Chalice/Sui

[MonoE]

Mesmeric Fiend has no place here. He is worse than all my creatures despite his ability, because he's tiny. He's even worse than Hyppie which, being fifth on creature depth now, has come out of the deck! He is also worse than any of the disruption, unless we take the deck in a new direction. Honestly, his being a 1/1 is about 10% "my opponent takes one damage a turn" and 90% "making a Duress permanently counterable with a Flare."

I think it's unfair to call Stifle the new Sinkhole. Lots of people play fetches, and I'm sure it will almost always have a target in that regard, but as far as mana denial goes it's an even worse topdeck than Sinkhole was. Now granted, it has other uses, so it doesn't suck as a topdeck. But I can't count the number of times I've drawn into a second or third turn Sinkhole and was able to use it right away. Now, I draw a Stifle and . . . wait, with a possibly dead card in my hand?

I think Stifle can be used effectively to deny mana. I think Stifle also has a myriad of other very useful applications. However, as a proactive, disruptive card it is worse than Sinkhole because it can't be used after the fact (the fetching); as a reactive, controllish card, it's plenty useful. I just think that comparing them doesn't make sense because the use of Stifle and blue in general basically makes this deck want to sit back on its haunches. And I'm not arguing that that's not good in its way, or possibly a better option in this metagame now. But they're by no means the same deck. I mean, once you can FoW something, the need for early mana denial and card denial goes down, and you can run ridiculously fragile creature-bases like 4 Confidant, 4 Cutpurse.

Eric

[GUnit]

Mesmeric Fiend has no place here. He is worse than all my creatures despite his ability, because he's tiny. He's even worse than Hyppie which, being fifth on creature depth now, has come out of the deck! He is also worse than any of the disruption, unless we take the deck in a new direction. Honestly, his being a 1/1 is about 10% "my opponent takes one damage a turn" and 90% "making a Duress permanently counterable with a Flare."

I think it's unfair to call Stifle the new Sinkhole. Lots of people play fetches, and I'm sure it will almost always have a target in that regard, but as far as mana denial goes it's an even worse topdeck than Sinkhole was. Now granted, it has other uses, so it doesn't suck as a topdeck. But I can't count the number of times I've drawn into a second or third turn Sinkhole and was able to use it right away. Now, I draw a Stifle and . . . wait, with a possibly dead card in my hand?

I think Stifle can be used effectively to deny mana. I think Stifle also has a myriad of other very useful applications. However, as a proactive, disruptive card it is worse than Sinkhole because it can't be used after the fact (the fetching); as a reactive, controllish card, it's plenty useful. I just think that comparing them doesn't make sense because the use of Stifle and blue in general basically makes this deck want to sit back on its haunches. And I'm not arguing that that's not good in its way, or possibly a better option in this metagame now. But they're by no means the same deck. I mean, once you can FoW something, the need for early mana denial and card denial goes down, and you can run ridiculously fragile creature-bases like 4 Confidant, 4 Cutpurse.

Eric

The fiend suggestion is not based on my personal testing, but I will say that I've only seen one suicide deck (of many) do well in the past four or so vintage tournaments I've been to, and it's done so consistently. That deck ran it.

RE: fragility of the creature base, I think maybe you're forgetting the part of phyrexian negator that doesn't say "5/5" or "trample". Jotun Grunt is going to help lead fish even closer to a top tier deck (and thus make it a more common appearance) and you can be guaranteed to see him waiting by the flagpole for your gator after school.

RE: stifle vs. sinkhole, the most important use of the mana denial is to gain tempo anyway, so you should be mainly concerned with what you can do in the first three turns, where stifle is likely extremely useful. If you make it to the late game a sinkhole topdeck on one of your opponent's many lands, or against your opponent who has 5 brown manasources on the table, may have little to no effect, whereas the stifle could be used to stop a jar, a slaver, an oath activation for the turn you need to finish off your opponent, etc., etc., etc. It really depends on the deck you play against and how the first few turns of the game go.

[MonoE]

Since when does dying to a 4/4 count as fragility? And Negator doesn't die, he makes me sac 4 things. Often, this is worse, but if I am going to win next turn, or if removing the Grunt otherwise locks up the game, it's irrelevant.

It can even be part of my sideboarding strategy to minimize cards in graveyard-- +1 Planar Void, +3 Coffin Purge; -4 Hymn. And Wretch answers Grunt nicely.

I don't doubt that Mesmeric Fiend worked well in whatever deck you're talking about. I guess substituting Fiends for Hymns would be the most logical choice, sacrificing card advantage for selection and working well with the graveyard hate plan. I just can't see it, though. For one extra specific Hymn gives you an entire extra card, permanently. Wretches (and Purges and a P. Void post-board) are there to clean up the leavings. Especially with Hyppie gone, I don't think the deck can afford to further water down its attack on its opponent's hand. Maybe this Sui deck ran Hyppies? Wherever did it find the room?

