Chalice/Sui

[MonoE]

Dear The Mana Drain,

I have played Suicide black since forever. My current build is influenced by Legend's primer and Zherbus's Chalice Black build, and then by the numerous informative discussions here. My basic idea here is to find a middle ground between the inconsistent and vulnerable, but somtimes powerful, Suicide Black concept; and the safer, but weaker-on-the-punch, Chalice Black or Void concept. I know that I sacrifice some aspect of each strategy (a little speed and beatdown from Sui; a little more safety from Chalice) in finding this middle ground, but I am okay with this.

//Creatures (14)
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Masticore

//Disruption (16)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sinkhole

//Broken (3)
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//Mana (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
16 Swamp

//Sideboard (15)
4 Withered Wretch
3 Dystopia
3 Contagion
2 Powder Keg
2 Coffin Purge
1 Masticore

Quick notes on some choices and gameplay--

Creatures

I like having 14 creatures because it doesn't impinge on my disruption strategy, but really lets me beat down.

Hyppie: For some, Withered Wretch seems to have completely subsumed Hyppie as the disruption-creature par excellence. I can't let the old guy go, though, and here are my reasons: (1) He flies. Against jank, especially green jank, this can be game-winning. Against anything else, it never hurts, and quite a few times he flies over some creature that, while in my opponent's deck as anything as a chump blocker (I'm thinking Welder, Metalworker, Ophidian), can't block him because he flies. (2) In conjunction with Withered Wretch post-SB, his discard-forcing ability is not the 'drawback' some make it out to be. (3) He costs three, not two, making Chalice for 2 a more viable strategy (not last resort, but strategy).

Shade: The hammer, as Legend said.

Negator: Another hammer. Comes out first turn, goes to work second turn. Thrives against anything not packing red, and, to my surprise, if you play him right he can still win some games for you against a two-color red deck packing some burn. If you're careful.

Masticore: I have vacillated between maindecking and only sideboarding him. Recently he's gotten the nod maindeck because (1) He's an artifact, not a black creature, improving my deck's resilience to black-hating set-ups. (2) He regenerates, improving my deck's resilience to burn as removal. (3) He kills weenies, making Negator more playable against a wider chunk of the field. (3) Most importantly (I've found), he gives me a use for Chalice-cost cards! When I Chalice for 1, Masticore is the MVP as I discard Dark Rituals and Duresses all day. Overall, I find him a good choice, basically because of Chalice. He still beats for 4, so he is not bad even against creatureless control (wherever that's gone to die these days). And finally, it's never bad to have a solution to Welder, albeit a 6-mana solution.

Dark Confidant: I don't run him. I'd like it to stay that way. I have respect for his place in a more controllish version, where card advantage becomes more important because the game lasts longer, but in this deck he is too much cardspace for too little substance. I have so many four-ofs that taking one of them out for a draw engine will actually decrease my consistency (not to say limit my options / screw with my strategies). He dies to everything. As does Hyppie, but I can't afford to run eight maindeck creatures that can be dealt with that easily. Hyppie can be my 'lightning rod.'

Disruption

The suite is pretty standard. Hymns are not as good as they used to be, but they are still brutal against many decks, and better than Therapy here because this deck loves Chalicing for 1. Even with the prevalence of fetches, Sinkholes (along with Hymns and Wastelands) can turn decent hands into mana-screw hands, and borderline hands into game over.

Chalice, however, is what makes this deck tougher than Sui decks of the past. A Chalices for zero and/or one can buy turns against combo, and one for each can seal the game when backed by appropriate disruption and a creature-rush (which, for this deck, can simply mean a Negator and a Shade, or even just a Shade/Negator and a Hyppie for insurance). This deck can even Chalice for 2, especially if it has already Chaliced for 1 and has a creature or two out. Masticore is an especially delicious option in such an instance.

One note on using 'unusable' Chalice cards-- Unmask seems just as good as Masticore, and doesn't cost any more (if we're thinking in terms of fearing a Mana Drain). However--

(1) When you pitch useful cards to Unmask, well, that's a 2-for-1, and that hurts. At least with Masticore they're in your graveyard for Will.

(2) This will happen more often with Unmask than Masticore, because Masticore costs four mana where Unmask 'costs' zero. And discard is more effective early.

(3) Masticore gives you an outlet to discard unuseful cards each turn, not just once.

(4) Masticore is so much more useful against so many more things-- creatures, black hate, burn-as-removal. Plus he beats.

(5) When I side in Contagions, that would be 5 pitch cards instead of 3 pitch cards and 2 discard-once-a-turn cards. Granted, Contagion doesn't have incredible synergy with either card, Unmask or Masticore, but at least it doesn't draw from the exact same pool of cards (black cards) as Unmask. Which brings me to--

(6) Unmask draws on the resources of 31 cards in the deck; Masticore, 60.

Broken

Well, that's what it is. I've left out Necropotence because I really just couldn't find a place for singleton Necro. It only works well if it comes out early, and I simply do not have the deckspace.

Consultation is clutch in a deck with 9 four-ofs, a 2-of, and 16 Swamp. As good as land when you need land, but able to get anything else in your deck except Will (why would you search for Tutor?). It's also a one-drop, bringing the one-drop count to 10 (Ritual, Duress, Consult, Lotus Petal), or 11 if you consider the next-turn acceleration play of drop, tap, Sol Ring a 'one-drop.' Or 15 if you are up against someone you want to Chalice for zero against.This is enough to ensure that you'll usually have a first-turn play, while keeping a Chalice on 1 very, very manageable. (More manageable for you than for most any other deck out there, especially because four of the cards you have at 1 -- Rituals -- are mana, not business.)

Mana

Playing maindeck Masticore and Chalice make the manabase very utile, because you have five 'extra' sources -- Wastes, Strip -- if you really need them. Not to mention that Sol Ring works for Negator, too, a fact I did not foresee but which has meant the difference in not a few games.

I do not own a Black Lotus nor a Mox Jet. Therefore, I have subbed in a Lotus Petal and a Swamp. So far, the Petal has only helped.

Sideboard

I'm least certain about my sideboard, somewhat because, since I haven't decided where exactly to play this deck, I don't have a specific metagame in mind. I play against my friends' decks, but they're all rogue or suboptimal, and even the ones that aren't, I don't feel right just metagaming for them, you know? Consider my metagame an average Vintage metagame, or the Vintage metagame at large, then. I know that Oath is an unfavorable matchup, and that Workshop decks are pretty much hopeless, but I hope to have some game against pretty much anything else. I know with Kegs, Masticores, and Chalices that Sligh or anything built like it is in the bag; much combo is a toss-up, but Chalice and Wretch post-SB are a deadly one-two against Intuition and Gifts-based combo. Not to mention that this deck is designed to disrupt spell-based strategy.

