Ritual Redux

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Well, I've already looked through the threads, and I can't find anything about this (unless I was looking in the wrong place), so I figured I'll try it here..

Red is now the home of the Ritual ability, from cards like Seething Song to Braids of Fire to Skirk Prospector. So, that being said, how do you build a Dark Ritual-like card in a black flavour? I've seen one or two red Rituals float around on here (one being R, Instant, Add RRR to your mana pool. ~ deals 3 damage to you.) so I figure if it's going to fit along that lines, perhaps a similar idea with a life loss. Barring that, what about sacrificing a permanent? So..


Instant
Add {B}{B} to your mana pool. Lose half your life rounded up.

It's generally agreed that Dark Ritual is a very strong card, so correspondingly should it not have a strong drawback? As for the other option..


Instant
As an addtional cost to play ~, sacrifice a permanent.
Add {B}{B} to your mana pool.

Or simply make it sacrifice a class of permanent - land, swamp, or creature being the most likely options.

[Matt]

If you make it sacrifice permanents, you're just guaranteeing that it will ONLY be used in combo.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

You think the life loss solution is better then? And would it be better with a fixed amount of life lost?

Incidentally, without using the smileys window, how do you get the mana symbols to come up properly? Or is that the only way?

[ghostchild]

I think that Dark Ritual could be redone by simply adding "You lose 3 life". The main reason to do this would be to make a fixed version of an iconic card, for the type 2 environment. But, of course, would mean that decks in Legacy and Vintage would be able to play effectively 8 dark rituals, which seems scary. Probably the solution would be to allow this in Legacy (but watch it closely), but restrict Dark Ritual in Vintage.

[parallax]

I don't think "lose 3 life" is enough of a drawback for Dark Ritual. Maybe if it cost two mana and gave you four and you lost three life, that would be close to fair.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, let me do some quick math here..

Cards with threshold are basically costed as if half the time they accomplish pre-threshold, and half of them are post-threshold; thus the cost is halfway. For example:

Toxic Stench

Instant
Target nonblack creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Threshold -- Instead destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated. #(You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)#

Stitch Together

Sorcery
Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Threshold -- Instead return that card from your graveyard to play. #(You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)#

Toxic Stench would be costed at around 1 mana, probably since it says nonblack, for the non-threshold abilty, and at threshold it's a Dark Banishing. Thus, averaging the two gives you . Likewise, Stitch Together is for Raise Dead, for Zombify, which is (1.5) or arguably - Stitch Together's mana cost.

Where does this come in? Cabal Ritual. Pre-threshold it gives you , post-threshold it gives you , which means that for you should be able to get a spell that gives you - without a life loss. That being said, as I mentioned before, the Ritual ability has been shifted over to Red. But for getting   for I think that four life would be more appropriate. Three seems like a better fit to me for Dark Ritual.

The reason I'm saying this is because:

I don't think "lose 3 life" is enough of a drawback for Dark Ritual. Maybe if it cost two mana and gave you four and you lost three life, that would be close to fair.

For it to be 'fair', you're saying give it the equivalent cost and ability of an 'average' Cabal Ritual, but mathematically a lower life loss than what I proposed. With a greater cost and greater effect, you'd expect a greater life loss.

[parallax]

OK, let me do some quick math here..

Cards with threshold are basically costed as if half the time they accomplish pre-threshold, and half of them are post-threshold; thus the cost is halfway. For example:

Toxic Stench

Instant
Target nonblack creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Threshold -- Instead destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated. #(You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)#

Stitch Together

Sorcery
Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Threshold -- Instead return that card from your graveyard to play. #(You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)#

Toxic Stench would be costed at around 1 mana, probably since it says nonblack, for the non-threshold abilty, and at threshold it's a Dark Banishing. Thus, averaging the two gives you . Likewise, Stitch Together is for Raise Dead, for Zombify, which is (1.5) or arguably - Stitch Together's mana cost.

Where does this come in? Cabal Ritual. Pre-threshold it gives you , post-threshold it gives you , which means that for you should be able to get a spell that gives you - without a life loss. That being said, as I mentioned before, the Ritual ability has been shifted over to Red. But for getting   for I think that four life would be more appropriate. Three seems like a better fit to me for Dark Ritual.

The reason I'm saying this is because:

I don't think "lose 3 life" is enough of a drawback for Dark Ritual. Maybe if it cost two mana and gave you four and you lost three life, that would be close to fair.

