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Author Topic: New Card Discussion: Lotus Bloom  (Read 14521 times)
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2006, 11:48:21 am »

I don't think of this as a Flagship card, but I think it's definitely solid. I think making a deck to abuse it is folly though-- You can be welding in far better things than this, as well as Tinkering for them. However, I think Blossom is fine in a control deck as a 1-2 of. Don't look at it as a card that interacts with Will. Most control mirrors just come down to who has more mana when the big spell crunch comes up. This thing guarantees that you'll have the mana for an extra draw or counter. I'm liking the idea of having, say, 2 in a deck and knowing that I can punch my mana way up when I need to. This card is the difference between FOF on turn 5 and FOF on turn 5 with Drain backup.
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2006, 12:05:55 pm »

I think its gonna be a dead-draw way too often, if you draw this card later then turn 2 its gonna be a dead draw in most games.

There's already tons of dead-draws that gets played though, but squeezing even 2 of these in seems nearly impossible in most decks. When do you ever want to see this card?

Welding it in seems narrow and bad. You could be welding in something good instead, like a fat artifact dude who nukes lands, or kills critters...or maybe a slaver.

/Zeus

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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2006, 12:20:37 pm »

What mana sources will a deck like control slaver cut for this card?  It's simply worse than any other card in your deck opening hand, (i'd rather have colossus, trike, slaver, etc) and not coming online until turn 4 reads to me, "only playable in the control mirror."  Guilded lotus seems better all around for every argument brought to the table thus far.  Weld it in?  guilded is better.  Tinker for it?  guilded is better.  This card could be busted in some format, I'm just pretty sure it's not vintage.
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2006, 12:45:15 pm »

the stifle+shatter property makes the split-second naturalize probably a new sideboard staple for any deck that can produce green mana. if it sees lots of play, priority timing issues become that much more important.
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2006, 12:59:27 pm »

if it sees lots of play, priority timing issues become that much more important.

Yeah, and it makes you play kinda crazy.  Like for example:

In play you have Island, Mana Crypt, Fetchland, and 1 Mox all untapped.

In your hand: Tinker (for mindslaver off the island crypt, and sac the crypt), Mox, Thirst for knowledge

Suppose you really want to take thier next turn ... Like they Mysticaled for Yawgmoths will and have a combo win next turn.... Hypothetically, what would you do?  Would you play it normal, and see if Tinker resolves first?  or do you not chance it and play your mox, fetch your land, and then cast tinker and activate slaver without passing priority...  How much are ppl going to fear this card?
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2006, 01:00:19 pm »

I think a lot of players have already articulated the reasons why this card is not very useful in T1.

1) There are other cards that have similar effects (with Welder especially) that are better than this and not used.  Gilded Lotus
2) Most T1 decks are at critical mass and there needs to be a compelling reason for a new card to replace an existing slot in a T1 deck.  Would you cut Vault, Crypt, Petal, or Ring for this?  I wouldn't.

I said this in a MTG Salvation post, but, if there was ever a time for Oscar Tan to come out of retirement and start writing his "T1 worthy" card analysis articles, then this it. Back to Dominaria, back to old school mechanics, back to Oscar Tan!
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2006, 01:15:49 pm »

Lotus Bloom is an interesting card, but I doubt it will see play for the reasons mentioned. It is also an atrocious, atrocious topdeck.

Also, you guys probably already know this, but from some posts there appears to be a little confusion: Suspend costs will not all be 0. In fact, the Lotus is probably one of the few cards that will. Think about this for example:

Lightning Zap  RR
Instant
Deal 3 damage to target creature or player
Suspend 2-R

You could either play it for it's casting cost like any other spell, or play it early and have to wait for it. I think this is how the majority of suspend cards will work.

