Bomberman vs Bob-berman

[Pathian]

I've been recently thinking about building a combo deck, and I found Bomberman seems like a lot of fun to play while being competitive at the same time. I'm trying to keep it down to 10 proxies, however, and the more recent bomberman lists are somewhat difficult to play on my budget at 10 proxy (buying dual lands is no problem, buying mana drains and up is). So I was perusing some decklists and found a list for Bob-berman (or Bob Bomberman on SCG). The original list was by Guallaume Laroche and was played at Rochester, but I changed a card or two.

//Artifacts
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Dimir Cutpurse
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth

//Sorceries
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

//Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

That's the maindeck I'm working with at the moment. the original list had 1 Mox Emerald and 1 Phyrexian Furnace, but I decided to replace the Mox with a Sol Ring as it seemed just as explosive as an off color mox and Phyrexian Furnace with Tormod's Crypt since it's a bit better in the late game and doesn't require a mana commitment (tell me I'm wrong if I am, that was just my feeling).

I just had a few questions I wanted to pose to help me get a better feel for this deck as there are fewer resources about this deck than a traditional u/w bomberman build. Any help from people with experience with either build would be very welcome

1.) The typical bomberman build runs 11 counters, including 4 Mana Drains, While Bob-berman uses only 4 FoW. Does Bob-berman lack a significant amount of explosiveness due to the lack of Drain mana? and if so, is there enough there to make up for it?

2.) My initial understanding of Bomberman is that it is a ControlDisrupt/Combo/Beatdown deck, more or less in that order. Due to the lack of a high volume of counters, does the primary game plan for Bob-berman change to a more fish-style aproach? ie Beatdown/ControlDisrupt/Combo?  This seemed logical since comboing out in bomberman involved leaving yourself with a 7 counterspell hand, so the end "lock" in this case seems less powerful.

3.) Do you think that this deck, when well played, can be competitive with other high calibur decks?

Thank you all for your help.

EDIT: Reformatted list to make it more readable

[Damos]

I was wondering if maybe this list need the lone Lions eye diamond in it too. This is another lotus for this deck. And also maybe the lone Pyrite spellbomb.

This mayb let the deck combo out a little faster. As in this case all you need is a salvager and either a Lotuc or LED and the pyrite spellbomb to win then and there. This may help make up for the lack of control elements in the deck. The nice thing about this too is that a trinket mage can tutor up any of the arfitact's needed for the combo.

Just a few ideas for you to think about.

[Methuselahn]

To answer your first two questions at once, I'd say the Bomberman or Bobberman or whatever (it's very, very similar) decks are very draw dependent and the role you play is very situational to the matchup, board position, and opening hand that you draw.  So, for me, it's hard to say something like "go more combo" or "go more beatdown." 

Having tested and played Bomberman with and without black spells, I might be inclined to make the following changes for you to test out:

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Top

- cutpurses
- therapy?
- wastelands for something.  wastes look way out of place here.

[Purple Hat]

first, can you edit the initial post to make the list more readable?  you've got everything all mixed together and it's a bit tough to see what's in there.

Second, I think you want to be playing a full set of duresses and that the wastes are out of place here.  I'd add another fetch for one of the wastes and drop a therapy for duress.  I'm not sure that you're gonna need the therapies actually, especially if you cut the cutpurses as the only creature you really want to be saccing to therapy is trinketmage, but with only 11 creatures killing your own really cuts down on your ability to go aggro.

[Metman]

In my testing I've found that screwing up your mana base to play black spells is a mistake.  You can play Meddling Mage and stick with UW as well as add beatdown and disruption.  I personally don't like the Pyrite Spellbomb.  It's dead unless you are going off, and if you are comboing out the Aether Spellbomb will still draw your deck to play your creatures and Time Walk for the win.  It's also useful before you combo off unlike the Pyrite.  I also see infinite reasons to run Tinker and DSC.  You run a ton of artifacts, some want to be in the grave, and it just wins games sometimes.

[Pathian]

I reformmated the list for clarity.

