UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[BreathWeapon]

If you add Bob, are you going to cut the one drops or 2 drops? If you cut the one drops, the deck becomes too congested at that slot. I can't see cutting MM or Grunt, so it would seem that Kataki would get the axe? I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Kataki. He's pretty good against any artifact-heavy deck and combined with Rod is a house.

I'm not saying Bob/Duress are bad, the question is, where do we fit them in?

It's not difficult; Rod becomes Chalice, Isamuru and Lion become Duress and Confidant, and the curves are equivalent.

This is the U/w/b Fish I use in an unproxied metagame,

MD

4 Force of Will
4 Daze*

4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress

4 Kataki, War's Wage*
4 Chalice of the Void*

4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm

4 Stifle*

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland*

4 Jotun Grunt*

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island

*Just cut one of these card to add Ancestral Recall, Time Walk and Echoing Truth. Adding acceleration is debatable, I prefer the deck with out it, because it creates color issues and is turned off via Kataki or Chalice.

Three things I want to address are,

1) Echoing Truth>Swords to Plowshares.

People need to stop using Swords to Plowshares; being a white card is bad, giving the opponent life is worse and not removing the relevant threats in the metagame is unforgivable. Echoing Truth is blue, it removes Tinker->Colossus and Empty the Warrens, it resets Jotun Grunt and it does an innumerable amount of other things Swords to Plowshares doesn't.**

2) Seasinger>Old Man of the Sea

One costs 50 cents, the other costs 50 dollars ... hmm ... Seasinger can steal Jotun Grunt and Darksteel Colossus in addition to all of Old Man of the Sea's targets, which makes him superior across the board.**

3) Engineered Explosives>the rest of the bad cards in Fish SBs.

This is the card that deals with Empty the Warrens, Moxes, Chalices, Oaths and the mirror match.

**Yes, I realize Swords to Plowshares and Old Man of the Sea are better against Zoo.dec, but instead of preparing the MD and SB for Zoo.dec, I suggest you direct him to the nearest Legacy tournament.

U/w/b has a better match up against control and combo, and it has a better match up against Oath in exchange for a worse match up against Stax; I think it is better than U/w, unless U/w is using True Believer

[wethepeople]

I agree with BW, I did not focus on the sideboard much when I explained my list a bit, but I am sure it would not be altered too much. I still like the Leylines, however they may be able to be replaced by Planar Voids.

I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Kataki. He's pretty good against any artifact-heavy deck and combined with Rod is a house.

Kataki and Null Rod are not good together in one deck IMO. For one, Kataki works to kill Rod. Secondly, 6-7 artifact hosers really seems to me like overkill in a single deck.
---
Echoing Truth is my new weapon of choice because it is actually versatile where as STP is not. If I am to expect a lot of Fish, I would still run both. Etruth has won me several games before, and with virtually every Gifts deck running ETW game two, it may be necessary to board in.

I may try a couple Swords and a single Etruth MD, then possibly run another Truth in the sideboard for Gifts. EE hasnt been on my radar since when I played SS a while back, but actually it seems great right now to get rid of those pesky 16 1/1 Goblins on my opponents board. I certainly find it strange that rather than boarding out my bounce and creature removal, I bring in more now. 

One thing that I do not understand is, why did you play a deck packed with Null Rods, CotVs, and Kataki's for a Sactioned tournament? I would expect that not too many people would be running power, so why all the artifact disruption?

[BreathWeapon]

There's nothing wrong with Leyline in the SB; just say no to Ichorid.

I wouldn't be concerned with using Echoing Truth over Swords to Plowshares in the MD, because Fish is a deck that has to be designed to deal with the Tier 1 first, and then it can SB in answers to Ichorid, Fish, Oath and Stax. The Fish deck MDing Swords to Plowshares instead of Echoing Truth is asking to lose to Empty the Warrens game one, and that isn't a risk worth taking, in comparison to having a "dead" card against other Fish decks (and it isn't that "dead," because it can be used to save a creature from removal or lethal combat damage; Echoing Truth in response to Threads of Disloyalty on Jotun Grunt is the best play EVAR)

Echoing Truth is an absurd card.

Did I forget to mention that Seasinger can gain control of Oath Angels? If the opponent doesn't SB them out, because the deck is using bounce instead of removal, take advantage of it game three.

[wethepeople]

If I am to put out a UWb list, I have a feeling that it is going to utilize the new card from Planar Chaos, Root of Evil.

The link to the card is found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31719.0

Any Input on RoE in Fish? The card is ridiculous.

[Xiphoid]

Oh yeah, it's totally crazy. Assuming this card is correct and it doesn't get restricted, there's no reason not to play with a black splash anymore. It helps in every matchup. Even against Long combo, with all the 1 of's, grabbing Brainstorm or Force in PitchLong is pretty strong for just 1 black mana.\

 It's completely ridonkulus!

[brianpk80]

Most of the lists here are very solid.  One thing to consider for the sideboard is the use of Serra Avenger.  When I played Fish heavily, I found the Avenger to be a wrecking ball in the very prevalent Fish mirror.  The "cast only after third turn" clause wasn't very prohibitive at all (and using Vials got around that) but even without Vials, Serra Avenger puts a timely and lopsided end on the type of combat standstills that happen all the time in the Fish mirror.  I was surprised and impressed by how effective it was. 

