[New Card Discussion] Children of Korlis

[brianpk80]

Erhm, the point is that you have to draw two before the combo player attempts to go off.
I don't find myself swarming in copies just because i got a full set of them in my deck

Actually, you don't need more than one of these to stop a storm player from going off.  Coupling the Children with a Meddling Mage, Null Rod, True Believer, Wasteland/Strip Mine, Chalice of the Void (should always be @1 v. combo), Voidmage Prodigy, Hide/Seek, or any of the other nasty tricks Fish packs, not to mention accumulating counters and Stifles, should be enough to throw a wrench into combo's plans.  Fish is combo's worst matchup right now.  Conventional wisdom might suggest that Stax is worse, but all you do when playing Stax is sit around until the right moment to Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall at EoT and then win.  It's much easier than playing around counters and all of Fish's other disruption.  Children of Korlis isn't going to make it any easier for storm.  

-BPK

 

[zeus-online]

Ok, let's say that you're facing a tendrils with 20 damage. And you have 2 of these guys on the table. You sac one of them when you're down to 2, gain 18 life, suffer the last 2 damage, and then sac the other. Does the second one give you 20 life, so that you'll end up to 38? Or just 2 life, so that you'll end up to 20?

I highly doubt you will get out two at once though, it would be nice if that did however happen.

Why? A 1cc 4-off isn't that unlikely to get out, it seems..

Especially with Vials.

Was actually just replying to this post.

Oh and if combo really is fish's best match-up (which i don't disagree in) then why even add this bugger? No need for overkill

/Zeus

[Guli]

Ok, let's say that you're facing a tendrils with 20 damage. And you have 2 of these guys on the table. You sac one of them when you're down to 2, gain 18 life, suffer the last 2 damage, and then sac the other. Does the second one give you 20 life, so that you'll end up to 38? Or just 2 life, so that you'll end up to 20?

I highly doubt you will get out two at once though, it would be nice if that did however happen.

Why? A 1cc 4-off isn't that unlikely to get out, it seems..

Especially with Vials.

Was actually just replying to this post.

Oh and if combo really is fish's best match-up (which i don't disagree in) then why even add this bugger? No need for overkill

/Zeus

Valid point. But i think the real question is what 1 drops you prefer. There aren't many white 1 drops out there that have a neat ability.

[Implacable]

Ok, let's say that you're facing a tendrils with 20 damage. And you have 2 of these guys on the table. You sac one of them when you're down to 2, gain 18 life, suffer the last 2 damage, and then sac the other. Does the second one give you 20 life, so that you'll end up to 38? Or just 2 life, so that you'll end up to 20?

I highly doubt you will get out two at once though, it would be nice if that did however happen.

Why? A 1cc 4-off isn't that unlikely to get out, it seems..

Especially with Vials.

Was actually just replying to this post.

Oh and if combo really is fish's best match-up (which i don't disagree in) then why even add this bugger? No need for overkill

/Zeus

Valid point. But i think the real question is what 1 drops you prefer. There aren't many white 1 drops out there that have a neat ability.

That is the key thing to remember.  My main problem with U/W Fish right now is that it simply has no way to get more cards than 1 per turn.  To counteract this, I'm now using Ninja of the Deep Hours in lieu of Brainstorm.  However, because of how difficult that makes it for me to get Legendary cards out of my hand, I now want to cut Isamaru's for the Children.

[zeus-online]

Yeah thats what i see fish variants loosing to. Even if they win the first counter-war, they often loose the second one because they couldn't refill their hand fast enough.

/Zeus

[Guli]

Ok, let's say that you're facing a tendrils with 20 damage. And you have 2 of these guys on the table. You sac one of them when you're down to 2, gain 18 life, suffer the last 2 damage, and then sac the other. Does the second one give you 20 life, so that you'll end up to 38? Or just 2 life, so that you'll end up to 20?

I highly doubt you will get out two at once though, it would be nice if that did however happen.

Why? A 1cc 4-off isn't that unlikely to get out, it seems..

Especially with Vials.

Was actually just replying to this post.

Oh and if combo really is fish's best match-up (which i don't disagree in) then why even add this bugger? No need for overkill

/Zeus

Valid point. But i think the real question is what 1 drops you prefer. There aren't many white 1 drops out there that have a neat ability.

That is the key thing to remember.  My main problem with U/W Fish right now is that it simply has no way to get more cards than 1 per turn.  To counteract this, I'm now using Ninja of the Deep Hours in lieu of Brainstorm.  However, because of how difficult that makes it for me to get Legendary cards out of my hand, I now want to cut Isamaru's for the Children.

4 Children (tendrils,aggro,...)
4 Stormscape Ap. (oath,tinker)

8 1 drops should do it

4 meddling mage (best fish creature)
4 Jötun Grunt (clock,grave hate)
4 Ninja (draw,keeps grunt alive)
3 True Believer (tendrils,duress,gifts)

In my opinion fish decks can go WWu and have all the means to win games. The only loss is Dark confidant but that is being replaced by ninja and decent 1 drops. Take your pick

[Dr_Tongue]

38 is the answer that you're looking for.  Yes, that is ridiculous.  Good luck getting high enough to storm that out!

