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Author Topic: Gooch Gifts, a Primer? By me?  (Read 7612 times)
Gaagooch
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« on: September 21, 2006, 05:21:57 pm »

I sent in an article to starcity games about my list of gifts ungiven and why i chose the cards i did...they however did not post it as it is probably not good enough.   Sad  Anyways i will post it here for all of you to hopefully enjoy, feel free to question or comment me, and it. 


“The Gooch Gifts Way”
By: Daniel Gacioch

No card that I have seen has changed my outlook on a format as much as Gifts Ungiven has.  I never really played type one much until about two years ago, when I started playing The Perfect Storm.  I began to play it because my friend played it with lots of success.  I loved the deck but never top eighted with it, and the deck slowly died away and became pretty much just another deck that can win occasionally but would not do so consistently.  Around this time Team Meandeck unveiled their new deck called Meandeck Gifts.  I tooled around with this deck and tested it a lot, played it in local tournaments and in bigger ones.  I loved what it stood for but not all of the cards it played.  After a while I took the original Meandeck Gifts list and changed it to my liking. 

By Stephen Menendian

4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Recoup
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Burning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Rushing River
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Old Man of the Sea

That is the first list with which I was introduced and played for about three months.  At that point I really decided I needed to change the deck more to my liking as there were some four ofs that I just did not think fit very well, and could be better replaced.  The new list I played for a few months is below.


7:SoLoMoxen
1:Mana Crypt
1:Mana Vault
1:Lotus Petal
1:Darksteel Colossus
1:Demonic Tutor
1:Burning Wish
1:Tinker
1:Time Walk
1:Recoup
3:Merchant Scroll
1:Yawgmoth’s Will
2:Impulse
2:Misdirection
4:Force of Will
1:Rebuild
4:Mana Drain
1:Echoing Truth
1:Mystical Tutor
4:Brainstorms
4:Gifts Ungiven
1:Fact or Fiction
1:Ancestral Recall
1:Tolarian Academy
1:Flooded Strand
4:Polluted Delta
2:Volcanic Island
2:Underground Sea
1:Tundra
4:Island

Sideboard:
1:Tendrils of Agony
1:Rack and Ruin
1:Shattering Pulse
2:Duress
2:Pyroclasm
3:Red Elemental Blast
1:Tormod’s Crypt
2:Pithing Needle
1:Rebuild
1:Balance

All of the differences in my deck are pretty easy to see as compared to the original version with which I based most of my deck off.  Not to take any credit away from Stephen Menendian, but I did consider this my deck, whether or not that is warranted or not due to the changes I made is neither here nor there.  I did previously write an article on cardshark about this deck and why I made the changes to the original list, I will not go into full detail here as this isn’t the final decklist I ended up with it was the middle point, the stepping stone you might say.  But here is the general idea behind an article I wrote in the past for this deck. 

So the first thing that I will talk about is why I have a Tundra in my deck and a Balance in the sideboard. Where I play locally we have a Type One tournament every Thursday night and we decided to test how this idea works out as we play with a lot of fish as well as Workshop aggro based decks. I can only think of a few times that I actually wanting to cast balance as I never got paired with the fish decks. But also due to the overall utility I see in this card I think it’s a new addition to my sideboard and is going to stay there. I mean the deck runs smoothly as is and the only match I have had a problem with thus far is Workshop aggro. In the past three weeks I am 10-3-1 with this deck with all three of my losses coming to the same person playing Workshop aggro. So having Balance there seems like it could come in handy in that match. 

The next thing I will mention is that the deck has cut down to three Merchant Scrolls, and two Misdirections, and added in two Impulses. I can’t even try to recount the amount of times when I would have a Merchant Scroll in my hand and wish it was anything else. Usually I find that it is a good card to pitch to Force of Will, or to get a Force of Will. The card however does smooth the deck out and has very many uses, thus the reason why it must be included in the deck and in my opinion as a three-of. The cutting down of the Misdirections is along the same lines of the Merchant Scrolls, I was just seeing them too often and they were becoming dead cards. Now, don’t get me wrong I love paying no mana losing two cards from my hand to draw three off my opponent’s Ancestral Recall just as much as the next guy, but people will begin to play around this and there really is not a crushing need to have three.
Impulse was a late addition to the deck by us for testing to see how it performed. In the limited time I have had testing it I have to say the card is good. It’s never a dead card as at worst it can pitch to Force or Misdirection. It will always allow you to see four cards into your deck and should you need to shuffle away a Brainstorm it will allow you to see two cards deeper and then essentially shuffle by putting the three others on the bottom. This is a great way to get rid of Darksteel Colossus should you draw him. Other than those cards I believe the maindeck is pretty much the same and the sideboard is pretty much the same as well.

After playing this deck for months and becoming better friends with more people in the type one community I still felt the deck was lacking something.  I felt that Merchant Scroll and Misderection where both good cards, but they just did not fit my personal play style.  Around this time I became more and more interested in Andy Probasco’s Gifts deck.  It had different cards than I ran, and it seemed to play very well.  That is when I started to love Gifts the deck and ultimately came up with what I call Gooch Gifts or TPS Gifts as my team is Team Perfect Scrubs (TPS).  I refer to the deck as either of the two names because I really don’t care what everone calls it.  It is a very solid deck that I feel gets no respect, but at the same time do not care.  The deck performs for me, and it performs well for me almost every time I pick it up.  At any point before I go any farther I would like to present you with my latest list, which I have won a piece of power by myself, and split about two others as well as won a mana drain and split another.

Gooch Gifts: By Daniel Gacioch

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Darkblast
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Repeal
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
1 Sundering Titan
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Challice of the Void
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Deep Analysis
3 Energy Flux

The Deck is 61 cards, which is a personal preference of mine you don’t have to play 61 that is all up to you.  Now that’s out of the way I can start talking more about the card choices of the deck.  The maindeck cards first.

