Expansions dissected

[Gabethebabe]

People like to talk about the extremes. What is the best card, what is the best creature, what is the best magic expansion. What is the worst? Well, I´m going to try and show you expansions. From the Vintage point of view.
If you want to compare things, you need a model. A simple model, preferably, which makes it easy to compare things and does not allow for a large portion of subjectivity. To dissect the Magic expansions I´ve used the following model:
Create five categories. Put all cards in either of these categories. Assign points to these categories and sum them for all expansions.

Cat. 1 (3 points)
- Restricted cards

Cat. 2 (3 points)
- Vintage staples

Cat. 3 (2 points)
- Vintage playable cards
- Staples in the sideboard

Cat. 4 (1 points)
- Vintage hardly playable cards
- Playable sideboard cards
- Cards that were important once in T1 (points assigned for “the good old times”)

Cat.5 (0 points)
- Unplayable stuff

The only cards that count are those that originally were printed in the set. Reprints don´t count, so e.g. Brainstorm adds 3 points to Ice Age, not to Mercadian Masques. Pure reprint sets, like the basic sets from revised to ninth, are therefore not included in the analysis. They didn´t bring anything new to Vintage.

I´m sure people will question the model and I´m sure people will disagree with cards (not) being on the list or points assigned to them. Where´s the limit between a staple, a playable card and a hardly playable card ? Well subjectivity can not be avoided in this model. For a truly objective model you´d have to make a Dr. Sylvan analysis of all T1 tournaments in the last 13 years and count the played cards. Good luck.

But the general classification I think you can agree with and probably is something that you´ve already known for years.

So here´s the list (updated 08-08-06)

Expansions dissected by Gabethebabe 1.11 (or: how to waste you time 1.11).

1. Alpha/Beta/Unlimited - 96 points
Cat. 1: Ancestral Recall, Balance, Black Lotus, Black Vise, Channel, Demonic Tutor, Fastbond, Mana Vault, Mind Twist, Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Regrowth, Sol Ring, Time Walk, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune
Cat. 2: Dark Ritual, Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Tundra, Swords to Plowshares
Cat. 3: Taiga, Bayou, Red Elemental Blast, Juggernaut, Animate Dead
Cat. 4: Berserk, Blue Elemental Blast, Disenchant, Hypnotic Specter, Illusionary Mask, Sinkhole, Time Vault, Plateau, Badlands, Savannah, Scrubland

2. Urza´s Saga - 31 points
Cat. 1: Time Spiral, Tolarian Academy, Voltaic Key, Windfall, Yawgmoth´s Will
Cat. 2: Duress
Cat. 3: Smokestack, Karn Silver Golem, Goblin Lackey, Arcane Laboratory
Cat. 4: Morphling, Annul, Back to Basics, Ill-Gotten Gains, Planar Void, Stroke of Genius, Gilded Drake

3. Urza´s Legacy - 26 points
Cat. 1: Crop Rotation, Frantic Search, Grim Monolith, Memory Jar, Tinker
Cat. 2: Goblin Welder
Cat. 3: Rebuild, Rack and Ruin
Cat. 4: Cloud of Faeries, Defense Grid, Engineered Plague, Viashino Heretic

4. Onslaught - 21 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Chain of Vapor
Cat. 3: Wooded Foothills, Bloodstained Mire, Windswept Heath, Goblin Piledriver
Cat. 4: Naturalize, Exalted Angel, Future Sight, Read the Runes

5. Mirrodin - 20 points
Cat. 1: Chrome Mox
Cat. 2: Chalice of the Void, Thirst for Knowledge, Mindslaver
Cat. 3: Goblin Charbelcher, Duplicant
Cat. 4: Isochron Scepter, Pentavus, Platinum Angel, Spoils of the Vault

6-7. Darksteel - 18 points
Cat. 1: Trinisphere
Cat. 2: Darksteel Colossus
Cat. 3: Oxidize, Echoing Truth, Sundering Titan, Darksteel Citadel
Cat. 4: Aether Vial, Arcbound Ravager, Sword of Fire and Ice, Skullclamp

