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Author Topic: Cloture: a split second orim's chant-y kind of thing  (Read 2022 times)
jro
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« on: September 07, 2006, 01:53:02 pm »

Well, it's always fun to make cards with the mechanics from the newest sets, so here's one:

Cloture
2W
Instant
Split Second
Player's can't play spells or abilities until the stack is empty.

This functions in a number of different ways.  One use is to protect spells you're playing from counters by playing the spell and following it up with this.  Another is to prevent any "damage on the stack" shenanigans in combat.  It can also interfere with tricky series of playing abilities.

I initially thought of this as blue, but since it prevents players from playing things, I realized white would be better.  I think the name captures the idea really well, too.

Current Wording:
Cloture
2W
Instant
Split Second
Player's can't play spells or abilities until the stack is empty.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 03:33:25 pm by jro » Logged
Darkenslight
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2006, 03:06:18 pm »

This REALLY needs until EOT adding, else it's obscene.
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parallax
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2006, 03:12:05 pm »

The turns not ending until the stack empties, anyway.

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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
Matt
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2006, 05:56:55 pm »

No, he means so that this doesn't last for every turn for the rest of the game.
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Anusien
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2006, 06:26:51 pm »

I really really really really really hate Split Second.  This needs to cost into the stratosphere anyway, like 2WW at the minimum.

This has the potential to make two or three spells uncounterable, which seems fairly ridiculous.  Creature, respond to creature with removal, respond to removal with this.  GG?
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parallax
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2006, 09:48:09 pm »

No, he means so that this doesn't last for every turn for the rest of the game.

I think you're reading this as "Player can't play spells or abilities unless the stack is empty." rather than "Players can't play spells or abilities until the stack is empty." As soon as the stack is empty, the effect ends. Not sure if that's clear enough on the card, though.

I agree with Anusien; I don't like split second, and this is kind of obscene. I don't know why people hate instants so much. I think they make the game more interesting.
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2006, 09:51:23 pm »

I really really really really really hate Split Second.  This needs to cost into the stratosphere anyway, like 2WW at the minimum.

This has the potential to make two or three spells uncounterable, which seems fairly ridiculous.  Creature, respond to creature with removal, respond to removal with this.  GG?

Me and Anus had a whole hate discussion about split second being so unnatural just because I read this card.  The mechanic for this card just makes me sick as to all of it's uses.  Casting anything good and responding with this is just ridiculous.  Yawg's Will, Ancestral, Walk, anything.
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jro
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2006, 02:09:12 am »

So can anyone suggest a clearer wording for this effect?  The idea is that once the stack empties, the effect no longer applies.

I think everyone's making this card out to be more powerful than it is.  I think it's a lot closer to unplayable than broken.  Sure, it makes whatever spells you can get on the stack before it uncounterable, but you have to invest a card and W2 to get that benefit.  I think that's an acceptable cost.  A resolved Orim's chant does basically the same thing, and for only W.  Abeyance does it as a cantrip for 1W.  Hell, it's not like anybody even plays White in Vintage besides UW Fish.  What card would come out of Fish for this?  Wouldn't you just rather have a counterspell?

As for other formats, if someone goes "Creature, removal, this" then so what?  Usually going "Creature removal" is pretty damn good anyway.  So they can't use their Remand just then?  Or they can't sac their Sakura Tribe Elder in response? Well you spent 2W and a card to make that happen, that's got to be fair.  If you cost this at 2WW then it becomes way less splashable, and way too expensive to do anything in a turn with it.  Uncounterability is worth maybe 2, Split Second is worth 1, so that's 3 mana-- not to mention that you're giving up a card.
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2006, 10:33:48 am »

The difference is that Abeyance and Orim's Chant are counterable.  This is uncounterable.  It's fairly ridiculous to cast Yawgmoth's Will, respond with Ancestral and respond with this.  There is no way an opponent can come back from this.

We don't have a good measure of what uncounterability should cost.  Personally, I think Split Second should cost more than 1, and we don't have a good guide on costing it.  However, this grants uncounterability to multiple spells, which is definitely more than 3 mana.  Orim's Chant was also circumventable by stuff like Voidmage Prodigy and and cycling Complicate.
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jro
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2006, 01:45:26 pm »

The difference is that Abeyance and Orim's Chant are counterable.  This is uncounterable.  It's fairly ridiculous to cast Yawgmoth's Will, respond with Ancestral and respond with this.  There is no way an opponent can come back from this.
If you're casting Will and Ancestral in the same turn, how are you not winning anyway?  Once a player has the 7 mana necessary to cast this with those, there's all kinds of ridiculous things they could be doing, like playing Tinker, Will, and Ancestral all in the same turn instead.  The fact that this is uncounterable compared to Orim's Chant or Abeyance really only matters if the opponent has 2 counters in hand.  If they have 1, they can counter the Chant, but then the spell they're playing goes uncountered.  Not to mention that this doesn't have the general utility of Chant (the effect ends more or less right away, it can't Fog) or the benefit of Abeyance (cantrip).

So far, the Split Second effects we've seen have added 1 to the cost of spells.  This is true for the Split Second Boomerang and Naturalize.  The spells that try to grant uncounterability like Insist or Overmaster cost C, and they cantrip.  They can be countered though, so let's say they had Split Second and cost another 1.  We're still only at 2C for the combined effect, and it doesn't cantrip.  You're spending three mana and giving your opponent a 2-for-1 to give Split Second to whatever you can get on the stack all at once.  99% of the time that seems like it would be pretty horrible.

I'd axe this card for being too narrow or situational way before I was concerned with its power level being too high.  It's so incredibly conditional, I seriously doubt you'd find a use for it in most games beyond basically making one of your spells get Split Second.
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