Optimizing Control Slaver in the Fall 2k6 metagame

[FlamingCloud]

I don't really think of CS as a deck that has a great fish match up, ofcourse this is depending on version and sideboard for both decks heavily.  However it is overall much better for CS than it is for long or gifts. 

This appraisal is spot-on for a lot of builds, but the key to your statement is the fact that your CS build doesn't have to have such a bad matchup.  I believe that ancestral is quite important in the fish, long, and gifts matchups.  Duressing away the ancestral in these matchups does provide some ability to fight the matchup, but misdirection on the cast ancestral actually swings the matchup to your favor.  Misdirection is also active turn 0, as opposed to duress not only costing a mana but also preventing the full momentum swing that ancestral recall can provide to control slaver.

Obviously Misdirecting a recall is essentially game over versus fish, but really thats 1 card in 60 for them and 1-2 in 60 for you, seriously rare situation when they have nearly no tutoring.  I can't imagine duress is any good in the matchup, can't hit lands or creatures, and their biggest threats come down turn 1-3 and then your duress went from bad to nearly dead.  I can't see duress maindeck being good in anything but high high control/combo meta, it is just so awful versus stax/fish/ichorid/etc. 

What I mean to say is preboard is from 40-60 to 60-40 versus fish depending on the versions.  The matchup is never is my opinion great, and never really awful.  Postboard I think it is mostly dependant on the CS players sideboard 4-6 slots of pure fish/aggro hate(ftk, razormaze masticore, pyroclasms, massacres) will really swing it CS's way more than anything Fish could bring in I think, worst cast scenario really seems to be crypts and old men with both players bringing in rebs.  Ofcourse if the CS deck has none of that stuff in the board it will most likely become really bad, and committing too much to the fish matchup will ofcourse hurt oher match ups.  Overall I would say most CS decks have a favorable game 2/3 versus most fish decks, and a unfavourable game 1.

[GUnit]

Fish is not a matchup I'm afraid of, and although it gets a few SB slots, the maindeck (beyond the manabase) pretty much ignores that it exists. The exception to this is the trike/duplicant/triskelavus slot (haven't tested trikeybus yet, although I picked one up the other day). When I'm deciding on the list that I'm going to bring to a tournament I decide which decks are likely to show up and of those decks I focus most of my attention on the toughest matchups. Lately this has been MDG and grim/pitch long, hence the maindeck duo of misdirections.

[McBain]

When I'm deciding on the list that I'm going to bring to a tournament I decide which decks are likely to show up and of those decks I focus most of my attention on the toughest matchups. Lately this has been MDG and grim/pitch long, hence the maindeck duo of misdirections.

Well said, i think that trickbind and wipe away will help in these matchups. Grim long being the only current one to have Md duress to deal with either card. I think that a slaver player holding either card is a very powerful thing vs a gifts deck, it allows you to get the turns you need to do things, ie activate slaver.

[forests failed you]

That really doesn't solve the problem against Gifts.

Post board they are going to have Duress.  Not to mention they can Tinker, Colossus, Walk, Walk and ignore the fact that you brought in Trickbind if they want too.

Seriously, it is very necessary to have PROACTIVE threats in these kinds of match ups.  Doing nothing is an unacceptable stratagy against fast decks.  Duress, Tormod's Crypt and Sphere of Resistence are the best possible tools against these styles of decks because they force a combo player to interact with you.  I think the role of Misdirection in a combo control deck is being misunderstood.  The purpose of Misdirection as a card, that is the reason one would play it in an optimized deck, is to push aside early counterspells, ie force of will, in order to resolve bombs quickly and win.  Meandeck Gifts wants it because it is trying to EOT Gifts untap and win.  Slaver isn't trying to push business through in these match ups, because its business isn't as significant early.  What card are you trying to push through, TFK?

Not to mention Misdirection just sits in your hand until they have already built up a hand that can play through it.  Yes, it picks up random Recalls, and that is a cute trick... But that isn't why one would play the card in a deck; its an afterthought bonus.

Slaver decks want to force interaction, that is what Slaver does.  It is a combo control deck with board presence.  That is what seperates it from Gifts, and makes it a worthy choice for tournament play.  The more interactive you try and make Slaver, the more you compromise its biggest strength.  ImO

[wraith985]

It's also worth noting that siding in Trickbind against a Long deck is pretty much the definition of losing the sideboard war, because Long decks are probably bringing in Xantid Swarms. That's the same reason Stifle doesn't see play now - not because you can't force it through (because with two counters, you WILL force it through), but because it does nothing in the face of Xantid Swarm (and not doing anything vs. DSC either is another significant liability)

[Namingway]

A quick question: Would you play Control Slaver in a metagame of mostly TPS and Stax? Why/Why not?

[FlamingCloud]

A quick question: Would you play Control Slaver in a metagame of mostly TPS and Stax? Why/Why not?