Also, even if I'm wrong about the cards themselves having mana costs, Suspend may. Like this:

Ancestral Flashback
Instant
Draw 3 cards
Suspend 3-UU
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2006, 06:00:36 pm »

Im not sure how your going to play Necromancy "in response" when you cannot play spells or abilites.  The Split Second Mechaninc doesn't make any of your other spells less counterable... but it IS very very powerful.  It means you can Blast something and your opponent cannot respond by welding that thing out.  Or if your opponent plays Memory Jar, it resolves, then they play some other card from thier hand, you could respond to it by Split Second killing the Jar and they will not be able to pop the jar in response to its destruction.    The same applies for Mindslaver.  and it becomes a great tool for destroying a patient triskellion.

I think Split Second practically defines a "good" ability in T1 something that happens RIGHT NOW, where Susspend is a "bad" ability because its a cost right now for some future benefit.

I don't know about you guys, but the split second card we do know about has me excited.  Aside from the examples above I, personally, think the best use for the card would be anti-Tormod's Crypt tech in Dragon, making it much easier to play around that obnoxious card.  Dragon already, sometimes, splashes green for xantids post board so I think this card should be an auto-include. 

Thoughts?
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2006, 06:36:23 pm »

I agree with your analysis of Krosan Grip in Dragon. Currently playing Dragon, I find that Crypt is a horrible threat, something that this and this card alone can deal with, minus the "nuke your yard in response" antics. It is annoying that it costs three mana, but it is a worthy price to pay to eliminate without chance of countering the menace of Crypt.

Lotus Bloom is not as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be. Yes, it is delayed, but not every single Vintage game is over before turn 4, not by a long shot. In the appropriate type of deck, this could be quite important to set up a fourth turn win, with the previous three turns being used to protect the crucial fourth. Many storm decks can win only in the first two turns on a goldfish, minus the opponent's Duress and FoW. The ability to have an additional three mana when you attempt to go off on that fourth turn, as well as the spell count, could be quite useful.

This card also gets rather ridiculous with Infernal Tutor (Although this is probably a trick better suited to another format). Regardless, if this is in your hand (unrestricted, that is a possibility) and you are running IT (unrestricted, and quite good with rituals), this could definitely set up some powerful wins.

-DL
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2006, 08:11:28 pm »

I'd still consider running it as a 1-of in Long decks.

Lotus -> Tinker -> Jar -> LED -> Will -> Lotus -> LED -> Tinker -> Bloom -> stupid.

This wouldnt work, because by casting bloom it would just be RFG'ed for 3 turns... hell bloom doesnt even work with yawg will.

This card is just purely awful in type 1 in every sense of the word. CS it is no good, because honestly CS doesnt really need the mana it MIGHT get from welding it, and if this was such a welding target then how is it any better then guilded lotus???

3rd turn in any deck... just not that great... it doesnt even up storm count because it doesnt have a casting cost, or am I wrong about that??? Just heard something like that on on the type 2 board... but regardless its awful!
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2006, 08:32:11 pm »

No, check out the explanatory text for the Suspend mechanic:

Quote
When you remove the last, play it without paying your mana cost.

This will add to storm count.

One confusing thing here is that this happens to be a Suspend-mechanic card where Suspend is the only option. You can't 'hardcast' it, so to speak, like you can with Lightning Zap, mentioned above. So it doesn't have a casting cost (maybe Wizards will rule that it's zero, as with creature tokens).

I think we're dimissing it simply because it doesn't fit the style of play and, in particular, the decks, of contemporary Vintage. But Vintage will change, and maybe this card will even contribute to that process. If you go out of your way to build a deck around it (assuming it remains unrestricted), you may be able to break it. Who knows what the future holds? I mean, there was a time when we would have said the same thing about Donate. Useless card. But someone found a use. Not saying that this lends itself as much to a combo approach; however, I bet someone could come up with a halfway decent deck focused around exploding on turns 4 through 6.

That said, in the abstract, this is the single worse card to topdeck in Magic.

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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2006, 08:39:28 pm »



3rd turn in any deck... just not that great... it doesn't even up storm count because it doesnt have a casting cost, or am I wrong about that??? Just heard something like that on on the type 2 board... but regardless its awful!