Re: Stifle/Sinkhole. Okay, having one in your opening hand, Stifle > Sinkhole, especially on the play. But you seem to dichotomize the game into early and late, leaving no room for late-early game and early-mid game, and mid game. I'm basically talking about turns two through five, let's say. Sinkhole is such a better topdeck there, because you keep the pressure up, answering his land drop with land destruction. Whereas Stifle practically buys him another turn, because it doesn't affect a land until the next turn after you draw it, if he happens to play [/i]and[/i] activate a fetch on that turn. Most players are smart enough to crack the fetches only when they need the mana. That means that you are keeping open for at least two full turns (yours, upon drawing it, and your opponent's . . . then two more, if he played a fetch and didn't crack it, or didn't play a fetch). Sounds more like your opponent's the one gaining tempo there.

Like I said before, I'm coming at this from Suicide's standpoint. Sui is a proactive deck. Leaving open for a few turns doesn't affect SS's tempo because SS has FoW and quick searchability (Brainstorm, predominantly).

[Ben Kossman]

If your going to run tutors then one or two copies of Umezawa's Jitte would be excellent for plenty of reasons. It's a stronger card than Masticore in my opinion. I've got to agree that Confidant is too good not to run as well. Here's how I would run the deck...

Artifact:10
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice
1 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Black:29
4 Phyrexian Negator (So awesome)
4 Withered Wretch
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Confidant
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Dark Ritual

Land:21
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
16 Swamp

Originally I built the MD around the tutors but after looking at some decklists on Morphling.de and taking advice from people in this forum I opted to go for consistency over versatility. Access to tutors in game two on the other hand is priceless. They make it possible to bring in and search out hate versus a given deck and really hose certain matchups

Sideboard
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Chains of Mephistopholes
4 Null Rod
4 Diabolic Edict

I think mono-black is viable if one abandons all assumptions about what should be played and adapts it to today's metagame. I can definitely see it beating Gifts. Stax and Tendrils are a bit iffier but still winnable with a couple of properly
played Therapies and duress's.

I also saw a fully powered Tendrils/Confidant version that also used Negator as a backup win condition. It looked kind of cool as well...

[MonoE]

Basically, our builds differ only in

+1 Demonic Tutor
+ 4 Sinkhole

- 3 Umezawa's Jitte
- 1 Withered Wretch
- 1 Nantuko Shade

And Moxen/Lotus for Swamps/Petal.

So your build has more creatures, which works well with Jitte and facilitates Therapy. You've effectively gotten rid of 2 or my 3 {BB} spells, which, if you don't lose any of their power, is an improvement, especially in regards to Confidant. You can't Chalice for 1 as freely, though.

I don't really understand the tutors in the board, when the rest of the board is composed of three playsets. It seems like one Dem. Tutor in the main along with some smart mulliganing, and Confidant, should ensure that you see any one of those hate cards in any game where you've put in all four. It would make more sense to me to run those three tutors if the rest of your sideboard were six two-ofs, or three two-ofs and six singletons.

Therapy vs. Hymn is still a coinflip. Lower cc, less life loss with Confidant, possibility of hitting more than one card VS definitely hitting two cards, more life loss with Confidant, higher cc (which is good or bad, depending on the Chalice situation).

But Sinkhole vs. more creatures is an interesting one. I don't really know how to compare your 16 creatures, Jitte'd lineup to my 14 creatures, Sinkholed. I mean, I think your opponent's threats/answers would get out of hand with your deck just a little quicker than against mine, but you do have more creatures, so if what s/he's playing are creatures, your deck is probably better (Jitte). But what if it's the old aggro v control matchup, and you just desperately need that extra turn to beat with a Negator? I feel like you lose that-- even though Jitte can give +4/+4 in such an instance, that's four mana you've paid, which itself negates the added beat. So, in total, I think you've improved the aggro matchup considerably by putting a Masticoreish card maindeck, but that you'll find it more difficult to subdue control or race/disrupt combo. You've got Chains and Rods out of the sideboard, true. But it seems like you weaken yourself against control and combo to the point where you sacrifice every other coinflip or unfavorable matchup that isn't affected by your three SB bombs-- Oath and Ichorid come to mind.

For reference, I've changed a few things in my SB. I'm now running--

//Creatures
4 Bob
4 Negator
3 Wretch
3 Shade

//Disruption
4 Chalice
4 Hymn
4 Hole
4 Duress

//Broken
Will
Tutor

//Mana 28

//SB
3 Contagion
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Coffin Purge
2 Dystopia
2 Null Rod
2 Masticore
1 Planar Void


Eric

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I would play Null Rod + Chalice, the both of them together are so unbelievably powerful. You can freely Chalice for one, since the only card effected is Duress since Dark Ritual is probably useless by then.

[MonoE]

Do you mean maindeck? What do you propose cutting?

I like Null Rod, too, it's just that I find there's only 4 slots for an artifact that disrupts in this deck, without cutting the creature count and making it more controllish-- in which case Sphere of Resistance would be my first choice.