Wretches go in for Hyppie or Hymn (tending toward Hymn against graveyard-using aggro and Hyppie against graveyard-using control).

The Purges can also go in, and are especially effective against decks that tend to have a few key cards in the graveyard in need of removal. Plus they are 'two' spells-- spell plus flashback, and discard alone doesn't get rid of the threat. One drawback is that they make a Chalice for one a little more problematic for me. Wretch is overall a better answer, but the Purges go in against decks where getting an answer pronto is a matter of life or death.

Powder Keg, although its mana-denial and weenie-hate usages are superseded by Chalice, is still a strong choice that works against many things, and is my only hope against creatures and artifacts beyond the scope of Chalice and Contagion. Believe it or not, I can often drop a Keg early and, if backed by enough mana denial, reach an appropriate amount of counters to take out things like Smokestack and Morphling that Chalice and Contagion (respectively) are ineffective against. Not to mention that siding in two Kegs and three Contagions makes me feel safer when playing a Welder-based deck. With 2 Kegs, 3 Contagions, and 4 Chalice, I've got 6 on-the-play preemptive solutions and 3 post-Welder solutions, not to mention that if I can disrupt my opponent for a turn (Sinkhole, Duress away a Thirst, Chalice for 0 if he hasn't dropped a land yet (hoping to draw one), play a Wretch with mana open), the Kegs can drop after a Welder does, and I can still escape a quick switchie-switchie.

I haven't been able to drop Dystopia thus far because it is my only hope against low-cost enchantments (of course, it's no answer to blue, red, or black enchantments, but what low-cost blue/red/black enchantments could I see? There might be a few, but they're marginal at best). I know the decks it's best against have receded into the second tier, but it's so useful against such a wide array of things that I'd like to keep it unless you have better ideas.

The extra Masticore is for added insurance against burn, weenie strategies, and black hate. That one extra pushes me to three, making a win on the back of an unremovable Masticore that's just swept the board a more viable strategy post-SB. Or it lets me feel safer that I have 3 non-black creatures in the deck to steal a win from a resolved Abyss, COP:Black with plenty of mana, etc.

Contagion is a good answer to a few things -- Welder and most aggro strategies -- and is the deck's only play against Tinker-->DSC. Of course, it's a pretty pathetic stall of DSC anyhow, and if a deck manages to Tinker against me, I pretty much lose unless they're close to death already. But I hope to preempt the Tinker with disruption to steal mana and cards away, and Chalice to prevent the cheapsies artifact mana from fueling Tinker. Not the best solution, but decks only have one Tinker, and if I can get a Chalice for zero down early, may not have an artifact to sacrifice to it.

Some questions--

(1) Which matchups does my current build have trouble with that some sort of tweak could improve? As I said above, I'm not interested in trying to make this beat Workshop. I understand its limitations in that regard. However, what are some winnable matchups which I may not be optimized against?

(2) Chains of Mephistopheles sideboard? Since I don't have any card advantage, why not ruin theirs? Of course, I don't want to have to get 2 or 3 of these, but would they be a good idea if I could get them? I'm not sure if the field is saturated enough with draw to warrant it-- it feels to me like a lot of the card advantage in Vintage today comes from the graveyard-- Intuition, Gifts, Welder. I have Purge and Wretches for that. Not to mention that Chains costs 2, which is the nightmare number as this deck is already freakin saturated at that cost.

(3) Null Rod SB? Seems to me that Chalice handles its mana-denial use, while Keg handles other random artifacts (Cursed Scroll, Smokestack...).

(4) Any other good sideboard tech for this sort of deck that I'm missing? I'm very open to suggestions that may make the overall deck (MD + SB) more ready-for-anything (within reason). Sui is metagamed to combo and control, but that doesn't mean it can't pack hate for decks of all varieties in the SB.

I haven't playtested extensively. I Apprentice this deck a bit, but I don't have any sort of detailed matchup analysis. I know the Oath matchup stinks unless I can (a) Duress or Hymn away an Oath, (b) Chalice for 2, or (c) Dystopia in time, and Workshop is even worse, with even fewer win conditions for me. I know that I have a good chance against blue-based control and combo in general, and that my chances increase if (1) they are susceptible to a Chalice for one and/or zero; (2) they rely on cards in graveyard; (3) they tend to be a little slow out of the gate (of course, no deck admits to this, but when a control deck routinely keep hands with a few lands and counters and some higher-mana stuff, they should expect to lose against me, because Sui/Chalice loves facing a hand like that. Barring a Misdirected Hymn, this deck likes being on the play or even on the draw against a counter-heavy hand.) Fish looks to be pretty good, as any of the following is pretty much game: (1) Chalice for 1; (2) Chalice for 2 (esp. with my having one or two creatures out); (3) Masticore without their having a Null Rod (some Fish decks have eschewed Rod anyhow to allow for Vial and/or Jitte). Post-Sb, Contagion and Powder Keg are a nightmare for them, and Meddling Mage (if they play that) doesn't hurt me that badly, as this deck truly runs on all pistons and will probably remove the pesky little thing presently anyhow.


Thoughts? I really appreciate this community. I have read through lots of posts and many of you have great deck ideas and great strategy points for relative newcomers like myself.

Thanks, people,

Eric

[Demonic Attorney]

Without delving into the precise questions you posed in your post, I just want to say upfront that this is possibly the most thorough, well-thought out post I have ever seen in the Improvement forum.  Kudos. 

Unfortunately, I'm a little disappointed to see it dedicated to Suicide Black.  I realize you're a longtime devotee of the archetype, but if you've read as many posts on this site as you seem to, you've surely heard the overwhelming consensus that Suicide Black is an unviable archetype.  This may be sad, but it's incontrovertibly true.  The deck's disruption is no longer enough to put much of a dent in the resources of most well-built decks, and its offensive power is sorely lacking when compared to the explosiveness of combo, the resiliency of Slaver, the sheer power level in Gifts, or the board domination of Oath and Stax.  I have only seen Sui Black at the upper tables of a competitive event once in the past two years. 

While you're certainly entitled to rely on the community's intellectual resources to tune your build of Sui Black to optimum form if you so choose, and although you definitely have the right to play whatever deck you want to in Vintage, I would really advise you to abandon it in favor of a more competitive deck.  If you peruse the tournament results forum, you'll see lots of decklists for archetypes that have performed consistently well for quite some time in high-level events.  You clearly possess the wherewithall to ask the right questions and learn from helpful answers; I think those talents would pay much bigger dividends if you focus on a stronger concept.