Kami of Ancient Law is also a very worthwhile dedication in the sideboard for Oath, Dragon, and other random enchantments (Counterbalance, Future Sight, Pyrostatic Pillar, Fastbond, Moat/Abyss, etc.).  My preference was always to use Kami for enchantments and mass artifact bounce (Hurkyl's/Rebuild) for Stax-like decks rather than running Seal of Cleansing.  If the sideboard is tight and you have to two-for-one those archetypes by using Seal, then it's understandable. 

Also, Children of Korlis were effective against both combo and Ichorid (huge stall for opponent), and may work in place of some of the Leylines depending on what else you're expecting to see.  Overall, my hunch is that the current sideboard of five different 3-of's, many of whose targets overlap, could be optimized. 

-BPK

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Dave, I am not sure if this came up in the thread, but it occurs frequently in other formats..Jitte wars.

Jitte wars in Fish. Have you ever thought of a way to *out* Jitte the opponent. Or do you just hope you draw better in those situations? Especially since we have been seeing many carbon copies of your deck, I think having an option might be important. Maybe going up to four of those Jittes.

[wethepeople]

I have sometimes brought Null Rod back in if I am positive my opponent brought in Jitte. Is it a bad play to board out Rods versus a practically unpowered Fish deck?

I can't wait for UWb now that I can totally abuse Root of Evil. If I am not mistaken, it can take out Nonbasics?

Turn one: Waste your U.Sea.
Turn two: Root of Evil. gg black mana sources.

[BreathWeapon]

Dave, I am not sure if this came up in the thread, but it occurs frequently in other formats..Jitte wars.

Jitte wars in Fish. Have you ever thought of a way to *out* Jitte the opponent. Or do you just hope you draw better in those situations? Especially since we have been seeing many carbon copies of your deck, I think having an option might be important. Maybe going up to four of those Jittes.

Use Engineered Explosives intead of Umezawa's Jitte? There's no point in fighting the Jitte war when Fish can let it resolve and remove it with Explosives; the Jitte war has nothing on the Explosives war, and the Fish with Explosives vs Jitte has a serious advantage.

Castirpate is SO wrong, it is going to change the face of control deck's manabases and counterbases to deal with it.

[wethepeople]

I also prefer EE over Jitte. EE takes out the goblins for ETW for zero (which is HUGE), as well as gets rid of Jitte and most likely several other dudes that they have on their board. The only time that Explosives is weaker is when they have Null Rod on the table, but then it defeats the whole purpose because they now are eliminating your main target anyway.

[Everrid1234]

UW vs. UWb:

First, the manabase of UWb is weaker. I don't like fetching for Underground Sea in the first turn to Duress. A following Wasteland could screw me. So you would have to add a basic swamp (but fetching for Swamp in fish is very bad, you need blue primarily or white, and not a Swamp). So the other way would be fetch for Underground Sea, drop Mox and place a Confidant which is of course strong. But how many Manaboosters are in this deck? 4. So the probability to get off like this isnt high. This makes correct play a bit difficult.
And would you cut Stifle or Daze or what for the Duress? I think the combination of Daze, FoW and Stifle is also nice.

The Confidant has X/1 which can be devastating. A good player having a Darkblast/Lava Dart in the SB can destroy your whole draw plan. The Ninja has X/2 which protects him. Furthermore, Ninja draws instantly and can be ninjitused in which can be very good against Drain based decks. I think this is a relevant argument. No Drain player counters Icatian Javelineers and voilà --> the Ninja is running.
Sure, the Ninja slows down, which is a big issue.

Besides, a smaller amount of blue cards makes it sometimes necessary to remove a needed card for FoW.

The Confidant deals damage to me which doesn't make the Tendrils- or Aggro-Matchup easier. He sets yourself under pressure to win faster.

I am testing UWb currently so I am not toally rejecting to play Confidant (he is of course very good staying on the table drawing nice cheap things each turn), but i see problems.


Jitte vs. EE: There can not really be a discussion of which one over which one. Jitte is totally good against nearly each aggro deck, while EE sometimes only destroys one or two creatures. Jitte can kill multiple creatures each turn while protecting your own ones, no matter how much the casting cost of the creatures is. The only argument for EE I can see is ETW-decks.
It can of course not replace anything like Disenchant vs. Oath.

Echoing Truth: Only argument is ETW. Against nearly each other deck a simple Swords can do much more.


