4CB Tournament #1 Results and Discussion/4CB Tournament #2 Opening

[combo_dude]

I'd like to congratulate Naphtali as the winner of 4CB Tournament #1!
The first tournament has now been and gone, so it was anyone's guess what would take it down - the lack of disruption in any form apart from the Karakas/Leyline combination meant that the Blood Moon deck powered by two Loti did very well for itself! Well done!

Banned List:
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
The Rack
Trinisphere
Channel
Form of the Dragon
Abandon Hope
Addle
Brain Pry
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Meddling Mage
Energy Field
Foil
Force of Will
Show and Tell

Decks:
1.   combo_dude    -    The Engine Room    -    Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai,   Sol Ring,   Dust Bowl,   Crucible of Worlds
2.   Cross    -    (no name)    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Sun Droplet,   Ensnaring Bridge,   Barbed Wire
3.   ReAnimator    -    Leveler and Friends!    -    Black Lotus,   Leonin Squire,   Leonin Squire,   Leveler
4.   Naphtali    -    (no name)    -    Black Lotus,   Black Lotus,   Preacher,   Blood Moon
5.   Hi-Val    -    Burnfor1.dec    -    Black Lotus,   Black Lotus,   Phantom Warrior,   Island Sanctuary
6.   Franz Ferdinand    -    5 Beasts and a Baby    -    Black Lotus,   Black Lotus,   Leonin Squire,   Hunting Pack
7.   Rock Lee    -    There can only be one    -    Karakas,   Eiganjo Castle,   Isamaru, Hound of Konda,   Leyline of Singularity
8.   Harlequin    -    Flippin' the bird    -    Black Lotus,   Lion's Eye Diamond,   Erayo, Soratami Ascendant,   Roar of the Wurm
9.   Norm4eva    -    1.21 jigajiga.dec    -    Lion's Eye Diamond,   Lion's Eye Diamond,   Arrogant Wurm,   Arrogant Wurm
10.   Godder    -    The Starke Reality    -    Karakas,   Mercadian Bazaar,   Starke of Rath,   Leyline of Singularity
11.   scutakicker    -    Rats!    -    Karakas,   Black Lotus,   Earsplitting Rats,   Leyline of Singularity
12.   Parallax    -    Jinxed!    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Jinxed Choker,   Jinxed Choker,   Glacial Chasm
13.   Virtual    -    Lock, Shop and 2 Smoking Barrels    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Jinxed Choker,   Chalice of the Void,   Glacial Chasm
14.   Illisius    -    Vial Ninjas    -    Karakas,   Aether Vial,   Rishadan Brigand,   Leyline of Singularity
15.   Matt    -    Nosebleed    -    Black Lotus,   Mountain,   Hypnotic Specter,   Chaos Charm
16.   BweeBwee    -    Amusing and Amazing    -    Black Lotus,   Sheltered Valley,   Lavaborn Muse,   Maze of Ith

Results:

      1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   1   2   3   4   5   6 Total Position
1|   X   6   0   0   0   0   0   2   0   6   2   6   3   0   3   0   28   (13)
2|   0   X   6   1   6   6   6   1   6   0   2   0   6   0   2   0   42   (7)
3|   6   0   X   0   0   0   0   3   6   0   0   3   3   0   6   0   27   (14)
4|   6   4   6   X   2   0   6   3   4   6   3   6   6   2   6   6   66   (1)
5|   6   0   6   2   X   6   2   4   6   2   4   0   0   0   0   0   38   (11)
6|   6   0   6   6   0   X   0   3   6   0   0   3   3   0   3   6   42   (7)
7|   6   0   6   0   2   6   X   4   6   0   6   0   0   3   6   2   47   (5)
8|   2   4   3   3   1   3   1   X   4   2   1   3   3   1   6   1   38   (11)
9|   6   0   0   1   0   0   0   1   X   0   0   0   3   0   6   0   17   (16)
0|   0   6   6   0   2   6   2   2   6   X   2   0   0   3   2   2   39   (10)
1|   2   2   6   3   1   6   0   4   6   2   X   0   0   3   4   2   41   (9)
2|   0   6   3   0   6   3   6   3   6   6   6   X   2   6   3   6   62   (2)
3|   3   0   3   0   6   3   6   3   3   6   6   2   X   6   3   6   56   (4)
4|   6   6   6   2   6   6   3   4   6   3   3   0   0   X   1   6   58   (3)
5|   3   2   0   0   6   3   0   0   0   2   1   3   3   4   X   0   27   (14)
6|   6   6   6   0   6   0   2   4   6   2   2   0   0   0   6   X   46   (6)