I am considering changing the ratio of duress to therapy to 4/2 as I agree that this deck really shouldn't like saccing creatures. I really like the idea of a Counterbalance/Top engine since Trinks can fetch out a single top without issue. I'm not really sold on LED in this deck since trinks can fetch the Black Lotus when I need it. I'm not entirely sold on cutting the Wastelands, Cutpurses and Cabal Therapies entirely though. The strength of bomberman always (to me) seemed to be its high counterspell density. This build is already down -4 Mana Drain and -3 Mana Leak in terms of disruption cards, it seems counterintuitive to me that I would want to cut more control/disruption. I can see cutting 2 Cutpurse and 2 Therapy (after shifting duress up to 4) in favor of 3 Counterbalance and 1 Top, the only problem I can see with that is that 2 Cutpurse and 2 Therapy  both have a fairly high marginal value while Counterbalance 2 and 3 have a low marginal value. However, I was wondering why the Wastelands seem so out of place to everyone, I would have thought that disruption/mana denial would be a higher priority as the deck is down 7 counters. Thanks again for all the input so for though, I really appreciate it

[Purple Hat]

you're not really down 7 counters because duress fills the role of 4 counters.  the problem with wasteland is that you're playing a 3 color base dropping lands that don't produce colored mana hurts your development too much given that mana denial isn't one of your goals here and wastes are becomming less and less useful in the meta as a whole.

hale

[Pathian]

Hey all, so I was testing the list I posted here against a friend's MD Gifts last night. These were the observations from that matchup.

-Bob must resolve early for me to have an advantage in this match
-The hand disruption is critical, but I found myself using it mostly to remove countermagic
-In many opening hands, I found myself wishing Cabal Therapy was a Duress, so I am definitely scaling back Therapy to 2 and Duress up to 4
-Wasteland never really mattered, and I occasionally was mana screwed off color, those are definitely getting cut for some fetch or additional basics
-My proxy situation changed, so I am likely going to turn Sol Ring back into the last off color mox since it nets the same amount of mana the turn its played and has greater synergy with engineered explosives on a non-combo turn
-Tormod's Crypt seemed to be the right decision over Phyrexian furnace, a huge late game play for me was to Trink for it when half his library was in his graveyard (including burning wish, tinker, recoup, and yawgwill just went there the turn before) leading to a scoop
-Dimir Cutpurse is a beast even after just 1 swing, it's really making me not want to cut him, though I'm still going to try

-2 Therapy
-2 Cutpurse

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

When I find the counterbalances. Both the local shops are out.

[MaKu]

(yay first post  :lol:)

I play bomberman with 3 salvager's and 4 trinket mage, sometimes this is even to much .
after you have you salvager-lotus-aether spellbomb you can pick up your deck destroy all creatures your enemy controlls (with engineerd explosive) or return them to their hand (ith the aether spellbomb).

pyrite spellbomb looks nice but its not needed, you can return all creatures and destroy almost all permanents so there is no need for the pyrite ( you try to cast a spell with your opponent having 7 counter's on hand )

lion eye diamond also not needed cuz if your black lotus is countered its in your graveyard (and you can return it with salvager) only thing that can really stop you is that your black lotus is removed. and thats almost impossible'(you got 11 counter's in your deck)

[Jank Golem]

I think running Cutpurse steers this deck too far towards Fish. One of the reasons Fish is so effective is because you have Rod/Chalice. You can't run Rod/Chalice in Bomberman, so if run other Fish components in it you really are not harnessing the full power of the deck. In my opinion a more control oriented deck with Mana Leak or Mana Drain is more competative then more Fishy Bomberman builds because of the reasons stated above. I think a black splash for Confidant has merit, you just can't go to far into black without weaking your mana base.

[SMac]

You're looking at these two decks in the wrong way.

Bomberman and BoBerman are two completely different decks, Bomberman is a control deck plain and simple, it has a combo finish and has a possibility of creature beatdown.