Here is my current U/W build (very broad field to use this deck in):

3 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Meddling Mage
4 Icatian Javelineers
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Null Rod

3 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

1 Swords
1 Kataki
3 Jitte
2 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Null Rod
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Orim's Chant
2 Old Man of the Sea


Modifications for UWb would be:

-2 Basics + 2 Underground Sea
-3 Ninja  + 3 Confidant

[Implacable]

We have a new UWB list that we're trying out; we feel like Extirpate, being a very good card, is one of the missing pieces that will now bump WUB over the hill:

I WUB You 2K7:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Kataki, War's Wage

4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Extirpate
3 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine

Card Explanations:

Creature Suite: Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt, Kataki, War's Wage, Isamaru, Hound of Konda

The Dark Confidants and Meddling Mages are self-explanatory; they're one of the main reasons to even include their color in a Fish deck, and the Mages in particular get much better with Extirpate and Duress to provide free peeks at your opponent's hand.  Jotun Grunt: I can still remember when this guy was getting dissed in the opening days of his release (just like, say, Extirpate).  No more.  This guy is so ridiculously undercosted and disruptive that I almost want to run four.  The Katakis are yet another two-drop which I may end up switching out for Savannah Lions, but I like the fact that they slow down decks like Gifts and Slaver while also giving Stax fits, especially in conjunction with any sideboarded Energy Fluxes.  The Isamarus are a one-drop, and a much needed one; their resistance to Darkblast is just a plus.

Disruption Suite: Duress, Force of Will, Extirpate, Null Rod, Swords to Plowshares

I like this mix because it gives me the best disruption of all three colors, whereas I had to settle for cards like Daze (which I don't care for much right now).  Duress and Force of Will are the obvious four-ofs, because they're the best disruption in the format.  I settled on 3 Extirpates, and my small card draw engine should give me a decent chance to draw into one after my disruption has put a good card into their graveyard.  The 3 Null Rods are as amazing as always, and while I'm not overjoyed to run only 2 Swords in my Fish-infested metagame, there simply was no room.

[wethepeople]

UW vs. UWb:

First, the manabase of UWb is weaker. I don't like fetching for Underground Sea in the first turn to Duress. A following Wasteland could screw me. So you would have to add a basic swamp (but fetching for Swamp in fish is very bad, you need blue primarily or white, and not a Swamp). So the other way would be fetch for Underground Sea, drop Mox and place a Confidant which is of course strong. But how many Manaboosters are in this deck? 4. So the probability to get off like this isnt high. This makes correct play a bit difficult.
And would you cut Stifle or Daze or what for the Duress? I think the combination of Daze, FoW and Stifle is also nice.

The Confidant has X/1 which can be devastating. A good player having a Darkblast/Lava Dart in the SB can destroy your whole draw plan. The Ninja has X/2 which protects him. Furthermore, Ninja draws instantly and can be ninjitused in which can be very good against Drain based decks. I think this is a relevant argument. No Drain player counters Icatian Javelineers and voilà --> the Ninja is running.
Sure, the Ninja slows down, which is a big issue.

Besides, a smaller amount of blue cards makes it sometimes necessary to remove a needed card for FoW.

The Confidant deals damage to me which doesn't make the Tendrils- or Aggro-Matchup easier. He sets yourself under pressure to win faster.

I am testing UWb currently so I am not toally rejecting to play Confidant (he is of course very good staying on the table drawing nice cheap things each turn), but i see problems.


Jitte vs. EE: There can not really be a discussion of which one over which one. Jitte is totally good against nearly each aggro deck, while EE sometimes only destroys one or two creatures. Jitte can kill multiple creatures each turn while protecting your own ones, no matter how much the casting cost of the creatures is. The only argument for EE I can see is ETW-decks.
It can of course not replace anything like Disenchant vs. Oath.

Echoing Truth: Only argument is ETW. Against nearly each other deck a simple Swords can do much more.

@Everrid

You really seem to underestimating the power of Empty the Warrens. If you have even once tested against it, you will see how strong it is beacuse it is just so easy to set up, and Fish has almost no way to stop it. Echoing Truth is far stronger than Swords, not only for ETW, but it can take out things besides creatures, because keep in mind that not all decks even run creatures, take Gifts for example. So Gifts being one of the most popular decks in Vintage right now, you do not want to be drawing STPs game one and watching them combo out with 15 Goblin tokens.

Swords wouldnt be cut entirely, but it still isn't good enough right now to run three.

On the subject of Engineered Explosives/Umezawa's Jitte: Why on earth would you like to spend four mana + a creature, so five mana at the least to take out a few creatures, when you could pay three, maybe even four to take out several. EE can also take out Goblin tokens, opposing Chalices, Moxen, whatever you please, however Jitte can only take care of a few creatures. I think Jitte is a little too narrow right now.

Are you honestly debating to not-run Dark Confidant because it hits you with damage every once and a while and it it is NOT good in the Combo/Aggro matchup? I think you have it all wrong. Dark Confidant does everything in the Fish mirror, it basically determines who wins because it gives you twice as many "draws" as your opponent does, the part that it deals 1-2 damage tops each turn is nothing you should be worrying about.

