B&R update?

[vroman]

Aren't they supposed to announce any changes on Sep 1?
Anyway, I make my same recomendation as always:

Definitely unrestrict:
black vise
dream halls
grim monolith
voltaic key

Possibly unrestrict:
mox diamond
enlightened tutor
regrowth
time spiral

Possibly restrict:
gifts ungiven

[Evenpence]

Now Vroman, we can't be bias and ask for the unrestriction of Voltaic Key AND Grim Monolith. 

I think Black Vise would also be a mistake to unrestrict.  It would distort wins to those of lower skill, although obviously, I wouldn't care because I drop my hand like an angry father.

Dream Halls can come off.

Mox Diamond would also probably be fine to unrestrict, although I'm hesitant.

Regrowth and Time Spiral have to stay on.

They won't restrict anything for a long time, hopefully.

[jaeppel]

Unrestrict Trinisphere, Re-restrict Workshop.

I know this will never happen, but i have always been of the opinion that trini only needs to be on the list due to its interaction with the happy little artifact shop.  Workshop was restricted, for a very long time, and then somehow lost this status, for some unknown reason (actually someone in R&D had hoarded dozens of shops). 

half of the cards on the list are those cards which break the one mana a turn limit.  if chrome mox is too broken to be run in multiples, then surely the land turning all 3cc artifacts into one-drops breaks the same rule.  it is not as if this restriction would actually shut down any of the artifact archetypes either, it just requires a bit of pain and tomb/city working as slower, and balanced, workshop 2-5.

and really, let us make vise decks again.

[FTKzak]

I wouldn't mind seeing both Gifts and Grim Tutor put on the restricted list. Doing so wouldn't hurt any of the existing archetypes that much, considering that gifts runs merchant scrolls as a 4-of and Grim Long would adapt to fill in the space formerly occupied by 1-2 extra grim tutors.

If tendrils decks continue to put up great results like they have been recently, I could see Grim getting restricted in December for sure.

Same thing goes for MDG...despite the loss of FlameVault in Gifts decks, its as strong as ever, and probably better than it was before.

I think the DCI would be able to make better choices about the B&R list if more was known about the effect that Coldsnap will have on Vintage...so in all likelyhood, nothing will happen with this update, but look for some changes in December.

[vroman]

Now Vroman, we can't be bias and ask for the unrestriction of Voltaic Key AND Grim Monolith.

why not? both these cards are worse than metal worker, which is unrestricted. if key and monolith saw lots of play, it would just increase viability of stax/fish null rod decks. if not monolith, key is definitely harmless.

I think Black Vise would also be a mistake to unrestrict.  It would distort wins to those of lower skill,

how? show me a tier list that would be improved by cutting 4 cards from their main for vises.

[Evenpence]

Now Vroman, we can't be bias and ask for the unrestriction of Voltaic Key AND Grim Monolith.

why not? both these cards are worse than metal worker, which is unrestricted. if key and monolith saw lots of play, it would just increase viability of stax/fish null rod decks. if not monolith, key is definitely harmless.

If Wizards is printing new sets for all the other colors, they probably should throw Stax a bone once in a while, right? 

I think Voltaic Key + Monolith is stronger than Metalworker, because the deck requirements for Metalworker are much greater.

Metalworker also takes a turn to get online, and is also susceptible to creature kill (although our format is weak in this area, it's still a factor).

Metalworker is much weaker than 4 Monolith/4 Key.

I think Black Vise would also be a mistake to unrestrict.  It would distort wins to those of lower skill,

how? show me a tier list that would be improved by cutting 4 cards from their main for vises.

You got me.  Black Vise probably should come off, just to see what stirs it will make.

[chrissss]

Time spiral isn't too powerfull. nobody plays it, and having 4 in your deck doesn't really improve it. 6CC spells just have to be soo good, that they win the game, and TS, a draw 7, just doesn't do that.

Voltaic or Grim monolith would be good, but both is maybe a bit too much to start with.

