B&R update?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Timespiral:  This card is actually a lot better than people give it credit for.  It may not be useful in current combo decks like long (~11-12 land) but in a slower TPS style deck (~13-15lands) I can easily see it being abused as a 4-of.  This card isnt't just insane with acadamy, it is incredibly good with even 2-3 lands in play, because by untapping your lets you get back all of the precious coloured mana you spent; something that isn't usually the case with draw 7s; even without acadamy, with 2 lands Spiral costs 4 (arguably better than 2U/R) and with 3 lands it costs 3 (better than any other draw 7).  This card definitely deserves its restricted status.

[ErkBek]

Timespiral:  This card is actually a lot better than people give it credit for.  It may not be useful in current combo decks like long (~11-12 land) but in a slower TPS style deck (~13-15lands) I can easily see it being abused as a 4-of.  This card isnt't just insane with acadamy, it is incredibly good with even 2-3 lands in play, because by untapping your lets you get back all of the precious coloured mana you spent; something that isn't usually the case with draw 7s; even without acadamy, with 2 lands Spiral costs 4 (arguably better than 2U/R) and with 3 lands it costs 3 (better than any other draw 7).  This card definitely deserves its restricted status.

The problem is MDG is prob just going to an all round better deck than timespiral.dec

[Liam-K]

Wait wait wait, are you sure you mean "never been objectively good"?  Don't you really mean "has always been objectively good"?  I'm confused.

Don't mind people, they're just latching onto whatever is being hyped atm.  "People are finally figuring out scroll gifts is actually good.  People are finally learning to play combo."
Sorry for the apparent lack of respect Brassy and JD.

I hope I didn't come across like that.  By "people" I didn't mean "certain people" I meant "enough people that you can expect to deal with these decks in the swiss, and not piloted by terribles."  I already said my first statement was unfair and explained why it popped out.

[zeus-online]

Imagine a mind's desire that hits 2 Time spiral's....insane....

Time spiral really IS broken, its just a tad slow (yeah, yeah, the same could be said about dream halls, Mind over matter and future sight)

I really don't see 4x Burning wish.dec comming back again(Assuming it gets unrestricted), unless all the good tutors gets the axe.

/Zeus

[Whatever Works]

Timespiral:  This card is actually a lot better than people give it credit for.  It may not be useful in current combo decks like long (~11-12 land) but in a slower TPS style deck (~13-15lands) I can easily see it being abused as a 4-of.  This card isnt't just insane with acadamy, it is incredibly good with even 2-3 lands in play, because by untapping your lets you get back all of the precious coloured mana you spent; something that isn't usually the case with draw 7s; even without acadamy, with 2 lands Spiral costs 4 (arguably better than 2U/R) and with 3 lands it costs 3 (better than any other draw 7).  This card definitely deserves its restricted status.

The problem is MDG is prob just going to an all round better deck than timespiral.dec

I swear on my life that if timespiral was unrestricted it would instantly become the best deck in the format. Whether it be in a high tide deck, TPS deck, whatever... You give me 4 of those in a deck at a tourney where nobody else can play it as unrestricted. I would bet my life I wouldnt just win the tourney, but I would probably not lose a round.

Unrestricting burning wish is a mistake. If anything we should be restricting more tutors on principle. T1 is finally hitting the point of critical mass where combo is now nothing but insane mana + tutors... and control itself wins in 1-2 turns... And budget decks are now officially 100% unviable.
 
The last thing we need to do is make combo better.

[jpmeyer]

I honestly can't see a High Tide deck being better than both Dragon and Grim Long, much less so much better that you'd go undefeated in games in a tourney with it when you wouldn't with one of those two decks.

[vroman]

Taking black vise off could be the worst Idea ever. Give me a deck that runs 4 black vise, and I will give you a dominating tier 1 deck that distorts the format.

then fucking give it to us already! Im really, really interested in seeing your dominant vise deck. I have some signed beta black vises, just waiting to skyrocket in value, thanks to you. so give up the tech.

[BreathWeapon]

Fact or Fiction, Regrowth, Mind Twist and Burning Wish are all safe and interesting enough to remove from the restricted list. Fact or Fiction is worse than Gifts Ungiven and arguably worse than Thirst for Knowledge. Regrowth's affect is either a retro-active counterspell in control or a possible recursion engine with ESG in combo, I think it would be really interesting to see what people could do with it if it was taken off the list. Mind Twist, no one uses a single copy of the card now, and for 4 or so mana you could just cast Gifts Ungiven. Burning Wish was in the wrong place at the wrong time with Lion's Eye Diamond, the card is incredibly cool to play with in 1.5, and it may bring back more control strategies or create more combo control strategies

About the only card I wish they would restrict is Gifts Ungiven, the fact that it's unrestricted and Fact or Fiction is restricted is a serious WTF in my book.