Lastly, you mentioned that the manabase is weaker, that is true, don't get me wrong. But incase you haven't noticed the black splash is ONLY being considered to improve the Contol/Combo matchup, not Stax. If you are worried about Stax and Fish, keep it two colors to make your mana base more consistent.
---

Implacable, I am glad that you also are trying to put together a list to take advantage of Extirpate, and so far it looks good. The only thing I ask, and it seems to be the only thing that really bothers me about UW Fish, but why do you play Hounds/Lions? I really dont understand what's so good about dealing one additional damage turn when you can pay the same amount of mana for a creature that actually does something. I have always suggested running a better one drop such as Children of Korlis, or even Ication Javelineers, depending on the designated metagame, simply because they actually do something besides attack. This may just be me, but I personally hate running 1-cc Grizzly Bears in my deck.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't understand the emphasis on one drops either, Lion's and Isamuru are worthless in comparison to Believer, and Fish can compensate for the increase in the curve via replacing Null Rod with Chalice of the Void (Chalice and Kataki seems more sensible than Rod and Kataki to begin with).

The basic disruption elements are going to be Force of Will, Misdirection, Daze, Stifle and Duress. I don't think Extirpate has a place in the MD, because it's just a bad version of Hide/Seek and 9/10 wont make a significant difference to the opponent.

No one plays Stax, get over it.

[Implacable]

UW vs. UWb:

First, the manabase of UWb is weaker. I don't like fetching for Underground Sea in the first turn to Duress. A following Wasteland could screw me. So you would have to add a basic swamp (but fetching for Swamp in fish is very bad, you need blue primarily or white, and not a Swamp). So the other way would be fetch for Underground Sea, drop Mox and place a Confidant which is of course strong. But how many Manaboosters are in this deck? 4. So the probability to get off like this isnt high. This makes correct play a bit difficult.
And would you cut Stifle or Daze or what for the Duress? I think the combination of Daze, FoW and Stifle is also nice.

The Confidant has X/1 which can be devastating. A good player having a Darkblast/Lava Dart in the SB can destroy your whole draw plan. The Ninja has X/2 which protects him. Furthermore, Ninja draws instantly and can be ninjitused in which can be very good against Drain based decks. I think this is a relevant argument. No Drain player counters Icatian Javelineers and voilà --> the Ninja is running.
Sure, the Ninja slows down, which is a big issue.

Besides, a smaller amount of blue cards makes it sometimes necessary to remove a needed card for FoW.

The Confidant deals damage to me which doesn't make the Tendrils- or Aggro-Matchup easier. He sets yourself under pressure to win faster.

I am testing UWb currently so I am not toally rejecting to play Confidant (he is of course very good staying on the table drawing nice cheap things each turn), but i see problems.


Jitte vs. EE: There can not really be a discussion of which one over which one. Jitte is totally good against nearly each aggro deck, while EE sometimes only destroys one or two creatures. Jitte can kill multiple creatures each turn while protecting your own ones, no matter how much the casting cost of the creatures is. The only argument for EE I can see is ETW-decks.
It can of course not replace anything like Disenchant vs. Oath.

Echoing Truth: Only argument is ETW. Against nearly each other deck a simple Swords can do much more.

@Everrid

You really seem to underestimating the power of Empty the Warrens. If you have even once tested against it, you will see how strong it is beacuse it is just so easy to set up, and Fish has almost no way to stop it. Echoing Truth is far stronger than Swords, not only for ETW, but it can take out things besides creatures, because keep in mind that not all decks even run creatures, take Gifts for example. So Gifts being one of the most popular decks in Vintage right now, you do not want to be drawing STPs game one and watching them combo out with 15 Goblin tokens.

Swords wouldnt be cut entirely, but it still isn't good enough right now to run three.

On the subject of Engineered Explosives/Umezawa's Jitte: Why on earth would you like to spend four mana + a creature, so five mana at the least to take out a few creatures, when you could pay three, maybe even four to take out several. EE can also take out Goblin tokens, opposing Chalices, Moxen, whatever you please, however Jitte can only take care of a few creatures. I think Jitte is a little too narrow right now.

Are you honestly debating to not-run Dark Confidant because it hits you with damage every once and a while and it it is NOT good in the Combo/Aggro matchup? I think you have it all wrong. Dark Confidant does everything in the Fish mirror, it basically determines who wins because it gives you twice as many "draws" as your opponent does, the part that it deals 1-2 damage tops each turn is nothing you should be worrying about.

Lastly, you mentioned that the manabase is weaker, that is true, don't get me wrong. But incase you haven't noticed the black splash is ONLY being considered to improve the Contol/Combo matchup, not Stax. If you are worried about Stax and Fish, keep it two colors to make your mana base more consistent.
---

Implacable, I am glad that you also are trying to put together a list to take advantage of Extirpate, and so far it looks good. The only thing I ask, and it seems to be the only thing that really bothers me about UW Fish, but why do you play Hounds/Lions? I really dont understand what's so good about dealing one additional damage turn when you can pay the same amount of mana for a creature that actually does something. I have always suggested running a better one drop such as Children of Korlis, or even Ication Javelineers, depending on the designated metagame, simply because they actually do something besides attack. This may just be me, but I personally hate running 1-cc Grizzly Bears in my deck.