6-7. Odyssey - 18 points
Cat. 1: Entomb
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Psychatog, Recoup, Wild Mongrel
Cat. 4: Extract, Standstill, Coffin Purge, Battle of Wits, Barbarian Ring, Skeletal Scrying, Zombie Infestation, Nimble Mongoose, Careful Study

8. Ice Age - 17 points
Cat. 1: Demonic Consultation, Necropotence
Cat. 2: Brainstorm
Cat. 3: Jester´s Cap, Pyroclasm
Cat. 4: Ashen Ghoul, Illusions of Grandeur, Pyroblast, Dance of the Dead

9-10. Scourge - 16 points
Cat. 1: Mind´s Desire
Cat. 2: Tendrils of Agony, Stifle
Cat. 3: Xantid Swarm
Cat. 4: Brain Freeze, Decree of Justice, Form of the Dragon, Goblin Warchief, Pyrostatic Pillar

9-10. Tempest - 16 points
Cat. 1: Lotus Petal
Cat. 2: Wasteland, Intuition
Cat. 3: Choke, Ancient Tomb
Cat. 4: Verdant Force, Root Maze, Capsize

11-12. Antiquities - 15 points
Cat. 1: Strip Mine
Cat. 2: Mishra´s Workshop, Mishra´s Factory
Cat. 3: Triskelion, Energy Flux, Hurkyll´s Recall
Cat. 4: -

11-12. Ravnica - 15 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Dark Confidant
Cat. 3: Darkblast, Dimir Cutpurse, Life from the Loam, Vinelasher Kudzu
Cat. 4: Bottled Cloister, Razia Boros Archangel, Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp

13. Judgment - 14 points
Cat. 1: Burning Wish
Cat. 2: Worldgorger Dragon
Cat. 3: Cunning Wish, Cabal Therapy
Cat. 4: Lava Dart, Living Wish, Wonder, Ray of Revelation

14-16. Mercadian Masques - 13 points
Cat. 1: Gush
Cat. 2: Misdirection
Cat. 3: Food Chain, Land Grant, Squee Goblin Nabob
Cat. 4: Unmask

14-16. Fifth Dawn - 13 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Crucible of Worlds
Cat. 3: Engineered Explosives, Auriok Salvagers
Cat. 4: Eternal Witness, Night's Whisper, Razormane Masticore, Staff of Domination, Eon Hub, Trinket Mage

14-16. Arabian Nights - 13 points
Cat. 1: Library of Alexandria
Cat. 2: Bazaar of Baghdad, City of Brass
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Flying Men, Kird Ape, Old Man of the Sea, Juzam Djinn

17-18. Mirage - 12 points
Cat. 1: Enlightened Tutor, Lion´s Eye Diamond, Mystical Tutor
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Infernal Contract, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Spirit of the Night

17-18. Stronghold - 12 points
Cat. 1: Dream Halls, Mox Diamond
Cat. 2: Mana Leak
Cat. 3: Sacred Ground
Cat. 4: Volrath's Shapeshifter

19-20. Nemesis - 11 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Accumulated Knowledge, Tangle Wire
Cat. 3: Daze, Massacre
Cat. 4: Seal of Cleansing

19-20. Urza´s Destiny - 11 points
Cat. 1: Yawgmoth´s Bargain
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Metalworker, Phyrexian Negator
Cat. 4: Academy Rector, Donate, Replenish, Powder Keg

21-23. Portal - 10 points
Cat. 1: Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor
Cat. 2: Grim Tutor
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Cruel Bargain

21-23. Champions of Kamigawa - 10 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Gifts Ungiven
Cat. 3: Forbidden Orchard, Sensei’s Divining Top, Uba Mask
Cat. 4: Isamaru Hound of Konda