But I'd like to hear your choice for two or three slots for Null Rod, and your reasoning.

Thanks,
Eric

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

This was the last build I was happy with, I eventually scrapped the plan because too often I was overwhelmed with my opponent being on the play, and not being able to keep up.

1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
13x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus

4x Duress
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Chalice Of The Void
3x Chains Of Mephistopheles
3x Null Rod
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Vampiric Tutor

4x Dark Confidant
4x Negator
4x Hyppie
2x Withered Wretch

SB:
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Contagion
3x Sphere Of Resistance
1x Diabolic Edict

The rest of the sideboard I never really figured out.

I cut Sinkhole since the face Fetchlands and Crucibles are everywhere, rendering them useless.
Nantuko Shade has been an underperformer. Too often racing with this deck is just impossible. The use of mana for him every turn makes him rather annoying. Especially early game when you are throwing discard and can only beat for two. How generic.

[MonoE]

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting to see that more than a few people have similar builds of this Chalice/Sui thingy. I have a few questions about the mechanics of your list.

(1) How did such a low Swamp count work out for you?

(2) How was Chains? Obviously good, but worth cutting Sinkholes?

(3) Without part of your mana denial package, was 3 Spheres out of the board still an effective strategy?

(4) How did you handle the graveyard? I see 2 MD Wretches. What would you bring in against, say, Ichorid? Dragon? You have one more tutor than me, but one fewer Wretch. Could you find him when you needed him game 1?

(5) What's the plan against Oath?


re: Chains v Sinkhole: I like the deck's ability to cut off mana or mana-screw opponents, which goes way down when you've only got 4 Waste, 1 Strip. I know Crucible and fetches are everywhere, but as for the first, I can side into whatever would be better against the deck than Sinkhole; and as for the second, I think the point has been overstated a bit. Yes, they're everywhere, but people also play with 'real' lands to fetch, oftentimes actually drawing said lands. Also, if they ever plan to use those fetches, they'd better crack them eventually, and when they do -- Sinkhole. Of course, this is not optimal as it makes me wait a whole turn to use it, but this isn't as big a problem as it sounds. If I have a hand where my only turn 2 play (turn 1 w/accel.) is Sinkhole, I should not have kept it. My deck runs 19 2cc spells, not counting Chalice for 1.

That said, Chains/Confidant is nasty. It seems like a case of weakening the deck in general to improve bya good margin a bunch of matches. So the metagame matters a lot in that decision.

Eric

[Ben Kossman]

I usually think more in terms of Chalicing for 0 since I'm playing an unpowered deck versus people I expect to be packing a full set of Moxen. I think Jitte is verstile enough to run multiples of particularly when one considers the problems welder presents for this deck if allowed to survive. Admittedly Darkblast is more efficient but Jitte turns any creature you draw into a game ending threat if left unchecked and really alters the game versus a number of decks such as Tendrils since you could realistically gain 4-8 life and maybe get another turn. And even though I hate to say it and fully understand that you'll defend them till your last breath but the sinkholes are sub-optimal in Vintage. You'd be in better shape running Null Rod before you spent 2 Black mana getting rid of one land. With Wasteland/Strip Mine and possibly even Crucible available there's no reason to pay mana getting rid of a land. Other than that you're in good shape. Hymn is a judgement call I just like being able to Ritual, Therapy/Duress, and play Shade/Bob/Wretch turn 1 but If I knew I was playing combo I would play them all day.

[MonoE]

I understand where you're coming from on Sinkhole. It's clunky. But I run it because it has very high potential in combination with the other cards in the deck. Since every deck craves mana, mana-screwing someone is so very awesome. To get into a situation where I have three lands out and I've just Sunk my opponent's last land, and then to watch him/her topdeck a non-mana card . . .

I suggest that, specific matchups aside (speaking in general), Sinkhole is a terrible card 10% of the time; a bad card 30% of the time; a decent card another 10%, say; a good card 30% of the time; and a practically game-winning good card 20% of the time. It's because of the last 20% that it's worth running-- there are certainly other cards that are good close to 100% of the time. However, these cards are never game-winners. Sinkhole is also just as good for intimidation factor-- it forces mulligans on hands that opponents facing nonSinkhole decks would gladly keep.

Simpy put, my rationale is that one of the three is true for each Sinkhole--

(1) Sinkhole is excellent, sealing the game or generating unrecoverable tempo for me.

(2) Sinkhole is a terrible card, which may as well read "BB : Lose your turn."

(3) Sinkhole is this vanilla waste-of-a-deck-space card, that sort of negates its own created tempo by costing too much or eating up my turn.

Now I've already said that I think (1) happens thrice as often as (2) with this deck. This deck is made to maximize (1). As for (3), it happens twice as often as the other two combined, in my estimation, which is what, I think, generates your overall feeling that there are lots of better choices. Now my contention is that the benefits of (1) outweigh the more consistently flavorless (3) output and the detrimental (2) output combined. I just think that when it's good, it's that good.