Saying that something is a 1CC Grizzly Bear is a contradiction in terms, to belabor the obvious.  The reason that I use the two Isamarus, and would not be unhappy to add 2 more Lions, is that you need a one-drop to lay down fast beats against control decks with stupid late-games (Gifts and Slaver).  If all of your dudes can only be played on turn 2, your clock slows down dramatically, and your mana curve gets clogged.  It's odd that I don't see much discussion of curves here on TMD; it's probably because of how unpredictable your accelerants-per-hand quantities are.  However, Fish decks should always harken back to 1995, where Sligh annhilated The Deck by curving out with aggressive dudes backed by disruption.

[BreathWeapon]

Adding one turn to the clock is nothing in comparison to drawing a card with Confidant, turning off the opponent's acceleration with Kataki, creating a dead card with Mage, removing their discard with Grunt or turning off Duress, Gifts, Tendrils, Slaver etc. with Believer.

Besides, turn one 2 power creature "go" isn't what Fish should be concerned with, it should be concerned with turn one Duress or Stifle, preventing the opponent from resolving a spell and winning the game; control decks didn't EOTGIFTSGG on turn 3 in 1995.

[kirdape3]

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock.  Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent.  You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind).  I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

[BreathWeapon]

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock.  Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent.  You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind).  I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

If Duress and/or Stifle are enough to get the deck to turn two, then their job is done. It's all about being able to disrupt the opponent on turn one, and then disrupt/clock the opponent on turn two. Fish has always been about creatures with utility abilities and not Zoo/u.

EBA doesn't use Null Rod, it uses Chalice of the Void.

[Implacable]

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock.  Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent.  You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind).  I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

If Duress and/or Stifle are enough to get the deck to turn two, then their job is done. It's all about being able to disrupt the opponent on turn one, and then disrupt/clock the opponent on turn two. Fish has always been about creatures with utility abilities and not Zoo/u.

EBA doesn't use Null Rod, it uses Chalice of the Void.

I really believe that that argument is why Fish often isn't competitive with Gifts.  Gifts protects its combo with amazing cards, while Fish tries to disrupt combo with good cards.  If you match your disruption to their protection symmetrically, you will lose.  The key is the addition of the third element, the clock, which puts pressure on Gifts and doesn't allow them to maximize their protection, which requires development to utilize.

[BreathWeapon]

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock.  Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent.  You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind).  I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

If Duress and/or Stifle are enough to get the deck to turn two, then their job is done. It's all about being able to disrupt the opponent on turn one, and then disrupt/clock the opponent on turn two. Fish has always been about creatures with utility abilities and not Zoo/u.

EBA doesn't use Null Rod, it uses Chalice of the Void.

I really believe that that argument is why Fish often isn't competitive with Gifts.  Gifts protects its combo with amazing cards, while Fish tries to disrupt combo with good cards.  If you match your disruption to their protection symmetrically, you will lose.  The key is the addition of the third element, the clock, which puts pressure on Gifts and doesn't allow them to maximize their protection, which requires development to utilize.

A 2cc 2 power threat is one turn slower than a 1cc 2 power threat, and it has a relevant affect on the opponent's deck. Stating that "Isamaru Go" is the reason Fish competes with Gifts etc. is invalidating the success of Fish decks from U/r to SS, besides, the deck has a dedicated clock in Grunt. If the deck wanted another dedicated clock, it would be better off with Negator than Isamaru.

[seer]

How strong is the Echoing Truth plan in actual testing? Gifts seems to have 11-12 maindeck "counters" for Echoing Truth on goblin tokens (Force, Mana Drain, Repeal). That's if they don't bring in pyroblast. I find when I play against fish now I don't really need to burn my counters on any of their spells when playing gifts so it is easy to have ample countermagic to protect my win.

[BreathWeapon]

How strong is the Echoing Truth plan in actual testing? Gifts seems to have 11-12 maindeck "counters" for Echoing Truth on goblin tokens (Force, Mana Drain, Repeal). That's if they don't bring in pyroblast. I find when I play against fish now I don't really need to burn my counters on any of their spells when playing gifts so it is easy to have ample countermagic to protect my win.

It depends on whether or not there was a counter war over Stifle or Rod/Chalice is on the board, if Gifts managed to resolve Warrens with out a fight, then it's probable that the Echoing Truth is going to be Misdirected. Mana Drain, Red Elemental Blast and Repeal aren't that much of an issue if your mana disruption has been doing it's job and your Echoing Truth is in hand, otherwise think of Echoing Truth as a virtual Daze, giving you a Time Walk while your opponent tries to find the mana to resolve Warrens and keep U/R open for Red Elemental Blast or Repeal.

[Implacable]

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock.  Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent.  You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind).  I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

If Duress and/or Stifle are enough to get the deck to turn two, then their job is done. It's all about being able to disrupt the opponent on turn one, and then disrupt/clock the opponent on turn two. Fish has always been about creatures with utility abilities and not Zoo/u.

EBA doesn't use Null Rod, it uses Chalice of the Void.

I really believe that that argument is why Fish often isn't competitive with Gifts.  Gifts protects its combo with amazing cards, while Fish tries to disrupt combo with good cards.  If you match your disruption to their protection symmetrically, you will lose.  The key is the addition of the third element, the clock, which puts pressure on Gifts and doesn't allow them to maximize their protection, which requires development to utilize.

