Time Spiral's First Restricted Card

[49 Cents]

I'm 90% sure that a deck with Magus needs to have Drains in it. Draining into one is pretty good. I also think 4 Magus is too much, especially when you are not playing with Misdirections. 3 is fine.

I really like Magus of the Jar, like the rest of the set. Now I'm definitely buying a box of Time Spiral!

[freakish777]

What are you talking about?  Why would you want to try to go off when you probably don't have any lands untapped because you just cast this thing?

Combo usually has enough mana that when they drop/Tinker Jar into play, it can go off on the spot, or it has a back up plan.  By not being able to go off on the spot you are reducing your options available to you.  If you had to choose between Jar and Magus and you intended on hardcasting them, which would you choose?  Seriously????

There's a reason Jar is restricted, and that's because it gives you the option to crack it and win on the spot assuming your mana is something like:

Mana Crypt (tapped)
Mox Jet (untapped)
Mox Ruby (tapped)
Tolarian (tapped, floating U)
City of Brass

Jar is amazing because with huge amount of mana you can bust it and just win.  If you Tinkered in the above spot you've got:

Mana Crypt (tapped)
Mox Jet
R floating from Ruby
City of Brass (tapped)
Tolarian (tapped, floating UUU)
Jar activation on the stack...

Magus is good, sure.  But not restriction worthy until proven restriction worthy.  I'm willing to bet money on it not being pre-restricted and I'm willing to bet money on it not being restricted in the next B&R announcement.

[Moxlotus]

Do I think it should be restricted pre-emptively?  No.  But that's not the question.  Wizards has shown us that they will if there is any doubt (Chrome Mox) and said they regretted not doing it with Trinisphere.\

Combo usually has enough mana that when they drop/Tinker Jar into play, it can go off on the spot, or it has a back up plan.  By not being able to go off on the spot you are reducing your options available to you.

I would say at least 75% of the time combo gets Jar into play it passes the turn.

  If you had to choose between Jar and Magus and you intended on hardcasting them, which would you choose?  Seriously????
 

What's your point?  No one is talking about replacing one.  You might as well have asked "if you had to choose between Ancestral and Brainstorm and you intended on playing one, which would you choose?"

Mana Crypt (tapped)
Mox Jet (untapped)
Mox Ruby (tapped)
Tolarian (tapped, floating U)
City of Brass

You do realize that cards win you the game in this situation right?  And I don't still don't know why you are going on about Tinker because its not like anyone is cutting it.

Why are people even comparing this to Tinker/Jar and giving a bunch of reasons why Jar is better.  No shit Sherlock.  Jar is pretty much strictly better (minus null rod and damping matrix).  News flash--no one is replacing Jar with "Jar with Legs"

[Komatteru]

News flash--no one is replacing Jar with "Jar with Legs"

The general point of this discussion is not whether this is better than Jar, or "Will this replace Jar?" but whether in conjunction with Jar and other cards is too powerful.  Is getting more Jar effects unbalancing and too powerful (in other words, what does that mean for this card)?


One thing.
No more decklists.  Seriously, this discussion is not about how to build Magus.dec, only whether the card itself is abusable, and the general sorts of decks that might want to use it.  I'm going to edit out the next decklist I see posted because all they do is detract from discussions and clutter up the thread.[/b]

[freakish777]

I would say at least 75% of the time combo gets Jar into play it passes the turn.

My point is that the other 25% of the time is why Jar is restricted.  If Jar had "Play this ability only if it has been in play since the beginning of the turn" appended to it, it would still be good, but I don't think it would have been restricted.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, no one has gone over why you would want to play Magus.dec over MDGifts, the likelyhood that you can get Magus into play on turn 2 is reasonable, but it isn't guaranteed, and you still have to wait until turn three to go off, which isn't guaranteed either because it is a Draw 7. At the turn 3/4 mark, your opponent gets Mana Drain, so aren't you better off just playing Combo-Control like MDGifts?

I just don't get it, this isn't replacing Grim Tutor in Long, it isn't going to replace Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister or Windfall in Long, and it isn't going to increase your threath density with out removing acceleration or bounce. So what is the worst thing that could happen, a couple of these things could show up in Grim Long or Pitch Long? Most people don't even play with the 4th Grim Tutor, and I would play with a 4th Grim Tutor before I would play with this.

[dicemanx]

No more decklists.  Seriously, this discussion is not about how to build Magus.dec, only whether the card itself is abusable, and the general sorts of decks that might want to use it.  I'm going to edit out the next decklist I see posted because all they do is detract from discussions and clutter up the thread.

Actually, I think decklists are a good idea. It was nice to see what specifically people have in mind, because the discussion about the strength of the card will not reach any satisfactory conclusion. We need testing, and what better way to start than with some proposed lists.

