini hurts, but they have as much of a shot at Shop, Trini as I do at Land, Mox, Oath on the play.  I do lose to Trini when it's backed up by lock pieces, but gee, that tends to be the rule.  I haven't run across Stax with Wires in it in months; are people still playing that?

My general experience with Stax is that they either can't back up their lock pieces with a win and eventually die, or they walk into the Flux and die miserably, or they just curve me out beautifully and crush me.

[zulander]

Hey bongo, can you edit your OP with the list you're using now so I don't recomend changes you've already made

[Bongo]

Is Repeal still strong enough when Chalice is a non-factor?
There most troublesome permanents for me are Meddling Mages and DSC. 

@Tinker: That was a typo, I do run 7 artifacts, albeit 2 of them are Black Lotus and Petal. I don't think 5 permanent artifacts are enough to cast Tinker reliably.


My sideboard looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 SSS
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Life from the Loam
1 Echoing Truth
 
What cards do you side OUT against Fish and EBA?


EDIT: Decklist in the original post edited.

[Kholdestare]

What cards do you side OUT against Fish and EBA?

Looking at your sideboard i think you would definitely want to bring in the following:

2x Engineered Explosives
2x SSS
and maybe:
2x Propaganda
1x Echoing Truth
1x Ancient Hydra

The EE and SSS are quite obvious. Side out your Angels and Sensei's Divining Tops. Propaganda should stay in the side, except you encounter some very aggressive builds of Fish or EBA. I would then replace two Impulses with Propagandas. Echoing Truth provides another solution against annoying Meddling Mages... you might want to cut Crop Rotation for it, since Fish and EBA pack a lot of counters. Personally I'm not a fan of Ancient Hydra because it delays your kill even further. Should you decide to bring it in, cut one Duress or the Regrowth.

Regarding the "Repeal or Rushing River question"... If Meddling Mages and DSC are of much concern to you it's probably better to run Rushing River.

Your mainboard looks quite good to me. However I think you should try out Chrome Mox. I found it to be a very powerful card in partially powered Oath builds.

[zulander]

Is Repeal still strong enough when Chalice is a non-factor?
There most troublesome permanents for me are Meddling Mages and DSC. 

@Tinker: That was a typo, I do run 7 artifacts, albeit 2 of them are Black Lotus and Petal. I don't think 5 permanent artifacts are enough to cast Tinker reliably.


My sideboard looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Explosives
2 SSS
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Life from the Loam
1 Echoing Truth
 
What cards do you side OUT against Fish and EBA?


EDIT: Decklist in the original post edited.

Side out sensei's , in fact, I'm not so sure it's a better card than null rod in oath. Just my opinion though.