Type 2 players are universally wrong, or damn near close.
It says that the card is played on the turn the time counter is removed. Not put into play. That means it does up the precious storm count by 1. If it were not true, this card would be far more awful.
The reason it is good is because of some retarded applications with stuff like Welder, Reshape (I really think this card is not that horrible now that Bloom is around), Tinker, etc. Think about it.
Bloom in play. Sac for three. Weld out a mox, get Bloom back, Sac for another three.
Lotus can do it too, but Lotus is restricted. The ability to play 6 almost-Lotus's is sort of crazy. Think about it with Will, Reshape, and Infernal Tutor (yes these last two aren't Vintage staples, but that might change.)
 
Sac Black Lotus for three. Play Reshape, sacrificing Mox, Crypt or Vault for Bloom. Sacrifice Bloom for three. Play Ritual. If your hand is empty, play Infernal Tutor getting Yawg Will. Replay Lotus, Mox/Crypt/Vault, Reshape getting another Bloom, Ritual, Infernal Tutor for Tendrils or even Minds Desire, for win, etc...

The basic premise is this: Being able to play with four ESSENTIAL Lotus's in addition to LED and BL is crazy. This is horribly abusable with Reshape and Infernal Tutor, two cards that were beggin to find such applications in Vintage. Combined with Rituals and some good storm kills, this is a powerful possibility for a deck.

-DL
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2006, 09:54:24 pm »

Remember you opponent has 4 turns to play CotV and counter this. Or Trinisphere.
It's an interesting ability, but seems kinda unuseful.
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2006, 09:57:59 pm »

Sooo.... ummm... How is this better then guilded lotus again???

Welder tricks arent very impressive... if you have a welder in play I would much rather weld in a trike/titan/mindslaver etc...
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« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2006, 08:05:47 am »

For T1 one, this card sucks. It's awful if not in your opening hand, and even if it is, it's too slow.
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« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2006, 10:41:50 am »

Sooo.... ummm... How is this better then guilded lotus again???

The first sensible argument that there are cases in which Bloom is better than Gilded has been made a few posts ago: Bloom is Reshape-able for two and therefore both together can be used to augment storm and get one more mana. I don't think that is a powerful enough play to warrant including such a weak card (even Cabal Ritual is way better), but in this specific cas, Bloom IS better than Gilded Lotus. Now we just have to find a way to abuse it rather than just an example of a case in which it doesn't suck.
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« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2006, 07:57:55 pm »

This isn't good in any format. You can't run it as a normal mana source so it takes up spell slots, it's a mulligan for two turns after you rip it, etc etc. Coming at it from the 'always wrong' (thanks...) perspective of a non-t1 player, if you're going to reshape for a lotus, may I suggest black lotus? Or just playing more rituals like good decks do?

Quote
Sac Black Lotus for three. Play Reshape, sacrificing Mox, Crypt or Vault for Bloom. Sacrifice Bloom for three. Play Ritual. If your hand is empty, play Infernal Tutor getting Yawg Will. Replay Lotus, Mox/Crypt/Vault, Reshape getting another Bloom, Ritual, Infernal Tutor for Tendrils or even Minds Desire, for win, etc...

Nice! Unfortunately LED would have been just as good here except without the 'if your hand is empty' rider.

Lotus Bloom is scrub bait. A skilltester. It's always worse than other options, and if there isn't anything better, you're playing the wrong deck, and if you aren't playing the wrong deck, what format is this, exactly? If I pulled a 0 cost artifact in mental magic I might run lotus bloom out... I mean, it's that or ornithopter.
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« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2006, 05:27:33 am »

[img]Lotus Bloom is a fine card. That's all.