[Moxlotus]

You can't just throw this card in any deck.  Its a Flagship.  This is a card you build your deck around to abuse it.  The card is begging to be broken and I have a feeling someone will do it.  The card is blue.  It draws you 7 cards.  It lets you untap before you get those cards.  If you don't think someone can break the hell out of it you're naive.

Ok, no one has gone over why you would want to play Magus.dec over MDGifts

This is what I said when I first saw Gifts.  Why would you play Gifts when you can just play Intuition???  I learned from my mistake and I won't repeat it again.  As I said, you can't just throw it in a deck, you must build your deck around it.  MDG didn't develop overnight--it took like 5 or so Gifts decks before that monster showed up.  If Magus is left unrestricted it will fuel an utterly stupid good deck--it just might take a bit.

I have a few ideas on how to build around this guy, but I'm not gonna waste my time testing unless it isn't restricted.

[BreathWeapon]

You can't compare Gifts Ungiven to Intuition in the same manner as Gifts Ungiven to Magus of the Jar, I wasn't speaking on the two cards in a vacuum; I was speaking on the general strategies behind the two cards. Gifts Ungiven is a combo-control based Tendrils deck that uses DSC as a back up plan, and it can either put itself in a position to win or win on turns 1 thru 4. Maguse of the Jar is slower than that, being cast on turn 2 and activated on turn 3 with no guarantee of winning the game, it has less disruption and removal, less tutoring and it can never adjust its roles. It just seems that on a strategic and power scale that the bar this deck has to meet is MDGifts, and I don't see it happening, which makes me question whether or not this is a flagship card. That's not to say that people can't win with it, broken is as broken does, but that doesn't meen it is the most efficient card for the job.

You also are infinately more prone to mana denail with Magus of the Jar than you are with Gifts Ungiven, 3UU is hard as hell to get when you are under a Null Rod.

[Whatever Works]

This card used properly will almost never ever be hardcast. For 5 mana I would almost rather play something dumb like dream halls or future sight, or leave mana open for FoW etc.

[Katzby]

You can't chain through them like draw7.dec wants to do, so building a deck around him without concordant crossroads is not going to fit the long template well.

This is pretty minor, but don't forget about the card Mass Hysteria.  Surely, if any deck were to use either of these cards (and I doubt any would), it would be Mass Hysteria.  It allows you to stay in Red so that you can also use Wheel of Fortune.  There are so few problematic opposing World Enchantments that Concordant Crossroad's "other" ability probably won't be the least bit useful.


Katzby

[MuzzonoAmi]

The card is absurd. Is it worse than Jar? Yeah, it is.  What people are missing is that even assuming we activate Jar on the spot, this is Necro to Jar's Baragin - and I don't think anyone is idiotic enough to assert that Necro should be unrestricted. With 4 of these, it becomes justifyable to run multiple Reanimates in combo to cheat Mangus into play. This is the most "derf, derf, I win" card since Miind's Desire.

[diopter]

With 4 of these, it becomes justifyable to run multiple Reanimates in combo to cheat Mangus into play.

If you want to reanimate Magus of the Jar as the primary way to cheat him into play, you probably might as well be playing Dragon.

[PipOC]

With 4 of these, it becomes justifyable to run multiple Reanimates in combo to cheat Mangus into play.

If you want to reanimate Magus of the Jar as the primary way to cheat him into play, you probably might as well be playing Dragon.

Not if you're using corpse dance and shallow grave.  This approach dodges all of the non-graveyard hate that dragon faces and has a few more advantages in that it's not that awful to hardcast this guy, and it lets you play with rituals and will, giving you the stupid amount of I win hands associated with that.  It has several advantages over traditional tendrils combo as well, it gets to play with bazaar, which is fantastic against stax, and makes card disadvantage tutors that much better.  Your late game threats are cheaper as well.

[Storm]

JD, I don't think this card will be restricted, at least not immediately.

This card is clearly solid, but I don't think it is actually a tipping point card against decks like MDG for combo.   I don't think it swings the match in combo's favor.   He's an enromously juicy Drain target and can't be cast turn one off Rit, Rit like Jar or Tinkered out like Jar on turn one.   

[Whatever Works]

With 4 of these, it becomes justifyable to run multiple Reanimates in combo to cheat Mangus into play.

If you want to reanimate Magus of the Jar as the primary way to cheat him into play, you probably might as well be playing Dragon.

Not if you're using corpse dance and shallow grave.  This approach dodges all of the non-graveyard hate that dragon faces and has a few more advantages in that it's not that awful to hardcast this guy, and it lets you play with rituals and will, giving you the stupid amount of I win hands associated with that.  It has several advantages over traditional tendrils combo as well, it gets to play with bazaar, which is fantastic against stax, and makes card disadvantage tutors that much better.  Your late game threats are cheaper as well.