Darkblast and Tormod’s Crypt fall into the same category.  They are meta game slots that can change at the drop of a hat.  They can change into Pithing needle if I think that is a better call, or into a couple of Misdirections.  These are essentially my only two metagame slots.  In other words these are the only two cards in the entire deck that I view as having the possibility to change before any tournament based on what I expect to be there.  Everything else builds the solid base upon which my deck is made.  Darkblast helps in some of the matches that the deck does not want to have to deal with.  Those being Stax, Combo (if it includes Xantid Swarm or Dark Confidant), Slaver, and it also helps against fish based decks. 
Tormod’s crypt also has very similar qualities in that it accomplishes the same overall goal against the same decks.  These cards are also not dead in every matchup, granted in a Gifts Mirror I do not want to see Darkblast pretty much at all, but it does pitch to Thirst for Knowledge, which by the way is not a good reason to keep it in the deck.  If you walk into a room where Gifts is everywhere then you use your meta game slot and put a different card in, maybe maindeck Sundering Titan along with Colossus because Titan hoses control. 
Tormod’s Crypt stops Yawgmoth’s Will from winning the game enough times to warrant its slot in the maindeck.  Almost to the extent that I will not even think about metagaming it out.  It can stop Dragon, Tendrils Combo, Slaver, Gifts, Stax,  the only decks it really doesn’t do anything against is say a fish based deck.  The only time I would ever think of meta gaming this card out is if I was in a fish heavy enviroment, at which point I would probably think about maindecking a Pyroclasm. 

Repeal in Gifts, has become more and more of a common place and it has treated me fairly well throughout testing and throughout actual play experience.  However I do not like it enough for me to warrant giving it four slots in my deck, in fact I only run two as a third Repeal would probably cause me to cut my one Rebuild, and I cannot do that for reasons which I will make more clear later.  Repeal has replaced what I once ran as Echoing Truth in the effect that it is a catch-all for bounce.  It can bounce any thing that should be stopping me or prohibiting me from “going off” or winning the game. 
Repeal also has this thing where it draws you a card or cantrips.  I learned from playing Sea-Stompy in type two that the more cards you see in a game, and the more cantrips you have the better off you will be.  Since the decks main purpose is to see as many cards as it can, the drawing a card after bouncing something on repeal comes very much in handy and is very, very good. 

Gifts Ungiven is obviously the basis of the entire deck, although you may wonder why I am saying something like this as I am only running three copies of it in the maindeck.  Well, quite frankly three is the perfect number for me.  I see it enough where it will help me win the game, but not so often where I will have more than one in my hand for a long period of time.  Usually you only have to cast one Gifts to win any one game, but occasionally you may need to cast more than one, this is why I believe three is a perfect number.  Thus if I have to pitch a card early to Force of Will I can pitch a Gifts, because I know that there are two more in my deck, and with the draw that I have, I should have absolutely no problem finding one of them, without burning a tutor if I don’t have to. 
This card also is not always about getting the most broken cards in your deck, its about making your opponent make decisions.  The more decisions that effect the overall outcome of the game your force your opponent to make the more and more mistakes he is capable of making.  Now he may not always make all of these mistakes, in fact he may not make any, but making him decide how to do things opens up the chance for a mistake.  You can also mess with your opponents head to some extent by making him think you have certain cards in your hand, whether or not you do have them does not matter, again play off your opponents mistakes while at the same time not making any yourself, or at least minimizing their overall effect on the outcome of the game. 
That is also pretty much the entire basis for the reason I left one Fact or Fiction in my deck, again it makes my opponent make the decision and thus will allow me to capitalize on any mistakes should he make them. 

Thirst for Knowledge, widely the most argued about card in any Gifts deck current or past.  I can not ever see myself playing another Gifts deck without a full set of these in it.  This card has to be the all-star of the deck.  There are the obvious reasons like, you want to pitch Darksteel Colossus so that you can Tinker for him, or you want to draw three new cards and get rid of the off color Mox Pearl you are holding.  But above that there is an even greater reason.  Even if I never pitched an artifact to Thirst for Knowledge when I played, like to say I was horribly unlucky and just never drew one to discard I would still play the card.  Why would I play the card, it is simple, it maximizes the strength of your hand at any one time. 
When Thirst was legal in type two, again I played type two long before I started type one so I get most of my backing from such, I played it in Blue/White Control.  This deck ran so few artifact, but it did not matter to me.  It helps dig into your deck and helps you see more cards, sure at best I am playing a card, drawing three, and discarding two cards, but the three cards I see can be very helpful in winning the game.  I thus am gaining no actual card advantage off Thirst for Knowledge, but I am gaining card quality.  In the type one environment when you see three cards off the top of your deck you are pretty much set on seeing at least one that will help you win the game either right then, or set you up to win later.  Now that is not a guarantee because I know it has happened to me where I have cast a Thirst needing to see any business spell at all and not found it.  Sometimes it happens that you won’t. 
Of course since we are talking about Thirst for Knowledge in a type one deck and not a type two deck you generally will see an artifact just about every time you cast one, and if not im sure you will have a couple of cards you can deal without having in your hand at that current moment.  The deck does run enough artifacts where you should not be too bad with seeing one just about every time you Thirst, and remember you can hold back artifacts to pitch to Thirst too. 

