Hammer of Bogardan Cycle

[asi]

Well, Hammer of Bogardan is a recurrable Lightning Bolt, so I thought that a cycle of recurrable iconic spells would make sense.


Hammer of Bogardan Cycle:

R:
Hammer of Bogardan

Sorcery
Hammer of Bogardan deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
: Return Hammer of Bogardan from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only during your upkeep.

G:
Pact of Bone

Sorcery
Return target card from your graveyard to your hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Pact of Bone from your graveyard to your hand.


B:
Hellborn Tutor

Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Hellborn Tutor from your graveyard to your hand.



W:

Agricultural Revolution
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller gains life equal to its power.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay   . If you do, return Agricultural Revolution from your graveyard to your hand.

U:
Obviate

Instant
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Obviate from your graveyard to your hand.


Well, most of them obviously need names. Also, I'd like to know whether these effects are too "big" (have too much impact) to be made recurrable. If they should be, I would try to find new, but weaker spells that are somewhat iconic.

[parallax]

Green should get pump.
Black should probably be discard.
Why aren't they worded "cost: Return ~this~ from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only during your upkeep."?

[asi]

Yes, the wording is different than the original, because the original wording would probably not see print these days. I'm considering either changing the original, or making mine more "old fashioned". I don't think green should get pumping; not only is that really lame, but also not good on a reusable spell. There are two kinds of pumping effects: Giant Growth and Overrun. I want Giant Growth effects as cheap and efficient as possible, because they are mostly combat tricks and needed early, so it would make them terrible to add mana just to make it reusable. Overrun effects don't need to be reusable, because I will usually only play them when I will win, anyways. I'm considering the discard part, though.

[Anusien]

Whatever you give green (and token producing is probably a good effect), it sure as hell can't be Raise Dead.  That's purely black, especially with the name you gave it.

[parallax]

That's not Raise Dead. That's Regrowth. A reusable Regrowth is just too strong.

[asi]

That's not Raise Dead. That's Regrowth. A reusable Regrowth is just too strong.

Why? Eternal Witness, recurred by Genesis costs the same, and both cards are much better on their own. Yes, this + Time Walk sounds great, but Panoptic Mirror is a 10 cents card for a reason. I am not convinced at all to change the green one, I actually think it is the best designed of the bunch (except Hammer. I love that one. Explains the cycle, huh?   ). It might have to cost 2GG, but seing Recollect not being played at all really hurt me. It is quite powerful, but is it too powerful? If you have concerns on combo decks, the "recur" ability could be changed to something with triple green, so weird combo decks would really hate it. I do not see a reason for this right now, but if others think the same (or you convince me) I will change it of course.


edit: gave them names (not sure on them, though) and found out "StoP" isn't a white ability anymore (white now removes fightning creatures from the game). Should it be changed (would be stupid, I think, because when your opponent knows of the Devouring Light effect in your hand, he won't attack) or stay for old times' sake?

Do you think the black one is too weak, compared to Planar Portal? Portal costs 6+ 6x mana, where x=number of cards tutored for. The black thing costs 5+12x, which sounds horrible, if you ask me.

[Anusien]

That's not Raise Dead. That's Regrowth. A reusable Regrowth is just too strong.

For some reason I read target creature card.  The name definitely needs to change.

White needs to be target attacking creature.

[parallax]

Planar Portal costs 12 mana for your first card and 6 for every card thereafter.
Hellborn Tutor costs 5 mana for your first card and 12 for every card thereafter.
In other words, your first tutor is cheaper, your second card is the same cost, and it's only worse on your third and more cards. I don't think this is worse than Planar Portal at all. Planar Portal also has a risk of getting destroyed before you get your first card. This doesn't.

The green one is probably fine. I'm just always wary of reusable Regrowth effects. It should be noted that Eternal Witness + Genesis is two cards, but the comparison to Panoptic Mirror is apt. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this.

[zeus-online]

G:
Pact of Bone

Sorcery
Return target card from your graveyard to your hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Pact of Bone from your graveyard to your hand.

This card Seems extremely powerful....a recurable regrowth...somehow just dosnt seem right....Creature pump would probably be better.


B:
Hellborn Tutor

Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Hellborn Tutor from your graveyard to your hand.

Hmm the "recur-cost" should be upped a bit i think..tutors are strong...