I new someone would think of my idea eventually. The deck w/those 2 reanimate spells is redicules, and is just plane better then dragon, b/c with haste you can activate w/o having to worry about dragon losing to hate, and then the sheer abuse of drawing/discarding more cards in such a 1 sided affect is just redicules.

8 tinker deck in essense... damn pipOC... By andy probascos request I deleted the 3rd overall post on this thread trying to keep that idea away from people... However, I know at least 2 other major teams had been talking about it on message boards.

[Dxfiler]

I new someone would think of my idea eventually. The deck w/those 2 reanimate spells is redicules, and is just plane better then dragon, b/c with haste you can activate w/o having to worry about dragon losing to hate, and then the sheer abuse of drawing/discarding more cards in such a 1 sided affect is just redicules.

Er Kyle... no offense but your idea was obvious.  Shallow Grave and Corpse dance aren't that hard to figure out with this card... and I still don't think that justifies building an entire deck around it at this time.  Both cards have been mentioned in this thread already, some even in the same post *cough* :p


- Dave Feinstein

[Jank Golem]

Not if you're using corpse dance and shallow grave.  This approach dodges all of the non-graveyard hate that dragon faces

Graveyard hate is the main hate that hits dragon. It dodges STP and bounce like you said, but is still hit by Tormod's Crypt, Leyline, Root Maze and Stifle. If you plan on reanimating this guy you are better off playing dragon in most cases. It may have potential being hardcasted, but I think the mana cost and summoning sickness will keep it from seeing play.

[Moxlotus]

Not if you're using corpse dance and shallow grave.  This approach dodges all of the non-graveyard hate that dragon faces

Graveyard hate is the main hate that hits dragon. It dodges STP and bounce like you said, but is still hit by Tormod's Crypt, Leyline, Root Maze and Stifle. If you plan on reanimating this guy you are better off playing dragon in most cases. It may have potential being hardcasted, but I think the mana cost and summoning sickness will keep it from seeing play.

Unfortunately for Dragon, it doesn't get to play with nutty spells like Dark Rituals and Draw 7s to randomly win games too.  There's really no reason not to play this guy over Dragon.

[jcb193]

The card is absurd. Is it worse than Jar? Yeah, it is.  What people are missing is that even assuming we activate Jar on the spot, this is Necro to Jar's Baragin - and I don't think anyone is idiotic enough to assert that Necro should be unrestricted. With 4 of these, it becomes justifyable to run multiple Reanimates in combo to cheat Mangus into play. This is the most "derf, derf, I win" card since Miind's Desire.

I think this is the thought most people are missing on this thread.  Objectively, 1 Mangus may or may not be better than one Memory Jar; but 4 Mangus is a totally different concept. 

This is not a card that you consider substituting in for a jar or a windfall.  This is a card you build a deck around. 

[Jank Golem]

Not if you're using corpse dance and shallow grave.  This approach dodges all of the non-graveyard hate that dragon faces

Graveyard hate is the main hate that hits dragon. It dodges STP and bounce like you said, but is still hit by Tormod's Crypt, Leyline, Root Maze and Stifle. If you plan on reanimating this guy you are better off playing dragon in most cases. It may have potential being hardcasted, but I think the mana cost and summoning sickness will keep it from seeing play.

Unfortunately for Dragon, it doesn't get to play with nutty spells like Dark Rituals and Draw 7s to randomly win games too. There's really no reason not to play this guy over Dragon.

The main advantage I see over dragon is that Magnus is much easier to hardcast. The reanimating plan makes no sense though. Why not just play dragon, bazaar and an animate in combo? Then you win the game for sure when animate resolves. It can be hardcasted, I see that as the one viable way to play Magnus.

[PipOC]

The main advantage I see over dragon is that Magnus is much easier to hardcast. The reanimating plan makes no sense though. Why not just play dragon, bazaar and an animate in combo? Then you win the game for sure when animate resolves. It can be hardcasted, I see that as the one viable way to play Magnus.

Because you get a much higher density of broken cards with this approach.  It may turn out that it's worse than dragon, but not testing it is a terrible idea.

[BreathWeapon]

I take it back, this card is broken. I just tried using it in 1.5 with Careful Study, Intuition and the Shallow Grave and Corpse Dance route, and it is nothing short of amazing. You lose some of the restricted tutors and acceleration, but what you lose in brokenness you make up in synergy. Since posting lists has become tabboo in this thread, I'll post the list in developmental.