Gifts, well Imo its a stronger card than FOF, because here you can basically choose 4 cards you need in your graveyard and / or in your hand, and you have them. Fof still has a luck factor which determines the Fofs success.

[sundering jerk]

Grim tutor definitely needs to be restricted. It has the same effect as Demonic Tutor which is restricted and only costs a black more and 3 life.
And let's face it guys in type one the first 19 are just for show.

[Disburden]

Gifts, well Imo its a stronger card than FOF, because here you can basically choose 4 cards you need in your graveyard and / or in your hand, and you have them. Fof still has a luck factor which determines the Fofs success.

I have built myself an old version of BBS with four Fact or Fictions. I Was curious about the deck, so I built it and tested it to see how stupid it is. It is without a doubt more incredibly busted than a deck with four Gifts and one Fact.

Gifts and Fact aren't even the same type of card. The text may make you think that it is similiar, but Gifts just tutors for cards. Fact or fiction draws you your entire deck and everytime your opponent has an EOT you cast Fact or Fiction and pawn them. Four Facts is the most incredible card advantage I have seen in a deck. If they unrestricted Fact I would definitely be playing Mono -U.

With that said there is no way Gifts should be restricted. It hasn't dominated or warped anything. 4 Fact or Fiction did.

[Khahan]

I wouldn't mind seeing both Gifts and Grim Tutor put on the restricted list. Doing so wouldn't hurt any of the existing archetypes that much, considering that gifts runs merchant scrolls as a 4-of and Grim Long would adapt to fill in the space formerly occupied by 1-2 extra grim tutors.

So why do they need to be restricted? If they won't affect any archetypes by taking copies away, it means no archetypes are running 4 copies. Which means its not all the overly powered.  It would free up 1-2 slots in a handful of archetypes for other stuff.

But if it ain't broke, don't restrict it. And they ain't broke.

If tendrils decks continue to put up great results like they have been recently, I could see Grim getting restricted in December for sure.

Just the results of 1 deck type are not enough to warrant restriction.   If you add in results (which we have) with format dominance of the deck that features the card (which we don't have) with prevalance of the card in the format (meaning decks either pack it or pack against it....which we don't have), then you have a case for restriction.

I think the DCI would be able to make better choices about the B&R list if more was known about the effect that Coldsnap will have on Vintage...so in all likelyhood, nothing will happen with this update, but look for some changes in December.

Probably true.

[UR]

Grim tutor definitely needs to be restricted. It has the same effect as Demonic Tutor which is restricted and only costs a black more and 3 life.
And let's face it guys in type one the first 19 are just for show.

Let's face it, the first 19 are irrelevant in any format.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

diamond is no where near close to unrestrictable. Chrome mox would have warped it stayed unrestricted. (It was restricted just as the rapid development of vintage decks began)

[FTKzak]

I wouldn't mind seeing both Gifts and Grim Tutor put on the restricted list. Doing so wouldn't hurt any of the existing archetypes that much, considering that gifts runs merchant scrolls as a 4-of and Grim Long would adapt to fill in the space formerly occupied by 1-2 extra grim tutors.

So why do they need to be restricted? If they won't affect any archetypes by taking copies away, it means no archetypes are running 4 copies. Which means its not all the overly powered.  It would free up 1-2 slots in a handful of archetypes for other stuff.

But if it ain't broke, don't restrict it. And they ain't broke.

If tendrils decks continue to put up great results like they have been recently, I could see Grim getting restricted in December for sure.

Just the results of 1 deck type are not enough to warrant restriction.   If you add in results (which we have) with format dominance of the deck that features the card (which we don't have) with prevalance of the card in the format (meaning decks either pack it or pack against it....which we don't have), then you have a case for restriction.

I think the DCI would be able to make better choices about the B&R list if more was known about the effect that Coldsnap will have on Vintage...so in all likelyhood, nothing will happen with this update, but look for some changes in December.

Probably true.