BoBerman is a "fish" or aggro control deck at heart, it plays out like SS, with Duress Cutpurse and Erayo for disruption. Erayo makes a hard-lock with Cutpurse and is ridiculously easy to flip with trinkets who are insane toolbox creatures and your combo-enabler. The combo is an alternate kill you almost allways win by beatz, contrary to Bomberman.

I've cut Therapys completely since playing the deck both days at SCG Boston (2nd and 10th) Duress is obviously better but the cabals just never really impressed me and I found myself siding them out all the time so I swapped Erayos for them which have been nuts ever since.

Cutting Dimir Cutpurses or Wastelands is blashphemy, Cutpurse is boarded out in creatures matchups but great in the rest. And wasteland is the additional disruption that gives you a better match against so many decks, 2 or 3 wastes with 1 strip isnt such a strain on the manabase, although I agree that the deck has a slightly shaky manabase, like most 3color fish decks.

Chalices are good in the board, but you often board in only 1 since trinket can fetch it so 4 in the sideboard isnt a necessity, I was expecting much gifts/combo so I packed 4.

[Largent]

hey simon, been playing the deck since day one of boston now, the changes ive made (and have been very happy with) are:

-2 cabal therapy +2 Misdirection

as you said cabal therapy isnt all that exciting, i havent tried using erayo yet but the misdirections I added have been spectacular so far, snagging a recall is so hot for this deck not to mention FoW 5+6

-1 engineered explosives +1 vampiric tutor
i have never been excited about EE and the vamp allows you to find your combo earlier or help dig out of a tight spot

-1 tundra +1 swamp

as there are only 3 white cards in the deck i feel 3 tundras is too many, in playing the deck ive found that occasionally you will get screwed out of black mana either by drawing too many tundras and no fetches or via wasteland


I was also wondering how you side for the meandeck gifts matchup, the match doesnt seem terrible pre board but im having trouble switching cards for this one.

[Pathian]

I've noticed some people advocating the inclusion of 4x Merch Scrolls in some versions of the deck. any thoughts? It seems that it would tighten up the combo matchup by allowing more flexible access to FoWs and Ancestral.

[MaKu]

what do you want to cut for the merchant scroll? maybe 1 brainstorm and 1 mana leak and then 2 merchant scroll's

bomberman is also winning with beatdown, you don't use pyrite spellbomb anymore.

[SMac]

-1 engineered explosives +1 vampiric tutor
i have never been excited about EE and the vamp allows you to find your combo earlier or help dig out of a tight spot

The EE is very useful to get rid of Chalice @ 0 and go off (5 colorless sources in deck), sometimes against multi-mox hands or aggro matchups its a good fetchable target for trinket, I like having it maindeck, but it probably isnt necessary.

Vamp is OK, I played it in my first versions of the deck, but I never really found the need for more than 1 tutor outside of the Trinket Mages.

3 Tundras: only the 2-3 salvagers maindeck except many W cards post-board (Kamis, Swords Kataki, etc.) -1 Tundra +1 Swamp could be a good idea in some metas though.

I'd be surprised that merchant scroll is any good in Bomberman.

[Phele]

I've noticed that there is some kind of blind talk about different builds. Maybe it could help to post some lists that were pretty successful in the recent past.

This was the deck Simon McRae was coming in second in Boston:

2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dimir Cutpurse
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will

Sorceries
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kami Of Ancient Law
2 Ronom Unicorn
2 Darkblast
3 Kataki, War's Wage

This was another UWB build coming in 11th in the recent eight lotus tournament in Spain

Aurelio Crespo

4 Force of Will
4 Trinket Mage
4 Duress
4 Dark Confidant
3 Brainstorm
3 Dimir Cutpurse
2 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
2 Aether Spellbomb
2 Spell Snare
2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard:

1 Enegry Flux
2 Old Man of the Sea
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Serenity
2 Katany, War´s Wage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa´s Jitte

This list is more like the traditionale Build with an extra control element in form of Counterbalance coming in third at the same tournament:

Alejandro Escribano

Maindeck:

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Trinket Mage
3 Brainstorm
2 Counterbalance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wipe Away
3 Auriok Salvagers
1 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:

1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Exalted Angel
2 Abeyance
2 Rule of Law
2 Disenchant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Kami of the Ancient Law
1 Seal of Cleansing

And this is the list JR Goldman has good success recently, also pretty control-orientated but with more flexibliity thanks to Merchant Scroll:

JR Goldman

4 Trinket Mage
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
1 TIme Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Black Lotus
3 Aether Spellbomb
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:

4 Disrupt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Energy Flux
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Threads  of Disloyalty
1 Disenchant
1 SEal of Cleansing

So the field is open, to discuss the ups and downs of all the builds.