Actually my Sensei Sensei T1 deck that I placed 5th in an event locally here does infinite damage via the 2x Sensei Tops and Helm with Tendrils for the kill (cost of BB for the kill when the smoke and carnage clears)

[UR]

38 is the answer that you're looking for.  Yes, that is ridiculous.  Good luck getting high enough to storm that out!

Actually my Sensei Sensei T1 deck that I placed 5th in an event locally here does infinite damage via the 2x Sensei Tops and Helm with Tendrils for the kill (cost of BB for the kill when the smoke and carnage clears)

And you'll die to another great fish-card; Null Rod. Ofcourse there is an answer for everything but that is kinda going around in circles. It takes nothing away from Children of Korlis versus Long or TPS.

[brianpk80]

Oh and if combo really is fish's best match-up (which i don't disagree in) then why even add this bugger? No need for overkill

Combo is not Fish's best matchup.  Fish is Combo's worst matchup.  There's a difference.  Well piloted combo is probably the strongest deck in the format right now and no deck would claim it is their easiest match.  Fish and Stax are the only decks with a high probability of making Long do what it doesn't want to do, namely, to pay attention to something on the board.  But unlike Stax, Fish can protect its threats with counters and it wouldn't roll over and die to Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall.  If I were playing Long, I would much rather face Stax than Fish.  And by Fish, I mean a UW or Ubw variant with Meddlers and other disruptive creatures, not anything with Cloud of Fairies and Grim Lavamancers. 

The reason Fish would add this card is because it costs W and is much more likely to hit the table than Mage or Believer who cost UW and WW.  Every turn is critical v. Storm and we all know that.

-BPK 

 

[wethepeople]

i personally think Fish has a good matchup versus Combo with access to almost everything. It's got, CotV, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Strip effects, Extract, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Stifle, Hide/Seek, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Root Maze, Trickbind, True Believer, and now Children of Korlis.

i think that Fish is set on Combo hate, and i must admit as a Fish player, i do look forward to such a matchup.

[brianpk80]

i personally think Fish has a good matchup versus Combo with access to almost everything. It's got, CotV, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Strip effects, Extract, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Stifle, Hide/Seek, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Root Maze, Trickbind, True Believer, and now Children of Korlis.

i think that Fish is set on Combo hate, and i must admit as a Fish player, i do look forward to such a matchup.

Definitely; combo is a decent matchup for Fish.  But I think the best matchup is Meandeck Gifts.  It's ridiculously easy to hate out.  Once you neutralize the Colossus threat (which barring Gifts' god hands, any Fish player should be well prepared for this), Gifts basically becomes nothing more than a watered down version of storm combo, with a lot less resiliance. 

As touted as MdGifts is, remember we are talking about a deck that basically scoops to a Tormod's Crypt + Chain of Vapor or Swords to Plowshares.   All the Pyroclasms in the world can't save the day then. 

-BPK

[Kowal]

i personally think Fish has a good matchup versus Combo with access to almost everything. It's got, CotV, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Strip effects, Extract, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Stifle, Hide/Seek, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Root Maze, Trickbind, True Believer, and now Children of Korlis.

i think that Fish is set on Combo hate, and i must admit as a Fish player, i do look forward to such a matchup.

Definitely; combo is a decent matchup for Fish.  But I think the best matchup is Meandeck Gifts.  It's ridiculously easy to hate out.  Once you neutralize the Colossus threat (which barring Gifts' god hands, any Fish player should be well prepared for this), Gifts basically becomes nothing more than a watered down version of storm combo, with a lot less resiliance. 

As touted as MdGifts is, remember we are talking about a deck that basically scoops to a Tormod's Crypt + Chain of Vapor or Swords to Plowshares.   All the Pyroclasms in the world can't save the day then. 

-BPK

Keep in mind, personally, I always thought (and still do think) Meandeck Gifts is bad.  However, I still find your comment laughable.

Any Gifts player worth their weight in salt should be able to find counters to keep your junk like Chain of Vapor or Plow away from the big man.  In addition, you're neglecting to consider that three moxes, Rebuild, and a wish is lethal, with or without Tormod's Crypt.

You may run 6-8 counter slots and 2-5 answers for Colossus.  They run 11+ counters, with 6+ methods of finding them, and a playset of random busted tutors that can end the game no matter what the board looks like.  Most Meandeck Gifts builds run a very high number of basic islands, making your mana denial component less than stellar.  I can believe you like the matchup, given it's difficult deck to pilot optimally and its engine is easily disrupted...  However, you seem to be making quite a different claim and that claim is way off base.

[wethepeople]

i personally think Fish has a good matchup versus Combo with access to almost everything. It's got, CotV, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Strip effects, Extract, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Stifle, Hide/Seek, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Root Maze, Trickbind, True Believer, and now Children of Korlis.

i think that Fish is set on Combo hate, and i must admit as a Fish player, i do look forward to such a matchup.

Definitely; combo is a decent matchup for Fish.  But I think the best matchup is Meandeck Gifts.  It's ridiculously easy to hate out.  Once you neutralize the Colossus threat (which barring Gifts' god hands, any Fish player should be well prepared for this), Gifts basically becomes nothing more than a watered down version of storm combo, with a lot less resiliance. 