My point was that I can see these two cards becoming problematic within the next three months....right now, they are not a problem. In another three months, when people have had enough time to finally acclimate to post flamevault banning gifts, I can see Gifts Ungiven being a format defining card. The same goes for Grim Tutor...another three months of refining Grim Long, and it might need restricting.

As far as packing the card or packing against it...when's the last time you saw a non-combo deck that didn't run FoW or artifact disruption to stop combo?

If combo starts to dominate the format, what changes can the DCI make to neuter the archetype? Restrict Dark Ritual?....that's never gonna happen. Most decks only run Tendrils as a one-of, or as a sideboard target, so restricting that won't make much of a difference. Every card in the deck (Pitch Long for example) is a singleton other than Brainstorm, Force of Will, Misdirection, Rituals...and Grim Tutor. If there was any card in the deck that would get the axe...that's the one.

Right now, we don't need any restrictions, but in a couple months, if nothing changes now..we could be begging for some serious changes.

[Khahan]

My point was that I can see these two cards becoming problematic within the next three months....right now, they are not a problem. In another three months, when people have had enough time to finally acclimate to post flamevault banning gifts, I can see Gifts Ungiven being a format defining card. The same goes for Grim Tutor...another three months of refining Grim Long, and it might need restricting.

How long have these cards been in T1? Gifts is coming up on 22 months. Grim Tutor has fallen right into the evolution of one of the best decks.
But where do you see them going being so powerful that they would warp the format?  That's exactly my point: They are good, balanced cards. If they had the power to warp the format in 3 months, they'd have the power to warp the format now. They are tutors, not combo pieces. Sure, you can find new combinations of cards to tutor up. BFD. Any given deck has 60 slots. X slots are spent on mana. Y slots are spent on combo pieces (for combo), Z slots are spent on utility. Left over slots are spent on tutors.

As far as packing the card or packing against it...when's the last time you saw a non-combo deck that didn't run FoW or artifact disruption to stop combo?

Wow, running a counterspell is 'packing' against a specific card?  Now I finally understand the format.  Blue decks run Fow for efficient Turn 0 and Turn 1 counters against a VARIETY of decks. Not just combo. In oath, I'd run FoW maindeck against workshop decks to stop first turn trinisphere.  Against combo, I'm stopping DR or any other number of pieces.
FoW is not run specifically against either GT or GU.

If combo starts to dominate the format, what changes can the DCI make to neuter the archetype? Restrict Dark Ritual?....that's never gonna happen. Most decks only run Tendrils as a one-of, or as a sideboard target, so restricting that won't make much of a difference. Every card in the deck (Pitch Long for example) is a singleton other than Brainstorm, Force of Will, Misdirection, Rituals...and Grim Tutor. If there was any card in the deck that would get the axe...that's the one.

If combo starts to dominate the format its up to the DCI to neuter it?  Which combo? Dragon? TPS? Grim or pitch long?
And since when is it up to the DCI? The onus falls on the players. If a particular archetype is dominating, then players will adjust and hate against it. If that fails, then you start seeing crap like the same deck sporting the same new tech putting 4-6 copies in the top8 of major tournaments regularly and then winning those tournaments. Or you'll see the same card causing the same problems in multiple decks (like trinisphere) top 8'ing most tournaments. The difference between that and a card like FoW appearing in multiple top decks is that FoW is not causing problems in the format.

Right now, we don't need any restrictions, but in a couple months, if nothing changes now..we could be begging for some serious changes.

That sounds like a player problem. Not a dci problem. If nothing changes in a few months, then that means that we have
A) Lost a lot of players and have nobody left to innovate
B) As a whole have become complacent and failed to innovate
C)  For some other reason failed to innovate but will still be faced with the most diverse field in T1 for many years, if not ever.

I just don't see understand where your Chicken Little routine is coming from.   We're in the middle of a great generalized meta. At any given major event, you see a wide variety of decks and styles emerging. Grim and pitch long for combo. Oath and fish for control. Ichorid for aggro.  Tons of combo/control. 
No chicken little, that's not a piece of the sky that fell on you.

