Magic Without the 4 of Rule

[wethepeople]

not even Force of Will can stop this list:

MD:

60x Rocket Powered Turbo Slug (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=35064)

no SB yet.

//wtp,

[jro]

Either Lotus-Ancestral or Lotus-Desire is the best deck in that format, and it's not very interesting aside from arguing which of the two is more consistent against Forces.

Lotus-Ancestral or Lotus-Desire might be "unbeatable" on the play.  I don't see that that's neccessarily the case, especially with Time Spiral bringing Gemstone Caverns into the format, meaning that Turn 0 Orim's Chant or Stifle is possible.  The challenge, like with the restricteds in place, is how do you win on your own Turn 1 without losing on your opponent's Turn 1.  So Lotus - Ancestral - Force seems pretty good, because you only need to resolve 1 Lotus to cast many Ancestrals, so you can have a ratio like Ancestral > Force > Lotus.  Lotus - Desire seems like maybe it would have a tougher time against allFoW.dec, because you need to resolve 2 Lotuses in order to cast Desire.  So winning on Turn 1 through 2 Forces means having 4+ Lotus in your hand.  To get that consistently, you'd need probably something like 40 Lotus 20 Desire.

But the format with restricteds is certainly more interesting.  Maybe running Therapy + Nether Spirit would be a good way to effectively up your number of Therapies.

Also, it's too bad that Commandeer doesn't let you take control of the Storm trigger.

And Force of Will totally beats Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.dec, because RPTS.dec can only put 7 Slugs into play, so any deck that can play 1 FoW can live to its own Turn 1, where it can probably win.

[parallax]

Either Lotus-Ancestral or Lotus-Desire is the best deck in that format, and it's not very interesting aside from arguing which of the two is more consistent against Forces.

Lotus-Ancestral or Lotus-Desire might be "unbeatable" on the play.  I don't see that that's neccessarily the case, especially with Time Spiral bringing Gemstone Caverns into the format, meaning that Turn 0 Orim's Chant or Stifle is possible.  The challenge, like with the restricteds in place, is how do you win on your own Turn 1 without losing on your opponent's Turn 1.  So Lotus - Ancestral - Force seems pretty good, because you only need to resolve 1 Lotus to cast many Ancestrals, so you can have a ratio like Ancestral > Force > Lotus.  Lotus - Desire seems like maybe it would have a tougher time against allFoW.dec, because you need to resolve 2 Lotuses in order to cast Desire.  So winning on Turn 1 through 2 Forces means having 4+ Lotus in your hand.  To get that consistently, you'd need probably something like 40 Lotus 20 Desire.

But the format with restricteds is certainly more interesting.  Maybe running Therapy + Nether Spirit would be a good way to effectively up your number of Therapies.

Also, it's too bad that Commandeer doesn't let you take control of the Storm trigger.

And Force of Will totally beats Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.dec, because RPTS.dec can only put 7 Slugs into play, so any deck that can play 1 FoW can live to its own Turn 1, where it can probably win.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lotus-Ancestral-Force is a lock in that format. Gemstone Cavern-Chant is almost strictly worse than Force of Will, as it costs three cards rather than two.

RPTS.dec still does pretty well on the draw, as eight Slugs requires three Forces (or Force + Foil) to beat.

I'm most interested in developing the combo deck right now, as that will dictate the other points of the metagame polygon (triangle?). The combo deck will dictate how the control deck is built, which will dictate how aggro or prison is built. Right now, the combo deck has to try to beat a 50% Force of Will ratio with an AK draw engine. The FoW deck is pretty much able to counter one spell a turn for the first 7-8 turns when the AK engine takes complete control. In the combo match-up, Intuition -> Sphere of Resistance or Rule of Law could also cause you some problems. Basically, what is the most disruption a combo deck in this format can run and still win turn one consistently? (The combo deck doesn't have to win turn one against control, though.)

Do we take into account the lack of information in these games? If I'm a combo deck playing against a control deck, and my Cabal Therapy is Forced, I don't know whether I'm playing against FoW.dec or a combo deck with Forces. I have no way to know if I can afford to pass the turn. This could make it a lot harder for combo to beat control, as it would have to cast enough disruption on turn one to know it was going against control or a combo deck that's full on Forces, but low on gas, rather than spreading the disruption out over several turns to get best use out of its permanent mana sources.

[herbig]

Rocket Powered Turbo Slug isn't actually played during the turn it comes into play.  I'm not even sure you can counter it when you pay the mana cost for it, it isn't very clear.  TurboSlug would definately lose to Pyrokinesis though.

[Hi-Val]

In an informed format, I think

Cabal Therapy
Dark Rit
Swamps
Nether Spirit

might work. I think Therapy would be really good for hamstringing an opponent, but I don't know if it beats FOW dec. Each therapy you cast requires them to lose two cards. Hmm. Maybe I'm stuck on Nether Spirit but it looks good, especially in tandem with Therapy. You can also Therapy yourself to pitch a Spirit.

I think RPTS is uncounterable if you superhaste it, since you're putting it directly into play from your hand. It looks like Aether Vial.

[wethepeople]

"You may put this card into play from your hand, tapped and attacking"

nope, you cant Force Slugs. Super Haste is very similar to Ninjutsu, just 3243595 times better. i think only Stifle can stop me.

What about that card that read "If you have 200 or more cards in your library, you win the game." Why not just make a deck of 150 Lotuses and like a 60 of those?

//wtp.

[parallax]

"You may put this card into play from your hand, tapped and attacking"

nope, you cant Force Slugs. Super Haste is very similar to Ninjutsu, just 3243595 times better. i think only Stifle can stop me.

What about that card that read "If you have 200 or more cards in your library, you win the game." Why not just make a deck of 150 Lotuses and like a 60 of those?

//wtp.

RPTS can't be Stifled. Its ability doesn't use the stack. You can declare it as an attacker while it's in your hand. Then, it's automatically put into play.

Lotus is restricted. Battle of Wits doesn't win until your second turn. So you lose to any deck that can counter your Battle of Wits, or any deck that can win on its first turn.

Nether Spirit.dec looks interesting, but I think I would replace Nether Spirit with something like Living Wish or Worldly Tutor. It gives you more options and prevents you from ending up with another creature in the graveyard when you don't want it.

[Hi-Val]

The benefit of Nether Spirit is that you never have to actually cast it, and you can always go up to 8 cards and pitch it. I think it's a lot stronger than stuff like Factory because of interactions with cards like Therapy.

I think the best deck is the one that can effectively Overmaster some Therapies out or be able to Dark Rit into multiple ones. It probably scoops to AK.dec though...

[Anusien]

I'm curious what decks would be better without the 4 of rule.  Current banned/restricted lists for whatever format, but there's no maximum card limit.

Lotus is restricted in T1.  So is Ancestral, and Desire.

I like the Cabal Therapy idea, but it would lose to all the combo decks on the play.
By the way, Belcher might be better than Tendrils.  Pithing Needle seems like a nonfactor, but you only need a few cards to combo off, so if you fizzle you can go off incredibly easily next turn.  And you can double your library size and avoid flipping over lands if you don't want them.

[parallax]

So, we have the turn one combo decks: Belcher and/or Tendrils. These will beat any deck they play against except Fow.dec if they are on the play.

The optimal build of these decks will be either: the build that has the best percentage against Fow.dec or the build that can best weather turn one hate from other decks.

Can a combo build put up a reasonable percentage against Fow.dec?

Do combo decks have room for disruption against first turn Spheres, Chalices, or Therapies?

If you're building a non-combo deck, do you include a combo-stopper to drop turn one or do you just shore up your percentage against Fow.dec?