[GUnit]

I know a dude named Rick who plays a sick suicide deck. In the last three vintage events I've participated in he's made it to the finals twice- splitting a mox jet the one time and I believe losing the other- and narrowly missed T8 another time. And these are relatively large, high-powered proxy tourneys, with a significant amount of very good players. The deck's not dead yet, but nobody plays the right sorts of lists. I'm not going to give away all of his super secret tech, but I will say that not running withered wretch in the MD seems like a real mistake to me, considering that like 50% of all games are determined by yawgmoth's will, and he's a 2/2 for 2. Masticore is slow, and terrible against most matches, but not a bad SB choice for aggro matches.

Also, Dark Confidant is the most played creature in vintage. He's the only creature that gets played in combo, control, aggro AND prison decks. He's also a 2/1 for 2. I don't think I should have to explain why he should be in the deck.

[TopSecret]

     Looking over your decklist, I notice that you do not have a reactive
answer to Tinker, fetching a Darksteel Collosus.
Have you ever found this to present a problem?
If so, perhaps a few Diabolic Edicts could be added to the maindeck.

     Since you are not running Nullrod maindeck,
you could find space to add a few Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice.
They are very helpful in the aggro matchup, help deal damage, and remove random creatures.

     Nullrod in the sideboard sounds like a good idea, if you are not Maindecking them.
You could also add Massacre to the side to deal with UW fish.
I don't know what you could add to deal with Oath.
The best card I can think of is Cranial Extraction.

     Mishra's Factories are also very useful in general, and with 27 mana sources,
it seems like they could replace some other lands.
If you add Factories, it may be a good idea to add one Crucible of Worlds to the maindeck as well.
It could potentially create a lock with Wastes and Stripmine,
or act as a huge abstacle for aggro decks with added Factories.

     I would suggest taking a closer look at Dark Confidant, just because he is so good.

     As far as Sucide Black's viability, I would have to agree with Demonic Attorney.
It's abilities against most current Type 1 decks are somewhat limited.
If you ever decide to look into other decks, there are plenty of aggro lists on TMD.

You seem to really know your stuff!
I hope my advice is helpful.

     Good luck!

[Darkenslight]

     Nullrod in the sideboard sounds like a good idea, if you are not Maindecking them.
You could also add Massacre to the side to deal with UW fish.
I don't know what you could add to deal with Oath.
The best card I can think of is Cranial Extraction.
     Mishra's Factories are also very useful in general, and with 27 mana sources,

What about Jester's Cap?  It acts as proactive toolkit removal.

[Harlequin]

I would also like to compliment you on a pristeen first post on the Drain.  If there was an award for "Best first post" I think you would win by a landslide.

You have a solid theoretical Foundation, but I alow me to take a crack at some subtel flaws in your structure.

Firstly, you have alot of 4-of's that you wouldn't want to nesissarily see 2 of in one game.  Namely, Nantuko, Hymn, and possibly negator.  I think those cards would make excellant 3-ofs.  A general rule of thumb:
1-of : Restricted - or ment as a target for abundant tutoring
2-of : very limited card, nessisary for your deck's survial but not something you would nessisarily want to see every game
3-of : A card you would want to see 1 of in almost any opening hand, but a card that if you had 2 of in an opening hand you would likely mulligan.  Or a solid card, that doesn't stack with itself (for example 2 null rods is no better than 1 null rod)
4-of : A card that you can't get enough of, you would generally happily keep a hand with 2 copies of this card, and the effects of the 2nd copy of this card would be at LEAST as good as (if not better than) the first. Or a Crucial card in your deck (for example oath running 4 oath of druids).

The choice to run more 3-of's makes your consultation weaker ... as you understand.  But I think the blow to consultation is worth the boost for the overall helth of the deck.  However, Black has access to 2 disadvantage tutors that can grant you quick access to some 1 or 2-of answers you might have (Vamp and Imperial).

2nd)  You need graveyard hate.  The format right now is dependant on the graveyard.  Slaver, Gifts, Combo, Dragon, Ichorid ...  All are highly dependant on the graveyard.   I would personally Choose Planar Void as my answer to the graveyard.  Overall I think its a better card than Leyline of the void because if your running your black tutors, you can get it out on turn 2 (or for turn 1 Rit -> DT -> planar void works too).  Which also means you don't have to run it as a 4-of.  Wretch is ok, but he comes online in the late game, he is more easily removed, and he competes dirrectly with the shade. 

3rd) I think you need to pick a focus.  Mana Denial, or Hand/Spell Denial. 
-- For mana Denial you don't need as many Hymns, you don't need Hypies.  You do need your Sink holes, you waste/strips, and your chalices.  In addition you need Null Rods, and to really consider running Crucible + Manlands (mishra's factory) + Neither Void.  This will give you a "better than Trinisphere" Strangle hold on your opponent.  If you go this route, then Nantuko is weak because your going to need extra mana - and - your negator will be your main win condition.  Also the need for confidant becomes less important, because post neither you may need to play some draw-go for a while and confidant may give you problems.
-- For hand denial you NEED Confidant first and formost.  Becuase most of your discard threats will go 1 for 1, you need to actually out draw them.  Confidant will give you the power you need to do this.  You can probably drop sink hole, and ~maybe~ chalice, and likely you can drop the wasteland count to 3.  You should also consider running the off color moxen as well.   Then you add in Chains of Meph, Possibly a few Unmask, and I would highly suggest Cabal Therapy, and 1 Mind Twist.  You will need reactive answers to topdeck problems like Yawgwill and Tinker, so if you have planar voids in then you also might consider Diabolic Edict as well.  This will give you some reactive measures against topdeck brokeness.  You don't need to worry about your confidants survival because your trying to get them into topdeck mode as soon as possible. 

[zeus-online]

I personally think that Nantuko shade is way too weak...in most cases its a 2/1 with an unusable ability (you have to play your disruption early, and frequent, so you cant keep mana up and you dont want to just "Fireball" the mana away)

Necropotence is definetly a must-add, its actually alot better then will in suicide, imo.
Willing your discard cards back wont help you much, removal isnt heavily played (atleast maindeck) so your creatures arent likely to end up in the 'yard pre-board.

@Harlequin:
I dont agree on planar void, i think its strictly a SB card. Withered wretch is pretty good, although slow as you mentioned.
Also, i believe "light" hand removal is necessary, otherwise you'll end up dead before the mana-denial really kicks in.

/Zeus

Ps. well-written post, although a bit oldschoolish

[Harlequin]

@Harlequin:
I dont agree on planar void, i think its strictly a SB card. Withered wretch is pretty good, although slow as you mentioned.
Also, i believe "light" hand removal is necessary, otherwise you'll end up dead before the mana-denial really kicks in.

At what point does a "narrow" card come off the sideboard.  PVoid range from good to amazing against about 50% of the meta (with Fish, shop aggro, and Oath being the other 50%).  Esp in a deck with very few answers to topdeck yawgmoth's will, I think Pvoid on the main is absolutely nessisary.  Wretch just doesn't get you the same return on investment.