[Moxlotus]

If people think Grim Tutor needs to be restricted they need to learn how to play a deck that's not Control Slaver.  Seriously.  Pitch Long just folds to a number of decks.  If you want to destroy the deck play MDG or Dragon or find a fish variant.  It's not that hard.  Jeez, why won't people ever stop bitching and just learn to change decks?  <3 Chicken Littles of Rector, Dragon and now Pitch Long.

So Pitch Long got 2 into a top 8.  Wow.  1 of them lost in the prelims.  The other didn't win.  Why are people afraid of this deck being dominating?  Format distorting--yes, in the same way that Shop and Drain is.  But dominating?  No way.

[Cross]

Well put MoxLotus. No point in saying exactly what he said.

Aside from whatever happens, where the hell is the update? Isn't it two days late already, and were on a vacation weekend, so it probably will not be up until tuesday, if then.

[FTKzak]

I just don't see understand where your Chicken Little routine is coming from.   We're in the middle of a great generalized meta. At any given major event, you see a wide variety of decks and styles emerging. Grim and pitch long for combo. Oath and fish for control. Ichorid for aggro.  Tons of combo/control. 
No chicken little, that's not a piece of the sky that fell on you.

You missed my point I guess...all I was trying to say is that I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the restriction of Grim Tutor and Gifts Ungiven sometime in the future. I wasn't saying that I thought they should be restricted, just that they might be. I love it that combo is making top 8's consistently, the variety in high performance decks we've got right now is great.

[Kowal]

diamond is no where near close to unrestrictable. Chrome mox would have warped it stayed unrestricted. (It was restricted just as the rapid development of vintage decks began)

I challenge anyone to make Diamond broken.  The kind of deck you'd want to run the crappy moxes in (decks like combo where you need cheap spells and mana) are by necessity light on land.  Chrome is still shit, and it's a world ahead of Diamond in terms of usefulness.

[jpmeyer]

In general, if Wizards takes their sweet time posting the B/R list update, it means that there were no changes.

[zeus-online]

Everyone is always talking about unrestrict this, unrestrict that, and omg! That card that just beat me, needs to go away! Heh....happens prior to ANY B&R update.

Anyway i took a peek at the list:
Cards that wouldnt cause any problems whatsoever:
Dream halls - The card is sick, the deck sucks...you have to run crap-cards in order for it to work, and the card costs 3UU.
Enlightened tutor - Noone is running this now, and no one will if it gets unrestricted...what are you gonna find anyway?
Mox diamond - There's like...no deck that can use this currently?
Chrome mox - Same as the diamond...in a format with null rod's, chalices, mox monkey's etc. i see no reason for weakening the mana base by including these moxen.
Voltaic key - Yay, good old uselessness.
Grim monolith - Power artifact/monolith isnt good enough, as acceleration this thing isnt all that usefull either, since you need 2 mana just to get it on the board.

Dangerous stuff that may come off:
Burning wish - with all the tutors in type 1, i don't see this being good enough...Do you really want to put your best card in the SB? When you could just as easily run a butt-load of tutors and the card MD?
Personal tutor - Personally i believe this card is weaker then all of the other playable tutors (Including grim tutor and merchant scroll)
Time spiral - Yeah its slow, but its effect is incredibly powerful.
Black vise - Not sure which deck could use this thing? But its damn annoying, so it should stay for being "Unfun"

/Zeus

[sean1i0]

I think that Burning Wish is way too broken for Wizards to ever conceive of taking it off, personally.  It's just such a low cost for some of the most broken cards in the game (i.e. Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor, Balance, Time Walk, Mind Twist, etc.).  I'm not saying that you would necessarily want to run all of those cards in the sideboard, but it would be great to be able to take up to 5 Yawgmoth's Wills in 1 game.  You could just do so much sick shit with that card in multiples.

[zeus-online]

Hmm you can already play with:
4 Grim tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Personal tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Imperial seal

Why would you wanna SB will when you can run all those tutors?

