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Author Topic: How to sideboard with WGDX  (Read 2978 times)
MMD
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« on: August 18, 2006, 03:55:24 pm »

First of all, I would like to thank dicemanx for his build. I never liked WGD in the past because of a shitload of dead cards if you cannot get a Bazaar online. But his build is perfectly matching with my play style...CARDDRAWING.

I would like to start a discussion about the correct sideboarding strategies for WGDX.

My actual deck is as follows:


Maindeck (60):
Spells (43):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Entomb
3 Necromancy
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Cunning Wish
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
3 Read the Runes
1 Eternal Witness
1 Life from the Loam
4 Worldgorger Dragon

Lands (17):
1 Bayou
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15):
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Repeal
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Sundering Titan
1 Woodripper
1 Duress
2 Xantid Swarm

As you can see I prefer a more controlish build including Life from the Loam, which works great for me. I have not lost my board to any hate effects, because this build often wins in the midgame because of pure card advantage caused by Life from the Loam.

I started to play Chalice in the side instead of the Labīs but I was destroyed by Grim Long (and it is also not a walk in the park against TPS), therefore I will switch to Ambassador in the main (nearly no Oath in my Meta) and to Arcane Lab in the side. I have also added the last Duress for more Fast Combo hate which is the worst matchup to my understanding.

My Meta (Iserlohn in Germany) consists of the following:

50-80 Player (70-80% powered)
30% Staxx
15% TPS
10% Gifts
10% Fish (any kind, mostly UBW and UGW)
5 % CS
5% GrimLong
5% Food Chain
20% miscellaneous (Oatch,Salvager,2-Land,3CC,Dragon...)

This is how I would like to sideboard and I would like to start a discussion about this:

Staxx:
out: 3 Duress, 1 Dance, 1 Entomb, 1 Force
in: 3 Deed, 1 Woodripper, 1 Chain, 1 Repeal
I am not quite sure if I should keep the combo parts for more Forces from the maindeck

TPS/Long:
out: 1 Dance, 1 Entomb, 1 Life, 1 Deep Analysis
in: 3 Arcane Lab, 1 Duress
Should if realy side out Entomb against fast combo?

Gifts/CS:
out: 1 Dance, 1 Entomb, 1 Life, 1 off colour Mox
in: 1 Duress, 2 Xantid Swarm, 1 Sundering Titan
I am not happy removing a Mox but what else?

Fish
out: 2 Deep Analysis, 1 Entomb, 1 Animate Dead
in: 3 Pernicious Deed, 1 Sundering Titan
no bounce from the side but what else to cut?

As you can see I seldomly side in the bounce because of space issues against Tier1 decks, but I would not like to destroy my gameplan because of oversideboarding.

Any suggestions? Thank you very much for your appreciated help.

MMD



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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 04:59:35 pm »

In most cases it's better to side out an Animate and a Dragon than to side out draw or acceleration.

Since you're siding Entomb out every time, why not just bite the bullet and cut it completely for Time Walk?

And Mana Vault is awesome in this deck, you know that right?
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 07:48:46 pm »

I wouldn't take out Entomb, not even for Timewalk.  Entomb allows you to win early much more consistently than Time Walk does.  It also allows you to win with Witness even when you don't have a RtR, Intiution, or Cunning Wish in the yard and Bazaar is not active.  This can be important against decks with a lot of hate, or just when you want to go off earlier.

Peter himself said he didn't like the card and sided it out in just about every matchup.  He still kept it in though against faster combo like Grim Long.

I think it is much more useful here than time walk.
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2006, 01:26:57 am »

Strangely enough, I prefer to have Entomb boarded game 1 and then able to bring it in against stuff I need to speed up against. It makes a fine Cunning Wish target as well. Entomb is a busted strong card, perhaps better than Time Walk. However, TW seems sharp because it makes DA better (extra land drop, ability to tap out to flash, etc) and it obviously is good with Bazaar out. It bolsters FOW too. I side TW out a fair bit but I think it's the more busted of the two cards in game one. Entomb sometimes is either a card that only draws the game or it's a weaker Consult the Necrosages.
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2006, 02:42:46 am »

I tend to agree with Hi-Val in theory..but for some reason I have always just loved Entomb so I keep it in there. However I do understand that it is maybe the weakest link of the bunch. It is certainly up for debate if the 4th DA could go in its spot, or obviously Time Walk...or maybe even MD bounce if you believe this to be needed in your meta for some reason (repeal is a great option and at the least isnt totally dead as you can bounce something silly even if only to draw one card.)