I 100% agree with the "light" hand removal if you go the mana denial "focus."  I would say 4 Duress and 2 hymn should be plenty.  Hypies and Hymn #3 and #4 would need to be cut or boarded to make space for your real mana denial cards. 

[zeus-online]

Planar void isnt always usefull against graveyard-using decks, Dragons and welders can both play around it. Also it has to come down turn 1 or 2 or its not going to be usefull so you have to run atleast 3 of them. I agree that its far better then the leyline, but i still dont believe its good enough for MD inclusion.

I've suggested this deck on another forum a month ago or so, when discussing suicide (Everyone loves suicide, even YOU )

Mana: (24)
8 Fetch
5 Swamp
5 Strips
1 Mox jet
1 Black lotus
4 Dark ritual

Critters: (11)
4 Withered wretch
4 Dark confidant
3 Phyrexian negator

Disruption: (15)
4 Duress
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Null rod

Other: (4)
3 Diabolic edict - Mostly for DSC but can also buy a round versus Oath.
1 Necropotence - This thing is the nutz, no reason not to run it imo.

Thats 54 cards, leaving room for additional inclusions.
Also if its going to become more mana-denialish i'd suggest cutting a couple of hymns, maybe adding crucible to the deck?
The decks needs more beaters, atleast 3 more.

The rods can become chalices easily.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

While I don't think that Suicide Black is a really competitive deck, it can steal some matches in the right meta (i.e., not a combo-oriented one).  The creature base is incredibly important to this deck, and one creature is consistently overlooked.  That creature is Flesh Reaver.  He's the Jotun Grunt of your deck, the card that puts your deck into a comfortable damage-output zone where you just crush the other player on the back of excellent disruption.  While an argument can be made for Shade, it really is absolutely wretched.  If you have nothing to do with your mana, you've already got a problem!  Dark Confidant is the best card in your deck, bar none.  Drawing cards is just flat-out good, or so I hear.  With that said, the following list seems sound for a meta oriented towards Drains and Shops:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Null Rod

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence

4 Dark Ritual

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1  Mox Jet

3 Bloodstained Mire
13 Swamp

Sideboard
As You Please

[MonoE]

First of all, thank you all for your insights. And Demonic Attorney and Harlequin, thanks so much for your kind words. Sorry for the sort of rambling nature of the following responses and thoughts. You've got me thinking, so I'm working stuff out in my head . . .

I think Masticore is definitely going to be a 2-of in the sideboard and a none-of in the maindeck. I really like that he puts Chaliced cards to use, but other than that he's too slow and unuseful against much of the field. The deck he's best against is Fish, yet I'm hard-pressed to resolve a 4-cc spell against Fish, and many Fish decks run Null Rod anyway. So Masticore's out, and we now have 2 open maindeck slots, 1 open sideboard slot.

@Zeus: I don't think you realize how this deck uses Nantuko Shade. Dropping him second turn (or whenever you get two mana up) is a last ditch resort in a game you probably wouldn't have won anyway. This deck drops Shade last. Yes, this pretty much negates his low casting cost, but he makes up for this with his ability to grow huge in the middle-to-late game. Plus, he does only cost BB, so although you can't play him until later, he leaves mana open when cast either for other stuff, or to pump him as insurance against decks packing burn. Or just to gain some crucial life vs. STP.

My inability to find room for Necropotence irks me, too. Maybe I'll have room now that Masticore's gone.

@Harlequin: I do want to see as many Negators as possible in most matchups. True, only one Shade needs to be out at a time, but running four of them is really more of an insurance against their removal. I am very rarely unhappily surprised by drawing a Shade. I love having out a card that makes a Swamp a good topdeck. I am willing to go down to three or two in other areas, though, and if that also frees up the Consultation spot, so be it.

I really dislike Planar Void. Any deck packing instant graveyard manipulation gets around it, and it's just too . . . blunt, in my opinion. I do not think that Wretch comes out too late to be effective. I could up the Coffin Purge count to three or even four, though. They come online as quickly as Planar Void, but don't die to bounce, and have one more usage left after counter or discard. All for .

As for maindecking Withered Wretch, while I recognize that Wretch for Hyppie may be the right move in a lot of respects, I can't get it out of my head that Chalicing for two after having made this swap will leave me with four playable creatures. Now, Chalicing for 2 probably won't be a great move anyway, but I feel that against a deck where Hyppies are going to get their damage in, or else kill stuff (let's say, Fish), it's important to have a Chalice-for-two as an option, at least. For the moment I'm going to go 4 Hyppie, 2 Wretch. I can find Wretch with Tutor or, in a more dire situation, a hopeful Consultation, in the matches that he's the gamebreaker. I can then side in 1 or 2 Wretch and Coffin Purges and run things graveyard-wise.

I like Crucible of Worlds as a one-of, and would put in Vampiric Tutor if I ran that combo. I don't like Factories because they either take up creature spots (but all my creatures are better than vanilla 2/2s) or they take up mana spots (and I can't afford to decrease the amount of black mana I can produce). The only third option for inclusion of Factories is, well, overhauling the deck and making it much more controllish, which I don't want to do if I can avoid it.

Putting Wretch in the maindeck allows more sideboard room, unless I want the Hyppies there, which I think I probably do not.

Okay, so what can fill the Chaliced-cards-using shoes of Masticore? I don't like Unmask because, as I explained, I usually use it early, whereas if it's removing Dark Rituals and other 1cc stuff, I'd like to just be playing those cards before I lay down my Chalice. Post-Chalice, it's okay, but it's still a sucky topdeck unless I randomly have four open mana-- unlikely with Wretch and Shade on the team. Contagion is great post-board for this, but what about maindeck? Any thoughts? Or should I just let those cards accumulate in my hand, and bank on the fact that other decks don't have many ways to unload their deck cards either, except for Force and the occasional Misd.?

I am not going the Jitte/SoFI route. I feel confident against most forms of aggro with 2 Masticore and 3 Contagion coming out of the side, and I honestly can't spare deckspace for cards that cost mana to come out, and then cost extra mana to actually do anything. My low creature-count is another consideration. Boy, does it suck to topdeck one of these guys when you're really looking for a threat. It's the old Unearth dilemma.

The lack of an answer to DSC bothers me, too. I don't know if I can stand Diabolic Edicts maindeck, it would make this feel like such a Legacy deck, I don't know. I was reading in the tournament report about a deck that used Cranial Extraction, and in more than one game the Extraction found DSC. Since Extraction is also a fairly decent plan against Oath, I think three in the sideboard could help out a lot. However, someone else mentioned Diabolic Edict, which I do think is a viable sideboard option. Interestingly enough, it's also good against both DSC and Oath, while having the edge over Extraction in both instances because it works if you draw it after the threat is out, and costs 2 less and is instant. Its drawback against Oath, however, is that it's stalling, not a solution.