As touted as MdGifts is, remember we are talking about a deck that basically scoops to a Tormod's Crypt + Chain of Vapor or Swords to Plowshares.   All the Pyroclasms in the world can't save the day then. 

-BPK

Any Gifts player worth their weight in salt should be able to find counters to keep your junk like Chain of Vapor or Plow away from the big man.  In addition, you're neglecting to consider that three moxes, Rebuild, and a wish is lethal, with or without Tormod's Crypt.

Well Wipe Away pretty much stops their DSC kill, so they cant compete with that one.

[brianpk80]

Keep in mind, personally, I always thought (and still do think) Meandeck Gifts is bad.  However, I still find your comment laughable.

Any Gifts player worth their weight in salt should be able to find counters to keep your junk like Chain of Vapor or Plow away from the big man.  In addition, you're neglecting to consider that three moxes, Rebuild, and a wish is lethal, with or without Tormod's Crypt.

You may run 6-8 counter slots and 2-5 answers for Colossus.  They run 11+ counters, with 6+ methods of finding them, and a playset of random busted tutors that can end the game no matter what the board looks like.  Most Meandeck Gifts builds run a very high number of basic islands, making your mana denial component less than stellar.  I can believe you like the matchup, given it's difficult deck to pilot optimally and its engine is easily disrupted...  However, you seem to be making quite a different claim and that claim is way off base.

You might disagree with what I'm saying, but I don't think there's anything so extreme about my comment as to make it "laughable." I stated, somewhat hyperbolically, that Gifts scoops to Tormod's Crypt and some combination of artifact creature bounce/removal.  (I said it "basically" scoops to Crypt + Removal, there being an implicit assumption that these cards operate in tandem with the standard Fish ensemble of disruption.) You essentially responded that my comment was entirely off base because Gifts will miraculously outcounter your reponses to Tinker (which, in a glorious feat of fortune, they must have topdecked since Gifts Ungiven won't fetch it due to the Crypt), then outcounter your DSC removal, and even if they don't, they will beat you down with Rebuild and the 3 moxes that they've been holding in their hand this whole time (and yet somehow still functioning) followed by a timely Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony.  Let me guess: this is all going to happen on the third turn?     

Let's analyze this. 
Fish player going first, seeing the following opening hand:

Polluted Delta, Tormod's Crypt, AEther Vial, Daze, Chain of Vapor, Wasteland, Dark Confidant

Nothing too unusual about this opening.  You play the Delta, fetch a Sea, and cast the Vial to solicit counters.  If they FoW it, you make a judgment call based on how many creatures you pack and what degree of disruption they carry to determine whether you Daze the FoW.  I would probably do it, since I run Voidmage, Bouncer, and Meddling Mage and I like freeing them from the threat of counters.  Regardless of whether it resolves, you play the Crypt next.  If they FoW that too, then they start the game with 4 cards on the draw and you sitting on a Wasteland and a Chain of Vapor for the miraculous "Island, Mana Crypt, Tinker" they have a slim chance of drawing.  If not, then they begin the game with an entire arsenal of graveyard abuse deactivated and you having an impending free access to Confidants, Bouncers, Meddling Mages, Jotun Grunts, Voidmage Prodigies, and perhaps even True Believers if they are included.  Sure, there is a slim chance that they will draw into salvation, perhaps Ancestral Recall into Lotus, Tinker, Misdirection but more likely the Gifts player is going to be fiddling around with Merchant Scrolls, casting half-baked Gifts with the net result of removing his most busted cards from the game, and holding onto useless Mana Drains until the game ends for him within five or six turns.

My point is that Meandeck Gifts has two very narrow paths to victory: the big man and graveyard abuse (Ok, and once in a blue moon a million Moxen and Rebuild, followed by Burning Wish).  If you start the game equipped to handle both, then with the little added pressure you're bound to draw, it is very unlikely for Meandeck Gifts to win. 

Brassman Gifts on the other hand, while still having those same narrow paths to victory, is much stronger against hate based strategies.  They are still generally favorable matchups for a well designed Fish build, and at any rate, they are significantly better matchups than Pitch Long. 

-BPK

[zeus-online]

I'm starting to wonder if you've ever played against MDGifts?

Setting up a rebuild - Tendrils kill isn't nearly as hard as you seem to think, also, i personally only play tinker/DSC because of the random "oops i win".

/Zeus

[Implacable]

I'm force to agree with Zeus here.  Brian, have you actually played against Meandeck Gifts?  While it is true that it only has two routes to victory, it does a phenomenal job of protecting those routes with countermagic while disrupting its opponent and getting decent card advantage with draw spells.  The deck is very versatile, and you can't just dismiss it by saying, "Well, I play Crypt+Swords, so GG!  Lolz."  Do you think it won at GenCon by being fragile?

[freakish777]

You all missed the most broken play with this guy...

Turn 1 Scrubland, Children.
Turn 2 Swamp, Ritual, LICH, Lose 20, Sac Children, replace 20 life gain with drawing 20 cards.

[brianpk80]

I'm starting to wonder if you've ever played against MDGifts?

Setting up a rebuild - Tendrils kill isn't nearly as hard as you seem to think, also, i personally only play tinker/DSC because of the random "oops i win".