W:

Peaceful Exile
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller gains life equal to its power.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Peaceful Exile from your graveyard to your hand.

Attacking creature, or maybe "attacking or blocking"...then its fine.


U:
Obviate

Instant
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Obviate from your graveyard to your hand.

Wizards generally dont like counters that comes back....at 10 mana you got a "hard lock". (more or less)

[parallax]

I think if you're pumping 9-12 mana into a single spell, you'd want it to do something on its own, rather than getting you another card that you need to pay for. The green one should almost certainly give you a token creature. The black one has several options: discard, graveyard removal, library removal, life drain, creature removal (you'd have to change the white one, then).

I don't think the blue one is terribly degenerate. At ten mana, your opponent should be casting more than one spell a turn anyway. It's not really a hard lock.

[zeus-online]

I'm asuming that by the time somehow gets to 10 mana, both players are in top-deck mode or something.

I've played forbiddian, that really isnt a "hard-lock", but it sure feels like it.

Ah...the old times...beating with a morphling while holding 7 counterspells...

/Zeus

[asi]

G:
Pact of Bone

Sorcery
Return target card from your graveyard to your hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Pact of Bone from your graveyard to your hand.

This card Seems extremely powerful....a recurable regrowth...somehow just dosnt seem right....Creature pump would probably be better.

Already said why I think it is not broken. What do others think? Making the Recur 3GGG is always a possibility.

B:
Hellborn Tutor

Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Hellborn Tutor from your graveyard to your hand.

Hmm the "recur-cost" should be upped a bit i think..tutors are strong...

7 Mana is the cost of a recursion, plus 5 to cast it (plus mana to cast what you tutored). Actually, I think any deck running this would have to run Cabal Coffers (first get Coffers, then use it to recur something), and that is only Extended and Legacy stuff (yeah for Jack Elgin). Not broken, I'd say, but I'm willing to do discard if necessary (for the reasons parallax stated).

W:

Peaceful Exile
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller gains life equal to its power.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Peaceful Exile from your graveyard to your hand.

Attacking creature, or maybe "attacking or blocking"...then its fine.

Agreed, will be changed.

U:
Obviate

Instant
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Obviate from your graveyard to your hand.

Wizards generally dont like counters that comes back....at 10 mana you got a "hard lock". (more or less)

Might end up a card draw. Not because it's broken, but because it might be frustrating to play against (though you can still cast instants when the triggers goes on the stack. in contrast to ScepterChant, it is more difficult to destroy, but also much less effective).

[asmoranomardicodais]

I absolutely love the blue and green ones, and they shouldn't change. Both are powerful and make you make hard decisions during your upkeep, and neither is degenerate. Since this is your upkeep, you have to decide if you want to commit yourself, in either case, to spending all that mana before you know whats on the top of your deck. For the blue one, that's making the bet that you won't topdeck a counterspell, or a win condition. The green one is giving up any chance you have of playing your draw because its so mana intensive. Both are very interesting to use, and remind me a bit of the choices that are made when forecasting cards.

Having said that, I think the black one is a little bit boring, and obviously the white one needs to change. Maybe make the white one tap three creatures or something?

[Illissius]

The white one could be Wrath, for , and an appropriately hefty recur cost.

[nietzsche]

Actually, turning the white one into a 7 mana wrath with like a 12 mana recur would be a very lovely card - forcing you opponent into a real clock like they do you.  It becomes a huge race to whoever can create the best board postion, and it leaves you forced to come up with something that can win before your opponent can come back (you can wrath your own dude, but its going to be hard.) and at a 19 mana recur and cast, your opponent is most assuredly going to get a swing unless you are running tron.

[andrewpate]

I agree.  It would also create that sort of race to "critical mass" reminiscent of the old U/W Control decks from Standard trying to get to 12 mana to return and play Eternal Dragon in one turn.  The white player could be trying to get to the mana to Wrath every turn while the aggro player tried to get enough pressure down to win before then.  This is a very exciting play situation.

[asi]

I will change the white one when I'm home, I really like your suggestion. Wrath also is more in-colour now than StoP. I still think the black one might be too bad; would a Mind Twist Variant be okay (very easy to play around though. and aggro doesn't care at all).