Entomb in the SB is an interesting idea..I hadnt really thought about it too much. As I never seem to find exactly the SB I want for dragon perhaps that would be a solid option to have in there. I also like the idea of some sort of other tutor in the board for wish use. LDV or Vamp in the SB might not be a terrible idea, especially if you want to be running 2 C. Wish MD. (although I prefer just the one wish)

Quote
Entomb allows you to win early much more consistently than Time Walk does. 

Forgive me if I am wrong, and Peter or others can chime in if they like, but the point of this particular build of Dragon isnt to have turn 1 and 2 wins every game right? So if we slow down and take a breath game one and run Time Walk which is pretty arguable for a better card then might it make for an overall more stable and solid build? The only time I would really say we need Entomb is in a very high concentration of Long like decks...but then I probably wouldnt be playing Dragon if my meta is mostly faster combo.

Mana Vault + Read the Runes is tits.

Also im really not so sure that you want to run Life from the Loam in this build...its really not needed. It really doesnt speed anything up...can only be played with a few mana sources in the deck and this build doesnt really always need bazaar to be protected anyways (hence running read the runes which is a major part of why people like this build)

For the same speed and more benefit, simply run more basics. Peter has agreed that in the proper meta more basics is fully acceptable. So run 4 or 5. And with Loams departure the need for MD Tropical and Bayou pretty much goes away. This is even more relevant if you get away from Deed and Swarm (and Swarm is probably not good as a 2 of if at all IMO) Loam to keep your mana base safe is one thing...but making your mana base worse in the first place just to support Loam is another. Also if I really really wanted to run Loam and Green in the deck then I might find room for Crop Rotation in the deck as well.

You also dont need Ambassador Laquatus AND witness/c.wish/rtr in the MD.

straight from Peter when I asked about Laquatus in the MD along with the other kill

Quote
I don't like this addition at all - it wastes one slot unnecessarily. You have both Witness and Cunning Wish for kill cards.

pretty easy explanation right?
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2006, 09:23:59 am »

I have not used Entomb in any of my WGD builds until WGDX was unveiled at SCG Rochester. Even then I wanted to cut it, but Noah convinced me that it had been amazing for him in testing and in practice (both Noah and Jason Chau played the decks in local events leading up to the SCG event with very good results). However, if I was to run the deck now I would cut it in favor of either Time Walk, Cunning Wish #2, or Tinker, but only if I could get a second big artifact into the deck - Titan #2, or maybe even a Memnarch. The problem with cutting Wish #2 for a Titan, like we did day 2 in Rochester, AND cutting Entomb is that it limits the chances of comboing off without Bazaar. The deck has 9-10 instant speed win conditions now (3 RtR, 4 Intuitions, 1 Entomb, 1-2 Cunning Wish), but you're likely going to want to draw 2 of those 9-10 to win without Bazaar. Cutting down that number to 8 begins to go against the strength of this build (reduced reliance on Bazaar).

I think if I was going to run this deck at another event, I would revert back to Wish #2 over the maindeck Titan, swap an Island for the Tropical Island in the maindeck and possibly even remove the Xantids from the SB, and switch the Entomb for Time Walk or a 4th DA, with the latter being my preference right now. I wouldn't be so worried about maindeck hate to want to be maindecking Titan. The Life from the Loam is an interesting idea, but is it really necessary? How good is it to "waste" a slot that you could, for instance, devote to a YawgWill? And as people have indicated, Ambassador + Wish + Witness is too much. If there's a lack of Oath in your area, definitely go with Ambassador over the Witness.