The reason you play this deck over Dragon is obvious, you can play around Tormod's Crypt easier with 8 instant reanimate effects, if you use reanimate effects you are immune to creature removal, if you hardcast it you don't lose your board if your opponent kills your creature, you don't have to play with Bazaar of Baghdad, you can hardcast your creature, you have more broken plays (Tinker, Memory Jar, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and Yawgmoth's Will) and you can just go for plan B with Intuition for three restricted bombs (Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence and either Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker).

I have never had so much fun playing with a combo deck ever, and this guy is far from broken with Leyline of the Void and Pithing Needle in people's SBs. Magus of the Jar and Wipe Away are such awesome, awesome cards for Vintage, way to go R&D.

[The Atog Lord]

Breath Weapon, you forgot one more key advantage that Magus has over Dragon. WIth Dragon, if you just get the combo, the game is a draw. If you want to win, you need a Bazaar, or a way to turn infinite mana into something scary (like Cunning Wish or Read the Runes). Thus, Dragon is really a 2.5 card combo. WIth Magus, if you construct your deck so that drawing seven new cards is a win, then she is actually a two card combo and doesn't need a support card to turn a draw into a win.

[BreathWeapon]

Yeah, that's a good point.

Games 2 and 3 are a little frustrating with this deck, between Red Elemental Blast and Leyline of the Void a control deck can really put your nuts in a vice; you are put in a position where you have to SB in Wipe Out to take care of the Leyline of the Void, and then don't have any counter protection for when you start to chain your Jars.

Has anybody found any good way to play around Leyline of the Void and Red Elemental Blast? Add the Tropical Island and the Xantid Swarm in the SB? Atleast it has some synergy with the animate effects as a really screw ball counterspell.

[The Atog Lord]

Leylines are annoying. They're handled by bounce spells, though.

As for REB. I'm not sure that's such a big deal. Having Haste means that you can Reanimate the Magus and use her before REB can do anything.

[Hi-Val]

Another thing to remember is that you are handing an opponent several new full hands of cards. I could easily see a control deck drawing into 2+ counters during your combo. At least with Dragon, the opponent doesn't draw extra cards until they've lost.

Jury's still out on this card though.

[BreathWeapon]

Leylines are annoying. They're handled by bounce spells, though.

As for REB. I'm not sure that's such a big deal. Having Haste means that you can Reanimate the Magus and use her before REB can do anything.

Yes, REB is useless against the haste from reanimate effects, but it does give you 4 additional counters or creature removal against hard cast Magus of the Jar, combined with Leyline of the Void that can be a problem because you are cut off from both of your avenues of attack. Sure, you can use Wipe Out to remove Leyline of the Void, but you are defenseless against counterspells once you begin your Jar chain.

I guess your only real choice is to board in Xantid Swarms for Fore of Will and then board out business or acceleration (Intuition, Corpse Dance, Swamp) for 3 Wipe Out, so you can Intuition for them.

[chrissss]

I havent seen anyone talk about the potential dangers of megrim / tendrils decks using the extra 4 magnus cards. I am not too sure how this could work in T1, but iI remember my old Jar/megrim deck to be very fast. With tendrils, this deck can be rather good imo.

One thing I hate about the magnus, is that it wil perform very badly against random T1 decks. Sligh, goblins, control etc. The deck might be really good using 4 magnus, but then it will loose to random decks, which is unacceptable. ( in my meta there is a lot of random crap, so thats why I thought of this)

From all cards, I think there are others that will be restricted sooner than the magnus.

[L_O_L]

I havent seen anyone talk about the potential dangers of megrim / tendrils decks using the extra 4 magnus cards. I am not too sure how this could work in T1, but iI remember my old Jar/megrim deck to be very fast. With tendrils, this deck can be rather good imo.

One thing I hate about the magnus, is that it wil perform very badly against random T1 decks. Sligh, goblins, control etc. The deck might be really good using 4 magnus, but then it will loose to random decks, which is unacceptable. ( in my meta there is a lot of random crap, so thats why I thought of this)

From all cards, I think there are others that will be restricted sooner than the magnus.

There's no set deck archetype on this card, but already it's "performing very badly against random T1 decks" ?  How ?  This card's ability is broken, and subsequently a broken deck will be built around it.  Check the Vintage Improvement forum for an example decklist.  How does Sligh come close to defeating that deck ?  Lightning Bolt ?  You animate the MAGUS with Haste so I don't see that as a possible solution.  Combo trumps random crappy aggro decks, I don't see any reason why this deck shouldn't.  You don't even have to take this into account in a competitive environment so I don't see this as a decisive argument against Magus of the Jar.

Megrim is plain bad, for reasons pointed out above.  There's no reason to include it in any deck because it sucks and it's not going to win you games you don't win otherwise.