Tendrils of Agony? In the maindeck? What are you thinking?  This is something that I personally take credit for doing.  Playing Tendrils as a maindeck card.  Now a lot of people hate this card with a passion in the maindeck of any Gifts variant, but I have proven to myself beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is worth it.  That is why I run the one maindeck Rebuild.  It allows for you to ramp up storm and a lot of times also generate mana so that you can Tendrils easier and for a lethal amount. 
This also opens up Burning Wish to be more of a utility card rather than a win more card.  If you need draw it can get Deep Analysis, if you need to clear the board choose one, Pyroclasm, or Massacre, and if you can’t find your maindeck Tendrils well then you can use your one wish.  Also Burning Wish allows you to use Yawgmoth’s Will at an earlier stage to catch up to an opponent or to gain such an advantage they can not come back. 
But this is about Tendrils of Agony and not any of these other cards, and to that I say that Tendrils of Agony makes all of these other cards as good as they possibly can be, I would never take my maindeck Tendrils of Agony out.  Never have I even thought about it and only now are a few people starting to play a maindeck Tendrils in Gifts variants.

On to the ever important sideboard card choices.  I am not going to write nearly as much about these as I think they are all pretty self-explanatory.

Sundering Titan owns control mirrors, and for that reason and that reason alone he warrants a spot in your Gifts sideboard.  He eats your opponent’s lands, and beats for the win.  I cannot explain how many times I played against the Gifts mirror, boarded him in and won because of him; in fact, I have a pretty good Gifts record in Gifts mirror matches.  I cannot give you an exact number of wins compared to losses, but on an estimate I would have to say I’m somewhere around winning 75% of Gifts mirrors.  A lot of this has to do with the Titan in my board which I have seen other people play since they have seen me doing so well with him. 

Blue Elemental Blast is a more recent addition I have been testing, I do like it as it can kill Welders, and with the recent Dragon deck making a play I think it is a solid card in my board.  However I will continue to test it as two BEB’s they may in time turn back into the original two Pyroblasts.

Chalice of the Void is absolutely an all-star card in my sideboard.  In the few matches I have played thus far where I could bring it in and did it has been spectacular.  It helps you deal with combo and in general just slow your opponent down.  My hats off to Chalice and it is not leaving any time soon.

Massacre and Pyroclasm are the same thing pretty much to me, they kill x/2’s which is all that I am looking for.  Is having one and one better than having one of them as a two of?  I think so.  Is it necessary?  Maybe, maybe not.  The Massacre allows for me to kill my opponent’s creatures if he is playing a x/white fish deck for free.  They are both good and I would never run two Massacres but you could run two Pyroclasms and get away with it, if you are even worried about fish. 

Deep Analysis is strictly in my sideboard to be a Burning Wish target.  Many times I have needed more cards, and many times I have Wished for Deep Analysis.  It is especially good with Mana Drain mana, but could also be cut, again it is all your personal preferance on this matter.

Energy Flux is the only card I personally think is on the chopping block of my sideboard.  It is not that it is a bad card, it is just that in my current meta game I am seeing very few Workshop decks.  This limits the actual use of this card, but I have heard that Workshops are again on the rise so more than likely this card will stay in my sideboard to shore up what I normally consider a pretty bad matchup.  It will not always win me the game, but it will give me a better position for such. 

Now on to the actual matchups of this deck.

Gooch Gifts vs. Fish variants

This is the one match that I learned to hate the most above any other.  It at times can be a very tough match for you to win.  They run enough disruption to slow you down, and sometimes you just cannot regain back the tempo with which you have lost.  It is a very winnable matchup but at times requires the utmost of patience and knowledge not only for your own deck but also for your opponents.  You quite often have to play around cards such as Daze, and also watch out for Wastelands.  That being the reason I run four basic Islands.  Just remember not to fetch out a non-basic until you absolutely have to.  And most obviously counter Null Rod if you can, as this card can hose you hardcore.
The creatures themselves aren’t always the problem as you can wait around on the slow clock fish has until you have a decent enough hand to try and go off, sometimes however the hand will not come together so perfectly.  My honest suggestion is to playtest against a competent fish player for as many hours as you can, but when you go into a fish match be ready for anything, as with Gifts all fish decks are not the same, some play different cards and have faster clocks.  Be ready for anything, but don’t worry about everything. 
If they are playing a fish deck with white in it you can take sideboarding one of two ways, you can sideboard into more counters, and take out Tinker, and Collosus.  This can be a risky play with great reward though, as chances are your opponent is either boarding in more swords to deal with your Colossus, or boarding out only one.  This maximizes the amount of dead cards he can be holding at any one time, and gives you a nice little advantage. 
Remember games are not won on single cards but are won on the combination of cards that give you small advantages, eventually mounting in a much larger advantage.  On the whole sideboarding against fish is pretty much cut and dry take out Tormod’s Crypt, a Thirst for Knowledge, and I would say usually a Repeal, for two REBs or BEBs depending on the build, and Massacre or Pyroclasm, again depending on the build. 
I cannot say that this is the definitive way to sideboard against fish, as I myself have had very little play testing against fish decks as again, they seem to be pretty dead in my area.  Key cards in the matchup are Force of Will, Mana Drain, Gifts Ungiven, Tinker, and Darksteel Colossus, and sometimes Darkblast can be very good as well.

Gooch Gifts vs. Slaver

I have always been told that this is a bad match for me; however, I will never come to believe this fact as I myself have had great success against Slaver decks.  Maybe it was the actual play ability of my opponent, or maybe it just really isn’t as bad a matchup as I have been led to believe.  This matchup is all about winning the big counter war.  These counter wars will generally happen over spells like Tinker, and Gifts Ungiven.  If your opponent should want to counter your draw spells, it is alright to fight back occasionally but is normally a much better play to let it be countered and save your counter for his big threat.  So unless you really need those cards right now, it is ok to let your opponent counter your Thirst for Knowledge. 
In my eyes Slaver is a deck that looks to build momentum slowly as well as trying to stop the opponent from doing much of anything.  It uses all of its cards, which again give it small advantages in the game state to eventually build up a big enough advantage to win the game.  Yes they can go crazy Tinker for Mindslaver take your turn and gas you out.  But more often than not you will find they slowly set themselves up for a Slaving, so that they may be able to “Slave lock” you out of the game.  If the Slaver deck you are playing against is running Yawgmoth’s Will rely on the fact that they cannot simply just win off Yawgmoth’s nearly as easily as you or other decks.  They tend to use it as a momentum swing that can either get them back into the game or get the advantage back to them as a whole. 
Now when it comes to sideboarding there is no doubt they are going to board in REBs, this is one of the reasons I am testing BEBs.  Not only do they counter and kill Welders, but they also counter REBs which every Drain deck is running around with now.  I generally sideboard out two Repeals, one Gifts Ungiven, Darksteel Colossus and Vampiric Tutor, for the combination of REBs and BEBs I am running and Sundering Titan. 
Again this is a drain deck, meaning they run Volcanic Islands, and Underground Seas, which makes Titan better than Colossus even though he is a turn slower of a clock because he cuts your opponent off what they need most.  There mana.  Key cards in this matchup are Tinker, Mana Drain, Gifts Ungiven, Thirst For Knowledge, and in this case Darkblast.  Post board your key card can also be Sundering Titan.