For reference -- and this is subject to change as more of your great ideas and justifications float in -- here is what I'm considering now:

//Creatures
2 Wretch
4 Shade
4 Negator
4 Hyppie

//Disruption
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Chalice
4 Hymn

//Broken
Consultation
Will/Necro/Will and Necro
Tutor

//Mana (27 listed above)

//Sideboard
3 Extraction/Edict
3 Contagion
3 Coffin Purge
2 Masticore
2 Wretch

I have considered Crucible, but feel that an overhaul into manlands and Nether Void or Sphere of Resistance is necessary to make a singleton Crucible more than a fairly useless card that sometimes creates a lock with one other card in the deck. Such an inclusion would also stretch my Tutor ability thin-- for instance, do I tutor for the Strip Mine, hoping to draw the Crucible or another tutor (I'd play Vampiric)? Without manlands, it seems like a very marginal minicombo that really just detracts from my deck's focus on a quick kill.

I really want to fit Necro back in, but can't find the room unless I ditch Will. The only reason to ditch Will would be that with a Chalice at 1, it's no great shakes until the endgame, and if we get to the endgame, well, I've lost already! But preChalice-for-1 it's still a monster, even if I'm just recurring a Strip effect and a disruption spell or two with a Ritual. The other thing is that if I do axe the Will, I could run Planar Voids somewhere, maybe 1 MD, 1 SB? Or something? Ach.

So far all that's happened maindeck is +2 Wretch, -2 Masticore, which I'm very happy about all around. I can stand not having a way to unload Rituals and Duresses under a Chalice for 1, if it means I have some game pre-board against graveyard manipulation. No other changes so far because I'm really hesitant to end the Hyppie/Hymn suite. Especially with Wretches in, it seems like these two cards (Hyppie, Hymn) constitute some of the only true card advantage this deck can generate.

As for Bob, I'm really torn. I understand his utility in a deck packing nothing over 3cc, and tons of land. That's not the issue. The issue is what do I take out that doesn't water me down? In decks with more utilty and singletons, draw like Brainstorm, AK, and Bob work because they riffle you through your deck looking for those silver bullets or singleton broken cards. But in my deck as it stands, Bob is a self-defeating choice-- by giving my deck the ability to see more of its threats/answers/disruption, it actually waters down the quality and/or quantity of that disruption. In other words, I am not interested in appraising cards in the abstract. I know that Bob is good in the abstract, in any game I play if I simply had him out for no cost, of course that's good. But he goes in for something, and until I can reason myself what that something is, and why it improves my overall strategy, I can't justify him. I still want to be quicker to the punch than more Nether Voidish or Chalice Blackish builds, otherwise I think Bob would be an auto-include. But I can't find room for him in a deck that wants to overrun with a creature kill turn 3 or 4 (or the equivalent or turn 3 or 4 when you treat Wastelands and Sinkholes as turn-eaters).

Jester's Cap is an interesting suggestion. I do have the manabase to support it, however--

(a) Null Rod negates it. There's a lot of Null Rod about.

(b) It costs as much as Cranial Extraction, but then costs 2 more (or another turn) to actually do anything. However, it's reusable. This brings up the issue-- how often do you want to remove more than one card-name? How often would Extraction be better because you want to remove 4 of something? Obviously you can go on removing things with the Cap, it's no drawback, but against Oath and DSC, the situations in question, I think Extraction is inarguably better because faster, which becomes really important when the two threats cost {1G} and {2U} respectively. Cap is for a more controllish deck that has the leisure time to lock you down first, then start Capping you off (heh). My deck relies on an early rush of disruption to just buy enough time for the win. Perhaps not as sound a strategy in total, but right now, that's what I'm sticking with. Thanks for the thought, though, I hadn't considered Jester's Cap.

Harlequin, you also recommended cutting Hyppies and 2 Hymn for 6 mana denial cards. I see the logic here. If pressed to this option, I would probably go for:

1 Crucible
3 Nether Void
4 Factories (2 in place of other creatures, or else I'd axe Hymn altogether)

I think that would be the best full-on mana-denial plan. The problem is, I then become Void. Which isn't a problem in the sense that that's a bad thing, it's just that that's not where I want to go right now-- I haven't made up my mind to go that route, because I'd like to see what I can pump out of the Legend Black/Chalice Black cross before I resign myself to failure.

And finally, a sideboard discussion--

So Dystopia is obsolete? I guess its best use in my old build was vs. Oath, but now I have Extraction/Edict? Also, maindecking Wretches helps against Oath, too, as I can remove Gaea's Blessing and Edicted creatures (Oath decks just run 2 or 3 creatures these days, right?). Still a very bad matchup, but I guess being Dystopia-less doesn't mean game over for me. What about decks that run Mystic Enforcer? I fear that guy bigtime.


Thanks again for all your help,
Eric

PS Those two decklists popped up while I was replying. Reconsidering Flesh Reaver as an inclusion and Nantuko Shade as an exclusion! . . .I need time to think. Thanks guys.

[Harlequin]

...
1 Crucible
3 Nether Void
4 Factories (2 in place of other creatures, or else I'd axe Hymn altogether)

I think that would be the best full-on mana-denial plan. The problem is, I then become Void. Which isn't a problem in the sense that that's a bad thing, it's just that that's not where I want to go right now-- I haven't made up my mind to go that route, because I'd like to see what I can pump out of the Legend Black/Chalice Black cross before I resign myself to failure.

As you imply, that would be the bare minimum for what I would change to add Nether Void.  A good start, at the skeleton.  To do it right, I would cut Nantuko's all together, cut the Wretches.  And add..
3 Skullsnatchers (good with manlands when void is in play, also gives you GY hate)
2 (+1) crucibles
keep 4 negators
2 Diabolic Edict on the main
1 Necro
1 Vamp
1 Imperial seal
0 Yawgmoth's will (is fairly terrible when you have Nether in play).


At that point you really do become NetherVoid.dec,  and if thats not your style - more power to ya.   



-- 700th post

[zeus-online]

-- 700th post

Grats

I have played nantuko shade alot...But oftenly it just sits there and beats for 2...its only good against burn spells and creature based decks (Stompy, Sligh, Goblins etc.) which are generally not played in Type 1.
Flesh reaver is alot more interesting, however:
Against combo, your lowering the amount of storm he needs by 2 each time you attack.
With dark confidant the life loss would most likely add up waaay too fast.