Not that any of this is 'true,' it's just how I look at it. And how I play the deck.

Eric

[MonoE]

Does Contagion still work in the SB, considering Confidant hurts for 5? The only other option seems to be Darkblast. Darkblast is much worse with Chalice; however, it only deals 1 off Confidant, and you can Dredge a Confidant draw for various reasons. Darkblast also doesn't affect power as much, which matters when I"m trying to run over a somewhat decent-sized creature with a Negator. Or buying a turn vs. DSC.

Contagion also puts Chaliced cards to use. Ack.

Eric

[Seregrauko]

Hi Drainers!

This thread sure has developed fast!!

Ive been thinking a lot of what to play lately, I just got home from 6 months out of the country. So now Ive got time for cards again..

I thought of TMWA. A R/W/b build (with Seek and Darkblast). But now Im thinking B/W/r. I understand that people are a lot more sceptic of a 3c aggro decks in the, so to speak, “international meta”??

I cant see why you should make a monocolored Sui deck. Besides mana stability. Why not utilize white, which has some awesome answers and critters. I don’t think a white splash would damage the consistency..

R in TMWA doesn’t contributes with anything that broken besides Pyropillar, which is an aweseome card. Other than that its mostly artifact hate, and I think that Sui can handle this just as well as TMWA. If you have both Jotun Grunts and Negators in a deck you have some serious whoop-ass possibilities. And if you can make Sui handle the artifacts just as well as TMWA you win a lot of other nice hate cards and critters. Especially Confidant!

Ive been looking a lot at Hide/Seek. I think it’s a great card with some nice hate-potential.
I thought about making B/W Sui with a couple of fetches and duals to make it possible to use the Hide-part of Hide/Seek. This makes a decent DSC answer!
Im not sure of the total creaturebase, though Im sure I would use Confidant (sorry, Bob?), Grunt, a couple of Negator and perhaps a few Kataki. Swords maindeck and Hide/Seek as well. Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing could have a place I SB. For me it looks like white has something to offer to Sui.
I would also consider Chains, it seems nice with the Confidant and it should stop combo as Pyropillar does in TMWA.

But whats your idea on splashing R for the full use of Hide/Seek?? Is it worth it?


Lars Petersen

[Korhil]

A SuiBlack thread that hasn't yet been either locked or moved

re comments about Sinkhole.
If you've made the decision to play SuiBlack - play it - don't turn the deck into something else.
If you'd rather play a Black Fish variant, thats fine as well, but this thread is titled 'Sui'
Sinkhole is one of those cards that makes the deck 'be' a SuiBlack deck.
Sinkhole is weak vs MisD, and some of the Combo decks are playing MisD's main atm.
However, if you expect a tournament to have lots of Combo, and your turn up with SuiBlack, it's a fair indication that you are there to play for fun.

re contagion vs darkblast
Darkblast is the better card to run now. Deals with Welder all the same, and is reusable vs aggro. Thats helpful in a deck thats removal light.

Some form of GY hate is needed maindeck, run 4 Wretch if nothing else.

Most important thing to keep in mind with any SuiBlack deck, is to make sure it still Sui, else you'll lose the elements of fun that likely made you want to play it in the first place

---Korhil

[MonoE]

Well, I'm not opposed to a challenge to Sinkhole. I don't want to include cards simply because tradition mandates them. But I happen to like Sinkhole in the deck.

As for its weakness v. Misdirection, it's not an issue. Why? Because Misdirected Hymns are much more of a problem, so you often use Sinkholes to bait out Misds. if you don't have the Duress. And if you think about it, it's not card disadvantage (2-for-2 trade). This deck runs a lot of mana, because the early game is most important, and because Negator hurts sometimes, so a Misdirected Sinkhole is quite recoverable.

Re: weakness against Combo, well, 4x Chalice of the Void help a lot. I know they're no lock, but Chalice for zero is still a very strong move on the play against any deck, and is still a great option on the draw against Moxen/Lotus/LED/Petal-abusing combo. Chalice for one is also the sort of play I make as soon as I possibly, as I almost always cut off more cards for my opponent than for me.

Re: graveyard hate, I've got 3x Wretch mainboard, with the prospect of siding in 3x Coffin Purge and 1x Planar Void. Along with the disruption strategy in general (Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Chalice), which is no fun for any deck, I feel this gives Sui game against combo-- about as good game as you can expect from aggro. Suicide's big weakness has always been jank/unexpected aggro (embarrassing); anything with a good amount of direct damage; and finely-tuned fast aggro, especially packing fast artifacts that aren't susceptible to Null Rod (Workshop, and it used to be Sligh in the pre-Chalice days).