For it to be 'fair', you're saying give it the equivalent cost and ability of an 'average' Cabal Ritual, but mathematically a lower life loss than what I proposed. With a greater cost and greater effect, you'd expect a greater life loss.

Your math is incorrect. You're averaging the costs in the first few examples, and averaging the effects in the Cabal Ritual example.

Also, the math won't work out correctly for mana spells anyway, because the important thing about mana spells is the net increase of mana.

Cabal Ritual (and Desperate Ritual) says +1 mana costs {C}. You can net +2 or +3 only in exceptional circumstances. Also note that mana acceleration is much better in the early game (likely pre-Threshold) whereas an effect like Stitch Together is still powerful later, making the post-Threshold +3 less relevant. Seething Song tells us that +2 mana costs {C}. In other words, Dark Ritual is undercosted by .

I don't think any appropriate drawback will make Dark Ritual fair. However, it is possible to imagine a +2 mana spell for with a significant drawback. The drawback needs to make up for the one-mana reduction and the transfer of the ability from red to black. I'm not sure if 4 life is enough.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

parallax, I disagree. As I said, cards with Threshold seem to be costed based on the average of (cost without threshold) and (cost at threshold). Go through the list of cards with Threshold. I agree it's not a perfect fit 100% of the time, but that's where they've put the costs for the most part. Then compare it to what effect you get at that mana cost with non-threshold cards (not taking other ACC etc mechanics into account, so for example look at Lightning Blast and not Fireblast).

As for:

Also, the math won't work out correctly for mana spells anyway, because the important thing about mana spells is the net increase of mana.

.. look at Seething Song. Granted, it's another color, but the fact to the matter is if it cost one mana less, you should get one mana less. If Black still had the Ritual ability, you'd be paying two mana to get four. The problem with the angle you're looking at is that because under those 'exceptional circumstances' you can get more out of it, the mana cost has to be increased by an approriate amount. Otherwise, they would have simply costed it at and been done with it. And in OTJ, Threshold is pretty easy to come by, especially if you run black; even moreso if you expanded it to any T2 format where OTJ was legal. Duress, Rancid Earth, and Braids were all legal at that time. Only white really had any issue with getting to threshold, as it always would.

At any rate, if you're considering , get , lose four life, then logically for , lose three life should make sense. At least to me it does.

[parallax]

I'm not saying your analysis of Threshold spells is incorrect. I'm saying it doesn't apply to the current card. And Threshold is easy to get, but not in the first three turns, when the difference between mana costs on mana acceleration cards is most significant.

for   is not comparable to to get . The first is strictly better than the second one. Otherwise, by this logic, for would also be fair, and that's a double Lotus Petal. Both Seething Song and Dark Ritual generate two mana, but Dark Ritual is a much, much better card. Getting three mana on turn one is much more relevant than getting four mana on turn two, or five mana on turn three. If black still had the Ritual ability, you would get a black Seething Song and a black Desperate Ritual.

[asi]

Maybe make it LED-like?


LED-Ritual
Instant
Add to your mana pool. Until end of turn, you can't play spells.

It pays for echo!!11! Well, probably has other uses as well.

[dandan]

For the love of all that is evil, when will people understand that for a decent Ritual you need to have a creature present.


Instant
Add {B}{B} to your mana pool if you control at least one creature.

I could also go with Black creature or non-Artifact creature for flavour. Short of Skullclamp combo decks, I can't think of any combo deck that could use it (if you are thinking of Rector then why mess around with a Ritual after you have a Rector!) but aggro Black certainly could.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Xantid Swarm FTW?  There are plenty of creatures you could run in Combo if that card got printed.  Shield Sphere bumps storm.  Confidant Draws cards.  Hell, Helm of Awakening + Priest of Gix might even see play then.

[Matt]

Blood Pet!

[dandan]

Exactly! If combo wants to use Ritual Redux it has to import a bunch of cards that currently don't make the cut in combo and face hate from creature kill as well as dedicated combo hate. A good card is one that is usable and indeed very good in the right deck but which makes a deck designer face some difficult choices.

Note that the land that gives you access to all 5 colours if you control a creature doesn't seem to get much play suggesting that being completely useless if you don't control a creature IS a significant drawback.

[Liam-K]

Culling the weak is already terrible in combo.

Maybe reveal a creature card from your hand?  Then you can still use it first turn.

[dandan]

It'd be good to hear from Mindstab Thrull as I don't want to hijack this thread.