@ Jesters cap/Cranial extraction:
I think they're too slow, earliest use is turn 2 with a ritual, but generally speaking, i think its best to use that ritual turn 1 to do something, rather then just wait. Edicts wont help much against oath, but it will take out collosus until they've found will. Edicts wont exactly stop their deck from functioning, but it will atleast make sure that they cant just Tutor-> Tinker -> Win as frequent. Time is beats, beats is dead opponents, and dead opponents generally dosnt scare me

Skullsnatchers are interesting though, never thought of them. Wretch is probably better against CS though, and agains t dragon Wretch with 2 mana open means that they cant win without getting rid of him.

Gee, i wonder if we'll actually hit a good suicide deck ?

/Zeus

Edit: What was up with that quote thingy?

[Harlequin]

Skullsnatcher + Man Land + Nether Void is tech!!

As far as planar void is concerned.  I'm not sure why ppl are putting so high of a standard on it.  It doesn't need to single-handly shut off dragon or slaver or yawg... It just needs to hurt it.  Its only a single .  So I tend to think of it a bit like duress.  Its not going to win you the game alone, but it is a nessisary peice of disruption.  Skull Snatcher does a similar bit, in that it forces your opponent to use their graveyard the turn it goes in.  So Snatcher is weak against the card Gift's ungiven.  Planarvoid is very often just as good as LLotV when it comes to Gifts (because recoup and yawg are sorceries).  Also Dragon brings in needle to stop tormods/Furnace/Wretch etc... but it doesn't stop Void.  So they are forced to either wait until they can bounce it, or pay the extra mana for Necromancy.  PVoid also does a great job of hoseing Crucible of Worlds.  Perhaps a combination of PVoid to do the brunt work, and Skull Snatcher to pick up the turn 1, 2 and 3 pieces would be best.  Also did I mention that PVoid does a fine job of hosing Joten Grunt?

[MonoE]

Zeus, re: Nantuko Shade. He never sits there and beats for 2 for me. I mean, if you played him, you have two swamps out, right? I never Ritual him out, he's the last creature I play. As the game goes on, he goes from a good creature to broken. I'm talking against any deck. And he gives Suicide immediate game against aggro strategies, pre-board. Especially ones that use burn as removal-- if you can survive until you have {BBBBB} open (not that hard with Rituals), he's going to be pretty unstoppable, or else they're going to waste two spells on him. And you've got four of him. He's just as troublesome as Masticore against a deck packing burn.

But even against control, he's very good, as he addresses Suicide's main weakness (running out of things to do) perfectly. I don't find that his ability interferes with my disruption-- I'm perfectly content to Sinkhole and pump him twice rather than pump him four times, as the Sinkhole will net me a turn, or a land drop at least, which is probably going to help me out more than two damage.

Okay, I've decided for the time being to drop Hyppies and see if the deck can still cut it. I put a Planar Void into the sideboard to diversify my graveyard hate. I figure it'll go in for Yawgmoth's Will as the eighth hate card (3 Purge, 4 Wretch). I'm also running 4 Wretch maindeck now. And I found room for Necro--

//Creatures (12)
4 Shade
4 Negator
4 Wretch

//Disruption (16)
4 Chalice
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

//Broken (4)
1 Yawgmoth's Win
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

//Mana (28)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
17 Swamp

//Sideboard
3 Contagion
3 Coffin Purge
3 Dystopia
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Masticore
1 Planar Void

Some SB strategies I have in mind here--

(a) + 1 Planar Void; - 1 Yawgmoth's Will wherever the GY hate of the Void would help me more than the extra disruption potential of the Will. Oath, Dragon, Ichorid. Others?

(b) - 4 Sinkhole, - 1 Necro; + 3 Contagion, + 2 Masticore seems to be my basic aggro sideboarding strategy, if the aggro deck is monocolored or if I'm willing to forego the mana denial plan in favor of running the board. This is something I think about. The more straight-aggro aggro the deck is, the more I'd sideboard like this; whereas if they have higher-mana cards I'm scared of down the road, I can't afford to play safer and slower, and I'd rethink this strategy.

(c) + 3 Coffin Purge, + 1 Planar Void, - 1 Yawgmoth's Will, - 3 Hymn is my maximum graveyard hate maneuver. For Dragon, Ichorid.

(d) + 3 Diabolic Edict, + 3 Dystopia, + 1 Planar Void; - 1 Yawgmoth's Will, -4 Sinkhole, -2 Hymn would be my Oath strategy (read: prayer).

(e) Against COP:Black, ROP:Black, Story Circle, Worship, other nasty green/white enchantments, I go + 2 Masticore, +3 Dystopia, and what I take out depends on the deck-- usually Masticore will go in for 2 Wretch; and Dystopia can easily go in for Chalice if Chalice doesn't happen to work that well.

(f) Against a deck packing Tinker --> DSC, I sub in 3 Diabolic Edict for 3 Hymn or 3 Sinkhole, whichever works less effectively or whichever strategy is safer to abandon.


I would really dig some of your insight into sideboarding. I haven't been playing this whole SB thing for very long, I'm not used to the strategies although I have a good idea of it in theory. My main problems don't arise with building the 'board, but with actually swapping the cards. I often find that lots of the SB cards would be effective, and don't know which to utilize. I know that you try to SB into strategies, not cards, but that's hard when this deck is so single-minded. Anyhow, thanks.

Eric

[Implacable]

Zeus, re: Nantuko Shade. He never sits there and beats for 2 for me. I mean, if you played him, you have two swamps out, right? I never Ritual him out, he's the last creature I play. As the game goes on, he goes from a good creature to broken...  But even against control, he's very good, as he addresses Suicide's main weakness (running out of things to do) perfectly.

As for Bob, I'm really torn. I understand his utility in a deck packing nothing over 3cc, and tons of land. That's not the issue. The issue is what do I take out that doesn't water me down? In decks with more utilty and singletons, draw like Brainstorm, AK, and Bob work because they riffle you through your deck looking for those silver bullets or singleton broken cards. But in my deck as it stands, Bob is a self-defeating choice-- by giving my deck the ability to see more of its threats/answers/disruption, it actually waters down the quality and/or quantity of that disruption.

These two paragraphs are contradictory.  You say that the Shade is good in the long game, which is why you play it, and that Dark Confidant is good in the long game, which is why you don't.  Confidant is clearly the superior card of the two, and utilizes the extra black mana that you have available in the long game by actually disrupting, instead of just doing more damage.  Therefore, why don't you run Confidant over Shade?

[zeus-online]

The last thing i ever want to spend my mana on is pumping the shade. Disrupting my opponent or playing additional beaters is way more important then dealing 1-4 extra damage.

/Zeus

[[supa_t(im)]]

Any extra mana you have should be put into removing cards with Wretch.

I also definitely agree that Bob should be here.  One of Sui's main problems was that it ran out of gas fairly quickly.  It also doesn't have the greatest topdecks because your discard has a tendency to be less than stellar after the early game.  Bob helps to fix both of these problems.  By drawing 2 cards a turn you draw into more beaters, as well as more disruptive elements like waste or strip.