Contagion v Darkblast. So far I'm sticking with Contagion. Welder is not the only concern here-- Darkblast isn't combat manipulation to the extent that Contagion is; Darkblast doesn't pitch Chaliced cards; and Darkblast can't be played under a Chalice at 1, which this deck right now loves to do. I just think I can stand the possibility of taking 5 damage in a turn, especially since the matchups where I'm siding in Contagion tend to be those in which I'm siding out Negators. I like the Darkblast/Confidant trick, as well as Darkblast's low cc, but Chalicing at one is too good a turn 1/turn 2 play (before I even now, perhaps, whether I have a Darkblast coming up). As for the Mana Drain issue, I would think twice before siding Contagion in against these decks; and they tend to not be the decks I would want to do so against anyhow. Anyway, to wrap up, I think Contagion's extra versatility and ability to work with Chalice and Chaliced cards is the eventual winner. Darkblast was great for Pikula because his main metagame concern is Goblins, where the low toughness is the biggest concern, and where a recurring threat is needed. In Vintage, there are very few decks that swarm with x/1's and x/2's besides Fish, and my Fish SBing is +3 Contagion, +2 Masticore, as I hope to just keep the same decklist and overrun them with my big creatures. Darkblast would be better in that matchup, yes, but Contagion is better in pretty much any other, as well as going a long way in the 'unexpected/jank aggro' matchup.


Does anyone have any ideas as to how to fit in a fourth Wretch maindeck? I have been drawing him consistently, with a three-of maindeck plus Confidant draw power, but oftentimes if my opponent counters one he gets a two or three-turn window to abuse the graveyard game one, if that's his deck's 'thing.' For reference, my current decklist again--

//Creatures
4 Confidant
4 Negator
3 Wretch
3 Shade

//Disruption
4 Chalice
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Duress

//Broken
Will
Tutor

//Mana
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

//SB
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Dystopia
2 Coffin Purge
1 Planar Void

I would also really like a way to fit in Demonic Consultation again, for added consistency and a tenth one-drop (not counting Sol Ring, Strip Mine/Wasteland, or Chalice). I suppose I could cut one Swamp (Consultation=Swamp in a pinch). Incidentally, Consultation can sort of be the fourth Wretch in the matchup(s) where resolving him determines the outcome of the game. What does everyone think?

Thanks,
Eric

[zeus-online]

Why arent you running 8x Fetch land (4 p. delta, 4 bloodstaind mire) ? There isnt really a good reason not to...I know the impact is minimal, but any advantage is worth having.

/Zeus

[MonoE]

It's unnecessary life-loss (in a deck somewhat committed to life as a resource) and susceptibility to Stifle and other fetch-hate.

And this deck wants to continue to draw lands all game. Negator and Shade mandate it.

And thinning the deck of lands makes Bob hurt more.

Believe me, this is a deck where, in the right circumstance, a Swamp is a great topdeck. Especially as a Bob card.

Eric

[MonoE]

Okay, so I made the -1 Swamp/+1 Consultation move. Happy so far.

I had a big thought this morning. Under Chalice for 1, Yawgmoth's Will sucks. Even if I were playing a Jet and a Lotus and a Petal, that's only two cards guaranteed to be in my yard, and one more if the Mox was killed somehow (but usually they're just Null Rodded). And that's only if I don't also/alternatively have a Chalice at zero, which I often do. Honestly, once I realized that this deck's strongest play is a Chalice for 1, or a Chalice for zero and then a Chalice for 1, I rethought Will. Cutting it would give me room for the fourth Wretch, upping my gyard hate count to seven post-board (+1 P. Void, +2 Coffin Purge), not counting two tutors and Bob draw. Suicide has got to keep up the hate, or else lose, and right now graveyard hate is important. Plus, more creatures = good.

Thoughts on + 1 Wretch/ - 1 Yawgmoth's Will?

Eric

[zeus-online]

I'd much rather take damage and get something usefull. I never want more then 2-3 Non-strip lands.

And the life loss from fetch lands is completely irrelevant 99.99% of the time. Even with Bob.

Also fetch-hate is basicly just stifle, and only a few decks play that. (okay, there are a few decks with Rootmaze/Shadow of doubt)

I dont get why you want alot of mana with this deck?
I want threats when i play aggro or aggro-control (including suicide), lots of threats! and disruption, not just basics, after turn 2-3 they're just in the way. (Doing 1 extra damage with shade is hardly worth it imo)

But you're right about will, will sucks in suicide, i cutted it a long time ago, necropotence is the nutz though.

Demonic tutor is generally a waste of mana in suicide, imo...thats 2 mana you could have used for something usefull rather then just finding another so-so card.

/Zeus

[MonoE]

Ankh of Mishra also makes fetchlands equal personal Beacon of Destructions to the head. Not saying it's that played, but I think that if the meta goes on like this too long, dedicated fetch hate will start really meaning something.

I want a lot of mana because it's the only way Negator is playable against aggro, because it makes Shade a lot better, and because this deck actually plays a low Swamp-count to begin with, what with all the Strip effects and Rituals. Once I Chalice for 1, Ritual is out the window. I really need those third and fourth Swamps. I have fifteen {B}-costed cards! That's a quarter of the deck!