A 2cc 2 power threat is one turn slower than a 1cc 2 power threat, and it has a relevant affect on the opponent's deck. Stating that "Isamaru Go" is the reason Fish competes with Gifts etc. is invalidating the success of Fish decks from U/r to SS, besides, the deck has a dedicated clock in Grunt. If the deck wanted another dedicated clock, it would be better off with Negator than Isamaru.

Having 1-drops means that your mana curve does not clog during a game.  Being able to mix and match 1 and 2 drops is a critical part of curving out correctly, which is the only way that Fish can beat Gifts.  By this, I mean that you must be able to play 1 and 2 mana spells during your first three turns in such a way as to use every available mana (which generally totals 6).  With more 2 drops, you cannot maximize your third turn, a turn that is one of the two turns during which Gifts can realistically go off.  If you don't maximize the turn, you are going to lose, because you cannot compete coming from behind.  I realize that this example may seem overly technical, but the fundamental turn in which control decks take control of the game/go broken is the third turn, and that example applies to decks across the board.  Approaching that as a mathematical constraint on your deckbuilding will improve the results.

[roberts91rom]

I noticed that a lot of these lists posted here don't run True Believer. Was the WW cost too inconsistant in testing? To me it seems like Meddling Mage 5-8 is some good. Shutting down Gifts, Intuition and Tendrils all at once while Mage cuts down Tinker and their removal/bounce looks powerful enough to fetch out your Tundras instead of Islands, or even running Plains.

A 2cc 2 power threat is one turn slower than a 1cc 2 power threat, and it has a relevant affect on the opponent's deck. Stating that "Isamaru Go" is the reason Fish competes with Gifts etc. is invalidating the success of Fish decks from U/r to SS, besides, the deck has a dedicated clock in Grunt. If the deck wanted another dedicated clock, it would be better off with Negator than Isamaru.

I agree 100% and I generally laugh at decks that run "Savannah Lions". If 2/x was a good clock Stompy would dominate the format to no end. Turn 1 should be disruption or draw. Turn 2 a clock/disruption followed by turn 3 clock/disruption/draw. "Isamaru Go" is a good way to have a Gifts resolve on turn 2 in your face.

Absolutely it is worthwhile to have a faster clock. Your disruption just doesn't last that long in this format as all of these decks can get out of a Null Rod, or being Duressed, or a fetchland Stifled - especially if you give them more turns to do it with.

The lists that don't run one mana creatures either expect to draw their Moxen a ton (reasonable if rather lucky) or hope that Stifling a fetchland is enough (subtle hint, it isn't) to kill the opponent. You have the ability to do that stuff, but you really should be trying to pressure their life total, preferably with creatures that are seriously threatening to the opponent (True Believer, Meddling Mage, Kataki, War's Wage, and Jotun Grunt come to mind). I've won so many games by having 3 one-drops on turn 2 and then using my spells to defend myself afterwards - if those had been additional disruption pieces that didn't attack or block, I'd have lost.

Also, those lists that run black cards either can't run Null Rod or don't expect to face the mirror/Stax ever.

I run black AND Null Rod. I stomped the mirror badly in a tournament for a Mox. The game you won with 3 "Savannah Lions" your opponent either kept a slow hand, a bad hand or was mana screwed. I refuse to believe that 3 2/X can race an 11/11 trample, Tendrils or EtW.

Edit: You don't need to run bad cards just for the sake of curving. I use all 6 mana almost every game in play barring some form of mana screw. I will admit that the Stax matchup is a problem, but nobody in my meta is running Stax at the moment so screw it.

[wethepeople]

I noticed that a lot of these lists posted here don't run True Believer. Was the WW cost too inconsistant in testing? To me it seems like Meddling Mage 5-8 is some good. Shutting down Gifts, Intuition and Tendrils all at once while Mage cuts down Tinker and their removal/bounce looks powerful enough to fetch out your Tundras instead of Islands, or even running Plains.

In UW, achieving two white mana is no problem at all, I actually have chose to run it maindeck rather than using Kataki, although, considering that my Stax matchup was poor, and I had already dedicated a great majority of my main board to Gifts, CS, and Combo, I felt that I should atleast have something different. Kataki also serves a purpose versus Gifts, CS, because it deprives your opponent of his moxen, just as Null Rod would, where as True Believer is more narrow, and only pays off in very few matchups.

I would not however choose to run True Believer in my UWb build, due to the fact that getting that two [W] is a far greater struggle because you also need  early game, so turn two your mana base is usually Tundra, Underground Sea. If you really want to, you can run Scrublands in addition to the Tundras in U.Seas to be able to get one of each required color by turn two [using fetches], but if your list has a fairly high amount of blue spells, I would not recomend doing so.

A 2cc 2 power threat is one turn slower than a 1cc 2 power threat, and it has a relevant affect on the opponent's deck. Stating that "Isamaru Go" is the reason Fish competes with Gifts etc. is invalidating the success of Fish decks from U/r to SS, besides, the deck has a dedicated clock in Grunt. If the deck wanted another dedicated clock, it would be better off with Negator than Isamaru.