Why isn't null rod in there again?  Chalice is good at stopping power, but null rod can serve the purpose of stopping memory jar, slaver, sol ring, and mana vault (there are others, but those are the most threatening IMO).

[Gaea2]

Unfortunately I have not been able to do much testing against top tier decks over the last year or so.  That being said, looking at many of the results from top tournaments (Waturbury, Rochester, etc..), Suicide black seems like a very solid choice in today's metagame.  Suicide traditionally rolled over control, aggro control and had the best game you could expect from aggro against combo (not that this means much).

I think the most critical shift in type one since the days when suicide was considered a legitimate option has been the introduction of fetchlands, which since GAT, have been critical to the success of most top tier decks.  Aggro decks were hurt most by fetchlands because their mana denial strategies became less effective.  I think in order to make the most of Suicide today, one or more colors has to be splashed, limiting yourself to one color when fetchlands can smooth any mana base is a mistake.

I have been tinkering with a Suicide deck that used a white splash, for Jotun Grunt, Kataki and Swords.   Jotun Grunt fits well with the suicide creature strategy, and considering the abundance of discard, fetchlands and cheap cantrips, it should have no problem hitting for 8-12 damage.  Against some decktypes the Grunt can end the game on its own.  Suicide also suffers greatly in the stax matchup because of black's lack of artifact removal, which Kataki and white in general helps alleviate.  Swords stops Collosus, and can be applied to enough other matchups to justify 1-2 maindeck spots.

Nantuko Shade, Phyrexian Negator and Dark Confidant should round out the creature base.  Shade and Negator end games in a hurry, and are the reason why this deck should have the advantage in a metgame of 2/2's for 2.  Fish are not fast enough to stop either fatty, and burn has left the meta completely.  Confidant is also an excellent gift for the deck, providing needed spells while not slowing the clock.  A friend of mine used to use Phyrexian Arena with very good results, and this is vastly superior.

I am still not set on a preffered set of disruption.  Duress is an obvious four of, and I also like four Hymns.  I think that Sinkhole however is a mistake.  It can no longer be used to effectively shut off a particular color and is too slow to stop anything in today's type one.  I would still encourage mana denial through Sphere of Resistance and Trinishphere, cards which are far more effective against storm and cantripy decks in general.

I don't have a very good list right now, but just some thoughts I have been working with.

[meadbert]

I have found that Chainer's Edict is better than Diabolic Edict.  It is only sorcery speed but Sui Black does not leave BB open during an oponent's turn often.  The main reason I prefer Chainer's Edict is Misdirection.  This frequently shows up in decks that run DSC and Chainer's Edict cannot be misdirected to you.

[oneofchaos]

It seems cranial extraction is a bit expensive, no?  Even in this deck, your putting all your eggs in 1 basket to resolve it as you need to power it out early before your opponent drops what your trying to extract.  Correct me if I'm wrong of course, as I don't play sui, i'm a sligh guy 

(If you want my terrible challice sligh build, i'll get you a list)

[TopSecret]

     If you are still torn about how to fit in Confidant without watering down the deck,
  perhaps you could:

 -1 Demonic Tutor
 -1 Demonic Consultation
 -1 Necropotence
 -1 Yawgmoth's Will

 +4 Confidant

     It looks like this would make your deck more consistant.
The cards you would be taking out help you with card selection and quantity.
Confidant does this just as well, if not better. And, he beats down.

     Just my two cents.
     Good luck!

[rmn]

We all know that Confidant is strong, and I'm sure many of us agree that it would be better than Shade in this deck.  What I've been noticing more and more, however, is the existence of a large core of players who simply and irrationally dislike Confidant.  I'm one of these, and perhaps our eloquent friend here is as well.

Face it, he's irritating.  Lots of decks that used to be awesome for playing no creatures now have to play this stupid 2/1 which ten years of intuition tells us has no place there.  Way to ruin the coolness factor.  The idea that it's pegged as a card for control decks ruins it for the aggro-control and aggro people too.

And the icing on the cake is that really, really horrible picture.  I do NOT want Bob sitting next to my awesone-looking Hippies, Shades, Wretches, and god forbid Nether Voids.

Those of us like me who find ourselves completely unable to get over it find ourselves avoiding decks like CAL in Type 2 or 5-color Stax.  Frankly, once I realize that a deck would be better with Confidant in it, I just scrap it and find a different deck.  I know it's irrational, but that sure isn't going to stop me.

[MonoE]

Thanks again, guys. More thoughts.

Zeus, re: Nantuko Shade. He never sits there and beats for 2 for me. I mean, if you played him, you have two swamps out, right? I never Ritual him out, he's the last creature I play. As the game goes on, he goes from a good creature to broken...  But even against control, he's very good, as he addresses Suicide's main weakness (running out of things to do) perfectly.

As for Bob, I'm really torn. I understand his utility in a deck packing nothing over 3cc, and tons of land. That's not the issue. The issue is what do I take out that doesn't water me down? In decks with more utilty and singletons, draw like Brainstorm, AK, and Bob work because they riffle you through your deck looking for those silver bullets or singleton broken cards. But in my deck as it stands, Bob is a self-defeating choice-- by giving my deck the ability to see more of its threats/answers/disruption, it actually waters down the quality and/or quantity of that disruption.

These two paragraphs are contradictory.  You say that the Shade is good in the long game, which is why you play it, and that Dark Confidant is good in the long game, which is why you don't.  Confidant is clearly the superior card of the two, and utilizes the extra black mana that you have available in the long game by actually disrupting, instead of just doing more damage.  Therefore, why don't you run Confidant over Shade?

I don't think the paragraphs are contradictory except from a very superficial standpoint. Now, I do favor Shade in particular because of his endgame efficiency. And, alongside that, I do concede that, given the right deck, Confidant also works well in the long game. However, I definitely think replacing Shade with Confidant is a big mistake. The main reason Confidant is good lategame is because he allows you to draw into more threats. Now this deck has 8 big threats. Changing four of those for a much smaller creature whose main purpose is to draw into more threats is self-defeating. Do you see? You can't speak of which of the two is more superior in the abstract like that, because one is a big beater and one is just a set-up card for a big beater-- the setup card's superiority rests on the quality and quantity of beaters in the deck he's in. However, if I could find a way to fit Bob in in addition to my threats, without watering down the deck, then I would. A hypothetical:

(a) One spot could certainly be a Wretch slot-- I could go 3 Wretch and, with 4 Bob (other slots found somehow) and 2 Tutors, not fear that I wouldn't draw into him.

(b) One spot could certainly be Necro's spot.