I think that greatly reducing the chance of a turn 1 Ritual is a necessary evil in order to prevent this card being fodder for combo. Seeing as normal use (Standard and Limited) would be turn 1 critter, turn 2 Ritual 4cc critter probably a 4/4 beater or something similarly unpleasant or 2 2CC beaters, I'd see that as strong not wrong.

[MishraTron]

Change B to R for starters. Mana spells are red now. Not black anymore, at all. Deal.

[dandan]

Change B to R for starters. Mana spells are red now. Not black anymore, at all. Deal.

Red is now the home of the Ritual ability, from cards like Seething Song to Braids of Fire to Skirk Prospector. So, that being said, how do you build a Dark Ritual-like card in a black flavour? I've seen one or two red Rituals float around on here (one being R, Instant, Add RRR to your mana pool. ~ deals 3 damage to you.) so I figure if it's going to fit along that lines, perhaps a similar idea with a life loss. Barring that, what about sacrificing a permanent? So..

I think the first post in this thread is pretty clear. How can we make a Black Ritual? I suggested a creature being there as a requirement as this both balances the card and fits the flavour. Clearly we need to avoid making this card into Culling the Weak.

[parallax]

Clearly we need to avoid making this card into Culling the Weak.

Fixed.

I see no reason to make a black Ritual. It doesn't fit the color pie. Black already has Rituals in Extended, Legacy and Vintage. If someone finds an interesting drawback that could go on a black Ritual-like card, let them post a new card.

Culling the Weak already exists and sacrificing a creature is probably the best way to make a Ritual feel black these days.

[dandan]

Ritual Redux

Instant
Add {B}{B} to your mana pool if you have at least one creature in your graveyard.
Everybody needs some body....

Black enough for you?

[Matt]

So instead of making Culling the Weak, you made Songs of the Damned?

[dandan]

Ritual Redux

Instant
When you play ~this~ you may sacrifice a creature.
Add {B}{B} to your mana pool if you have at least one creature in your graveyard.
Everybody needs some body....

Now with added Blackness. The cards still sucks but I dare you to deny its rightful place in the colour pie.

P.S. Note that the colour pie just got some splattered, with Blue getting pinging and direct damage in Timeshifted

[parallax]

Timeshifted cards are an exception and do not count. They have no bearing on the current color pie. Time Spiral as a whole has some old color wheel philosophies built in. That's part of the set's theme. It does not mean we can abuse the color wheel ourselves.

Dandan, your card is still just Culling the Weak.

[dandan]

It is still just Culling the Weak like Brainstorm is still just a weaker version of Ancestral Recall. You are correct in that it will often just be that, but it has far more flexibility. It is a normal Dark Ritual if you already have a creature in your graveyard plus gives you an additional sacrifice outlet which might be useful if you run stuff like Rector or silly Type II dragons.

In any case, the aim of the thread was to make a Black Ritual. I defy you to deny the blackness of this card. Sure it is similar to other cards, sure it is generally weak but neither reason is sufficiently strong to scrap this card.

(I am just about to open a thread with an idea so Dandan and so weak that it may well be too poor a card to survive!)

[Anusien]

Can we get a current wording post?

[GerryMander]

...wait a minute!

I thought that black don't get rituals anymore!

[dandan]

It is not my thread so I won't do a current wording post, although I think my latest version is the closest thing we have to a Black Ritual that doesn't offend the Defenders of the Holy Colour Pie as defined by WotC (and recently completely ignored by the aforementioned Seattle Wizards).

Show me the rule that says Black doesn't get Rituals. Red gets fast mana, sure. Black gets power from death and the dead. I see no problem here.

[GerryMander]

The rule that states that Black cannot have Dark Rituals can be found here:  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb109

I think that the arguement of whether or not black can have a ritual can be over now, because Randy Buehler states himself that black should not have access to it.

[dandan]

Randy did not stay that Black should not have Ritual Redux.

In any case, Wizards just dumped on the colour pie in Time Spiral. Is Black more deserving of Ritual Redux than Blue is of direct damage?

[parallax]

Randy did not stay that Black should not have Ritual Redux.

In any case, Wizards just dumped on the colour pie in Time Spiral. Is Black more deserving of Ritual Redux than Blue is of direct damage?

Time Spiral's redefinition of the color wheel applies to that set only. If you submitted any blue direct damage or Prodigal Sorcerer effects I would reject them as well. Unless you're designing for a specific set with a specific theme about using the old color pie, you cannot try to pass off color wheel violations as Wizard's standard practice. Time Spiral is an exception. It is not the rule.