Main questions to discuss when comparing Bob-Bomberman and Bomberman:

1. Is the much shakier manabase worth the black splash. Or the other way around: Is Confidant so much better of a draw engine than Thirst for Knowledge. And ist Duress so great as a substitute for Merchant Scroll or Mana Leak.

2. Do the winning rode change drastically due to the modifications: Is Bob-Bomberman winning much more often with creature beatdown what Bomberman already does?

3. Is there any hybrid form possible with any advantages, lets say a smaller black splash just for the tutors and Duress in the board. But without Bobs and Wastelands.

4. What are the best sideboard(maindeck)(-weapons against Fish, Staxx and Gifts?

5. Has Trinket Mage been one of the most underrated cards in Vintage for a very long time (except in Canada)?

Cards to discuss are: Confidant (pretty obvious), Thirst for Knowledge, Strip Mine and Wasteland, Mana Leak, Merchant Scroll, Erayo, Counterbalance, Cunning Wish, the tool box. The rest seem to me pretty mandatory, just the sheer number of lets say the Salvagers themselves are in question.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Never mind.  I was going to post JR's list as well.  He's been playing and having success with that one for a while now as Scrolling for Ancestral is just as strong as it is in Gifts.  Plus, it gives him quick links to singletons and some sideboard cards.  JR's list, played by Angel Rivera, split a Sapphire (Top 2) in Sandusky last weekend.  I don't really know that much about it, but it trashed me even after I Capped him for Aether Spellbombs and Duplicanned two Salvagers.

[MaKu]

It's also more about how do you like to play.
are you more of a control player than the W/U is betther for you, are you more of a aggro type then go for B/W/U
But both builds have proven they are worth to play it in vintage.

i play this build at the moment:

it's the deck of Elias Vaisberg who became number 6 in Boston, Massachusetts, United States on 2006-09-24

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mana Leak
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Sorceries
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
5 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
2 Chalice Of The Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Meddling Mage
3 Threads Of Disloyalty
1 Brain Freeze
1 Disenchant
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Misdirection
1 Orim's Chant
1 Swords To Plowshares

i'm not always a fan of cunning wish with the wishboard but it is really nice in this deck.
instead of playing like say 2 disenchant's (what happend in old builds) you now have acces to orim's chant (great vs tendrill's)
swords to plowshares (extra to wipe out the DSC or other big nasty things) and brain freeze (extra kill never bad to have one, had to use it couple of time's after my spellbomb's got removed)

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I've been playing Cunning Wish for months now, since my Waterbury Top 16 and I haven't looked back yet.

Teferi is very good in the deck as well, I played it in Jersey and it did win me a match, also Oliver Beaurmont(sP?) from NE ran Teferi as well, he made top 8 at his event. Dropping EoT Trinket Mages is nuts on top of not having your opponent ever resolve a bomb.

I want to fit Trickbind somewhere in there but I really haven't figured it out as well as I should have yet.

A few reasons I don't like JR's list.

4x Auriok Salvagers, its a four mana SORCERY. Jizzy Crizzy I hate drawing two as it is, I usually board down to two vs. a lot of control decks.
4x Merchant Scroll, I see the strength in fetching FoW vs combo, but I feel as if it is similar if you would put Merchant Scroll in Control Slaver, and 4x Scroll in Slaver isn't right most likely. And if you find yourself fetching Wipe Away a lot, I guess I'll put one in my Cunning Wish SB, so I don't need to maindeck it.
3x Brainstorm!? The card is too good, it fixes all my mana problems which this deck can encounter.