I agree 100% and I generally laugh at decks that run "Savannah Lions". If 2/x was a good clock Stompy would dominate the format to no end. Turn 1 should be disruption or draw. Turn 2 a clock/disruption followed by turn 3 clock/disruption/draw. "Isamaru Go" is a good way to have a Gifts resolve on turn 2 in your face.

This is actually the reason why I have always been one to emphasize running Children of Korlis over Lions/Isamaru's. Quite frankly, I would not care whether or not my clock can exert one additional damage to overall win in the long run, because versus Gifts and Combo, you probably won't make it nearly that far if you depend on these creatures. With Children of Korlis, you are able to prevent your opponent from winning because you are forcing them to find bounce, creature removal, etc, while you sit back and set up additional disruption to make it virtually impossible for your opponent to ever get back into the game.

[kirdape3]

What I'm testing and what you guys are saying are two completely different things.

1) Savannah Lions and Isamaru, Hounds of Konda serve only to shorten the clock.  However, this is absolutely critical because the longer the game progresses the worse your chances are of actually winning the game.  They'll find their out to Null Rod, Meddling Mage, True Believer, Stifle, getting Duressed, whatever you have.  Why give them more time to find that out because you're busy casting a Duress that they already should have an idea on how to combat?

2) U/r Fish won because the atrocious manabases of the era couldn't compete with Wasteland plus Spiketail Hatchling.  It's pretty pathetic, really.  Try playing U/r now with it's fifteen-turn kill and see how good it is.  SS had the same problem - the kill was SO slow that if you slowplayed it correctly you couldn't lose to that deck.  TK won those tournaments because his opponents tried to run him out of defense then win the game, rather than just overwhelming that defense with one critical turn.  SS hasn't been played in a good long while because of stuff like this.

3) I mean, believe what you will about how good a strict U/W version with Lions is.  Tendrils is a bad kill against a deck with a lot of ways of stopping it, few people run 11/11 tramplers (preferring their 7/10 mana-destroying machines nowadays), and what Fish deck currently has many outs to Empty the Warrens anyways?  I have 3 currently (Trickbind) and it's still a giant beating.

I'm pretty sure that I think that Savannah Lions and Isamarus are only short of Ancestral Recall in terms of turn 1 one-mana plays in Fish.  I would much, much rather tap my Tundra for Lion than I would to tap Underground Sea for Duress, ESPECIALLY on the draw (if they respond to Duress with Brainstorm, you just literally wasted your entire turn) or tap it for Stifle.  I just don't think you have the kind of time to be dicking around with Duress and Stifle on a fetchland (Stifle on their Empty the Warrens is however pretty awesome and I heartily recommend it) when the field can get out of or prevent your Meddling Mage/True Believer from being a threat to them.

That being said, the last list I had of Fish had Chrome Mox in it and I would consider running Lotus Petal.  I want to get to two mana as quickly as possible because while Lion and Isamaru are really good, True Believer is light-years better and Jotun Grunt is absurd.  Believer is the only reason right now to even bother with Fish - it's the one card that's really scary for the best blue decks in the format.

[Dxfiler]

First, here's the list I ran at waterbury and the changes I'd make to it-

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    3  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Old Man of the Sea
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty


This is pretty much the exact list I posted earlier in the thread.  Last minute additions were stifle (thanks to you guys) and no leylines in the board.  Report can be viewed here:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31749.0

I was happy with the list, but I wish I had just a tad bit more for empty the warrens.  I saw it coming and should've known it would be my downfall.  Know that the tourney is over and I once again lost in top 8 :p, all I can do is learn from it.  With the expectation of gifts growing significantly, here's my latest version of the deck:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    2  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    3  Daze
    2  Misdirection
    3  Echoing Truth
    2  Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Trickbind
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Old Man of the Sea


This version officially declares war on gifts.  I cut down yet another plow and a lions to bump up on echoing truths.  The truths are pretty much solid in every match and in some cases better than plow against other creature decks.  Truth is also pretty damn good against stax.  Cutting a plow wasn't an issue for me... cutting a lions hurt like hell :p  The curve is still strong but I'd love to get it back to 15 creatures.  14 is pretty much the cutoff on threat density.  I got rid of mystical tutor because it simply wasn't doing enough.  I'd much rather have a second MisD back in, espcially with 24 blue cards maindeck now.  I went to alot of 2 of's in the sideboard for the reason of diversity.  I'm able to cover pretty much every mainstream match except for Ichorid, since it just isn't prevalent enough right now.

For the sideboard the matches are pretty straightforward-

Against gifts plows go out every time.  I've reached the conclusion that 2 dazes should probably go out as well.  You'll still have 1 maindeck, and can even board them back in on the play... but I don't think you'll need to.  Bringing in both trickbinds and chants against gifts is a total nightmare for them when combined with fow's/misD/rod.  Plus the random daze kept in could prove handy. 

Long is a slightly different approach in that plow still goes out, but dazes should probably be kept in.  I'd cut 2 plow for 2 chant and 1 echoing truth/1 daze for 2 trickbind.
Empty isn't coming in from long but they like bringing in random creatures alot as well as tinker/colossus, so you're still covering your ass with 2 ertuth left main.