[Implacable]

Honestly, in the current metagame, the unrestriction of Fact or Fiction does have some merit.  Drain decks already have ridiculous ways to spend their mana: namely, Mindslaver and Yawgmoth's Will.  While Fact or Fiction is ridiculous in card advantage terms, it is no more ridiculous than an activated 'Slaver.  Furthermore, Fact or Fiction is a spell that at least requires some play skill, both playing against it and with it.  That is something that definiteiy should be encouraged in vintage.  Finally, I have a soft spot for BBS, and really, would that deck be so bad for the meta right now?  I don't have a problem with a deck that's great against Long (even though I play it!).

[Whatever Works]

Taking black vise off could be the worst Idea ever. Give me a deck that runs 4 black vise, and I will give you a dominating tier 1 deck that distorts the format.

then fucking give it to us already! Im really, really interested in seeing your dominant vise deck. I have some signed beta black vises, just waiting to skyrocket in value, thanks to you. so give up the tech.

Well unless the restricted list changed and I wasnt informed about it then why would me giving a vise list raise the card value? If I do provide a good list then wouldnt that only possibly prevent the unrestriction of the card, and therefor never allow the card to even go up in value?

Having played w/black vise WAY back in the day the card is absollutly insane in multiples, and in any kind of prison deck its just amazing. It might be boarded out vs. combo and decks that drop there hand turn 1, but then again... Its the kinda card that forces your opponent to do that, and that can be taken advantage of.

If you really like I could probably throw together a list, but with it restricted there isnt exactly much motivation or purpose.

@Breathweapon I disagree w/everything you just said. Everything... FoF > Gifts in multiples... Its not even debatable at all... BBS was perhaps one of the most broken decks of all time b/c of FoF... and this was before fetchlands would make the deck be able to abuse multiple colors...

[BreathWeapon]

You have to be high, put together a BBS with multiple colors, see if it beats MD Gifts; it wont. Gifts Ungiven is so much better than Fact or Fiction it's embarrassing to have one restricted and not the other. BBS lost to Sligh and Suicide, the horror ... the horror ... Instead of saying Black Vice is broken, I have an incredible deck and Fact or Fiction is broken, I have an incredible deck, why don't you step up and prove it, chicken little?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Screw BBS, I'd play Keeper with a right quickness!

But seriously, I don't think black vise should be unrestricted based on principle. The fact that it's possible to luck out and go lotus, 3x vise will piss off many a people. The same goes for Mind Twist.

Fact and Gifts are similar, but different. Gifts is a set-up card that can gain you card advantage. Fact is a monster draw engine that powers through your deck. A fact chain can be much more devastating than a Gifts chain.

I'm alright with the DCI doing nothing, but I think voltaic key can safely come off.

On a different note, when the fuck is Wizards going to release the list?

[zeus-online]

FoF is just sooo good as a draw-engine, i honestly believe its the second strongest blue card drawer ever, only card that challenges it for the spot of 2nd best is Gush.

I'd be running 4 fof and a couple of gifts...Gifts ungiven is superior as a "finisher", but for the purpose of drawing cards and building your resources up, fof is much better.

Also, why play BBS? You can play FoF in ANY deck, thats part of what makes it so good.

/Zeus

[diopter]

Fact or Fiction, Regrowth, Mind Twist and Burning Wish are all safe and interesting enough to remove from the restricted list. Fact or Fiction is worse than Gifts Ungiven and arguably worse than Thirst for Knowledge. Regrowth's affect is either a retro-active counterspell in control or a possible recursion engine with ESG in combo, I think it would be really interesting to see what people could do with it if it was taken off the list. Mind Twist, no one uses a single copy of the card now, and for 4 or so mana you could just cast Gifts Ungiven. Burning Wish was in the wrong place at the wrong time with Lion's Eye Diamond, the card is incredibly cool to play with in 1.5, and it may bring back more control strategies or create more combo control strategies

About the only card I wish they would restrict is Gifts Ungiven, the fact that it's unrestricted and Fact or Fiction is restricted is a serious WTF in my book.