It will never or rarely see play in Vintage. The main reason, as many of you have allready mentioned it, is its speed. Turn four? Vintage is all about speed. Turn four is very often to late to change the destiny of a game. Furthermore, to have it turn 4, you NEED to draw it turn 1 or simply have it in your opening hand. What are the odds? If you play 4 of them perhaps it will appear quite often in your first 7/8 cards. But who in the world will play 4?? That's four invaluable slots! Most (all??) current decks just can't afford to give up 4 other useful cards. Besides drawing a Bloom in turn 3 or 7 is just terrible. That's almost like giving a draw away...

Summing up: Lotus Bloom is an interesting card but it will not be played a lot. On the other hand all the people that have always dreamt of a o lotus, but can't afford to buy one, can enjoy it. Have fun!
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« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2006, 12:03:57 pm »

Sooo.... ummm... How is this better then guilded lotus again???

The first sensible argument that there are cases in which Bloom is better than Gilded has been made a few posts ago: Bloom is Reshape-able for two and therefore both together can be used to augment storm and get one more mana. I don't think that is a powerful enough play to warrant including such a weak card (even Cabal Ritual is way better), but in this specific cas, Bloom IS better than Gilded Lotus. Now we just have to find a way to abuse it rather than just an example of a case in which it doesn't suck.

If you have to play horrible cards like "reshape"... well then... thats still awful... At least with gilded lotus (which isnt very good either)... you can at least run good cards like thirst...

When you have to run reshape to make a bad card possibly playable the card is bad.

Great in type 2... Single handedly can replace Tron... But, in type 1 not so much...

Kyle L
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« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2006, 03:27:29 pm »

It's possible that someone may end up breaking this card in two; just not in Vintage.  Yes, it can be Reshaped for UU.  But the difficulty is in people are far more likely to win NOW.

I think this card has potential, just not in the current metagame.
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« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2006, 05:57:27 pm »

It's possible that someone may end up breaking this card in two; just not in Vintage.  Yes, it can be Reshaped for UU.  But the difficulty is in people are far more likely to win NOW.

I think this card has potential, just not in the current metagame.

the metagame isn't gonna get any slower.....what metagame do you envision in which this card is good?
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« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2006, 06:04:51 pm »

the metagame isn't gonna get any slower.....what metagame do you envision in which this card is good?

The metagame after the inevitable triple-kill of ritual, drain, and shop.  A day which we will all refer to as $1,500-evaporation-day. 
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2006, 03:42:12 pm »

Would this be the right thread to discuss Grapeshot?

Grapeshot (1)(R)
Sorcery 
Grapeshot deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
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Let's see how useful this card might be in vintage.
The first thing to examine is whether this might actually be a better finisher than Tendrils of Agony.

Things it has over ToA: (yes these are rather obvious).
-Converted mana cost of 2 instead of 4
-Requiring only one colored mana instead of two
-Requires red mana instead of black. This is not very useful in ritual decks, but it just might be in Gifts variants. After using Will to get a high storm count it might be easier to get red mana to cast the finisher. (Not saying I'm positive on this).
-Can target creatures, making this less of a dead card. Using this as creature removal often might require you to run more copies though...

Thing ToA has over this:

-Requires a lower storm count to do 20. Two copies of Grapeshot will kill at the same storm count though, for the same converted cc.
-Lifegain might be more useful than creature removal. When you've got a low storm count I could see Grapeshot being more useful, removing creatures giving you more turns to breathe than a low amount of life. You'll be more in need of those turns though, as it will be harder to actually kill your opponent using just Grapeshot(s). (When using Yawgmoth's Bargain the lifegain definately wins out here.)

I think as a main deck kill card ToA definately wins out. (Some) modern long decks not running red any more and I imagine they won't want to go back to running red just for multiples of these, because you'd need multiples.

As a sideboard card though, Grapeshot might actually be worthy. Not getting shut down by a Meddling Mage chanting Tendrils sounds nice, it's kind of wishable (granted you'll need double red) and costs two mana only. I can see this as an alternative combo kill for Gifts variants. Now that Time Spiral has brought us Wipe Away, your DSC might not be able to get in two hits. Why not use this baybe to do the second one at a nice mana cost, or just be wishable creature removal.