Gooch Gifts vs. Combo

This matchup can be very tough, but is never an auto-loss, less your opponent always has a first turn win and you don’t happen to have any counter magic in any game.  Against a better chunk of combo decks you generally would like to have a Force of Will in your opening hand and also would like to have Mana Drain mana up as soon as you possibly can.  Artifact accelerants are much bigger in this matchup than in any other, as you are racing a deck that is made to be faster than you.  If you can slow them down enough there is no doubt you can win, but you always have to be on the lookout for anything coming from them. 
Tinker for Colossus is not always a win as combo decks run maindeck artifact bounce and if that is all you have they can still go off on you.  So never sit back even if they have only one turn to win, so everything you can to close the window as much as you can, the more time you give them with an open chance the better chance they have of winning the match of course. 
Since I am referring to the combo match as pretty much being Grim Long with its sudden popularity, you cannot board out your Darkblast, because then Xantid Swarm shuts your counter magic off, and then you lose pretty much 90% of the time.  I would sideboard out one Gifts Ungiven, and two Repeals for the three Chalice of the Voids.  That should help you slow them down enough while at the same time allowing yourself to stay in the game.  The key cards in this matchup are artifact accelerants, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Thirst for Knowledge.  The only reason TFK is so important is because you need to keep seeing new cards and digging for more counter magic to keep yourself in the game.

Gooch Gifts vs. Workshop Aggro or Stax

I tend to group both of these two matches together because they generally are the same thing for me.  Both decks run Welders, and both try to lock me out of the game as quickly as they can.  This match it is crucial to get Mana Drain online as quickly as you possibly can.  I cannot stress enough how important the mana you are getting is.  I know you will not always have first turn Mana Drain mana, but that is why the deck runs Lotus Petal, to give it to you that little bit extra because it is absolutely amazing in this matchup when you are on the play and go land, Sapphire, or Lotus, or Lotus Petal.  It puts you so far ahead and overall the more advantages you gain off single cards, the better your chances for winning are. 
They will most likely be playing Chalice of the Void which can slow you down, but do not forget about Repeal it can bounce Chalice whenever you want.  The only cards you are sideboarding in in either of these two matchups are Energy Flux’s, all three of them.  They are that good.  Generally take out one Thirst for Knowledge, one Gifts Ungiven, and one Repeal.  Depending on the matchup though you may want to leave both Repeals in as a pre-emptive measure against Choke or other bothersome non-artifact cards.  In that case you could sideboard out Mana Vault.
Key card in this match up are again Mana Drain, Darkblast, Mox Sapphire, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, (all allow first turn Mana Drain so long as you have a land) and Gifts Ungiven.  Obviously after sideboard your best card is probably Energy Flux and you should always want to see it in your opening hand with enough mana to play it. 

Gooch Gifts vs. Gifts Variants

This is the last match I am going to go into.  This entire matchup is cut and dry almost to the same point as Slaver, get into counter wars over big spells, let some smaller spells with less overall effect to them resolve and always know how many cards your opponent is holding at all times.  This will help you when you are thinking of what counters he could have, obviously taking into account what cards have already been played is very good.  Of course depending on what Gifts deck they are running could very well let you decide what you are and aren’t playing around, while playing it is good to know what your opponent is playing, ask yourself questions like, did I see what he/she was playing before?  Have I seen a misdirection?  How many counters has he/she already played? 
A very big key in this matchup can also be to counter your opponents draw spells whenever possible.  If you have a couple of counters and can counter a Thirst I say go for it, limiting the amount of cards he or she sees is always a great idea.  If you are playing against Meandeck Gifts you really only have to counter Recall, but beware they run a lot of protection for such.  Overall this matchup is decided like any other Drain based matchup of being who wins the big counter war and who draws better.  Before boarding anyways.  I think your matchup greatly increases post board with Sundering Titan as again as I said before he has won me many a game. 
Sideboard out Darkblast, one Repeal, and Colossus.  Sideboard in two REBs and Sundering Titan.  Post board your plan goes from trying to win counter wars to resolving Tinker for Titan.  That is your entire goal post board, should you not be able to accomplish this however you still have the entire back bone of your starting deck so you can still combo your opponent out.  But more times than not this matchup comes down to who has the Tinker that resolves first, and if yours does, they then have less land in play to use to deal with your Titan. 
Key cards in this matchup are again much like the ones in the Slaver matchup and are Tinker, Mana Drain, Gifts Ungiven, Thirst For Knowledge, and post board Titan.  Again Sundering Titan is not just a key card in this matchup post board; it is the key card, the one card you want to get out there every game.  Sure he is a slower clock than Colossus, but he does leave your opponent with fewer resources to deal with him. 