Why Cunning Wish is the nut high right now too, lots of mirror matches are starting to stroll along. I can lay a Chalice at one cut off spellbombs and still win through Cunning Wish Brainfreeze. Now that I like.

[MaKu]

I've been playing Cunning Wish for months now, since my Waterbury Top 16 and I haven't looked back yet.

Teferi is very good in the deck as well, I played it in Jersey and it did win me a match, also Oliver Beaurmont(sP?) from NE ran Teferi as well, he made top 8 at his event. Dropping EoT Trinket Mages is nuts on top of not having your opponent ever resolve a bomb.

I want to fit Trickbind somewhere in there but I really haven't figured it out as well as I should have yet.

A few reasons I don't like JR's list.

4x Auriok Salvagers, its a four mana SORCERY. Jizzy Crizzy I hate drawing two as it is, I usually board down to two vs. a lot of control decks.
4x Merchant Scroll, I see the strength in fetching FoW vs combo, but I feel as if it is similar if you would put Merchant Scroll in Control Slaver, and 4x Scroll in Slaver isn't right most likely. And if you find yourself fetching Wipe Away a lot, I guess I'll put one in my Cunning Wish SB, so I don't need to maindeck it.
3x Brainstorm!? The card is too good, it fixes all my mana problems which this deck can encounter.

Why Cunning Wish is the nut high right now too, lots of mirror matches are starting to stroll along. I can lay a Chalice at one cut off spellbombs and still win through Cunning Wish Brainfreeze. Now that I like.

i'm really interested in your build... and how fast you normally play a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.

[Phele]

I love Cunning Wish in this deck as well. It let you run such a smooth maindeck without any extra bounce. I run a very similar build to Elias one.

I don't agree with just playing three Salvagers mandatorily so far. I do board out two of them as well in the control mirror, but that's it. Against many other matchups like Staxx or Fish I don't mind at all to see them in multiples. But I guess thats meta dependent.

I like, how you compare the addition of Merchant Scroll with adding them to CS. I always felt the same. You don't have the extra Misdirections to backup the tutored Anc but Gifts and Pitch Long have them and are so in a pretty stron position to get the three cards.

Teferi seem to be a nice toy, but not more. It's pretty expensive and while playing Trinkets and Salvagers is kinda nice its not neckbreaking as your combo and the tools fetched by trinket are Sorcerys. I would play Tinker + Titan as a bomb against control instead anytime.

What I'm always working on is the sideboard: A few questions:

Do you really like Chalice that much. I always felt, that it is pretty suboptimal as it hinders so much of your own combo and Deck. I'm still looking for another permanent solution against Long and Gifts that is more synergistic. Against Gifts and Long it's pretty obvious that the UBW build is superiour.

I noticed that you don't play any bomb against Staxx - no Engergy Flux, no Sacred Ground, no Serenity. Didn't you feel a little naked against Staxx with just Disenchants too board?

Against what Matchups do you board in Meddling Mages: I don't see the mages that much as sideboard material. It's just a bomb against Oath where I really would like to board them in. Against Long and Gifts they are so, so. I always seemed to me, that Meddling Mage should be played maindeck or not.

Edit: Another thing I said before, but never felt being discussed to an end are Strip Mine, Tolarian and Many Crypt. I've always found Strip Mine nothing but random and Tolarian and Many Crypt a great additions to make the U/W deck even more explosive, even though they are wasteable or vulnerable to Null Rod. I can't remember any similar deck like Tog, CS, Gifts that didn't play Academy or Crypt. And that was for a reason. Strip Mine on the other side is played in some of the CS or Gifts builds, but with Crucible together and Black Tutors or Gifts to find it.

Edit II: I still like Old Man better than Threads. For Grunts I do play an extra Explosives. A strong reason for Old Man in my eyes is the more predictable Mirror, where Old Man ist pretty a bomb

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I like, how you compare the addition of Merchant Scroll with adding them to CS. I always felt the same. You don't have the extra Misdirections to backup the tutored Anc but Gifts and Pitch Long have them and are so in a pretty stron position to get the three cards.