That much is very doable, in my opinion. Now some other ideas--

(c?) One Shade spot. This puts more pressure on each Shade to last long enough to deal two attacks' worth of pumped-up damage-- i.e. makes Shade a much more valuable card to me, and minimizes the amount of time I have one out and one in hand. But the same logic applies here that applied to Wretch-- putting in a Bob makes me draw the Shade more anyway.

(d?) Demonic Consultation? If I make two four-ofs into three-ofs, its utility goes down a bit. It would still be great in that deck, but it is, in my opinion, the weakest card in the deck now (which is ridiculous, considering how broken it is in a deck with four-ofs!). 50% of the reason it's in is that it's great to have another one-drop as assurance against the "Swamp, go" play of the sort of deck Oscar Tan calls Limp Black. I don't want to be Limp Black.

This would also bring me to my original creature count, 14. I like that.

So that would mean (hypothetically):

//Creatures (14)
4 Negator
4 Bob
3 Wretch
3 Shade

//Disruption (16)
4 Chalice
4 Hymn
4 Hole
4 Duress

//Broken
1 Tutor
1 Will

//Mana (28 as above)

I can work with that. Now, of course, I must get Bobs! But yeah. One thing I am happy about in putting in Confidant is that he uses one resource that, ironically enough, my version/versions of Suicide haven't been using-- life. Old Sui decks utilized life with Necro (as a 4-of! Oh, the days) and then Flesh Reaver and sometimes Hatred. But with Flesh Reaver's dubious utility in a metagame with more possible chump blockers than I think people are giving credit (still not sold on the Reaver, sorry-- lots of junk aggro where I'm from), Suicide or Legend Black went a while without more than one card (Necro) maindeck that eats at my life! In a deck using life as a resource, I had begun to think that this was unacceptable. Anyhow, I might try the above list.

@Rmn: Maybe that irrational dislike is behind my antipathy as well. I do loathe his picture. Thanks for giving me a chuckle.

@oneofchaos: Yeah, we've scrapped the Extraction idea.

@Gaea2: You have a lot of interesting things to say about Suicide and the metagame in general. I really like Kataki, and Grunt could certainly work in the right metagame (and smart metagaming is pretty much what Suicide's efficiency rests in). Swords solves lots of problems.

@meadbert: Chainer's Edict can be Misdirected as well, no?

@supa_t(im): I am still going to play Shades, for the time being, but will try to fit Bob in.


Thanks again, this advice is gold,

Eric

[meadbert]

@meadbert: Chainer's Edict can be Misdirected as well, no?

Indeed.  I meant to say Cruel Edict.  I believe it says target opponent so it could only be misdirected back to himself.

[MonoE]

Heh. Cheers. You had me reconsidering whether I knew anything about those cards. I frantically rechecked Chainer's for target opponent and Misd. for target instant spell or something.

Now that's an interesting thought-- is the Misdirection edge worth sorcery speed? I think a provocative way to rephrase this is-- which, precisely, are the situations where instant speed is an advantage? I don't think the only issue is leaving mana open, because instants during your turn are still better than sorceries during your turn.

I can't think of many specific game situations, but I would think the instant speed bonus outweighs Cruel Edict's usefulness against a single card that few decks play more than three of. Not to mention that my deck already has plenty of Misdirection targets-- 8 in Sinkhole and Hymn. I'll already be playing around Misdirection by (a) Duressing it away, or (b) baiting it out with a Sinkhole while holding a Hymn. So although I'm aware of it for a completely different reason, I tend to think the chances of a Misdirection going unplayed or undiscarded into the late game are fairly small. And my Magic intuition tells me that instant speed is always a good thing, for a variety of situations which may require responsive maneuvers, so to speak.

That said, the decks I'm bringing Edicts in against tend to run Misd.-- Oath runs it sometimes, and Tinker--DSC decks can often be counted on for 1, 2, or even 3 copies maindeck, and sometimes more in the side.


Eric

[Zarathustra]

We all know that Confidant is strong, and I'm sure many of us agree that it would be better than Shade in this deck.  What I've been noticing more and more, however, is the existence of a large core of players who simply and irrationally dislike Confidant.  I'm one of these, and perhaps our eloquent friend here is as well.

Face it, he's irritating.  Lots of decks that used to be awesome for playing no creatures now have to play this stupid 2/1 which ten years of intuition tells us has no place there.  Way to ruin the coolness factor.  The idea that it's pegged as a card for control decks ruins it for the aggro-control and aggro people too.

And the icing on the cake is that really, really horrible picture.  I do NOT want Bob sitting next to my awesone-looking Hippies, Shades, Wretches, and god forbid Nether Voids.

Those of us like me who find ourselves completely unable to get over it find ourselves avoiding decks like CAL in Type 2 or 5-color Stax.  Frankly, once I realize that a deck would be better with Confidant in it, I just scrap it and find a different deck.  I know it's irrational, but that sure isn't going to stop me.

I'm gonna have to step in.  I have no idea why you or anyone for that matter is saying Confidant shouldn't be played.  I can't figure out why you say he shouldn't be played in control decks.  I also can't fathom why the art... of all things, makes you not want to play him.  He's being played for a reason.  Good players play with good cards.

Now...  onto bigger fish.

Why not just play something like The Sullivan Solution.  It has all the necessary components.  Confidants and Cutpurses gain you card advantage.  While Erayo and Meddling Mage can lock the board.  Stifle can even be your Sinkholes(Stifling Fetchlands is hot).

Besides, adding more colors gives you better ways of dealing with problem cards.  And you have better game against the field.

[rmn]

I'm gonna have to step in.  I have no idea why you or anyone for that matter is saying Confidant shouldn't be played.  I can't figure out why you say he shouldn't be played in control decks.  I also can't fathom why the art... of all things, makes you not want to play him.  He's being played for a reason.  Good players play with good cards.

That's not actually what I said.  I said that he should be played, but I'm not going to.

[GUnit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any mention of mesmeric fiend yet. I know he's a slow beater, but he's basically just a two mana duress... that happens to attack for one every turn, so you could justify sliding him into a creature spot or a disruption spot. He's at least worth consideration while you're building the creature base.

Also, Dark Confidant + Chains is wicked.

[meadbert]

I can't think of many specific game situations, but I would think the instant speed bonus outweighs Cruel Edict's usefulness against a single card that few decks play more than three of.

There are plenty of situations.  Frequently Gifts can go eot Gifts, then Timewalk, Recoup->Will, Will, Tinker->DSC.  Then follow the next turn by Recouping Time Walk and just winning.

Only instant speed removal can save you from that situation.

Also versus Oath Instant speed means they get one less swing.

I have found that Edicts are not particularly effective against Oath since they can get their creatures back and they keep coming out.

In my eyes SS is the new Suicide Black.  Figuring out that Stifle is basically a cheaper Sinkhole was the key tech.