So this is the basic deck that I have been playing now for most a year and this is how I have played most of my matchups, with very little change.  I have had great success and I have had some failures along the way, but nobody is perfect and everyone loses occasionally.  This deck fits my playstyle and that is what I like about it so much.  If you find a deck that fits your playstyle as well as this one seems to fit mine you can win just as often no matter what cards you are or arent running.  Any deck can win on any certain day, what it really is about though is finding a deck that can win for you everyday based on your experiences and your testing results. 
Pick up a deck someone else made, fine tune it like me and my team did, eventually every card in there will be a card you have a solid reason to play and every exclusion will also have a solid reason.  But above all else remember this the format never stops changing and evolving into something new, and your deck should do the exact same.  As you can very well see throughout this article my oppinion of certain cards changed with time as did my attitude towards them, change is always happening, just don’t get too far behind.


Gaagooch…
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 08:59:04 pm by Gaagooch » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2006, 02:25:21 pm »

Meandeck gifts, gold fishes ridiculously fast, and because of merchant scroll, has a great game vs. combo. This deck seems like it is trying to do what Control Slaver does and win later.

But for just one more mana than thirst, you can cast gifts. So why would you ever want to cast thirst unless you didn't have a gifts in your hand, and in that case, wouldn't you rather have merchant scroll, which is cheaper. So you can go get a gifts or ancestral or force or drain?

And I think when you have 4 Gifts, you can afford to use Gifts AS a draw spell, much like you would use Thirst. So not only is it your game winner, but it should be your draw spell after you ancestral
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2006, 11:44:34 pm »

Its all a play preferance as i said.  I am not going to argue thirst over scroll any longer, I understand the upside to scroll, and I see a greater upside in my metagame, the northeast, to be playing thirst.  Again it is the card that fits my play style best, and I am very unlikely to ever cut thirst for scroll, although as I said everything changes in time. 

As the three or four gifts, four is just too many.  I never want to see two gifts in my opening hand, and with running three I find that I do not have to burn a tutor to find them.  When I cast a gifts I want it to win me that game...right then, right there,  no questions asked.  I feel running more then three gifts is flawed.  Yes it makes your opponent make decisions, meaning that they have more chances to make mistakes, but I feel that three gifts and one FoF is perfect for this deck and my area. 

As for Goldfishing, I also goldfish ridiculously fast, as this deck at times plays more like a combo deck than a control deck.  You can argue that i am trying to take games longer, in fact that may be completely true that I am trying to win a long game, but in a longer game my opponent is forced to make more critical decisions on more spells that I or he plays, and on spells that force interaction between the players such as gifts or FoF.  You cannot depend on drawing the stone cold nuts in every game allowing you to beat every deck early.  Sometimes you have to play the long game, and I think this deck is very, very good in winning the long games.  However as I said it can win very early too, just like Meandeck Gifts.  As I said my origional love for the card gifts, and my deck itself really evolved from playing MD Gifts when it was first built. 

Gifts is a draw spell at its root, it can get you out of a deep hole, but it has raw power that can be abused.  I would rather use gifts to win the game, than to draw me a couple of cards that could possibly win the game.
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 02:29:49 pm »

My point is that Gifts serves both purposes. Winning the game and setting up the win. It is a tutor for four cards for four mana. It is absurd no matter when you cast it, but most especially if you can cast it early and get a bunch of mana.
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 06:01:38 pm »

I think that people are still cutting Scrolls in MDG shows how fundamentally misunderstood of a card Scroll is.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 08:46:14 pm »

I think that people are still cutting Scrolls in MDG shows how fundamentally misunderstood of a card Scroll is.

Scroll is demonics 2-5.  The card is amazing in Gifts because it searches pretty much everything in your deck.  I would often rather get the 1 card that I need that draw 3 discard some and hope I get the card that I need.  Gifts is also amazing; I can never see running fewer than 4.
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 11:54:50 pm »

I think that people are still cutting Scrolls in MDG shows how fundamentally misunderstood of a card Scroll is.
Again about merchant scroll, it is a personal play style of mine to not want to play merchant scroll.  I understand the vast uses the card has, and I agree now that the card is good, and probably should be in most gifts decks.  I however have tested the card, and I personally do not like playing it, im not saying my build is supperior in any way, because I have no proof as such.  Im not saying merchant scroll is a bad card because now I have seen it used more and more and it does help win.  When I started playing this deck my teammates and I agreed that scroll may not have been the best choice, and back when I first started playing this deck I would have said it was terrible.  Now seeing how useful it can be in many situations I understand that it warrants more testing by me if I should continue to play gifts.  As of right now I have set gifts aside for a new toy that I like very much.


I think that people are still cutting Scrolls in MDG shows how fundamentally misunderstood of a card Scroll is.

Scroll is demonics 2-5.  The card is amazing in Gifts because it searches pretty much everything in your deck.  I would often rather get the 1 card that I need that draw 3 discard some and hope I get the card that I need.  Gifts is also amazing; I can never see running fewer than 4.

I actually have to disagree with you on this point.  I do not see scroll as demonic 2-5, for such reasons as it doesnt get me the following cards.  Black Lotus, Tinker, Time Walk, Yawgmoths Will, and well any other card that is not a blue instant.  So it gets these cards Recall, random bounce, force, drain, and gifts.  Dont get me wrong those are all amazing cards it can get depending on the situation, but I will never view scroll as demonics 2-5, if it were I would play a set no questions asked.

My point is that Gifts serves both purposes. Winning the game and setting up the win. It is a tutor for four cards for four mana. It is absurd no matter when you cast it, but most especially if you can cast it early and get a bunch of mana.