21-23. Weatherlight - 10 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Null Rod, Gemstone Mine
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Doomsday, Ophidian, Gaea's Blessing, Phyrexian Furnace

24-25. Legends - 9 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Mana Drain
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Chains of Mephistopheles, Land Tax, Nether Void, Moat, The Abyss, In the Eye of Chaos

24-25. Exodus - 9 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Oath of Druids
Cat. 3: City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance
Cat. 4: Survival of the Fittest, Curiosity

26-27. Alliances - 8 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Force of Will, Gorilla Shaman
Cat. 3: Elvish Spirit Guide
Cat. 4: -

26-27. Torment - 8 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Deep Analysis, Cabal Ritual
Cat. 4: Ichorid, Nantuko Shade, Grim Lavamancer, Putrid Imp

28-30. Saviors of Kamigawa - 7 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Pithing Needle
Cat. 3: Erayo Soratami Ascendant, Kataki War’s Wage
Cat. 4: -

28-30. Planeshift - 7 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Meddling Mage
Cat. 3: Rushing River
Cat. 4: Orim´s Chant, Quirion Dryad

28-30. Visions - 7 points
Cat. 1: Vampiric Tutor
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Impulse
Cat. 4: Necromancy, Goblin Recruiter

31. Legions - 6 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Withered Wretch
Cat. 4: Akroma Angel of Wrath, Caller of the Claw, Gempalm Incinerator, Phage the Untouchable

32-34. Guildpact - 5 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Leyline of the Void
Cat. 4: Izzet Guildmage, Shattering Spree, Repeal

32-34. The Dark - 5 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Tormod´s Crypt, Blood Moon
Cat. 4: Maze of Ith

32-34. Invasion - 5 points
Cat. 1: Fact or Fiction
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Chromatic Sphere, Artefact Mutation

35-37. Coldsnap - 4 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Counterbalance, Jotün Grunt
Cat. 4: -

35-37. Apocalypse - 4 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Fire/Ice
Cat. 4: Pernicious Deed, Goblin Ringleader

35-37. Betrayers of Kamigawa - 4 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Ninja of the Deep Hours, Umezawa´s Jitte
Cat. 4: -

38-41. Promo - 3 points
Cat. 1: Mana Crypt
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: -

38-41. Fallen Empires - 3 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Hymn to Tourach, High Tide, Icatian Javelineers

38-41. Homelands - 3 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: Merchant Scroll
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: -

38-41. Dissension - 3 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Infernal Tutor, Ghost Quarter, Hide/Seek

42. Prophecy - 1 point
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Spiketail Hatchling

[seer]

I would hesitate to put Counterbalance in category 3 as of yet. Besides that it's a great list! I think it is interesting that Legends only has 9 points considering it used to be considered the best set in magic (like in 1994). You should put in Mirror Universe for old times sake!

[Btown]

This is a very interesting post Gabe, and I'd imagine time consuming as well!  I can throw a few border-line cards at you and let the debate begin!

Torment - Category 3 - Putrid Imp - Potentially deserving of a spot on the list for it's role in ichorid.

Coldsnap - Category 3 - Perilous Research - Currently unplayed due to legality, but will almost forsuredly see extensive vintage play over the years.  However, research could take the spot of the grunt, as I am not sure its role in type one.  Care to explain?

Ryan

[Imsomniac101]

7-8. Odyssey - 17 points
Cat. 1: Entomb
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Psychatog, Recoup, Wild Mongrel
Cat. 4: Extract, Standstill, Coffin Purge, Battle of Wits, Barbarian Ring, Skeletal Scrying, Zombie Infestation, Nimble Mongoose

I'm quite sure Recoup is on the Restricted list. And I absolutely challenge categorising the cards in Cat. 4 as they are. Half of them should be in Cat. 3.

Otherwise, I commend the effort, although I am not sure what can be achieved from this.

[T00L]

Recoup is most definitely not restricted.

I don't think counterbalance should be on the list as of yet. I know people are trying to break the card but it is unbroken as of yet.