Stax you want to be taking out stifles/misdirection and dazes/rods depending on the version.  5C stax has more issues with rod than 2-3 color versions.  Against workshop aggro you want to bring out rod every single time.  Echoing truth could also be boarded out here but I'm not sure it's right.  On the draw I'd side out daze before etruth, and on the play I'd probably do the opposite swap.

Bomberman is a simple -2 stifle, + 2 old man and -2 daze +2 plow.

Fish mirrors change a little bit in that there are less cards to bring in, but still a good amount.  No more threads, because they just weren't needed.  Now it's -2 stifle +2 plow, -3 rod +3 jitte, -2 daze +2 old man.  Maybe even cut the third daze for kataki... I'm not sure if the extra creature is worth it.  Kind of screws up the jitte plan.

So those are all the changes and sideboarding plans off the top of my head for the latest version I plan on running. 

Now to general responses:

If you think Savannah lions/Isamaru are bad, don't play this deck.  It isn't for you.  You can't be successful with this particular version of the deck if you have the mindset that you're above playing these cards.  You need to let the ego go and bring yourself to playing 2 power 1 drops in a format of turn 1-2 kills.  The clock is just too important as they fit on the curve perfectly.  Running stormscape or children in place of these cards simply isn't as effective for this particlar deck. 

WUB is a fine deck.  This isn't WUB.  I can't really comment on specific modifications to WUB because it's a different deck.  I know when extirpate is legal the deck gets alot better.  Better than UW fish?  Who knows.  Only time will tell.  I still think UW fish can compete just fine, otherwise I wouldn't post updates :p  I'd prefer if UWB posts stick to places other than this thread.  As mentioned in the very first post here, this thread's pretty much for UW.   

I don't think lotus petal or chrome mox are the way to go for this deck.  It's plenty fast without them, and petal only helps you get your ass kicked more by goblin Welder.  There's nothing really worth the space for those cards to push out a threat a turn earlier.  Look- a turn 1 jotun grunt.  Next turn- Hey, where'd it go?!


I've covered my thoughts true believer about 10,000 times in this thread.  Please look back 2-3 pages if interested on my thoughts on it.  In a nut-shell, I'm not personally as crazy about it as others (A.K.A. Rian :p), but it's certainly playable and I have used it previously. 

So that's where I'm at with the deck right now.  I cut a plains and haven't looked back.  I could see arguments for it going back in over a wasteland, since many multicolor mana bases have adopted to less duals and more fetches.  This could make an argument for 3 stifle, but 2 have been fine for me thus far.

That's what I got for now.  Thanks for the questions/comments as always.

- Dave Feinstein

[BreathWeapon]

What are Swords to Plowshares for? Not Gifts. Not Long. Not Dragon (bounce is for all intents and purposes the same as Swords to Plowshares) so that leaves Aggro-Workshop, Goblins or R/G Beats and Fish. I just don't see a single match up where MD Swords to Plowshares is better than MD Echoing Truth against the Tier 1 and Tier 1.5, and there are better cards to SB against Fish.

[wethepeople]

I like that you took our advice adding those two Stifles, however, why just two? Stifle being a 2'of seems too random to me, how did it work for you?

Have you considered Engineered Explosives at all? It seems to work well for clearing out Fishies, Moxen, and opposing Chalices, but most-importantly, Goblin tokens. I use it in all sorts of different Fish builds, but never have I used it in standard UW.

[krtzer]

i decided to make a list of things to meddling mage because it is one of the most important cards in this deck. I found a post a while ago where i got my information but a can't seem to find the link. You have to know what you're playing against and with all the variations of decks out there it's so hard to tell. Also remember that mage is a very situational card and it depends what is going on that that moment in the game. Now here is my list:

a. Ubastax
1.   Goblin Welder
2.   Crucible of Worlds

b. 5c Stax (any difference between the card named in the uba matchup?)
1.   crucible of worlds

c. Control Slaver (if dry slaver you would probably go for gifts)
1.   Thirst for Knowledge
2.   Tinker

d. Meandeck Gifts
1.   gift's ungiven
2.   Yawmoth's will
3.   Old man of the sea
4.   Tinker (not so much anymore)

e. Most Long Variants
1.   yawgmoth's will
2.   Dark Ritual

h. Sullivan Solution
1.   Dark Confidant
2.   Dimir Cutpurse

i. U/W Feinstein Fish 
1.      Extremely Situational

j. Worse Than Gro
1.   Vinelasher Kudzu
2.   Wild Mongrel

k. Workshop Aggro (you saw Juggernauts, etc in game one)
1.   Juggernaut
2.   Crucible of Worlds
3.   Triskelion

l. Bomberman (traditional build)
1.   trinket mage
2.   Auriok Salvagers
 
m. Oath
1.   Oath (this is a given)
2.      Mana Drain

o. Dragon X
1.   Necromancy
2.   Deep Analysis

Also if you have to blind call a mage and you see an island it's probably a good bet to name mana drain just because it's used in so many decks. Any suggestions are open to discusion and remember this is a general outline.