I was going to put in a link to another post on here where someone mentioned that casting gifts for four mana is almost always never a good play, because I totally agree with that statement.  I do not use gifts to set myself up with mana unless it is an absolute need.  When I cast gifts I am not paying four mana to get two cards put into my hand, I am investing four mana to win the game on my next turn.  Using gifts for mana may be the right play sometimes, and in fact it may have worked out for you more often than not, but playing this deck for nearly a year I have had very few situations where getting four mana sources was ever the right play, short of me having will or a tutor for such in my hand and just wanting to ramp storm. 
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 01:27:00 am »




I actually have to disagree with you on this point.  I do not see scroll as demonic 2-5, for such reasons as it doesnt get me the following cards.  Black Lotus, Tinker, Time Walk, Yawgmoths Will, and well any other card that is not a blue instant.  So it gets these cards Recall, random bounce, force, drain, and gifts.  Dont get me wrong those are all amazing cards it can get depending on the situation, but I will never view scroll as demonics 2-5, if it were I would play a set no questions asked.


Merchant Scroll -> Mystical Tutor -> Demonic Tutor -> anything in your deck.

Also, you seem to be underestimating the Gifts for mana sources. Getting Lotus, Academy, Will, Tinker is pretty strong because the mana you get from that really sets up all the other cards in your hand.
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 02:09:52 am »

Merchant Scroll -> Mystical Tutor -> Demonic Tutor -> anything in your deck.

Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck. While I agree that Scroll in MDG performs a function similar to Demonic Tutor, this example definitely does not prove that point. Even though you can theoretically get any card with this chain, the mana inefficiency is horrendous. Merchant Scroll -> Mystical Tutor for Tinker, Will, or Walk is not an infrequent play, but Scroll -> Mystical Tutor -> Demonic Tutor takes so much mana and loses you so much tempo to get you essentially Black Lotus (really, there is no other card you would want to get that Mystical Tutor doesn't get). The chain only happens about 1 in every 15 games , and usually only during the endgame when Lotus needs binning for a Will turn.

The way that Scroll is similar to Demonic Tutor is in two instants that it is able to fetch: Ancestral Recall and Mystical Tutor. Between these two cards, Scroll is able to fetch any of 4 bombs (Tinker, Will, Walk, Recall) with a mana efficiency somewhere between Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor. That's about the best you can hope to get from an unrestricted tutor in Vintage. You can't get Lotus without going into mana-intensive contortions, but it is compensated for by having more Scrolls to play, and consequently more early-game Recalls that get you Lotus or equivalent acceleration.
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 02:44:01 am »

Most of my gifts piles gets a combination of these cards: Black lotus, mana crypt, tolarian academy, mox sapphire/jet.

I haven't testet Thirst for knowledge in gifts simply because as smemmen (sorry if i misspelled your name Smile) said: "The only place i want my moxen is on the board".

Only resource that holds me back when playing gifts is generally mana.

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 02:54:25 am »

dipoter, I was just showing that to prove a point. If you have Merch and you want Black Lotus, obviously you go get it with Gifts instead of a tutor chain.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 06:47:30 am »




I actually have to disagree with you on this point.  I do not see scroll as demonic 2-5, for such reasons as it doesnt get me the following cards.  Black Lotus, Tinker, Time Walk, Yawgmoths Will, and well any other card that is not a blue instant.  So it gets these cards Recall, random bounce, force, drain, and gifts.  Dont get me wrong those are all amazing cards it can get depending on the situation, but I will never view scroll as demonics 2-5, if it were I would play a set no questions asked.


Merchant Scroll -> Mystical Tutor -> Demonic Tutor -> anything in your deck.

Also, you seem to be underestimating the Gifts for mana sources. Getting Lotus, Academy, Will, Tinker is pretty strong because the mana you get from that really sets up all the other cards in your hand.

That chain does work, it just isnt very efficient in my eyes.  Also I said it is rarely correct to gifts for four mana sources, if you cast gifts and get tolarian, lotus, will and tinker, that only have two mana sources and is a pretty solid gifts, obv. depending on what you hold. 
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 06:52:22 am »

Against certain decks, Stax for instance, it is usually right to look for mana first. In addition to actually finding you mana, it makes Will better when you go off with the next gifts.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 02:14:58 pm »

It seems like if you can get a 4cc card off against stax then something has gone really wrong for the stax player. The best way to beat stax, rather is to not miss land drops, and when your hand is good enough rebuild eot and win. Or....Tinker really fast. Giftsing for mana sources against stax is good in some ways, but it leaves you with little gas, stax is all about repetitive threats and if you don't have the gas against them eventually they are going to widdle you down. Thirst is definitely better against stax than merchant scroll, it requires casting only one spell, you can do it during your upkeep, and it filters your hand of dead cards. Plus the casting cost is fairly efficient, unlike uu1 for scroll/ancestral or brainstorm, or u3 for FOF and gifts.
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 02:21:53 pm »

It seems like if you can get a 4cc card off against stax then something has gone really wrong for the stax player. The best way to beat stax, rather is to not miss land drops, and when your hand is good enough rebuild eot and win. Or....Tinker really fast. Giftsing for mana sources against stax is good in some ways, but it leaves you with little gas, stax is all about repetitive threats and if you don't have the gas against them eventually they are going to widdle you down. Thirst is definitely better against stax than merchant scroll, it requires casting only one spell, you can do it during your upkeep, and it filters your hand of dead cards. Plus the casting cost is fairly efficient, unlike uu1 for scroll/ancestral or brainstorm, or u3 for FOF and gifts.

That is pretty much the entire point I would have made in the case of playing against stax.  The one thing I think scroll has on thirst in this matchup is that it can find the bounce spell, the problem sometimes is that you can get locked out on your next turn with wasteland or strip mine in combination with chalice of the void, tangle wire, sphere of resistance, and trinisphere.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2006, 03:04:44 pm »

Gifting for 4 mana sources isn't a problem at all. It sets up a spectacular Will. What happens is that you get your acceleration, then you use other cards in your hand to set up the will. If you have Merch, you go Gifts again. If you have a tutor, you go find Will. Gifting for 4 mana sources lets you Tendrils out without needing to Rebuild. I do it fairly often.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2006, 03:15:47 pm »

Right, but it’s not always possible with things like chalice and sphere of resistance. I think it’s important to be flexible for your meta game and have a situational flexibility. Casting merchant scroll and playing whatever you scroll for is really difficult under sphere of resistance and tangle wire, because you have to do it during your main phase or over the course of a couple of turns.