Torment - Category 3 - Putrid Imp - Potentially deserving of a spot on the list for it's role in ichorid.

Coldsnap - Category 3 - Perilous Research - Currently unplayed due to legality, but will almost forsuredly see extensive vintage play over the years.  However, research could take the spot of the grunt, as I am not sure its role in type one.  Care to explain

I also agree Putrid Imp should probably be on the list somewhere for its role in ichorid. However i'll have to disagree about Perilous Research I find the card completely Unplayable.

[Illissius]

Cool. Did you review the spoilers of every set, or the cards used in every recent Vintage decklist you could find? Either way, sounds like a ton of effort. Good job.
It seems the actual vintage card pool is pretty small.

[Liam-K]

Oath stuff seems a little undervalued, especially orchard.

disrupting sceptre!  keeper lived and died by that thing when there were no other decks
except the one that played price of progress.  Does it get 1 point?

I don't think hide/seek or infernal tutor deserve mention.

fun thread

[Grand Inquisitor]

Great work Gabe.  I think these types of threads are really interesting, and, I would hope, really valuable to new players.

I think the grouping by expansion is great for casual discussion, and it both allows new players to know where to find cards, while giving a sort of history to the format.  However, I think a tangential point that should definitely be discussed here is the card pool of playable Vintage cards.  As you mentioned, this is one of the most subjective aspects of this analysis, but that doesn't mean we can't generate a good discussion around it.

For example, when I looked at your list, I thought the model was great, but that there were a large number of cards left out.  I track card pool by a completely different method: collecting t8 decklists.  There's obviuosly a number of flaws with this (scrubby metagames, people's lack of access to the best cards, etc), but I found it allows the most inclusive means of defining the workable card pool outside of my own opinion in going through every card.

Here's what I found by comparing our respective lists:

First, the gems that I've missed-

Academy Rector
 Battle of Wits
 Cruel Bargain
 Curiosity
 Dream Halls
 Flying Men
 High Tide
 Hypnotic Specter
 Illusions of Grandeur
 Infernal Contract
 Infernal Tutor
 Isochron Scepter
 Land Tax
 Moat
 Nether Void
 Night's Whisper
 Personal Tutor
 Replenish
 Sinkhole
 Spoils of the Vault
 Voltaic Key

There's a number of commonly played cards that I didn't pick up, just because of the sample of t8 lists I happen to pull from.

On the other side are the cards I've picked up that either by neglect or by choice, failed to make your list (I've bolded these to try to generate some further discussion)-