Well, I didn't really know what to expect, so seeing lots of Lotus decks doesn't really surprise me - being able to play two of them and have options is definitely powerful, especially when there's so little disruption around. My own choice was a deck I came up with ages ago, and it's usually a solid performer - however, I came up with it before Leyline came out, and one rather irritating facet of Leyline is that even after Dust Bowl-ing Karakas I can't build up a token army the way I can against any other deck, as they're all Legendary! It was a shame that Matt's deck didn't do better - the "random effects go in your opponent's favour" really hurts with Specter. Hopefully there'll be a move towards disruption-based decks next week given how well the disruptive decks did this week (Preacher, Karakas, and Glacial Chasm took up almost the entire top half!), but let's wait and see! A great first turnout!

For next week: Same Again!

Rules:

Basic Rules

- Your deck is composed of 4 cards, all of which start in your hand.
- Your deck has no sideboard.
- You don't lose as a result of not being able to draw a card.
- You can see your opponent's hand, so you can always make the best possible play.
- Your random effects always go in your opponent's favor.
- All other rules of Magic remain unchanged, unless otherwise stated.

Tournament Rules

- All matches are played out by the moderator (participants only submit the decks).
- Tournaments are run in round-robin fashion.
- Each matchup consists of 2 games, with each deck going first once.
- Participants earn 3 points if their deck wins a game, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss; thus, over the course of a match, you can earn 6, 4, 3, 2, 1, or 0 points.

Deck-Building Rules

- You may not submit a deck that can win before the end of your opponent's first turn.
- You may not submit a deck that can force an opponent to discard more than 1 card in one turn.
- You may not submit a deck that can generate infinite (or an arbitrarily large amount of) mana on the first turn.
- Your deck may not include Unglued or Unhinged cards, ante cards, Garfield event cards (such as Splendid Genesis or Proposal), or 1996 World Champion.
- You may not include a card that appears on the 4CB Banned List.

Banned List:
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
The Rack
Trinisphere
Channel
Form of the Dragon
Abandon Hope
Addle
Brain Pry
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Meddling Mage
Energy Field
Foil
Force of Will
Show and Tell

(This is subject to change, as I haven't looked hard enough at Coldsnap and Ravnica block for 4CB purposes.)

Preferred Submission Format: (Use [] instead of <>)

Subject: 4CB #??
YourName
DeckName
Card1
Card2
Card3
Card4

The date for closing entries will be the 22nd September - this one runs for a bit over two weeks, then it'll be fortnightly as usual.

Please post any corrections or discussion, though bear in mind I'm away for the next week and may not be online for 10 days or so, so don't expect corrections to be edited into this post any time soon. Oh, and no Time Spiral for this tournament.

Thanks,
Adam

[Harlequin]

8|   2   4   3   3   1   3   1   X   4   2   1   3   3   1   6   1   38   (11)


Woot!  didn't loose a single match!  Turn 1 Erayo was apparently unbeatable on the Play!

However... It was only so good.

[parallax]

3 v 12: I think I race Leveler and Friends even playing second. (0-6)
1st turn: Drop Leveler. I play Shop Choker. (20-20)
2nd turn: He takes 1 from Choker, attacks me for 14. I take two from Choker, drop Choker + Chasm. (19-4)
3rd turn: He takes 1+3 from Choker. I take 2 from Chasm. (15-2)
4th turn: He takes 3+5 from Choker. I stack the Chasm trigger, prevent the Choker damage, and let Chasm go. (7-2)
5th turn: He dies to 5+7 damage from Choker.