Regarding the SB - I would likely run 5 bounce spells (Hurkyl's, 1-2 Echoing Truth, and 2-3 Repeals). I would also run a "transformational" board of 2 Titan and 1 Tinker, maybe with a Mystical Tutor thrown in to both assist with the finding of Tinker and to serve as a Cunning Wish target. I don't know what I would do against Long - we ran 3 Null Rod day 1 and 3 CotV day 2, but we were ready to give that matchup as hopeless until we were recently informed by team Reflection that this deck should perform quite well against Long after testing. This is perhaps not too surprising - this is one of the fastest WGD builds to date (in opposition to what Lunar stated), and can come close to competing for fastest Goldfish rate with Long as far as tier 1 archetypes are concerned.

As far as SB strategies - we never had any set in stone. We follow the rule to not overSB, because WGD's strength lies in the speed of the combo kill and dilution of that pulls away from that strength. The problem is that it is almost impossible to tell what kind of hate the opponent will throw at you game 2, which means that we've been satisfied in SBing our catch-alls - 3 bounce spells - for game 2, and fine tuning the SB strategy for game 3. Most often the cards that are SBed out include 1 Animate and 1 WGD (as Hi-Val indicated), along with the Entomb if it is played, or otherwise a land (against decks that don't attack the mana base). Against Drain decks the Xantid seems a little insufficient, especially given that you must either cut combo pieces for them (counterproductive) or FoW/Duress (which weakens your disruption base in terms of being able to play defensively). I ended up NOT SBing in Xantids midway into the SCG event against Drain decks, and would likely not include them in the SB again. The Drain decks are too damn fast to afford a luxury such as Swarm. The Tinker plan is a little different, because you can hit their lands with it (along with animating the Titan).

I would probably run something like the following in the current meta:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Eternal Witness

3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Intuition
3 Read the Runes
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Deep Analysis

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Duress
4 Force of Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Echoing Truth
2 Repeal
1 Misdirection
1 Tinker
2 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 09:29:03 am by dicemanx » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 01:43:16 pm »

Thanks for your suggestions! The deck Iīve listed is certainly a control orientated version of WGDX, including Life and another land (for Vault).

I certainly see that Vault fits perfectly to DA and RtR and can be nuts, but I always opt for the most stable version, even if I give up one turn in goldfishing. The reason is, that I am a control player to the core, but this is my personal problem...

But I see that this is the wrong strategy for WGDX (altough I made T8 twice with it) if you want to battle faster combo. Especially if you go for the last DA in the main and the Tinker plan in the side you desperately need the Vault.

I will test a BU version as suggested.

But please donīt underestimate LftL. If they are packed with hate in game 2 they cannot compete against three cards cards per turn. LftL won me the game not only once because of cardadvantage. With this build, and this is especially very useful in Game 2-3 when one Duress is not enough, you can outdraw your opponent and be the reactive player. This sounds weird for WGDX but you can draw cards in your mainphase, build up you mana base and kill them either in react if they do something or kill them with a full hand and a lot of mana in your main phase (turn 8-10). If the opponent does not follow his own gameplan and oversideboards (which happens quite often), they are helpless against card/mana advantage.

Kill:
I have never wished for another card than Stroke and without green in my deck (I hardcasted Witness a couple of times) and nearly no Oath in my meta I will keep Laquatus in the main. Which will open me two slots in the main. Do you see the requirement of a second win condition? Because Iīve pitched one of them to FoW a couple of times. But I donīt remember if I had to, because you always want to keep all the other stuff more likely, if there is one win condition left.

One last question: Why Thruth over Chain? In which situation is Echoing Thruth better than the Chain? I donīt get it.

Also, to my understanding neither Null Rod nor Chalice will greatly help against Grim Long. They are fine against IT/TPS but Long will not be stopped with only one Chalice on the board. I think I will keep the Arcane Labīs in my sideboard, especially with Laquatus as kill condition.