Abeyance
Abolish
Absolute Law
Acquire
Æther Spellbomb
Ambassador Laquatus
Ancestor’s Chosen
Ancient Hydra
Angelic Shield
Anger
Ankh of Mishra
Aquamoeba
Arcbound Crusher
Arcbound Worker
Argothian Wurm
Artificer's Intuition
Aura Fracture
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Basking Rootwalla
Beacon of Destruction
Birds of Paradise
Blazing Archon
Blinkmoth Nexus
Bone Shredder
Boomerang
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Bosh, Iron Golem
Bribery
Capsize
Careful Study
Carnophage
Carpet of Flowers
Cephalid Coliseum
Chainer's Edicts
Chill
Circular Logic
Claws of Gix
Compulsion
Conjurer's Bauble
Contamination
Control Magic
Coretapper
Corpse Dance
Counterspell
Cranial extraction
Cranial Plating
Crookshank Kobolds
Crypt Rats
Crystal Vein
Culling the Weak
Damping Matrix
Dandan
Darksteel Ingot
Dauthi Slayer
Death Spark
Decree of Pain
Devout Witness
Diabolic Edict
Dismantling Blow
Disrupt
Disrupting Shoal
Dominate
Ebony Charm
Echoing Decay
Echoing Ruin
Elvish Lyrist
Elvish Scrapper
Elvish Spirit Guide
Emerald Charm
Ensnare
Ensnaring Bridge
Erase
Exploration
Eye of Nowhere
Firestorm
Flame Fussilade
Flametongue Kavu
Flash Counter
Flesh Reaver
Fling
Forbid
Fractured Loyalty
Frogmite
Genesis
Genesis Chamber
Gilded Lotus
Glacial Chasm
Glimmer Void
Glissa Sunseeker
Goblin Bombardement
Goblin Cannon
Goblin Goon
Goblin Grenade
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Sharpshooter
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Vandal
Grafted Skullcap
Granite Shard
Grayscaled Gharial
Ground Seal
Haunting Echoes
Heart Kami
Helm of Awakening
Hermit Druid
Hidden Guerillas
Hideous laughter
Horn of Greed
Hoverguard Sweepers
Hydroblast
Ifh-Biff Efreet
Iridescent Angel
Jungle Lion
Kami of Ancient Law
Karakas
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kobolds of Kher Keep
Kodama of the North Tree
Krosan Reclamation
Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Last Gasp
Legacy's allure
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Greaves
Lim Dul's Vault
Llanowar Wastes
Lodestone Myr
Lonely Sandbar
Lord of atlantis
Magma Jet
Mana Maze
Mana Severance
Manta Riders
March of the machines
Masticore
Meditate
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Meltdown
Memnarch
Mental Note
Mesmeric Fiend
Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
Mind's Eye
Mistblade Shinobi
Mogg Fanatic
Mogg Salvage
Moments Peace
Monkey Cage
Muddle the Mixture
Myr Retreiver
Myr Servitor
Mystic Remora
Nevinyrral's Disk
Nezumi Graverobber
Night of Souls Betrayal
Orb of Dreams
Overload
Perplex
Phantom Nishoba
Plated Slagwurm
Political Trickery
Possessed Portal
Price of Glory
Primitive Justice
Pristine Angel
Propaganda
Psionic Blast
Pulverize
Putrefy
Putrid Imp
Pyrite Spellbomb
Quiet Speculation
Quirion Ranger
Rancor
Ray of Revelation
Remand
Riftstone Portal
Rolling Earthquake
Rootwater Theif
Rule Of Law
Rushing River
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Sarcomancy
Savannah Lions
Seat of the Synod
Seedtime
Serenity
Serrated Arrows
Serum Visions
Shadow of Doubt
Shattering Pulse
Shivan Hellkite
Shivan Reef
Shred Memory
Siege Gang Commander
Sigil of Sleep
Silent Arbiter
Silver Knight
Skirk Prospector
Sliver Queen
Smother
Snap
Snuff Out
Solemn Simulacrum
Spawning Pit
Starstorm
Stoneshaker Shaman
Stormscape Apprentice
Su Chi
Sulfuric Vortex
Sylvan Safekeeper
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tainted Pact
Tarnished Citadel
Tendo Ice Bridge
Terror
Threaten
Thunder Dragon
Tidal warrior
Tolarian Winds
Trade Routes
True Believer
Tsabo's Web
Turbulent Dreams
Twin Cast
Uktabi Orangutan
Undiscovered Paradise
Unsummon
Vault of Whispers
Viashino Heretic
Vindicate
Viridian Shaman
Viridian Zealot
Voidmage Prodigy
Volcanic Spray
Waterfront Bouncer
Watery Grave
Weathered Wayfarer
Well of Knowledge
Werebear
Whipcorder
Withered Wretch
Yavimaya Coast
Zuran Orb

Granted, a few of these probably won't see play again outside of the one time I caught them, and still others have been surpassed by more recent printings.  However, there's a large number of very playable cards that I feel should be included in your expansion comparison, and more importantly, should be considered as part of the T1 playable card pool.