[dandan]

G:
Pact of Bone

Sorcery
Return target card from your graveyard to your hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Pact of Bone from your graveyard to your hand.
B:
Hellborn Tutor

Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Hellborn Tutor from your graveyard to your hand.
W:

Peaceful Exile
Instant
Remove target attacking or blocking creature from the game. Its controller gains life equal to its power.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Peaceful Exile from your graveyard to your hand.
U:
Obviate

Instant
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, return Obviate from your graveyard to your hand.

IMHO the Green one should cost 2GG as there is already a 3cc Regrowth.
The Black one is also fine, as it costs 1 mana more than an existing card without the return from graveyard effect
Ditto the White one and Blue one.

The buyback costs are high enough to effectively cost you a turn of mana so even the powerful Regrowth and Demonic Tutor effects are OK as the CC of the spells are correct for the effect.

[asi]

IMHO the Green one should cost 2GG as there is already a 3cc Regrowth.
The Black one is also fine, as it costs 1 mana more than an existing card without the return from graveyard effect
Ditto the White one and Blue one.

The buyback costs are high enough to effectively cost you a turn of mana so even the powerful Regrowth and Demonic Tutor effects are OK as the CC of the spells are correct for the effect.

Recollect really sucks, it wasn't played at all, if I remember correctly. Eternal Witness costs the same as this, and is, as I already said, easily recurred (and can do nasty things with Cabal Therapy). No reason to make this the new Elven Cache.

I didn't mean to decrease the casting cost of the tutor (I think Diabolic Tutor is fine and balanced), just the cost to return it to your hand. If you have enough mana to do some tutoring with this, you might as well play Consume Spirit or, even better, Sceletal Scrying.

[asi]

24 hour clock, I guess.

[Matt]

Not yet you don't:

1. White one needs a non-placeholder name.
2. Isn't the black one incredibly expensive? I think it could get away with 3BB/3BB.

[asi]

I forgot about the placeholder name. I would like to have a name similiar to Wrath of God, but I don't really have an idea.
Yes, the black one is really expensive. It was actually one mana more expensive before my last post (changed it), and I don't know if reducing to 5 mana is a good thing. Remember it's already quite good when you just dredge/Entomb/discard/Gamble/Gifts it, you don't have to cast it to make it a resource.

[Illissius]

Not yet you don't:

1. White one needs a non-placeholder name.
2. Isn't the black one incredibly expensive? I think it could get away with 3BB/3BB.

White one seems that way, too... I mean, it's a recurring Wrath, but does it have be more expensive by three mana? would be enough, I think.

[asi]

White one seems that way, too... I mean, it's a recurring Wrath, but does it have be more expensive by three mana? would be enough, I think.

Could be,I'd say. The question is whether you'd want a recurrable Wrath in your meta and in T2. I think recurrable Wrath effects can be very demoralizing; these cards will be T2 legal, so some people might play them in Arena, and newbies will probably think of this as "unfair". It is not broken to have it a 6-mana cost, but I think it would be better for the format as 7-mana. Once resolved, you'll quickly have eight mana, which makes winning incredibly easy with this one. Six mana would lead too many people to a strategy including mana acceleration, counters and this one, which would end in an even more frustrating Tooth deck.

[Godder]

I think the Wrath should allow regeneration, as a way of toning it down a little (makes lower costs ok).

Also, do all these necessarily have to cost so much to return?

[asmoranomardicodais]

Wow, wait a second. Why does the blue one cost so much to recur? I mean, paying four to recur a 4cc counterspell is not going to break anything in half. You should lower that ones recur cost if none of the others.

[asi]

I really like Controvert power-level-wise, so I think the blue one should be oriented at that level. I might drop the return cost by (would be 3UU) (thinking about it). Changed the white one and gave it a name.

[Liam-K]

The Counterspell looks a lot like Controvert right now.  A lot a lot.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I just feel it would be a much more interesting card at 2UU to cast and 2UU to recur. If a control deck has 4UUUU and nothing else to use it on, shouldn't they be able to have one counterspell a turn?

[dandan]

I just feel it would be a much more interesting card at 2UU to cast and 2UU to recur. If a control deck has 4UUUU and nothing else to use it on, shouldn't they be able to have one counterspell a turn?

If a decent control deck has 4UUUU it does have at least a counterspell a turn