I'm force to agree with Zeus here.  Brian, have you actually played against Meandeck Gifts?  While it is true that it only has two routes to victory, it does a phenomenal job of protecting those routes with countermagic while disrupting its opponent and getting decent card advantage with draw spells.  The deck is very versatile, and you can't just dismiss it by saying, "Well, I play Crypt+Swords, so GG!  Lolz."  Do you think it won at GenCon by being fragile?

I have played against Meandeck Gifts several times.  I currently play Ubw Fish and it's generally a favorable match for me, though I have occasionally lost a g1 to a very early and well-protected Tinker.  I never said it was a bad deck.  I said that it is one of the most hate-susceptible decks in the format now, and I find that difficult to dispute.

Have either of you played Meandeck Gifts or seen it played with a Tormod's Crypt on the table?  Did you notice that it completely guts the main strategy of the deck, namely, to Gifts for several broken cards including Recoup to essentially "force" all of its sorceries on the opponent?  What would you cast Gifts for?  Certainly not Yawgmoth's Will or Recoup.  Not Tinker or Burning Wish either because if the opponent puts them in the Crypted graveyard, well, good luck winning with a "hardcast DSC on the 10th turn" backup strategy.  A bunch of acceleration?  Ok, keep the Mana Crypt and Ruby, so long to the Jet & Lotus.  Or maybe 3 Tutors and a Merchant Scroll.  You really want to Tinker, don't you... And that's my point exactly:

A resolved Tormod's Crypt (not considering Time Spiral's new Wipe Away response) has the tendency to force the Gifts player to win by Tinker.  Then, by shutting off Gifts Ungiven, it stunts the very ability to find the Tinker, and if anything happens to the Colossus or a Meddling Mage shows up naming Tinker (which while not fatal, finding and resolving bounce on him is yet another strain on its resources), then Gifts has to bend over backwards just to cook up some kind of awkward win condition.  Sure, they can pull it off theoretically.  But in the meantime, they gradually lose the game.  Dark Confidants and Chalices start popping up, critical fetches are Stifled, Stormscape Apprentice/Waterfront Bouncer makes a cameo, Forces/MisD + other blue cards start disappearing in desperate attempts to stop the hate parade, Fact or Fiction gets Duressed... I am pretty confident that most experienced Gifts players would acknowledge that Tormod's Crypt is one of the, if not the most, obnoxious cards to play around in the entire format.  Highly disruptive Fish is a pretty bad matchup for Meandeck Gifts as it is, and if they are starting the game right off the bat equipped to shut off both of Gifts' preferred win conditions, then it's not likely for Gifts to prevail.

All in all, Meandeck Gifts is a very strong deck against the majority of the format and has a respectable combo matchup, unlike many Drain decks.  It has a lot going for it.  But I stand by my statement that it is very prone to hatred and UW/UWb Fish, the very embodiment of T1 Hate, is accordingly among its worst matchups.  If I played Gifts, I would never want to see Tormod's Crypt resolve, especially not if I knew my opponent had the plays to offset Tinker.  Whether or not you agree with those viewpoints, I find the the insinuations that I've "[n]ever" played against Meandeck Gifts or that I'm not familiar with the deck to be self-evidently ridiculous.

-BPK

[zeus-online]

Its true that tormod's crypt is really annoying, but i rarely if ever FoW a first turn crypt, what i'd gift for? Depends on the situation, but mana or card-draw generally, i'd try to reach some sort of critical mass, like 2-3 moxen, rebuild and tendrils, and then go off that way. Or if i think it'll work, just good ol' tinker/DSC.

Oh, and as good as wipe away will be against tinker/DSC....It also answers that crypt of yours

/Zeus

[brianpk80]

Its true that tormod's crypt is really annoying, but i rarely if ever FoW a first turn crypt, what i'd gift for? Depends on the situation, but mana or card-draw generally, i'd try to reach some sort of critical mass, like 2-3 moxen, rebuild and tendrils, and then go off that way. Or if i think it'll work, just good ol' tinker/DSC.

Keep in mind that if you want to win with Rebuild (which indeed you can Scroll for), you're going to have to either topdeck Burning Wish (or Tendrils if you run both maindeck) or blow a Mystical/Demonic Tutor on it and hope that you fortuitously end up with the right combination of on-color Moxen to pull off the color-intensive kill.  And if you want the Rebuild to be lethal, you'll probably be holding at least a few Moxen in your hand to build storm the turn you go off, and this will mean less acceleration on the table as you build up to the kill, which is another strain on your resources.  There is no single card in Fish that wins any match (well, except a well-timed True Believer in Vial Fish  ).  It's the constant assault on an opponent's gameplan that eventually wears them down.  Where Gifts has 2 threats, 11 counters, and a well oiled draw/tutor machine, Fish has 7-8 counters, moderate draw, and between 22-26 threats, most of which aim right for the jugular of Gifts' gameplan.         

Oh, and as good as wipe away will be against tinker/DSC....It also answers that crypt of yours

!! That is exactly what I said in my last reply:

"A resolved Tormod's Crypt (not considering Time Spiral's new Wipe Away response)..."

Still, you wouldn't want to Wipe the Crypt away until you're ready to go off and by that time there should be juicier targets on the board to bounce. 