More than anything, I'm hoping discussion here will show that subjectivity is a good thing.  Metagames and the players that compose them are quite diverse.  De facto claims that Keeper is the best deck, or that you should only play one or four of a card when constructing lists are not helpful to the dynamism of the format, no matter how well intentioned or strongly reasoned they are at the time.  It's experiences like getting thrashed by cards like Fractured Loyalty, or running into a tightly played Bomberman opponent that keep me on my toes...and keep me interested in playing T1.

[Implacable]

Honestly, GI, it seems like a lot of the cards on that list do not even fit into Gabe's Cat 4.  I mean...  Whipcorder?  Painlands?  Elvish Lyrist?  I don't have the time to go through it, but it seems like at least half of those cards are totally unplayable in competitive Vintage.

[RezDawg]

In the days of The Deck you had the orginial zoo deck that tried to beat it with:
 bolts
 lions
 apes
 psionic blasts

And how can you forget the orginal beat stick

Juzam

[CrashTest]

Really nice post, I enjoyed reading the list!

       I guess A/B/U Is and always will be the backbone of Vintage, but some sets like Urza's Saga or Legacy can also be surprisingly good and change the format.

[Grand Inquisitor]

totally unplayable in competitive Vintage

I think it's very easy to say something like this without having any understanding of what we're really talking about.

If by competitive vintage, you mean the top 4-7 decks that 50% of people play, then I agree with you.  If instead, you consider that Kird Ape almost t8'd a SCG with white weenie, that shivan reef was prominent in URStax which dominated the european metagame for months, and that, like I mentioned, all of these cards were featured in lists that t8'd at a competitive vintage tournament, then I'm going to disagree.

How many people really thought twice about Vinelash Kudzu until last week.  Ask what Rich Meist's definition of competitive vintage playable cards are, and we all might learn something.

[Implacable]

totally unplayable in competitive Vintage

I think it's very easy to say something like this without having any understanding of what we're really talking about.

If by competitive vintage, you mean the top 4-7 decks that 50% of people play, then I agree with you.  If instead, you consider that Kird Ape almost t8'd a SCG with white weenie, that shivan reef was prominent in URStax which dominated the european metagame for months, and that, like I mentioned, all of these cards were featured in lists that t8'd at a competitive vintage tournament, then I'm going to disagree.

How many people really thought twice about Vinelash Kudzu until last week.  Ask what Rich Meist's definition of competitive vintage playable cards are, and we all might learn something.

You misunderstand me.  What I'm saying is that there are cards on that list that are strictly inferior.  Shivan Reef?  It's totally outclassed by both Volcanic Island and by Steamvents; if you're running more than 8 U/R lands, you have a problem.  Eye of Nowhere?  Boomerang, Capsize, and Repeal are all far better as bounce spells, unless you're playing T2 Vore.  Last Gasp?  Do I even have to list the superior removal cards?  It seems like what you did was go through and list all of the cards that are played in all the decks in every format and call them all good in T1.  That doesn't make sense.

[Machinus]

A really interesting (and time consuming) analysis would be to see how this list changed as Vintage evolved over the years. I think you would find that recent sets continously displace older ones, and that the exceptions to this rule are the truly defining expansions. I wouldn't count ABU either, since they are obvious and their power level is just incomparable to the rest (and they aren't "expansions").

[unknown.root]

amazing list, i think this should stay updated and players should debate certain cards. some newer cards i believe shouldn't be added till someone PROVES thier value in tournaments.

Kevin

[Komatteru]

I would also agree that ESG needs to be very high on the list.  It goes in and out of Long lists, and is a staple in Belcher (obv).  I'd call it a Vintage staple, actually, since it probably finds its way into decks as often as Gorilla Shaman does (or pretty close).

[Yare]

I'm not sure that I agree with all the assessments in terms of power level, but a very interesting and ambitious analysis.  Well done!

Goblin Ringleader is misclassified under Planeshift; he came from Apocalypse.