I'm glad you see Will the same way. I'm concentrating right now on honing the Chalice-at-one synergies in the deck. Rethinking Demonic, too. Consultation is definitely > it here, but is Tutor still worth running? With 2-ofs, 3-ofs, and even a 1-of in the sideboard, I think it's most useful post-sideboard, and since 2/3 of games are post-sideboard, it's a useful card. I should really find room for it in the SB, though. Ironically, if I swapped it with a SB card/another singleton, suddenly I would need it again, to find that card! Sheesh.

I am reconsidering Mesmeric Fiends. They would replace Sinkholes or Hymns. Sinkholes most likely, as this would then give me twelve great hand-destruction cards at the expense of some early tempo. It would up my creature count. It would down my {B}-costing count. All good things. However-- I love Sinkhole! When this deck has the ability to be (post SB): 4 Sinkhole, 4 Wasteland, 2 Null Rod, 4 Chalice, 1 Strip Mine . . . it just eats Vintage manabases alive. And I want to minimize Pyroclasm's effect on the deck. I don't want this to turn into Black Fish, I want to be faster and more powerful and more inconsistent than that! Shorter games. I don't want to get caught in too much Fish-hate crossfire.

What if I could fit in Mesmeric Fiend in addition to Sinkholes? Keeping my mana denial strategy intact, but upping the hand denial strategy that is so powerful today? Knowing the contents of opponents' hands is ridiculous advantage. I could re-cut a Wretch, cut Demonic, and cut . . . something else, for three Fiend. Demonic Tutor's post-SB strength is the main thing stopping me from doing this.

Eric

[zeus-online]

Ankh of mishra "was" played, but there's currently no good deck that can run this card, why are you worrying yourself about hate that might someday pop up? Just worry about what currently could hurt you.

I'm assuming that you use your rituals early, so dead rituals are the ones you *might* draw after turn 2.

You shouldnt run into a whole lot of Aggro generally, unless your local metagame got tons of it, so that argument isnt all that strong.

Also i used to run 8 fetch/8 swamps (totalt 16) and that worked quite well, i rarely had mana problems, and the confidant helps smooth that problem out aswell.

I never really liked Demonic tutor in suicide, its like giving your opponent a time walk, and the card you get is usually not that much better then what could have replaced the tutor in the first place. Consultation is an exception cause its so damn cheap.

/Zeus

[MonoE]

Okay, I decided:

+2 Mesmeric Fiend / -1 Demonic Tutor, -1 Withered Wretch

And the SB:

+1 Demonic Tutor/ -1 Contagion

So now I have Fiend in addition to both Sinkhole and Hymn, at the expense of a little gyard hate consistency game one, and de-gogglez Tutor (zey do nothing!). Zey do something post-baord, though, so D.Tut. stays in to fetch my hate in the back two.

You might be right about the fetches. I'll have to think it through some more. I will say though that I'm almost certainly not going to be comfortable with eight.

I am also seriously considering replacing Shade with Hyppie. Reasoning:

(a) To be effective, Shade comes out late, effectively making their casting costs equivalent
(b) With Mesmeric Fiend the deck is tilting toward more controllish, and Hyppies would further that, assigning even more power to Negator as the finisher (not that swinging for 2 is negligible, anyway)
(c) I am starting to agree with whoever said before that "all your extra mana should go to Wretch anyway"
(d) I am in love with Swamp, Ritual, Hyppie on the play, especially with this deck's strongest turn 2.
(e) Makes me less susceptible to Chalice @ 2, which helps when I really need to make that play myself if I can (read: Oath), as well as when my opponent tries to hate me out (Workshop variants, Stax at times).

I think that the reason Shade was so good (and I believe he was) for Legend Black was that Legend Black played at a time when aggro-vs-control games tended to last for a while. If aggro didn't score the knockout punch early, Shade cleaned up like a champ, and provided a possible answer to what control ran as a finisher-- Morphling. Nowadays, by way of contradistinction, control decks have combo wins-- Tendrils + lots of spells, Welder + Slaver, Tinker + artifact = DSC. These are the types of endings that (1) don't involve creatures (well, I think we can hardly call DSC a creature in the sense that Shade could be any sort of answer!); (2) can happen much earlier than a Morphling; (3) win much more rapidly than Morphling; (4) provide more immediate board control than a Morphling. In short, I don't think games drag on anymore, even aggro-vs-control games. Aggro-v-combo games even less so. As for aggro-v-aggro, while Shade can take out weenie armies, so can Chalice (preboard) and Masticore/Contagion (post-). And like you point out, aggro barely exists in Vintage. Workshop was practically an auto-loss anyway, I don't think replacing Shade with Specter changes the matchup much. Chalice murders Sligh and Stompy, no need for Shade in those.