I have to disagree with you too. Fact or Fiction in multiples is sick because it does not have diminishing returns, unlike Gifts Ungiven. As for a broken Fact deck, go -3 Gifts +3 Fact in Meandeck Gifts as Stephen Menendian suggested in a thread a while back. 4 Facts could also fundamentally change Control Slaver.

And you seem to think that Burning Wish was restricted just because of LED and thus is only effective with LED. Wrong. It was Will that got Burning Wish restricted. Burning Wish would be absolutely insane in today's control decks. Just try -1 Recoup -1 Will -1 Rebuild +3 Burning Wish in Meandeck Gifts. It would be insane, and that's not even half-tuned to abuse Burning Wish.

[Liam-K]

Screw BBS, I'd play Keeper with a right quickness!

But seriously, I don't think black vise should be unrestricted based on principle. The fact that it's possible to luck out and go lotus, 3x vise will piss off many a people. The same goes for Mind Twist.

More than lotus, ritual, ritual, grim tutor?  That's more likely and sucks worse.

[zeus-online]

Its far more demoralising to get twist'ed right out of the game. or vise'd right out of the game.

/Zeus

[BreathWeapon]

Fact or Fiction, Regrowth, Mind Twist and Burning Wish are all safe and interesting enough to remove from the restricted list. Fact or Fiction is worse than Gifts Ungiven and arguably worse than Thirst for Knowledge. Regrowth's affect is either a retro-active counterspell in control or a possible recursion engine with ESG in combo, I think it would be really interesting to see what people could do with it if it was taken off the list. Mind Twist, no one uses a single copy of the card now, and for 4 or so mana you could just cast Gifts Ungiven. Burning Wish was in the wrong place at the wrong time with Lion's Eye Diamond, the card is incredibly cool to play with in 1.5, and it may bring back more control strategies or create more combo control strategies

About the only card I wish they would restrict is Gifts Ungiven, the fact that it's unrestricted and Fact or Fiction is restricted is a serious WTF in my book.

I have to disagree with you too. Fact or Fiction in multiples is sick because it does not have diminishing returns, unlike Gifts Ungiven. As for a broken Fact deck, go -3 Gifts +3 Fact in Meandeck Gifts as Stephen Menendian suggested in a thread a while back. 4 Facts could also fundamentally change Control Slaver.

And you seem to think that Burning Wish was restricted just because of LED and thus is only effective with LED. Wrong. It was Will that got Burning Wish restricted. Burning Wish would be absolutely insane in today's control decks. Just try -1 Recoup -1 Will -1 Rebuild +3 Burning Wish in Meandeck Gifts. It would be insane, and that's not even half-tuned to abuse Burning Wish.

Gifts Ungiven doesn't really have diminishing returns either, you can always get acceleration, land, counters or other various combinations. Besides, when a card ends the game after its resolved, diminishing returns is irrelevant, Necro Summer case in point.

You have to be kidding me, so it was a coincidence that LED and Burning Wish were in the same deck and banned at the same time ... So instead of being able to Gifts Ungiven, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, top deck or Brainstorm into Yawgmoth's Will, I'm going to include 3 Burning Wish, prematurely fetch Volcanic Islands and telegraph Yawgmoth's Will?

Let's have Gush back to, GAT would be fun, and Tog needs a lift.

[Methuselahn]

Screw BBS, I'd play Keeper with a right quickness!

But seriously, I don't think black vise should be unrestricted based on principle. The fact that it's possible to luck out and go lotus, 3x vise will piss off many a people. The same goes for Mind Twist.

Having played w/black vise WAY back in the day the card is absollutly insane in multiples, and in any kind of prison deck its just amazing. It might be boarded out vs. combo and decks that drop there hand turn 1, but then again... Its the kinda card that forces your opponent to do that, and that can be taken advantage of.

If you really like I could probably throw together a list, but with it restricted there isnt exactly much motivation or purpose.

See, people keep talking about getting multiple vices played against them like it would happen every other game.  The truth is, you're not playing with 7 or 8 Black Vise in a deck, just 4.  This makes the actual frequency of drawing multiples in your opening hand much less likely than the apparent concieved notion.

Please, throw together a list that breaks Black Vise, you say that it's broken, so show us a list to back up your words.  Shouldn't that be motivation enough?  I'm fairly sure this is what vroman is saying as well.

[Evenpence]

Having played w/black vise WAY back in the day the card is absollutly insane in multiples, and in any kind of prison deck its just amazing.