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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2006, 06:31:49 pm »

For what matchups would you recommend using the transformational sideboard?
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2006, 11:07:27 pm »

you want another plan against bomberman for sure, titans are huge there, abeyance might be necessary if that deck ever gets played outside canada....that match is such a mess.....decks that start with like 5-7 hate cards main and board in 3-5 hate cards, not to mention their 11 counters are so unfair it's not even funny.

peter, I really want Life from the loam or squee against control because they keep boarding in REB's and cutting off my engine.  those two cards let you get your bazaar on without getting destroyed in the card advantage war.

you can cast truth while going off if there's something you have to remove like a true believer.  if you cast chain while going off you lose all your perms.

@chalice basically your goal in this match is to steal like half a turn.  you can do that with a chalice.  Chalice is also fantastic against gifts because they have to clear it before they can go off.
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2006, 10:18:35 pm »

My question about the sideboard with the WGDX that DicemanX posted on here is what to sideboard out and in against Stax, Pitch Long, and Anti-Fish?
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 11:39:19 pm »

One last question: Why Truth over Chain? In which situation is Echoing Thruth better than the Chain? I donīt get it.

Just for the sake of discussion: It's a very rare situation, but tutoring for Echoing Truth answers an opening of Leyline Of The Void x 2. Chain Of Vapor can't unless the opponent makes a mistake and copies it. It also alleviates pressure in stupid situations by bouncing multiple Meddling Mages, True Believers, or any other threatening permanent that is played in multiples.

Later,
Dave
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2006, 02:47:41 am »

My question about the sideboard with the WGDX that DicemanX posted on here is what to sideboard out and in against Stax, Pitch Long, and Anti-Fish?

Well what do you think comes in and out? Give us some reasons, show us your logic. We can help you a lot more if we know what level you are at with the deck. Give it a shot-- you might be surprised about how correct you are. Show us your dedication to the question and we'll repay it with good responses.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2006, 07:56:56 am »

One last question: Why Truth over Chain? In which situation is Echoing Thruth better than the Chain? I donīt get it.

Just for the sake of discussion: It's a very rare situation, but tutoring for Echoing Truth answers an opening of Leyline Of The Void x 2. Chain Of Vapor can't unless the opponent makes a mistake and copies it. It also alleviates pressure in stupid situations by bouncing multiple Meddling Mages, True Believers, or any other threatening permanent that is played in multiples.

Later,
Dave

It's actually not as rare as you'd think. So far in tournaments, Leyline x 2, True Believer x 2 and Meddling Mage x2 have come up for me. Sometimes it ends up being irrelevant how you go about winning and getting rid of problematic cards, but there are a few times where it'll basically save your butt where CoV wouldn't do the job. In my semi-finals match against Ichorid a long time ago, my opponent threw down Leyline x 2 and began cabal therapying my hand to basically nothing. I did manage to Mystical tutor for Echoing Truth and it got rid of the now uncastable Leyline. Had it been CoV I would've just lost.
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2006, 10:27:47 am »

you want another plan against bomberman for sure, titans are huge there, abeyance might be necessary if that deck ever gets played outside canada....that match is such a mess.....decks that start with like 5-7 hate cards main and board in 3-5 hate cards, not to mention their 11 counters are so unfair it's not even funny.

peter, I really want Life from the loam or squee against control because they keep boarding in REB's and cutting off my engine.  those two cards let you get your bazaar on without getting destroyed in the card advantage war.

Come on now, it's not that bad! You managed to draw enough cards to beat me! In fact, in the two matches I played at Gencon, Dragon beat me with Bomberman both times. That was through a combination of three things I had too. Either counters + Swords + Aether Spellbomb + Tormod's Crypt. I might have been playing it a bit too conservatively, knowing that Dragon could go off at any time so I kept mana open for counters usually after turn two based on the Dragon player's board.

Of course, the two Dragon players I had to play against were you and Rich, so I don't feel that bad about the losses.

On the other hand, I would vouch for the Life from the Loam. That's the only way that Rich was able to generate enough card advantage to go through my Spellbomb, Tormod's and FoW. We went pretty far towards the late game and all the draw he was getting through it made the difference in the game. He was able to pull off multiple bounce spells and win game 3 in turns. Pretty impressive overall. That made me a believer in the LftL. Granted, it might not be ideal for a combo meta, but overall, it can generate massive CA.
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