1 v 8: The Engine Room can't beat Erayo on the play or draw. (0-6)
2 v 11: Discard Sun Droplet. Drop Ensnaring Bridge and Barbed Wire. (6-0)
2 v 13: I think Choker races Sun Droplet. (0-6)
3 v 4: Preacher steals Leonin Squire. Trading Squires lets Preacher win, but if the Preachered Squire attacks, Leveler races. (2-2)
3 v 12: As above. (0-6)
4 v 8: Erayo deck plays Lotus, LED, waits for the Preacher to come down and plays Erayo, Wurm, without flipping. Preacher steals Erayo, but can't race the Wurm. Big staring contest. (2-2)
4 v 13: Chalice for 0 on the play. (3-3)
4 v 14: As Illisius explains below. (0-6)
4 v 15: Chaos Charm on the Preacher. (0-6)
5 v 11: Karakas for the draw. (2-2)
7 v 10: Karakas kill each other. Isamaru and Starke stare. (2-2)
7 v 11: Rats! can draw on the play because Isamaru can't abuse Karakas. It's a fair fight between Rats and Isamaru. Stare. (4-1)
7 v 14: Isamaru races Brigand even on the draw. (6-0)
8 v 9: On the draw, Harlequin can slow-roll the Erayo and attack in the air for the win. (6-0)
8 v 10: On the draw, Karakas prevents Erayo from flipping. Starke comes down and beats face. (1-4)
8 v 13: On the draw, Chalice for 0 triggers Erayo and Choker races. (0-6)
9 v 13: It takes twelve damage to race one Choker. (0-6)
9 v 16: Maze of Ith untaps the Wurm, Muse can't attack back. Wurm races Muse on the play, loses on the draw. (3-3)
10 v 11: Starke, on the play, drops Karakas. Rats can't be played. (4-1)
10 v 15: Starke wins on the play with Karakas on Hippie. (4-1)
11 v 15: Nothing can stop the power of Chaos Charm! (2-2)
14 v 15: Karakas allows for a draw playing first or second. (2-2)


As always, I could be, and probably am, wrong on most of these. Explanations would be appreciated. 4CB has much more complicated decks than 3CB. I really like it, though.

[Illissius]

Hah. The forums software replaced my deck name . It was Vial Pi-rates.

The usual corrections: (I'm short on time, so only looking at the ones I didn't 6-0)

14 vs 4:
If 4 drops everything, when Vial gets to five counters and summons a ninja, 4 can either:
- sac Preacher and die to ninjas
- sac Moon and steal Brigand, after which Karakas bounces either Preacher (get Brigand back) or Brigand (replay with Vial), and 14 wins.
- use Preacher in response to Brigand's CIP, then sac Preacher. I believe Preacher dying counts as it becoming untapped, so 14 gets the Brigand back, and wins.
If 4 drops two Lotus and Preacher but not Moon, Karakas bounces Preacher, then 14 wins.
If 4 drops two Lotus and Moon but not Preacher, ninjas beat for win.
Result: I think this should be 6-0 for 14.

14 vs 15:
If 15 goes first and starts with a hasty Hippie, 14 discards Vial or Brigand, then bounces the Specter, for a draw.
If 14 goes first or 15 does nothing on its first turn, 14 can either play Vial, or keep Karakas untapped. In the first case, 15 responds with a hasty Hippie which discards Brigand, after which Karakas bounces the Specter, causing a draw. In the second case, if 15 plays the Specter, it will be immediately bounced, and 15 will lose, so it's a stalemate, again causing a draw.
Result: I think this should be 2-2.

I haven't looked at the ones involving Jinxed Choker, because they make my brain hurt. Maybe later.


I like Harlequin's deck, #8. I kept trying to abuse Erayo and LED somehow, but never thought to put them together in this way.

Edit: Forums software strikes again! :lol:

[parallax]

Really, the Karakas mirrors are the ones that mess my brain up.

I'm going to continue to add my suggested changes in my first post, for ease of reading. I'll modify them as appropriate when they are addressed. Is that OK?

[Harlequin]

4 v 8: Erayo deck plays Lotus, LED, waits for the Preacher to come down and plays Erayo, Wurm, without flipping. Preacher steals Erayo, but can't race the Wurm. Big staring contest. (2-2)

The other way to draw that match is to get into a "you play your cards first" stareing match.  I play Lotus Petal pass..
They can wait for me to play Erayo, If they wait for me to play Erayo, Wurm  on turn 2.  Then they can flip Erayo by playing thier hand and that would technically result in thier win.  So ultimately, I think after I play Lotus LED, then niether player would choose to play anything because both players would want the other player to play thier hand first.... If that makes any sense.  Ether way 4 v 8 should be 2-2 I think.

[parallax]

I want to make sure I have this interaction correct:

The last turn of a Choker-Chasm game, the Choker player can stack the cumulative upkeep first, then the Choker damage, preventing the damage and then choose not to pay the cumulative upkeep. This buys them a whole turn. Is this correct?

According to my math, it takes twelve damage before the Chasm comes down to race one Choker, and sixteen to race two. Can anyone confirm?

[Cross]

2 v 11: Discard Sun Droplet. Drop Ensnaring Bridge and Barbed Wire. (6-0)

I think parallax is correct.