I wouldn't play Vise in Prison.  It doesn't disrupt the opponent.  I'm essentially mulliganing to five if I get double Vise openings in Stax.

[Methuselahn]

Exactly.  Not only does it NOT affect board position, which Stax is all about, but were not in the same "WAY back in the day" times where Strip Mine is unrestricted, Sinkhole decks were viable, and garbage like Sui.dec had a chance.

[diopter]

Gifts Ungiven doesn't really have diminishing returns either, you can always get acceleration, land, counters or other various combinations. Besides, when a card ends the game after its resolved, diminishing returns is irrelevant, Necro Summer case in point.

You have to be kidding me, so it was a coincidence that LED and Burning Wish were in the same deck and banned at the same time ... So instead of being able to Gifts Ungiven, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, top deck or Brainstorm into Yawgmoth's Will, I'm going to include 3 Burning Wish, prematurely fetch Volcanic Islands and telegraph Yawgmoth's Will?

Let's have Gush back to, GAT would be fun, and Tog needs a lift.

Gifts does not "end the game when it resolves" unless you are in a position to end the game with it - that is, you have a mana advantage so that you can cast the broken sorceries that you fetch, and you can protect the Gifts with countermagic if necessary. Fact, however, will naturally give you more mana while simulteanously allowing you to chain more Facts and get more countermagic. You can get countermagic or mana with Gifts too, but that just makes it a poor Fact or Fiction. Don't get me wrong, Gifts is a strong card, and arguably stronger than Fact as a 1x, but 4x Fact is insane.

As for Burning Wish, many people, especially on the Legacy forums, have already told you that Burning Wish was restricted because of Yawgmoth's Will, not because of its interaction with LED. Enough has been said about that. But I have to comment on your example. If you think Gifts for Demonic, Mystical, Vamp, Card X is a better play than, say, Scroll ->Ancestral followed by Burning Wish -> Yawgmoth's Will, then I wish you good luck in winning attrition wars in the mirror. Hell, even without unrestricted Wish, unless you're about to win and need Yawgmoth's Will right now, you're probably best served playing Gifts for Tinker, Ancestral, Demonic, Time Walk instead.

[BreathWeapon]

Burning Wish was not restricted because of Yawgmoth's Will; Burning Wish was used in Keeper, or rather "The Shining," with Future Sight for a combo kill with Tendrils of Agony, and Burning Wish was used in Chalice Keeper to move all of its bullets to the SB, and no one complained about it then. I don't care what any one else says, I was there, and there was no justification for restricting Burning Wish before it was used in Long with Lion's Eye Diamond. They were restricted at the exact same time when they were in the exact same deck, furthermore, why wasn't Death Wish restricted because of its interaction with Yawgmoth's Will? Restricting Burning Wish was an excessive reaction to Long, failed at elminating the problem, and unfairly removed a viable control card from control.

Also, I love how the counter argument for every restricted card is always, insert restricted card into ridiculous situation X and act like it is a relevant counter argument. Oh no, Black Lotus into 4 Black Vices!!!

[PacmanXSA]

Having played w/black vise WAY back in the day the card is absollutly insane in multiples, and in any kind of prison deck its just amazing.

I wouldn't play Vise in Prison.  It doesn't disrupt the opponent.  I'm essentially mulliganing to five if I get double Vise openings in Stax.

How often can you pin your opponent down for 4-5 draw-go turns when playing prison?  Quite often I am left sitting there pinning down my opponent and waiting for a clock.  Vise would be this clock.  While prison would have to morph a bit, I seriously think that 4x vise would find their way into my list.

Pac

[Mindstab_Thrull]

So, the discussion in the TMD chat room right now, due to this topic, is about Gifts Ungiven vs Fact or Fiction. From my inexperienced point of view, the only deck I know of that would really care about having FoF over Gifts would be Psychatog; most of the other decks would rather run Gifts. They're both instants for 3U, but with different ideas behind them:

Gifts Ungiven
Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal them. Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen cards into your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Fact or Fiction
Reveal the top five cards of your library. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other into your graveyard.

FoF digs five cards deeper into your deck; Gifts goes four. Both usually put two cards into your hand and two (Gifts) or three (FoF) into your graveyard. The question, I think, boils down more to a question of utility. FoF is a card-drawing card, whereas Gifts is a tutor. If your deck needs more card drawing, like Psychatog, then you'd rather have 4x Fact or Fiction. If your deck wants more search, like Workshop decks, you want Gifts instead. That's not to say that a deck with Shops won't run card-drawing like Ancestral, or Tog won't run search like Demonic Tutor, but when you're looking at that four-mana instant slot, you better know which one you want to put in and why.

