Stifle in Control Slaver?

[NULLROD]

I've been tinkering around with a CS deck recently with the inclusion of stifle. Stifle seems to be very powerful-- let's see some of the few things it stops:

1) Storm combo
2) Mindslaver
3) Tormod's crypt
4) Goblin welder activation
5) Memory jar activation
6) Fetchlands
7) Wastelands/strip mine
8) Opposing library for a turn
9) Opposing bob for a turn
10) Drain mana
11) Oath activations
12) Smokestack saccing for a turn
12) Tangle Wire tapping for a turn
13) Duplicant
14) Sundering Titan
15) Seal of Cleansing

and so much more.

and many more..

However, my question is, does stifle really belong in this deck? In a deck where survival is the goal, is stifle more of a tempo card or a threat? Sometimes, stopping a first-turn fetch will win the game on its own, but the real problems come from replacing other crucial cards with stifle. I've cut fof, e truth, a welder, and a slaver for 4x stifle. What does everyone think about this situation?

Sometimes, having a stifle in your hand really makes a difference. While they are off FOWing your stifle in response to their fetchland, you have already gained an advantage. Sometimes, it is good having one when grim long is going off. In addition to the counters you already run, you have yet another way to deal with the threat of storm. In a metagame with so many activated and triggered abilities, the ability to stop some of these threats can be enough to tilt the game completely in your favor.

Here is my decklist for reference:

Maindeck:


4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Goblin Welder
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Stifle

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

1 Memory Jar
1 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Triskelion
1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island

Sideboard:

1 Echoing Truth
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sundering Titan
1 Stifle
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Claws of Gix
1 Fire/Ice
1 Chain of Vapor

[Combotogs]

I will say that stifle doesn't sound bad.

This post doesn't actually say anything.  I'm not going to issue a warning for it, but try to make sure your posts have substance in the future.
- Kowal[/color]

[Pitlord]

Stifle isn't a terrible card, and it is very dependent on your meta. Stifle can randomly win the game for you, but the instances that happens are very rare. Most of the time stifle is simply a tempo boost, which can be a big deal to a deck like slaver which takes a while to set up. Deciding to drop a few bombs for an early game tempo boost seems OK, but I don't think that it should be used in every meta.

In my opinion slaver could get away with main-boarding stifle if they see lots of combo, slaver, and possibly could be used against prison decks. Stifling something as simple as a welder activation or slaver activation in the mirror, or even an early fetchland to get a time walk for U.

I think that overall stifle seems like a pretty logical inclusion if you prefer to drop a few of the bombs from the notoriously mana-hungry deck for a bit of early tempo. The stratagy may be a little counter-productive in practice, but the theory seems solid.

[Kowal]

I believe Pitlord is a bit confused here.

Taking advantage of tempo with cards like Stifle works best in a tempo oriented deck, such as fish.  It doesn't hurt that decks like fish also pack a great deal of mana-based disruption, making Stifle on a fetchland excessively deadly in addition to being, as NULLROD pointed out, fairly versatile in terms of answering threats.

Decks like Control Slaver have a very difficult time taking advantage of this sort of tempo.  Being able to use it in a useful way is uncommon, and without a mana denial component to the deck stifling a fetchland will usually be downright awful.  The cards you sacrifice for this occasionally very swingy component weaken your deck considerably.  You've given up your maindeck solution to threats like Null Rod or even a fat man.  You claim to have dropped a welder, but you're running four in the list you presented which is already more than most people.  You also cut a huge part of your engine in a Mindslaver.  This may appear to not be such a big deal, but factor in the following:
1) Casting Mindslaver at the time it's most useful is not particularly outrageous or difficult
2) A large part of your game plan is Welder + Thirst for Knowledge, and you've hampered your chances of getting that assembled
3) You've nerfed your artifact count which makes Thirst slightly worse
Lastly, you've cut a draw spell.  While I strongly, strongly disagree with the choice of Fact or Fiction in of itself, you've still cut draw to fit in an effect that isn't half as relevant in a tight control game.  It will also not pull you out of bad scenerios against aggro/aggro control, nor will it remove problematic threats.  To be honest, the greatest argument for running Stifle is against Grimlong, which is actually still a pretty poor choice given the games that Grimlong wins, it wins via Duressing your answers or swinging with Xantid Swarm.  This is why most of the upper tier Control Slaver players use board-based combo hate, and the ones that don't run pro-active things like Duress.

If you're seeking to get a more tempo-friendly card to make your Control Slaver mana curve run better, I suggest doing what we did and just put Night's Whisper in your deck.  For reference, here is the maindeck I've been running for about two months now.


4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth

3 Night's Whisper
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Goblin Welder

2 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island


Given your sideboard, it looks like you're fearing Oath and Stax pretty hard.  Stalling them for a turn will not beat them, so instead I would suggest you keep your removal high and solid.  Put the Echoing Truth back in your maindeck, and start boarding Rushing River.  It's very good against Oath and all but forces them to board in to the Simic Sky Swallower plan, which should be slow enough for you to go off with a Memory Jar activation.

[Tha Gunslinga]

It's very good against Oath and all but forces them to board in to the Simic Sky Swallower plan, which should be slow enough for you to go off with a Memory Jar activation.

Sky Swallowers only take one more turn to kill than the Angels; while they look a lot slower, they really aren't much slower.

[Pitlord]

Kowal is right in his analysis and I would trust his judgement much more than mine because of his experience with the deck. As I said in the last line of my post, the idea seemed ok, IN THEORY. In practice though, it is severly weak because the times that sifle will randomly win you the game are much fewer than times where simply playing lots of draw and using traditional slaver technique will win you the game.

Night's whisper however, seems like a pretty good inclusion, because drawing more card lets you hit more mana and reach the part of your curve you need to hit.

BTW, I agree with Kowal that there are quite a few flaws with the list, but decided to stay strictly on the topic of theoretically playing stifle and generally try to avoid commenting on lists in discussion posts.