[FlamingCloud]

Some stuff I thought of when looking at the list

I think these category 3 cards should be category 2.
Smokestack (Seriously I know it has been hated on the tmd boards lately but this is disrespestful =P)
Forbidden Orchard (should be same as oath)
Cabal Ritual

And These should be category 3

Accumulated Knowledge (There are so many better cards in category 3 then this, which is almost a useless relic)
Cabal Therapy
Ichorid (cat 4?? and cabal in cat 2? cabal is barely even played at all outside of ichorid)
Pithing Needle (Mostly a sideboard card, and there are better half sideboard cards, such as tormod's crpyt in cat 3)

These should be moved to 4

Ancient Tomb (If not removed from the list entirely..)
Counterbalance

[freakish777]

I don't think points for cards on the restricted list should count.

Points for whether or not the card is played or not should suffice.

Would Dream Halls be any good if it weren't restricted?  Some people would say yes, some would say no.  The issue though isn't whether it's good or not if it weren't restricted.  For all intents and purposes Dream Halls is banned in T1, no one plays it.  No one is going to play it in competitive Vintage as a 1 of any time soon.  With this in mind I think we can say for arguments sake that Stronghold did not give us a restricted card called Dream Halls, it gave us another ante card.  Thus Dream Halls should not count towards that list.  There are a small number of cards on the restricted list that could simply be too powerful as 4 ofs in a deck.  The problem is though that having only 1 makes it unplayable (as its a combo card) and thus it may as well have been banned.

[Illissius]

It depends on whether the list is scoring expansions' impact on Vintage, or the number of currently playable cards they contribute to it. In the former case, lots of points for restricted cards is definitely correct -- the impact was so large that it had to be restricted.

[sa17dk]

Some stuff I thought of when looking at the list

I think these category 3 cards should be category 2.
Smokestack (Seriously I know it has been hated on the tmd boards lately but this is disrespestful =P)
Forbidden Orchard (should be same as oath)
Cabal Ritual

I disagree.

Category 2 cards are vintage STAPLES. Smokestack is NOT a staple at all. It isnt played in any deck out of Stax, and most of the time isnt even played IN Stax either. Forbidden Orchard and Oath are not staples. Not all decks should play Orchard, and not all decks that support green should play Oath.

Cabal Ritual is arguable because of its strong presence in modern non-Gifts storm combo decks.

I think you misunderstood the definition of a staple.

[warwizard87]

Anycard that decks are built around should probly not be cat 4 but cat 3, ichorid hardly playable...AKROMA wth..

34-36. Legions - 4 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: -
Cat. 4: Akroma Angel of Wrath, Caller of the Claw, Gempalm Incinerator, Phage the Untouchable

34-36. Coldsnap - 4 points
Cat. 1: -
Cat. 2: -
Cat. 3: Counterbalance, Jotün Grunt

Am i the only one that sees problems with that? Akroma is vauled LESS then a Grunt or the untested counterbalance....

[Philatio]

totally unplayable in competitive Vintage

I think it's very easy to say something like this without having any understanding of what we're really talking about.

If by competitive vintage, you mean the top 4-7 decks that 50% of people play, then I agree with you.  If instead, you consider that Kird Ape almost t8'd a SCG with white weenie, that shivan reef was prominent in URStax which dominated the european metagame for months, and that, like I mentioned, all of these cards were featured in lists that t8'd at a competitive vintage tournament, then I'm going to disagree.

How many people really thought twice about Vinelash Kudzu until last week.  Ask what Rich Meist's definition of competitive vintage playable cards are, and we all might learn something.

You misunderstand me.  What I'm saying is that there are cards on that list that are strictly inferior.  Shivan Reef?  It's totally outclassed by both Volcanic Island and by Steamvents; if you're running more than 8 U/R lands, you have a problem.  Eye of Nowhere?  Boomerang, Capsize, and Repeal are all far better as bounce spells, unless you're playing T2 Vore.  Last Gasp?  Do I even have to list the superior removal cards?  It seems like what you did was go through and list all of the cards that are played in all the decks in every format and call them all good in T1.  That doesn't make sense.