I think it'd be wise to at least test it in Gifts sideboards, I suggest instead of the second copy of Pyroclasm that's usually there.
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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2006, 07:46:47 pm »

You can respond to Split Second with Morph.  That is the only thing faster than Split Second since Morph doesn't use the stack.   In response, unmoprh Willbender?  I've been considering my options for extended Scepter Chant.

The other card that beats it is Meddling Mage naming it.


The new Lotus, if it doesn't get restricted right away, will be absolutely BROKEN with Goblin Welder.

Slaver is already broken when it has Lotus in the yard, can you imagine the possibilities of running 4?
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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2006, 08:25:56 pm »

You can respond to Split Second with Morph.  That is the only thing faster than Split Second since Morph doesn't use the stack.   In response, unmoprh Willbender?  I've been considering my options for extended Scepter Chant.

The other card that beats it is Meddling Mage naming it.


The new Lotus, if it doesn't get restricted right away, will be absolutely BROKEN with Goblin Welder.

Slaver is already broken when it has Lotus in the yard, can you imagine the possibilities of running 4?

The discussion has been beaten to death; Gilded Lotus does everything Slow Lotus does, except it's also hardcastable in a pinch, and it makes Lotus mana every turn.  I don't understand your point...  Neutral
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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2006, 08:26:20 pm »

Grapeshot (1)(R)
Sorcery 
Grapeshot deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
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Wouldn't Brain Freeze be just as good, if not better (blue is a better color and more useful MD)?
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« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2006, 03:37:23 am »

Maindeck Brainfreeze? Hm, it is blue and therefore easier to cast and pitchable. Does require a high storm count aswell though, and is a dead card versus most decks. If the entire meta becomes storm running it main might not even be such a bad idea Very Happy . In the sideboard though Grapeshot being a sorcery and doubling as creature removal have to be taken into account.



How about this new card? I'd say at 2(U)(U)(U) there's more interesting things to do in this format. Control is the matchup it might be useful in, and there's probably better/more versatile sideboard cards against control. Anybody got good ideas for using this card?
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2006, 02:41:30 pm »

This card makes me soooo happy.  Tefri is going to be an absolute beating in constructed.  Also, did you guys here there is going to be an Urza and a Mishra in this block?

They have spoiled the Mishra card on the WOTC website.
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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2006, 06:39:17 pm »

Does anybody have any idea how Suspend actually works yet? If you can Weld this back in after a thirst for knowledge without any suspend needed then this is absolutely broken as a 4-of. I'd also like to know if this works from the graveyard with Yawgmoth's Will. Nothing on the card says you can not play this from anywhere but your hand.  I was goldfishing a deck this afternoon. It is based around Gifts and uses four of these blooms. Some games I had 2-3 of these in my opening hand and by turn three I had 2-3 black lotuses in play. How is that not insane? I am pretty sure this is going to be restricted upon release because the potential of having more than one Black Lotus in play by turn three is pretty crazy, especially in a deck that needed a critical mass of mana to explode.

I really like the ideas in this set.
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« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2006, 01:07:20 am »

If you can Weld this back in after a thirst for knowledge without any suspend needed then this is absolutely broken as a 4-of.

Gilded Lotus is infinitely better with TfK + Welder, and that card is not playable in Slaver.

Some games I had 2-3 of these in my opening hand and by turn three I had 2-3 black

Actually suspend only allows you to have them by turn 4 at the earliest. Which means, if you're on the play, you have to survive at least 3 of your opponents turns with what is essentially a forced mulligan, and on the draw, make that 4 turns. Granted, Gilded Lotus wouldn't be any better than Lotus Bloom for playing earlier, but its interaction with TfK is infinitely stronger. In any case, that's neither here nor there - neither card provides the quick acceleration needed in the early turns, and neither card has a game ending effect when welded or tinkered.
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