As for the other cards - Regrowth seems to me to be a safe bet for coming off; Vise should definitely stay on. A turn 1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Black Vise x3 should not be a game-winning move.

[diopter]

Burning Wish was not restricted because of Yawgmoth's Will; Burning Wish was used in Keeper, or rather "The Shining," with Future Sight for a combo kill with Tendrils of Agony, and Burning Wish was used in Chalice Keeper to move all of its bullets to the SB, and no one complained about it then. I don't care what any one else says, I was there, and there was no justification for restricting Burning Wish before it was used in Long with Lion's Eye Diamond. They were restricted at the exact same time when they were in the exact same deck, furthermore, why wasn't Death Wish restricted because of its interaction with Yawgmoth's Will? Restricting Burning Wish was an excessive reaction to Long, failed at elminating the problem, and unfairly removed a viable control card from control.

Also, I love how the counter argument for every restricted card is always, insert restricted card into ridiculous situation X and act like it is a relevant counter argument. Oh no, Black Lotus into 4 Black Vices!!!

Control decks are much better built now than 3 years ago, and we have much better draw engines to abuse Burning Wish -> Will. I saw some of the old Shining lists too, and they would have been on the verge of broken had they been optimized to take advantage of Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral or even AK, in conjunction with Wish -> Will. And given the presence of Gifts and Thirst in our current cardpool, I don't know how you can deny that giving Control 4x Will is fair or not busted.

[Whatever Works]

Make fun of 3 black vises hitting the board turn 1 all you want. Honestly though, if that actually happened... Unless your going to kill them turn 1 your most likely going to be taking 9 damage... and then they will drop a chalice at 0 or 1... or tanglewire... and you will be playing draw, go, and then you die... unless you drop a hand full of moxes which isnt always the case... and if it is... the stax player has overextended you into a mox monkey or into a possition of weakness where brainstorm/thirst/etc. arent very good.

I am not saying that 3 in opening hand is always great, but dont laugh at it because its a pretty dumb way to die... Its a very swingy card that literally FORCED players to run moxes in the first place back in the day.

@breathweapon

Do I really have to make some new FoF list to prove that I am right... I mean even a 4 years out of date BBS list by smennen would still be able to proove my point about the strength of the card... I would take that deck list vs. basically any deck in the format in a best of 3 if the sideboard is tweaked for the metagame.

FoF is that insane. It cant even be debated.

Kyle L

[Character000]

A turn 1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Black Vise x3 should not be a game-winning move.

More than lotus, ritual, ritual, grim tutor?  That's more likely and sucks worse.

we've been over this.

[Methuselahn]

@ Character000,

Please explain the relevance of your statement.  I honestly don't know where you're going with that.

Kyle,

I don't find your examples to be helping your argument at all.

"3 vises on turn 1."  - If you lucksack 3 vises on turn one (look at the percentages of getting 3 in your opening grip) AND get to go first AND are able to drop chalice for 0 or 1 or(which I can still throw spells into anyway) then I will gladly accept the fact that I lose. 

"and you will be playing draw, go, and then you die"  - Wait, which deck are you assuming that I'm playing?

"the stax player has overextended you into a mox monkey or into a possition of weakness where brainstorm/thirst/etc. arent very good." - Ok, so stax plays multiple vises, thereby NOT playing lock pieces.  This is suppossed to make me overextend into Stax's lock pieces?

"it's a dumb way to die"  - Totally based on opinion.

"FORCED to play moxen" - People were not forced to play moxen because of black vise.  That's absurd.  Moxen >> Black Vise.

C'mon Kyle.  Don't threaten to make decks to prove your point then not make them when asked to.

[Apollyon]

No changes. That is the last Official word that I've received about the list.

[Whatever Works]

C'mon Kyle.  Don't threaten to make decks to prove your point then not make them when asked to.

I was being hypathetical with the statement. If 4 black vise was legal it would clearly have a huge impact on the format and be a format defining card. Just because I state this and believe it whole heartedly doesnt mean that I should be expected to build a deck that isnt even legal with limited time.

The main point against the card is that it is extremely extremely swingy in nature. (sure dark ritual is too etc.), but the only reason dark ritual is unrestricted is because it keeps workshop & drain in check.

Kyle L