I think it’s wrong to say that concretely one is better than the other, but depending on your meta game you would want to run a mix of the two based on what is present in high percentages.

Same goes for misdirection versus duress. If everyone else is playing misdirection duress is really strong, as misdirection can not do anything about it.

Deck building is not something that you can say x list is best all the time, you need to be flexible at points to win versus different strategies.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2006, 10:47:12 pm »

Gifting for 4 mana sources isn't a problem at all. It sets up a spectacular Will. What happens is that you get your acceleration, then you use other cards in your hand to set up the will. If you have Merch, you go Gifts again. If you have a tutor, you go find Will. Gifting for 4 mana sources lets you Tendrils out without needing to Rebuild. I do it fairly often.

I really just think casting gifts for 4 mana sources is fundamentally flawed, unless you are holding yawgs or a tutor, those are some of the situations when it is a better play.  But even then casting four moxen, tutoring for will, willing, tutoring for tendrills, and casting such is only eight storm, yes you more than likely have a few cards in your graveyard you can play.  But I usually find it much easier to use rebuild as a storm enabler, and it serves its purpose in my deck as a way to stop stax, and or win me the game.  And yet again im going to go back to the point of thirst vs scroll being a personal thing to which many players have different feelings, and it is also sometimes meta game dependant as cross said. 


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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2006, 10:49:03 pm »

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I really just think casting gifts for 4 mana sources is fundamentally flawed

I cannot disagree more.  A Gifts for 4 mana sources means any business spell you draw is the game.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2006, 10:53:22 pm »

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I really just think casting gifts for 4 mana sources is fundamentally flawed

I cannot disagree more.  A Gifts for 4 mana sources means any business spell you draw is the game.

Exactly. Gifting with the intent of getting mana (Will Tinker Academy Ring) is also very very strong. Control mirrors are won and lost on mana superiority. Having 4 more mana on your mainphase means that Brainstorm is a lot stronger.

Also, Gifting for Moxes against Stax is a VERY strong play.
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2006, 11:09:42 pm »

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I really just think casting gifts for 4 mana sources is fundamentally flawed

I cannot disagree more.  A Gifts for 4 mana sources means any business spell you draw is the game.

Yes but you are now depending on drawing a business spell, yes I understand the deck has a lot of them, I have played it for a year.  But why not gifts for the business spells with lotus or something along those lines, isnt that a better play 99% of the time.  Because I know that I do not want to gifts for four mana sources and draw a mana source, and what happens if you draw a card disadvantage tutor, you are giving your opponent an extra turn for nothing, I think giving my opponents extra turns is a bad play.  Even with all of your mana in play if you topdeck a scroll you are going to get what, not a counter because that doesnt help you win, if you havent gotten ancestral yet thats the obv choice, but otherwise its another gifts?  So you have now had to use two gifts to win one game, sometimes it will take that but usually gifts tutors up four pretty broken cards and should you be able to do minimal amounts of math on your turn you should be able to win the game very easily.  Like lets say I gifts for will, recoup, lotus, tolarian.  Depending on the artifacts I have in play I would assume my opponent will decide between giving me lotus and academy, and im pretty sure most of the time I am getting recoup, if not its ridiculous.mana with broken spells.  its costs me 5 mana to flashback will on my turn, and I have a lotus and any other moxen I have discarded to thirst.  Yes I am depending on a few things to have happened already or to happen in the future, but aren't you depending on drawing a business spell post gifts for four mana sources.  The deck can win in so many different ways with different combinations of cards sometimes without even casting a gift.  But I think gifting for four mana sources is under utilizing the raw power of this card, obv. with certain situations aside.

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I really just think casting gifts for 4 mana sources is fundamentally flawed

I cannot disagree more.  A Gifts for 4 mana sources means any business spell you draw is the game.

Exactly. Gifting with the intent of getting mana (Will Tinker Academy Ring) is also very very strong. Control mirrors are won and lost on mana superiority. Having 4 more mana on your mainphase means that Brainstorm is a lot stronger.

Also, Gifting for Moxes against Stax is a VERY strong play.

This post was put up while I was writing my reply, but gifting for moxes against stax is good, if they dont have out a cotv, sor, or trini.  And you say will, tinker, academy, ring, that is clearly not four mana sources, because it has two bombs in it.  I know that you know that as you have also played gifts for a long time, and I have watched you play.  You are a very competent player, im obv. not arguing with that point.  Actually that is pretty off topic, and I dont know what I was going to say after that.  Sorry for wasting your time.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2006, 11:22:00 pm »

Oh I definitely don't think you're wasting my time! I like talking about Gifts plays.

Sometimes you Gift for mana sources but you don't go for 4 of them. One of the skills in Gifts is being able to "force' cards into your hand. Getting AR and Walk along with 2 mana sources is a good way to force them into your hand. One of the needed skills in Gifts is being patient that you will get what you need. By that I mean that you can start to set your combo up in the graveyard if you want and just focus on stabilizing, knowing that you'll draw or Gift into that DT or Recoup to seal the deal.
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2006, 11:31:50 pm »

Oh I definitely don't think you're wasting my time! I like talking about Gifts plays.

Sometimes you Gift for mana sources but you don't go for 4 of them. One of the skills in Gifts is being able to "force' cards into your hand. Getting AR and Walk along with 2 mana sources is a good way to force them into your hand. One of the needed skills in Gifts is being patient that you will get what you need. By that I mean that you can start to set your combo up in the graveyard if you want and just focus on stabilizing, knowing that you'll draw or Gift into that DT or Recoup to seal the deal.