I know burning wish is cheaper (mana wise) It is, however, red which makes it harder to cast then the other tutors.

/Zeus

[marcb]

Burning Wish is too powerful to be unrestricted. Burning Wish let's you retrieve Y. Will after you've cast it. I know someone will say that you have won after you cast it, but if I knew I could get it back multiple times, then I would definitely be much more willing to Y. Will early in the game just to cast ancestral or timewalk again for tempo and CA knowing that I may draw into a Burning Wish soon which will let me recast Will when I want to win with it. The only real question is if it were unrestricted are there enough metagame slots in deck X to go up to 2-4 BW. I don't know.

Marc

[Lyle H]

Hmm you can already play with:
4 Grim tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Personal tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Imperial seal

Why would you wanna SB will when you can run all those tutors?

I know burning wish is cheaper (mana wise) It is, however, red which makes it harder to cast then the other tutors.

/Zeus

After you Will, it removes itself from the game.

Personally I feel Burning Wish would be absolutely insane unrestricted.  Many control archetypes already play 1 with a SB for it just for that utility in the MD.  Give me 3 burning Wish in control decks I dare you. It would be a mistake and a huge boon to the Mana Drain archetypes. Wish would end up being a Grim Tutor style of card, where a full set isn't played but having a few spare sure would be nice.

Im not sure if I just argued for or against unrestricted Wish right there.

[zeus-online]

I know will removes itself, and i know you can retrieve it with burning wish...but how often do you find yourself doing that?
I have no problem using Will early without burning wish. You should be able to win off an early will for CA and tempo, or you're doing something wrong.

I find it rather narrow to include B. wish for that purpose.

/Zeus

[Liek]

Enlightened tutor - Noone is running this now, and no one will if it gets unrestricted...what are you gonna find anyway?

Black Lotus, most likely.

Also, I play this card in my Fish sideboard.

[zeus-online]

Enlightened tutor - Noone is running this now, and no one will if it gets unrestricted...what are you gonna find anyway?

Black Lotus, most likely.

Also, I play this card in my Fish sideboard.

Yeah i've had that argument thrown at me before....Having 4 tutors for lotus, which can't find any other usefull card seems rather narrow.

Also, i generally don't think any fish SB card needs restriction....

/Zeus

[andrewpate]

Enlightened Tutor also gets Fastbond, which could be very dangerous.

Also:  I really don't like talking about restricting/unrestricting a card based on how similar it is to other cards.  Like saying that B and 3 life isn't that much of an extra cost, so Grim Tutor should be restricted along with Demonic Tutor.  I much prefer discussing cards in the context of the format.  The current format is diverse and full of interesting decks that vie with one another for supremacy.  Because of this, I see no need for restrictions.

That said, a few unrestrictions would not go amiss.  I tend to agree with most everyone else that the likes of Dream Halls, Voltaic Key, etc. would be fine coming off.

[yespuhyren]

I personally believe the format is extremely well balanced.  Combo, Shop, and Drains are all making good showings, and therefore nothing should be restricted.  I feel we can definitely undrestrict some stuff just for more deck diversity.

[wraith985]

Also:  I really don't like talking about restricting/unrestricting a card based on how similar it is to other cards.  Like saying that B and 3 life isn't that much of an extra cost, so Grim Tutor should be restricted along with Demonic Tutor.  I much prefer discussing cards in the context of the format.

I totally agree with this statement, and in fact you actually can't justify a restriction by doing this; after all, Diabolic Tutor is just 1 more and you don't have to pay 3 life. Slippery slope, etc. Cards should be discussed on their own merits.

IMO - Burning Wish is too insane to come off, Mox Diamond wouldn't make much of a splash as long as Fastbond stayed restricted or a compelling reason to want land in your grave came along (no, Crucible isn't that reason), Grim Tutor is fine, Gifts Ungiven is fine, and the format is as vibrant as it's been in a long time.

Dream Halls should come off, as should Voltaic Key.