-BPK 

[freakish777]

You'll end step the Wipe Away on Crypt as the Gifts player, and then Gifts/FoF/AR/whatever.  I highly doubt there will ever be juicer targets on the board to bounce than Crypt if you're playing Fish.  You've got believer out?  Alright, I Wipe Away Crypt, Gifts for Chain of Vapor to bounce all my Moxen, and then your believer after tapping all my mana.  You've got MMage down?  Same deal.  You've got both and have MMage naming Chain?  Wipe Away Crypt, Gifts for Rebuild, on my Rebuild (if you give it to me), Recoup, Will, Rebuild for yet more mana, Wipe Away Believer, Tendrils.

I don't think there will be "juicer" targets to wipe away than TCrypt if TCrypt is the first obstactle in your path to victory.  True Believer and MMage are the next obstactles, but rarely if ever the first obstactles.

[zeus-online]

End of turn rebuild has worked for me before, actually

I usually hold my moxen unless i need the mana anyways, so i often got a couple in hand.
I play with maindeck tendrils, makes these kind of wins alot easier.

/Zeus

[brianpk80]

You'll end step the Wipe Away on Crypt as the Gifts player, and then Gifts/FoF/AR/whatever.  I highly doubt there will ever be juicer targets on the board to bounce than Crypt if you're playing Fish.  You've got believer out?  Alright, I Wipe Away Crypt, Gifts for Chain of Vapor to bounce all my Moxen, and then your believer after tapping all my mana.  You've got MMage down?  Same deal.  You've got both and have MMage naming Chain?  Wipe Away Crypt, Gifts for Rebuild, on my Rebuild (if you give it to me), Recoup, Will, Rebuild for yet more mana, Wipe Away Believer, Tendrils.

There's a serious flaw in your analysis.  You can't cast Gifts Ungiven with a True Believer in play because Gifts requires a "target" opponent to assign the four cards for you. 

I also have to wonder where UUU4 is coming from for you to Wipe Away a Crypt and cast FoF/Gifts at the end of my turn.  Sure, once in a while, you score an Academy that doesn't get Wasted, but if you're blowing your Lotus, Petal, or Mana Vault on this maneuver, then I don't see you coming up with UUUUUUURBBB13 the very next turn to pull off the stunt you outlined above, unless we are well into the game (10th turn), at which point someone should have already lost. 

Third, if you're running Wipe Away and Tendrils of Agony maindeck, then I'm curious to know what you've cut for them from Menendian's initial MDGifts build and why you think running three bounce spells and so many win conditions strengthens your deck as a whole.   

I don't think there will be "juicer" targets to wipe away than TCrypt if TCrypt is the first obstactle in your path to victory.  True Believer and MMage are the next obstactles, but rarely if ever the first obstactles.

Well, most Gifts players would probably find True Believer to be just as obnoxious once resolved.  The main differences are that Crypt comes down so early, you don't want to waste a pitch counter on it, while Believer is more manageable overall, because by the time he appears (typically not Turn 1), he tends to be a Drain target and also that if you bounce/remove him, he can't be activated in response unlike the Crypt (unless you use Wipe Away). 

Some bigger targets would be Null Rod (if they run Planar Void or Leyline in lieu of Crypt), Children of Korlis, Waterfront Bouncer, Chalice of the Void, Chains of Mephistopheles, True Believer, AEther Vial @ 2, and Meddling Mage naming Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will.     

-BPK

[freakish777]

There's a serious flaw in your analysis.  You can't cast Gifts Ungiven with a True Believer in play because Gifts requires a "target" opponent to assign the four cards for you. 
Third, if you're running Wipe Away and Tendrils of Agony maindeck, then I'm curious to know what you've cut for them from Menendian's initial MDGifts build and why you think running three bounce spells and so many win conditions strengthens your deck as a whole.   

Fair enough, we'll assume you've got Believer and TCrypt down.  I'm still going to Wipe the TCrypt in your end step as a setup for Yawg Will (Tinker here is fairly useless, you pack Swords, I'd rather go for Tendrils).  Now whether I've DT'd/Mystical'd/Vamp'd/drawn Yawg Will or whether I've Mechant Scrolled for Chain of Vapor and have Gifts in hand (granted these are less likely than what I originally posted due to my oversight), I should still be in fine condition to either just Will and Wipe Away Believer into Tendrils, or end step Chain of Vapor Believer into Gifts.  In terms of getting to that amount of mana to have 4UUUU on the board for the second scenario in an end step isn't that hard (lets say turn 5 with a Sol Ring and a Mox, or a Crypt and a Mox). 

Some bigger targets would be Null Rod, AEther Vial @ 2, and Meddling Mage naming Yawgmoth's Will.   

-BPK

Chains, I don't care, I'm playing Gifts for the win.  Children, I'll bounce them before I actually play Tendrils after I play Will if necessary, no way I'm bouncing it before Crypt here.  Waterfront, nope, doesn't affect Tendrils (in case you haven't realized, against Fish I prefer going for a tendrils kill, because most of the times if you go for Tinker you lose to Swords).  MMage on Tinker, sure you can keep him around.  Chalice at 0?  Thats what Rebuild in my Gifts pile is there for.

The other's you've name are more interesting, however, Vial@2 doesn't seem all that threatening, unless you Vial in MMage naming Will after I Gifts (say in my upkeep or after I've tapped out in your end step), the chances that Vial@2 wins the game for you in that scenario are slimmer than the chances of Tormod's Crypt being activated winning the game for you though I feel.