I'm also not a huge fan of fetching Ancestral Recall early game right now, the more I think about it, I am actually losing more games lately because of Misdirection on my Ancestral Recall. Another reason Merchant Scroll is a no no for me.

Teferi seem to be a nice toy, but not more. It's pretty expensive and while playing Trinkets and Salvagers is kinda nice its not neckbreaking as your combo and the tools fetched by trinket are Sorcerys. I would play Tinker + Titan as a bomb against control instead anytime.

Teferi is actually really good against Control Slaver, and the mirror. The other matches he meh agreed. It was more experimental, I would probably not play him again.

Do you really like Chalice that much. I always felt, that it is pretty suboptimal as it hinders so much of your own combo and Deck. I'm still looking for another permanent solution against Long and Gifts that is more synergistic. Against Gifts and Long it's pretty obvious that the UBW build is superiour.

Chalice has been extremely good to me, it allowed me to beat my Long opponent at Boston, and was the only reason I took it to game three against Herbig at Boston. You can run more Orim's Chant's if you'd like, but I wouldn't personally.

Edit II: I still like Old Man better than Threads. For Grunts I do play an extra Explosives. A strong reason for Old Man in my eyes is so more upcoming Mirror, where Old Man ist pretty a bomb Wink

Old Man gets one of the 4x STP, which blows hard.

Against what Matchups do you board in Meddling Mages: I don't see the mages that much as sideboard material. It's just a bomb against Oath where I really would like to board them in. Against Long and Gifts they are so, so. I always seemed to me, that Meddling Mage should be played maindeck or not.

I bring them in against Long, Fish, Bomberman mirror, and sometimes Gifts. They aren't that great, I agree. But I haven't found anything that I like so much. I just feel very safe knowing in my sideboard I have an answer to certain decks that may not be the best, but is certainly good.

Stax? I haven't played against Stax in a very long time, and when I used to play vs it, I always demolished it. I might put Energy Flux somewhere there but I'm not overly concerned.

My biggest fear with this deck is a good Gifts player. Bad ones are a bye. But a good Gifts player will smack you up, and you won't even realize what happened.

[JR]

A few reasons I don't like JR's list.

4x Auriok Salvagers, its a four mana SORCERY. Jizzy Crizzy I hate drawing two as it is, I usually board down to two vs. a lot of control decks.
4x Merchant Scroll, I see the strength in fetching FoW vs combo, but I feel as if it is similar if you would put Merchant Scroll in Control Slaver, and 4x Scroll in Slaver isn't right most likely. And if you find yourself fetching Wipe Away a lot, I guess I'll put one in my Cunning Wish SB, so I don't need to maindeck it.
3x Brainstorm!? The card is too good, it fixes all my mana problems which this deck can encounter.

Why Cunning Wish is the nut high right now too, lots of mirror matches are starting to stroll along. I can lay a Chalice at one cut off spellbombs and still win through Cunning Wish Brainfreeze. Now that I like.

Elias,

I think you overlook the power of scroll in bomberman. I have found scroll amolst invaluable in almost all of my tournament wins and splits. with trinket mage giving you early access to black lotus, I find that scroll allows for you to not only play control alot better (getting FoW), but also can help you play the tempo game much better.

Please keep in mind that my lists are all metagame based. I honestly don't think they would perform well if not in the midwest, a meta in which my list has never had a losing record at a tournament. A word to the wise: don't copy my list and expect to do well. Especially the board.

I think the only reason I am running 4 salvagers still is that I play the deck very controlling, and many times I feel that in the mid to late game, salvagers+spellbomb is the best draw engine. Alot of times I feel establishing this engine is extremely important in matches like slaver.

I originally tested cunning wish, before you played it at waterbury and SCG, in testing for the RIW power 9 last summer (great minds think alike, eh?). I found it clunky, and I thought it was very "win more". I will definately grant your point about the mirror, it seems strong in that matchup.

Honestly, I haven't missed the 4th brainstorm ever. I did it at first to combat chalice at one, and just never looked back. If I added the fourth (probably for a dood), I would cut strip mine for a delta.   