I also decided to cut a Swamp for that all-necessary fourth Wretch, especially after (a) Fiends give me more ways that a one-swamp, one-other-land hand are keepable; (b) Confidant fixes lands; (c) Wretch rocks; (d) I like making lists.

Here would be the new decklist:

//Creatures (17)
4 Confidant
4 Negator
4 Wretch
3 Hyppie
2 Fiend

//Disruption (16)
4 Chalice
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

//Consistency (1)
Consult

//Mana (26)
1 Ring
1 Strip
1 Petal
4 Ritual
4 Waste
15 Swamp

//Sideboard (15)
3 Edict
2 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Dystopia
2 Coffin Purge
1 Planar Void
1 D. Tutor

The benefit of this list is, I think, that it has the highest threat density of any list I've come up with yet. Every single creature is must-kill, and what with Vintage running almost no creature removal, and the rest of my strategy specifically designed to pre-empt countermagic, countering all my creatures is not possible either. So some creatures get through. I also like Mesmeric Fiend, because it's either a Duress on legs (unbelievably good); or else my opponent has to remove it, wasting a spell that now cannot be used on Hyppie, Negator, Confidant, Wretch, which are controlling the board. It's also an immediate-impact card, with possible card-disadvantage or mere 1-for-1 trade, as opposed to Hyppie, which has possible card-advantage or mere 1-for-1 trade. But together, these two creatures work wonders. Let's say I play one of each. Whichever stays on has taken a pretty big chunk out of my opponent's strategy. Duress's effect is just so strong that even a crappy little 1/1 which only does the effect conditionally turns out to be able to cut it here. It's also nice that this deck now has six ways to check out the opponent's hand, 4 of them turn one (or 6 with Petal/Ritual) for checking the appropriate Chalice number.

One reason Hyppie was good in old Suicide builds is that it served as a "Lightning Rod" to allow the other creatures in FTW. Basically here we have a Sui deck where all the creatures are Lightning Rods for various reasons.

As a side effect, Pyroclasm is a pretty big problem now. But that's the sort of card I go after early with Duress, Duress-on-legs, Hymn, denying red mana, and playing my creatures carefully.

Eric

[Korhil]

I've found 14-16 Creatures to be enough.
That last list had 17 and the DT in the Sideboard. I'd sooner run DT main deck.

I'd suggest you could test more with using 4 Leyline of the Void in the sideboard.
If you have all 4 Wretch main deck, then you have the sort of targeted removal that Coffin Purge offers you - which is currently one of your board choices.
With 4 Leyline, and 4 Wretch after boarding, your have good chances of having one in your opening grip. The fact that one costs 0 and is uncounterable is solid. Leyline is also more effective that Planar Void. Opponents can work around a Planar Void more easily than a Leyline.
You have the option to still cast a turn 1 Chalice for 1 if you want without worrying about shutting out your ability of casting the extra GY hate.

Leyline is more of a dead draw that either of Planar Void or Coffin Purge (or even a Crypt), if not in your opening hand. However, the matches where GY hate is essential, the speed at which Leyline can come into play is more crucial.

I think Dystopia is too slow in the current enviroment.
Powder Kegs should still get a sideboard spot in some metas.

The only real solutioin to a tinkered DSC, is to have 1 of the 3 Edicts in hand after Sideboarding. Is it better to use these spots for cards that are better in other situations, and ignore the Tinker-DSC problem? You can't beat everything. And it's a fairly narrow 'out'.

---Korhil

[zeus-online]

Its unbelieveable easy to get tinker-dsc up, the need for an answer is real.

I kinda like that new list, i'd probably try to squeeze a couple of Edicts and a necropotence into it.

Necropotence + Confidant may look bad but lets examine it:

If you resolve turn 1 necropotence, you should win in like every match except the one where you get turn 1'd before you get to use the cards.
If you're getting 2 cards a turn drawing an essentially "dead" necropotence shouldnt matter all THAT much.
With necropotence on the table, the only constraining resource is basicly your mana, so drawing a confidant just means that you should play another spell instead.

/Zeus

[MonoE]

I've found 14-16 Creatures to be enough.
That last list had 17 and the DT in the Sideboard. I'd sooner run DT main deck.

I am not counting Fiend. His creature-ness is a bonus, especially since Vintage is light on removal, but he's mainly Duresses 5 and 6 here. Running him over Cabal Therapy because he costs 2 (Chalice concerns), and because he beats a little.

I'm considering 4 Leyline.

The only real solutioin to a tinkered DSC, is to have 1 of the 3 Edicts in hand after Sideboarding. Is it better to use these spots for cards that are better in other situations, and ignore the Tinker-DSC problem? You can't beat everything. And it's a fairly narrow 'out'.

Edicts are good in lots of situations. Especially if I ditch Dystopia, they're my only Oath slots. And I could also have a Demonic Tutor in hand after sideboarding, assuming Tinker doesn't happen turn 1.

Its unbelieveable easy to get tinker-dsc up, the need for an answer is real.