[brianpk80]

Fair enough, we'll assume you've got Believer and TCrypt down.  I'm still going to Wipe the TCrypt in your end step as a setup for Yawg Will (Tinker here is fairly useless, you pack Swords, I'd rather go for Tendrils).  Now whether I've DT'd/Mystical'd/Vamp'd/drawn Yawg Will or whether I've Mechant Scrolled for Chain of Vapor and have Gifts in hand (granted these are less likely than what I originally posted due to my oversight), I should still be in fine condition to either just Will and Wipe Away Believer into Tendrils, or end step Chain of Vapor Believer into Gifts.  In terms of getting to that amount of mana to have 4UUUU on the board for the second scenario in an end step isn't that hard (lets say turn 5 with a Sol Ring and a Mox, or a Crypt and a Mox). 

Agreed: It's not uncommon for Gifts to have 4UUU on the board by the fifth turn.  But what I said was that it's hard to imagine that on the fifth turn against Fish with its repeated mana denial tricks that you will have 4UUU followed by UUUUUUURBBB13 (!) or UUUUUUURBBB15 if Recoup needs to be Flashed back to execute the chain of commands you initially proposed.  Yes, this is conceivable.  But it is not likely except under the most pristine and fortunate circumstances for the Gifts player.  At any rate, this isn't the kind of move you pull off on in the early game, especially not when a True Believer has prevented you from Gifting for acceleration this whole time. 

Further, how does this calculation operate if you're playing around Daze?  Let's say you've been (wisely) keeping your mana base pure clean blue to stave off Wastelands and you have two Islands, a Delta, a Strand, Sol Ring, and Mox Ruby in play at the end of Fish's 5th turn.  He has an untapped Wasteland and Stifles your first Delta.  Do you Drain the Stifle?  If you do, Wipe Away goes offline for another turn, and you can't Gifts because the Crypt is still in play.  Then, if you don't draw into a black mana source ASAP, you can't use the Strand next turn to fetch an Underground to cast Wipe Away because it would be Wasted before you could Demonic/Vampiric/Will the next turn.  Alternatively, if you FoW it, what will you pitch?  Not Rebuild and not Gifts Ungiven if you had them, so maybe Misdirection or a Brainstorm.  Can you protect all of your relevant plays then, when Fish has been outdrawing you 2-1 since Dark Confidant resolved on the first turn (they were tapped out on resources to disrupt early your Scroll -> Ancestral play, but since then have more than caught up).  Would you ignore the Stifle, hope to draw another land, and repeat the strategy at the end of his next turn, essentially giving him a Time Walk?  And since we're giving you five turns, we've also got to expect that Fish has done more than play a Tormod's Crypt, True Believer, and a Confidant after seeing at least 15 cards.  How would the situation change if you were Duressed on the 4th turn?  And how would you ever get to where you want to be by the fifth turn if an early Erayo was flipped against you?   

Chains, I don't care, I'm playing Gifts for the win.  Children, I'll bounce them before I actually play Tendrils after I play Will if necessary, no way I'm bouncing it before Crypt here.  Waterfront, nope, doesn't affect Tendrils (in case you haven't realized, against Fish I prefer going for a tendrils kill, because most of the times if you go for Tinker you lose to Swords).  MMage on Tinker, sure you can keep him around.  Chalice at 0?  Thats what Rebuild in my Gifts pile is there for.

Fair enough.  If you're locked into one strategy then anything disrupting the other can presumably be ignored, except for perhaps the Chalice which, as we all know, occasionally has the potential to bottleneck your mana base for as many turns as it takes to find Chain/Rebuild (which could be immediate, or could be less ideal) and the Chains which likewise may have stunted your early development.  There will be times where you're not Gifting for the win, but rather you are Gifting for a breakthrough.   

The other's you've name are more interesting, however, Vial@2 doesn't seem all that threatening, unless you Vial in MMage naming Will after I Gifts (say in my upkeep or after I've tapped out in your end step), the chances that Vial@2 wins the game for you in that scenario are slimmer than the chances of Tormod's Crypt being activated winning the game for you though I feel.

It's funny you should mention that because Vial @ 2 should probably be your biggest cause for concern when you're stategy revolves around bouncing their 2-CC creatures, especially if it is later in the game and the Fish player has been drawing via Ninja/Confidant or has resolved Ancestral.  First of all, the Vial may negate your first Chain of Vapor.  Let's say you don't have Wipe Away (or aren't running it) and your plan is to bounce the Believer and Gifts for the win.  You have to cast Gifts in immediate response to the Chain (which is a precarious move v. a deck with as much counters and mana disruption as Fish), otherwise the Believer will be right back to foil your Gifts.  Yes, Wipe Away changes the calculation but let's be honest here; it's a brand new card that has only begun to percolate into Vintage and its impact and its subtle pros and cons remain to be seen.  It's not currently standard in any deck.  Hence, if you're only running the standard singleton Chain of Vapor, you don't want to see a Vial @ 2 with a Believer in play if Gifts Ungiven is your only current available means to acquire Rebuild and Yawgmoth's Will.  If there's a backup Believer in the opponent's hand when you Chain, then you've lost your Gifts.  And even if you did resolve the Chain of Vapor and the Gifts Ungiven before the Chain resolved, it would be pretty suboptimal to put a True Believer in your opponent's hand with a Vial @ 2 in play the turn before you want to kill him with Tendrils of Agony, wouldn't you think?  (Especially if there's anything else that needs bouncing, like the Crypt or a Mage).   