I could not agree more...I do find myself depending on drawing something rather broken more often than not.  I also have to say that I really like talking about playing gifts especially now that I have set it aside for a deck called something like pitchlong, because I love combo, and by combo I mean tendrills of agony...yes everyone on tmd, I have just admitted to being in love with a piece of cardboard, I mean come on why else would I have been playing it in gifts maindeck for a year?  I am very glad to have gotten responses on this post and such, it has made me think of different cards and different situations that could come up at any point.  I can assure you that when I do play gifts again I will test scrolls in the deck, maybe without thirst, maybe with a mix of both, who knows.  I may be going out on a limb here but I have found that gifts can present situtaions with similar, if not harder choices that pitchlong at times.  Have you ever found situations like this to be present?
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2006, 11:33:47 pm »

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I may be going out on a limb here but I have found that gifts can present situtaions with similar, if not harder choices that pitchlong at times.  Have you ever found situations like this to be present?

I don't think you will find one person that disagrees with you.  Gifts is insanely more complicated to play perfectly.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2006, 11:42:13 pm »

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Do you play thirst or do you play scroll, or is it something of a mixture of the two, because I for some reason cannot remember back to boston and our testing.

I played 3 merchant scrolls, but I am beginning to question if that number is correct. Against control decks it was bad because I was always in fear of misdirection, and I found myself gassed out sometimes. Impulse may not be a bad replacement, but that’s something worth testing.
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2006, 02:33:42 am »

IMO, you never go below 4 Scrolls, you just have to understand them.

If you're fearing MisD, go get Mana Drain or FOW with your scroll and then you can *wait* for the broken stuff to come along, since you've bought yourself a buffer. You can also Merch for FOF if you sense MisD, which is a truly insane spell.

Impulse replacing Merch doesn't seem right-- you're trading a card that gets most everything relevant in your deck for something that cantrips and doesn't immediately get you something relevant. I can't see myself Scrolling for Impulse that much-- 2UU is Concentrate-level mana! I know Randy Buehler ran a single Scroll in his Gifts for awhile; can't remember if he cut a MisD or a Merch, but I think it was the former.

I've said it before, but Merch doesn't have an auto-target. I often find Merch for FOW on turn 1 to be really safe, especially over getting AR. Finding Drain with Merch means that you have a psychological threat in your hand and if you successfully Drain something, you'll likely win with the rest of your hand. That's pretty strong.
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2006, 10:19:53 am »

I agree with the fact that Scroll is just an insane card in Gifted. It has one weakness though, that causes problems in connection with the prevalance of Misdirections in the format atm. It can not dig for MANA. Pretty much the only thing I loose to when playing Gifted (aside from the mirror or turn1 kills with backup FoW) is not finding my fourth mana in time. And while Scrolling for Brainstorm is a possibility here, it is not really a good solution because of the time/mana it takes. This is the one reason why I'm looking into playing only three Scrolls myself, atm I'm thinking about Night's Whisper, but not being blue kind of sucks. TfK on the other hand I still hate, just because it dumps my mana and eats up 3 mana when I'd like my fixing at 2.

As for the mana-Gifts, it's something I regularly use and I think it's one of Gifts most powerful options. After all, when you have enough mana, you almost always win with this deck. You should need only one Gifts to win, in theory that's true. But usually that theory assumes you got your mana set-up before casting Gifts, and therefore is true for the TfK decks that have Gifts as a finisher. In a really Gifts-based Gifts-deck your first Gifts is very often setup, either mana or card-drawing/tutors, followed by the second Gifts for the win, in my experience at least.

On the Side-issue: As for the issue of complicatedness, I agree that the decisions surrounding Gifts itself are harder than basicly any single decision in Long variants. On the other hand game-losses resulting from even the most slight errors (like discarding Bargain over Desire with two lands and 0 mana in hand) are far more common for Long than for Gifts decks. So in the end Gifts is harder to play perfectly, but as a compensation you have to play Long far more perfectly to actually keep winning. So for all practical purposes, Long remains the hardest deck to play, imo. Hey, there's a reason other than Drains coolness why I decided to return to Gifts after my late dive into both Grim-decks :p .
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2006, 11:55:38 am »

I agree with the fact that Scroll is just an insane card in Gifted. It has one weakness though, that causes problems in connection with the prevalance of Misdirections in the format atm. It can not dig for MANA. Pretty much the only thing I loose to when playing Gifted (aside from the mirror or turn1 kills with backup FoW) is not finding my fourth mana in time. And while Scrolling for Brainstorm is a possibility here, it is not really a good solution because of the time/mana it takes. This is the one reason why I'm looking into playing only three Scrolls myself, atm I'm thinking about Night's Whisper, but not being blue kind of sucks. TfK on the other hand I still hate, just because it dumps my mana and eats up 3 mana when I'd like my fixing at 2.



Im sorry I dont quite see how scroll is fixing, can you possibly explain that to me more.  The way I see it scroll gets you a card out of your deck that can potentially fix your mana problems, like a brainstorm or ar if you havent used it already.  But lets say you have exactly three mana up, wouldnt topdecking a thirst be better than a scroll?  I mean yes you could scroll for brainstorm, but that has the same converted mana cost as one thirst, youve used two cards, and if that brainstorm really sucks, you have to draw out of it, where as if I see three bad cards I just discard two of them at worst.
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diopter
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2006, 01:31:40 pm »

Im sorry I dont quite see how scroll is fixing, can you possibly explain that to me more.

Scroll ... can not dig for MANA.

I'm thinking about Night's Whisper

He's referring to Night's Whisper. He wants his mana fixing at 2, but Scroll is not cutting it for him.
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kombat
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2006, 01:36:55 pm »

Quote from: Gaagooch
casting gifts for four mana is almost always never a good play

I think the word you were looking for was "rarely."  Smile
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