3 Edicts/1 Demonic in games two and three is going to have to do it. Other than that I'm banking on nabbing Tinker/Tutor before 2U is up, which is a stronger strategy anyway than just siding in three reactive spells. I mean, I'm already worried about how siding into the Edicts/Demonic water down the disruption strategy. There's a point at which you hurt yourself by allowing for the situation you're sideboarding for to happen at all.

Other playstyle considerations--

(1) If you want to drop Sinkhole, the best bet would be 3x Chains and beefing up the creatures (probably 3x Fiend).
(2) It's possible to switch the numbers of Specter and Fiend. A little more right-now impact, a little less punch and advantage in longer games.
(3) If you play in a metagame where Chalicing for 1 is not as strong a play, replace Hymn with Therapies. Also consider Aether Vial, and Pithing Needle in the board.
(4) Sinkhole can be replaced by 3x Null Rod, 1x CoW. This also changes the deck a bit, more Fishlike which gives it better midgame, less Sui-like which make it even more vulnerable to a topdeck.

Eric

[zeus-online]

Was mostly directed at Korhill anyway

Problem with using discard is tutors that put the card on top of the library, your best bet pre-SB is to do heavy discard and keep his artifacts off the table with chalice.

Most decks have a couple of critters in them, so edicts wont exactly be *dead*.

Only match-up where i'd consider them more or less *dead* would be control slaver and storm combo.

Control slaver got welders, which dosnt do anything with a wretch lying around, keeping B up is rather easy? Gorilla shamans are obviosly not that good against you....the big artifacts hopefully wont show up in time, as you're running some mana denial.

Storm generally dosnt use tinker/DSC maindeck, but may SB them in.

/Zeus

[never]

3 Edicts/1 Demonic in games two and three is going to have to do it. Other than that I'm banking on nabbing Tinker/Tutor before 2U is up, which is a stronger strategy anyway than just siding in three reactive spells.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement, because of how easy it is to get 2U up. It isn't unheard of for decks running tinker to have 2U on first turn and certainly by second.  Also, decks running tinker are often running mystical and/or brainstorm. So in response to your discard spell they either tutor it up or hide it on the top of their deck.

Diabolic edit is good in most match ups, even a lot of combo decks run confidant. It also helps keep blockers out of the way of your negator. I don't think you would be hurting your deck to run one or two in the main.

Also, I don't know if you noticed this, but a mono black deck placed 25th at starcity charlotte: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17818

He took more of a discard route for disruption, but also ran 4 chainer's edict main. I wonder if anyone knows him, maybe we could get a report from him and some words on his experience with the deck.

[oneofchaos]

No offense but that deck looks fairly janky.  First off, why the hell no wasteland/strip effects?  Second, not even fetchlands to draw business?  Third, the board looks fairly anti creatures, in particular white/green creatures which are rarely played. 

Actually some are played but not enought to devote that many board slots to such a small situtation.

[never]

It's not my deck, so I wouldn't take offense.

I think it is definitely worth taking a look at and perhaps using as a base, since it is one of the few mono black decks I've seen place well in big tournaments.

Perhaps the discard route is worth exploring further.

[MonoE]

I'm not saying either strategy is actually that strong, just that the disruption route is generally more consistent and in keeping with the deck's strength. Tinker is undercosted and DSC is the perfect card to break it, there's no doubt that this is a card that is more powerful than any card in my deck. However, there is only one copy of it. Tutors find it, and sometimes put it on top of the library, which is a problem. So I go after the tutors. Brainstorm hides those, so I go after Brainstorm and blue mana sources in general.

And I disagree that Edict is good in most matchups. In this deck, it's just not. There are possible Edict targets in most decks, but that doesn't mean Edict is not this deck's correct answer. The most usual creatures, and this deck's pre-board correct answer (as I see it now):

Welder : Wretch

Confidant : Confidant (and in a more general sense, Their draw : my disruption)

DSC : Denying Tinker long enough to win

Oath's Akroma/Razia/ridiculousness : Denying Oath

Fish's fishies : Hippie (flies); disruption

Postboard I have Contagions for Bobs and Welders, Null Rod to further screw the Tinker play, Edict for Collossus (in addition to, not instead of, the disruption), Edict and possibly Dystopia for Oath, probably Null Rods too, and Contagion/Masticore for Fish.

My point is that Edict looks great on paper. And in practice it is good, but only if it complements the deck's existing ethos, not if it replaces it. This deck can't become reactive. It needs proactive disruption, which constitutes 'answers' in a looser sense. Since the Collossus play is so devastating it also helps to pack Edicts as reactive answers post-board, but not at the expense of denying the play to begin with. Again, it's not that they're dead. It's that they are self-defeating in so many matchups-- by making me not disrupt, but rather wait, I invite more problems than they can handle to begin with.

@oneofchaos: I agree. Royal Assassin? Arena over Bob? What the heck?


Eric