Secondly, the party is over if Voidmage creeps out of the Vial in response to your Will, especially if Fish has UUUU open and opts to sacrifice a Meddling Mage, Stormscape Apprentice, or Dark Confidant (all Wizards), reserving the Voidmage himself for another hard counter.  You also don't want to see a Vial @ 2 where a Meddling Mage is in play naming Yawgmoth's Will.  When you bounce the Mage, the Fish player can sacrifice a land to bounce something of his own to regain priority and Vial the Mage right back out. 

That said, there is a reason that good players will always FoW an early Vial.  Fishes slither out of that thing at the worst times and cause dramatic swings in the game's dynamic.  Uncounterable Believers in response to Gifts/Tendrils.  Uncounterable Mages after you Gifts.  Uncounterable counterspells w. Voidmage.  Uncounterable draw engines.  Uncounterable bounce-critters and tap-Wizards after Tinker.  The Vial says, "Hello there Drain deck, I hope you don't mind but we're going to ignore all of your Forces, Mana Drains, and Misdirections for the rest of the game.  Cool with you?"  It shouldn't be. 

Anyway, my main point once again is that Meandeck Gifts has a few Achilles' Heels and no other deck in the format lunges at them quite like Fish.   

-BPK

[diopter]

Agreed with everything BPK says. Fish is an obnoxious deck - never underestimate it. It's like a boa constrictor - it forces you to win small because their threats, while not powerful-seeming on the surface, really blend well together to constrict you on every level. And Meandeck Gifts as a deck is not very good at winning small - you almost always need all your resources to win, so you will feel the sting of a single True Believer, or Chalice, or Rod, or Meddling Mage, or Jotun Grunt, etc.

As far as Tendrils vs. Colossus... Colossus is the deck's one way to win small. Ride Tinker + pitch counters to an ugly victory, but a victory nonetheless. The contortions one has to go through to win with Tendrils against Fish seem a little too convoluted in comparison. Get to 5 unwastable lands + 3 mana from accelerants while hoping that no more than a single one of True Believer/Chalice/Rod/Mage/Crypt is on the table - an average Fish draw has dashes that hope. Get 3 Moxes AND Rebuild AND Tendrils/tutor for Tendrils- achievable by Scrolling for Recall and drawing the nuts off it, but still quite difficult. You'd better hope your opponent doesn't have Chalice or Rod, because you're going to need a lot of mana and since you're replaying jewelry, either Chalice or Rod will stop you dead cold. Compare that to the DSC plan - Scroll up Mystical Tutor for Tinker and play it, or Scroll up Recall first, which will more often than not draw you another Scroll or a tutor to fetch Tinker, as well as giving you a few more pitch counters to handle the incoming StPs or bounce spells.

[freakish777]

UUUUUUURBBB13 (!)

Alright, so I'm playing Gifts, Wipe Away and Chain in your End Step correct?  For the sake of argument we'll assume the game is hotly contested and that you either don't have mana open for Stifle and that Gifts is resolving (also, we'll assume I either have Tendrils main, or that I've boarded it in for games 2 and 3).

Now, I've never claimed that the game plan is good or that it's "sure fire," simply that I'd much rather Wipe Away Crypt than Believer.

Assuming my fetches resolve (and CoV on Beleiver does as well), I Gifts for Yawg Will, Recoup, Rebuild, and likely for Lotus (my chances of having a Tutor + Draw Spells in the bin are likely high).

Assume Lotus and Rebuild are the cards I'm given.  I play out Lotus (1 storm), tap my Ruby and Sol Ring (2R), Rebuild, (R and 2 storm, 3 Islands untapped), Replay Lotus, Ruby, tap Ruby for Sol Ring (R and 5 storm, 3 Islands untapped), Flashback recoup (6 storm, 2 Islands untapped), Sac Lotus (BBB), Will (BB floating, 7 storm), Lotus for UUU (BBUUU, 8 storm), Chain of Vapor targetting Ruby, Sol Ring and X (something of your's), tap Ruby for Ring, (2BBUU floating).

Here's where things get tricky and depend entirely on what you've player already this turn.  If I have Mystical and a Brainstorm in my graveyard, I win.  If I have Ancestral and Mystical, I win.  If I somehow have 1U more in play and have Merchant and Brainstorm in my bin, I win.  Having 1B instead of UU works here too with DT in the bin.

Again, this line of play isn't amazing, but depending on how good the Gifts player's opening was, is probably the correct line of play to pursue.

Further, how does this calculation operate if you're playing around Daze?

In tight situations, I don't play around Daze.

And since we're giving you five turns, we've also got to expect that Fish has done more than play a Tormod's Crypt, True Believer, and a Confidant after seeing at least 15 cards.  How would the situation change if you were Duressed on the 4th turn?  And how would you ever get to where you want to be by the fifth turn if an early Erayo was flipped against you?   