[virtual]

I have a few corrections to submit for my pairing (I'm #13)

13v2:  Should be 6/0 not 0/6
2 First:      2   15
Droplet      19   20
Choker      20   20   
Barbed Wire   20   20
-2 -1      20   17
-3 -1 +1      17   17
-4 -1      18   12
-5 -1 +1      13   12
-6 -1 (chasm)   14   5
-7 -1 +1      7   5
-8 -1 ( -> -2)   8   3
-9 -1 +1      -1   3

2 First:      2   15
Droplet      19   20
Choker      20   20
-1 +1      20   20
-2      20   18
-3 +1      18   18
-4      19   14      
-5 +1      15   14
-6 (chasm)      15   8
-7 +1      9   8
-8 (-> -2)      10   6
-9 +1      2   6
-10 (->-4)      3   2
-11 +1      -7   2   

I don't see how I get 0 points here... even if he drops the barbed wire later, it doesn't help, and pulling parallax's trick (Active/inactive) on the stack, I can get away with a free turn as well which I'm not even using. 

13v4 3/3 instead of 0/6
Going first, I win (chalice at 0).
Him going first, he wins (Blood Moon)

13v8 6/0 instead of 3/3
Going first, I win (chalice at 0).

He Must flip erayo if he's going to get his attack out.  I will let chalice be coutnered, then play idol.  Using parallax's trick I win the race.

            Him   Me
Dude            20   20
Chalice,choker         20   20
Attack            19   14
Chasm            19   12
-3            16   12
-4 (-> -2)         16   10
-5            11   10
-6 (-> -4)         11   6
-7            4   6
-8 (-> -0 Parallax trick)   4   6
-9            -5   6

13v9 should be 6/0 instead of 3/3
If I go first I win (chalice at 0)

If he goes first, he drops 8 power of guys.
            Him   Me
Dudes            20   20
Choker            20   20
Attack,-1         19   12
Chasm,-2         19   10
-3            16   10
-4 (-> -2)         16   8
-5            11   8
-6 (-> -4)         11   4
-7            4   4
-8 (-> -0 Parallax trick)   4   4
-9            -5   4


Which should give me 15 more points if I'm not mistaken. 

-Virtual

Edit:
Wow, I just went back and saw that parallax caught all of mine already.  Unbelievable & awesome.

[parallax]

Yeah, I went back and double-checked all of them. It's so easy to miss something, write the result down wrong, etc. I like to go through the results so I can see why the deck that won won and what kind of effects are good against the field. Also, I'm practicing in case I ever want to run one of these.

These are only valid if everything I indicated above is correct. Also, they're obviously not Official, if there is such a thing here. combo_dude is still the judge, and has the final say on this.

Updated standings:
  |   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Total Position
 1|   X   6   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   6   2   6   3   0   3   0   26     14
 2|   0   X   6   1   6   6   6   1   6   0   6   0   0   0   2   0   40      8
 3|   6   0   X   2   0   0   0   3   6   0   0   0   3   0   6   0   26     14
 4|   6   4   2   X   2   0   6   2   4   6   3   6   3   0   0   6   50      4
 5|   6   0   6   2   X   6   2   4   6   2   2   0   0   0   0   0   36     12
 6|   6   0   6   6   0   X   0   3   6   0   0   3   3   0   3   6   42      7
 7|   6   0   6   0   2   6   X   4   6   2   4   0   0   6   6   2   50      4
 8|   6   4   3   2   1   3   1   X   6   1   1   3   0   1   6   1   39     10
 9|   6   0   0   1   0   0   0   0   X   0   0   0   0   0   6   3   16     16
10|   0   6   6   0   2   6   2   4   6   X   4   0   0   3   4   2   45      6
11|   2   0   6   3   2   6   1   4   6   1   X   0   0   3   2   2   38      9
12|   0   6   6   0   6   3   6   3   6   6   6   X   2   6   3   6   65      2
13|   3   6   3   3   6   3   6   6   6   6   6   2   X   6   3   6   71      1
14|   6   6   6   6   6   6   0   4   6   3   3   0   0   X   2   6   60      3
15|   3   2   0   6   6   3   0   0   0   1   2   3   3   2   X   2   33     13
16|   6   6   6   0   6   0   2   4   3   2   2   0   0   0   2   X   39     10

[Matt]

YES I DIDN'T GET LAST PLACE

I thought I was so clever, finding a way to run discard in 4cB. Then I had to decide between Chaos Charm (burn) or Reckless Charge (goldfish) for my haste-enabler.