The decks that play Shivan Reef typically have Sundering Titan in them, or else turboing one out is a major part of the strategy.  In that case, Volcs aren't strictly superior.  Don't assume they're running 12 dual color lands.

[jcb193]

Personally, I think if a certain card is/has been in a staple deck for an extended amount of time, it is a staple.  If someone were getting into Vintage for the first time and they wanted to sample a few different decks, Smokestack and AK would be on the lists of "recommended singles to pick up."

[Chiz]

If Ghost Quarter and Vinelasher Kudzu is in the list, Aether Spellbomb should absolutly be in it too! I mean, Bomberman has proven itself as a viable deck and Aether Spellbomb is a really important card in the deck. (By the way, if Vinelasher Kudzu is in Cat. 3, I see no reason Trinket mage should be in cat. 4... anyway...)

I agree with GI, there's lots of missing cards. The most obvious one is ESG, that's certaintly a cat. 3 (or maybe cat. 2) card!!

[FlamingCloud]

Some stuff I thought of when looking at the list

I think these category 3 cards should be category 2.
Smokestack (Seriously I know it has been hated on the tmd boards lately but this is disrespestful =P)
Forbidden Orchard (should be same as oath)
Cabal Ritual

I disagree.

Category 2 cards are vintage STAPLES. Smokestack is NOT a staple at all. It isnt played in any deck out of Stax, and most of the time isnt even played IN Stax either. Forbidden Orchard and Oath are not staples. Not all decks should play Orchard, and not all decks that support green should play Oath.

Cabal Ritual is arguable because of its strong presence in modern non-Gifts storm combo decks.

I think you misunderstood the definition of a staple.

I was going by how he made his other ratings.

Tanglewire was in category 2, so smokestack deserves to be there aswell.  Tanglewire isn't played in every stax list.  For example all those uba lists for the longest time had smokestax and no wire.

Oath was in category 2, so forbidden orchard should be there aswell, it is after all more played then oath.

[Liam-K]

You misunderstand me.  What I'm saying is that there are cards on that list that are strictly inferior.  Shivan Reef?  It's totally outclassed by both Volcanic Island and by Steamvents; if you're running more than 8 U/R lands, you have a problem.  Eye of Nowhere?  Boomerang, Capsize, and Repeal are all far better as bounce spells, unless you're playing T2 Vore.  Last Gasp?  Do I even have to list the superior removal cards?  It seems like what you did was go through and list all of the cards that are played in all the decks in every format and call them all good in T1.  That doesn't make sense.

Eye of Nowhere is a burning wish target, and gets play for that reason.  Capsize does not get played, ever.

[Nastaboi]

Singleton Capsize was a combo enabler in old Academy lists before they invented storm. Thus it has a little historical value.

BTW it's Saviors of Kamigawa, not Survivors.

[Kowal]

Capsize was also sweet as a catchall and alternate win condition for Phid decks years ago.  I remember breaking quite a few people by capsizing their board over several turns and beating down with Ophidian.

[Gabethebabe]

Great comments.

I was sure I had omitted some cards and you´ve already pointed out a couple.

Included Putrid Imp (cat. 4), Careful Study (4), ESG (3), Ray of Revelation (4), Rushing River (3), Viashino Heretic (4), Withered Wretch (3), Juzam (4).

Dowgraded Cabal Therapy. I gets played in Ichorid and IT sideboard and put Rector on the map, but cat. 2 is still a bit overrated.

I don´t feel I have underrated oath Creatures like Akroma. Akroma is crap. It´s only there thanks to Oath and could easily be replaced by other creatures (Razia, Spirit, Sky Swallower, the flying Moat, Colossus).

Smokestack is lower than Tange wire becase stacks can be played without either of them, but tangle Wire also sees/saw play in other decks.

But sure, some of my analysis not everybody will agree with. It´s hard to be objective, if not impossible.

I don´t think I want to put to much old-time stuff in there. I just put that to get Legends a little higher on the list