Sure, we'll say you've played spells, but we aren't going to assume they're all going to resolve, just as we aren't going to assume that all of my spells are going to resolve (simply that the line of play I outlined I think is the correct position to attempt to place yourself in if possible).  If you want to imagine a blow out every single time in favor of the deck you currently play, be my guest.  I am not going to say that Fish doesn't focus on beating Gifts or say that it's match up isn't good.

Chains which likewise may have stunted your early development. 

My point remains, if I didn't Force/Drain Chains because I was holding BStorms/Ancestral I wanted to resolve later, I'll let it stick.  If I'm holding Ancestral in my hand after my first turn (Scroll) and your play Chains, you can bet I'll Force if I've got it.  If not, I'm ARing in your draw step to keep pace.

Anyway, my main point once again is that Meandeck Gifts has a few Achilles' Heels and no other deck in the format lunges at them quite like Fish.   

-BPK

And my main point was that for Gifts Crypt is largely more threatening to my game plan than much everything else.

[brianpk80]

Alright, so I'm playing Gifts, Wipe Away and Chain in your End Step correct?  For the sake of argument we'll assume the game is hotly contested and that you either don't have mana open for Stifle and that Gifts is resolving (also, we'll assume I either have Tendrils main, or that I've boarded it in for games 2 and 3).

You need UUUU4 for that which you can't produce with 4 lands, a Mox, and a Sol Ring.  But since it's a generous day, for argument's sake I'll give you an Emerald.  Realistically speaking though, I can't think of any reason why I'd be tapped out at the end of my fifth turn when all I have in play is a Dark Confidant, a True Believer, and a Tormod's Crypt.  If I am tapped out and have so little to show for it, the only plausible explanation is that we've just ended a heated counter war leaving you with significantly less than 7 cards in hand since, as everything you have is untapped, you've obviously been Pitching and not Draining.  The only way this could not be true is if you ended up Misdirecting my Ancestral.  (Mind you, this makes no sense either because the last thing I'm going to do against Meandeck Gifts with UUUU4 on the table is cast Ancestral on my own main phase). 

That brings us to your next line of plays, which if performed without disruption and the right cards are in your bin (not definite, but probably an 85-90% chance), then you should win.  But just about any disruption at that point would have nuked it for you.  If I give you Rebuild and Recoup and then counter the Will, there's trouble.  If any of the following cards were on the table, it would have been over: Mage naming Will, Withered Wretch, Voidmage Prodigy + UU, Strip Mine, AEther Vial @ 2 + Mage/Voidmage in hand, Null Rod (Give you Lotus and Recoup; you win if you topdeck Academy, and yes Vial/Crypt and Null Rod are mutually exclusive so what you see will be build dependent), etc.  It's important to note that for this to pan out properly, we had to assume no Stifles, no counters, no more than 3 permanents, and no other disruption.  Given all of those circumstances, Fish has utterly failed to perform as intended and consequently, Gifts should win.  But note that if we assumed Fish were functionting ordinarily, the slightest additional pressure throws off every calculation you've made, probably ends up buying another turn (if not outright decimates your win condition) during which they draw more pressure, and the clock continues to tick.   

This is why, as diopter recognized, when I lose to Gifts, it's usually something more along the lines of Island, Mana Crypt, Tinker, Misdirect your FoW, Force your bounce.  I don't run StP Main, and many Fish decks likewise don't (some don't even run White).  And if you board out the Colossus as a win condition, everything rides on your graveyard and setting up an unmolested lethal Will/Rebuild.  Pulling off a storm kill against Fish will usually take a pretty superior draw by the Gifts player and a limp one by Fish, if Fish player is significantly familiar with Gifts.  I am always more wary of Tinker than Yawgmoth's Will until we're well into the midgame.  There are a million things I could do to disturb the preparation and execution of a smooth storm kill, while with the former, I have to win a counterwar that usually favors you.   

Again, this line of play isn't amazing, but depending on how good the Gifts player's opening was, is probably the correct line of play to pursue.

Under the circumstances I would say that yes, that is the correct play. 

And my main point was that for Gifts Crypt is largely more threatening to my game plan than much everything else.

Then it appears we're on the same page.  This whole discussion began when I stated that a Crypt and a few bounce spells in an opening hand are silver bullets v. Meandeck Gifts.  While there are a few permanents and tricks you also need to watch out for, Tormod's Crypt is the most efficient and constricting disruption you'll face.  No disagreement there.   

-BPK

[Everrid1234]

Brain,

you are discussing in a very intelligent way and I can underline what you said.
It's all about being realistic and not talking about perfect board situations having 1000 mana open and a full hand of tutors or needed answers while still being able to go off totally with a high storm count.

A Tendrils-based deck being forced to watch the board is weakened a lot (though still strong).

I am interested very much in you personal Fish decklist.

And maybe you have some comments for my personal U/W decklist posted here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29157.0

I would be interested in your opinion.

[wethepeople]

Lim-Dul's Vault would practicly become a Demonic tutor at instant speed with this guy out. Im thinking

Rituals/Necro/Lim-Dul's Vault/Demonic/Childrens

Lim-Dul's Vault would basicalliy allow you to rearrange your next five draws to your perfection since you could scroll through as many times needed.