I think ritual based combo is still the worst matchup for the deck. Gifts is difficult, but in my two matches against Steve, I have found myself in winning positions. I lost at RIW due to poor math skills, and thus I FoWed the wrong spell. If I could add, I think the match might have been different.

Lastly, I dispute your claim as the bombermaster. I think we are at least on the same level 

Cheers, and hope this was some food for thought,
JR.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Thanks for the reply JR, I'm not sold on Merchant Scroll but I just may have been convinced to test two or three out.

I understand Salvagers is a fantastic draw engine, but 4x is a little extreme, they aren't exactly Fact Or Fiction. Esepcially if you walk into a Drain, oh dear, but I guess you might not have too many Drain matches in the Midwest...

If you want to combat storm, play Chalice and Meddling Mage I guess, the team of them combined are really a beating.

I think you need to try Cunning Wish again, it's very reactive in this deck and in general I'm not Wishing for FoF very often, but it's been really my shining star. I feel so safe knowing I have an answer to everything. It won me countless matchups at Boston, from my opponent comboing off with Gifts and having a storm count of 16 and me casting Brainfreeze in response to Brainstorm, to Cwishing for a Misdirection to hit an Ancestral...

Oh, one more thing...what do you think about Mana Leak? I'm on a love/hate relationship with it right now. Sometimes it can be like the most devastating card ever or the worst. Was Disrupt any better? I wouldn't imagine it to be good for some strange reason.

We'll see if I scrub out this weekend at Virginia if I still have the rights to be the bombermaster.

[JR]

I have found that leak is better as a nonexistent threat than an actual card. In my semi final match against Brian Demars at RIW, he figured I was playing leak, as I would play early moxen to show it. This slowed down slaver and helped tilt the match into a more winnable situation for me.

Disrupt is good because people DO NOT play around it. Alot of times, I will use it on cards like a brainstorm, which can prove to be quite nuts. My friend Angel Rivera played my list exactly at Sandusky and split with JD in the finals, only he replaced disrupt with Spell Snare. I think it served him well. Really I think that this switch proves that have some sort of situational counter in the board is worth it; I prefer disrupt. It is a card that absolutely punishes poor play. That about sums it up.

When I was playing with Wish, I was also running scroll; maybe this was too many slots. I'll certainly test your list in the near future.

I have boarded brainfreeze at various points, but without wish. I have found it a pretty good answer to storm and gifts.

Best of luck in VA. I had an exam, so I had to cancel the travel plans in Demars' car, which really sucked. If you scrub out day one, you should run my list day two! Really put the lists to the test!

JR.

[wethepeople]

I have boarded brainfreeze at various points, but without wish. I have found it a pretty good answer to storm and gifts.

Brain Freeze was always on my mind to be used versus Combo, but I always thought that it requires them to draw in order for them to lose. Is this correct?

[JR]

For a loss directly related to brainfreeze this is true. This is why you play it in response to late game draw spells like BS. Many times, playing it during a players will can also be game over.

[SMac]

Brainfreeze also dominates the bomberman mirror if the opponent doesn't expect brainfreeze via C Wish or if you get it in your hand before he goes off. He can't combo out without losing if you have the freeze in hand.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

This weekend really jolted back my confidence in Mana Leak, it was insane against Fish, Long, and Stax. I won't leave home without it again. Cunning Wish proved solid as well, although I didn't get to use it as much as I would have liked to. Mana Leak is the best way to hold the early game in Bomberman, which is the worst for the deck. Late game is where you shine, but early game is tough since the deck is so darn slow.

[MaKu]

this sideboard was in Simon McRae's deck for boston where he got second place.

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kami Of Ancient Law
2 Ronom Unicorn
2 Darkblast
3 Kataki, War's Wage

i don't understand the 2 kami of ancient law and the 2 ronom unicorn.
is there so much enchantment's at boston or do i over look something?

also where did he put the cotv on?
and what is possible to cut from your deck if playing vs fish, staxx, gifts and long?