Oh well!

[parallax]

YES I DIDN'T GET LAST PLACE

I thought I was so clever, finding a way to run discard in 4cB. Then I had to decide between Chaos Charm (burn) or Reckless Charge (goldfish) for my haste-enabler.

Oh well!

You heard it here first, folks!

Chaos Charm is officially better than Reckless Charge for its ability to kill Preacher and Earsplitting Rats.

I haven't looked at the ones involving Jinxed Choker, because they make my brain hurt. Maybe later.

I said earlier that the Karakas mirrors were hard on the brain, but the Choker mirror requires Shannon alpha-beta pruning to determine. I'm pretty sure that unless there are mitigating factors (the fourth card), Whoever lays a Choker first loses when the other player lays their Choker the next turn. The numbers just come out to the second person's advantage. A second Choker from the first player doesn't change this. The best option is just to hold, leading to 2-2 draws.

[Naphtali]

I agree with all of the edits relating to my deck, don't have time to check the whole round today.

[ZoneSeek]

Deck submitted!

Now you can all kick my butt using cards I don't know from the newer sets! Rawr!

[Hi-Val]

Deck submitted!

Now you can all kick my butt using cards I don't know from the newer sets! Rawr!

HOLY SHIT

You're still alive!

YAY!

[ZoneSeek]

Very much alive and very much out of magic.  I check up on TMD here and there, mostly 3CB because its my baby. 

Gimme an IM at "Bail Nobra" or an email at jtorndorff at gmail.com some time bro!

[combo_dude]

Yeah, I went back and double-checked all of them. It's so easy to miss something, write the result down wrong, etc. I like to go through the results so I can see why the deck that won won and what kind of effects are good against the field. Also, I'm practicing in case I ever want to run one of these.

These are only valid if everything I indicated above is correct. Also, they're obviously not Official, if there is such a thing here. combo_dude is still the judge, and has the final say on this.

Updated standings:
  |   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Total Position
 1|   X   6   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   6   2   6   3   0   3   0   26     14
 2|   0   X   6   1   6   6   6   1   6   0   6   0   0   0   2   0   40      8
 3|   6   0   X   2   0   0   0   3   6   0   0   0   3   0   6   0   26     14
 4|   6   4   2   X   2   0   6   2   4   6   3   6   3   0   0   6   50      4
 5|   6   0   6   2   X   6   2   4   6   2   2   0   0   0   0   0   36     12
 6|   6   0   6   6   0   X   0   3   6   0   0   3   3   0   3   6   42      7
 7|   6   0   6   0   2   6   X   4   6   2   4   0   0   6   6   2   50      4
 8|   6   4   3   2   1   3   1   X   6   1   1   3   0   1   6   1   39     10
 9|   6   0   0   1   0   0   0   0   X   0   0   0   0   0   6   3   16     16
10|   0   6   6   0   2   6   2   4   6   X   4   0   0   3   4   2   45      6
11|   2   0   6   3   2   6   1   4   6   1   X   0   0   3   2   2   38      9
12|   0   6   6   0   6   3   6   3   6   6   6   X   2   6   3   6   65      2
13|   3   6   3   3   6   3   6   6   6   6   6   2   X   6   3   6   71      1
14|   6   6   6   6   6   6   0   4   6   3   3   0   0   X   1   6   59      3
15|   3   2   0   6   6   3   0   0   0   1   2   3   3   4   X   2   35     13
16|   6   6   6   0   6   0   2   4   3   2   2   0   0   0   2   X   39     10

No, that looks good - I didn't realise Parallax's trick worked, so I thought that 6 damage was enough to manage it. Sorry for the large number of errors, it'll improve!

This, of course, makes Choker decks fairly ridiculous in the circumstances, so if it dominates another couple of tournaments something will have to go - agreed?

More decks would be good, not that many at the moment! Sorry I haven't been active for a while, there just really hasn't been much time. I'll try and be better organised for this lot in the future.

Adam

PS in the next tournament, Time Spiral will be legal, but if I get sent a ridiculous deck, don't expect it to survive even one tournament!

[parallax]

I was surprised the Choker deck wasn't banned from the outset. That's why I submitted it for the tournament. I recommend a ban on Glacial Chasm.

[Franz Ferdinand]

I already have a deck that might get banned from the outset for next round (with TS, of course)...hopefully, combo_dude will post the round soon.

TS is a godsend for XCB. Suspend is so powerful.