Are there actually metas that contain a large portion of TPS? Is this europe? I have found the percentage of players that play TPS is so low that it isn't worth testing the match, and yes, CS is good versus stax.

[Namingway]

Are there actually metas that contain a large portion of TPS? Is this europe? I have found the percentage of players that play TPS is so low that it isn't worth testing the match, and yes, CS is good versus stax.

Well, there are quite a few here in Sweden. At least there was some a few months ago, and from what I've heard, it hasn't changed that much.

[Implacable]

Are there actually metas that contain a large portion of TPS? Is this europe? I have found the percentage of players that play TPS is so low that it isn't worth testing the match, and yes, CS is good versus stax.

Well, there are quite a few here in Sweden. At least there was some a few months ago, and from what I've heard, it hasn't changed that much.

Now, this may be the impetus for a seperate thread, but I was wondering why that is?  I mean, TPS has been largely dismissed here in the States as inferior to IT, Grim, and Pitch.  Why would you choose to run TPS over faster, more resilient Tendrils builds?

[forests failed you]

He's probably just talking about a hybrid of Pitch Long.  Perhaps, without Misdirections.  Eseentially, the question is:     Is Slaver good in a Prision / Como meta/

The answer is probably.

There are more factors that will determine exactly how the meta is made up.  However, more than likely if there is a lot of prision floating around it will 'tend' to beat the combo back.  Or at least keep it difficult for the combo decks to x-o  and draw into top eight.  When this happens the combo decks (which tend to prefer to ride the winner bracket) will end up playing worse match ups.  Slaver seems like a fine choice as long as you are packing hate for the combo matches.  Also note that Spheres are not the best choice for this meta game, because the Tendrils players will likely have a strong board against artifacts. I would try a 3 Duress, 2 REB, 1 Crypt, 2 Envelop plan.

[Namingway]

And the maindeck? Night's Whisper or Merchant Scroll? I think I prefer Merchant Scroll, since I can tutor up a FoW 1st turn vs. Combo. Night's Whisper is generally better in a control metagame, from what I've heard. Also, the Duresses in the sideboard would stress the manabase a little more than necessary, forcing me to fetch an early Underground Sea, and I don't want to invite my opponent to Waste my lands if it isn't absolutely necessary. Maybe Trickbind would do the trick? (no pun intended )
I was thinking of playing Meandeck Gifts before, but since it apparently has a worse Stax matchup, I'm considering switching to CS. Anyone with personal experiences on MDGifts's Stax matchup that could tell me if this is really as true as I've heard?

Btw, this is an example of a Swedish TPS deck (from SvenskaMagic.com):

ENCHANTMENTS (2)
1   Necropotence
1   Yawgmoth’s Bargain

    SORCERIES (13)
1   Tinker
1   Time Walk
1   Timetwister
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth’s Will
1   Time Spiral
2   Tendrils of Agony
4   Duress
1   Mind’s Desire
     INSTANTS (19)
4   Force of Will
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Ancestral Recall
2   Rebuild
4   Brainstorm
4   Dark Ritual
1   Cunning Wish
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Gifts Ungiven
   
     ARTIFACTS (11)
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus
1   Mana Vault
1   Memory Jar

    LAND (15)
2   Underground Sea
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Polluted Delta
1   Flooded Strand
5   Island
2   Swamp
   
    SIDEBOARD
1   Rebuild
1   Coffin Purge
1   Frantic Search
1   Stifle
1   Darkblast
1   Chain of Vapor
1   Darksteel Colossus
1   Snuff Out
1   Rushing River
2   Tormod’s Crypt
1   Echoing Truth
1   Brain Freeze
2   Defense Grid

No Misdirections or Grim Tutors here. I don't know how many Grim Tutors there are in Sweden, probably very, very few, as I've never seen anyone play it (or trade it, for that matter).

[McBain]

what about wipe away, i think this is a better card than echoing truth, sure its one more blue, but its soo much more. In a stax/fish matchup that one can be more difficult, and it also doesnt have the ablitly to bounce multiple stax/wire/mages ect. Does this still warrent play over e.truth, or is Split second just a fancy uneeded machanic in slaver.

[zeus-online]

Why would you add wipe away to slaver?

Goblin welder takes care of DSC (If they use it against slaver, which i personally wouldn't do unless its turn 1 or i'm royaly screwed already)
Against stax echoing truth is better, cause they can't counter anyway.
Against fish i'd rather have truth cause its cheaper and they're probably not gonna counter it anyway.
Against gifts i probably won't need any bounce spells, so why bother?
Against any combo deck 1UU is alot, and bounce isn't all that important.....it would be kinda funny against dragon, except ofcourse, that they run duress and can kill you before 1UU is available.

I honestly don't see wipe away adding anything to control slaver.

/Zeus

[McBain]

good points vs wipe away, well put.

One other thing i have been testing is running
1 trisk
1 triskavus

This can win battles vs stax and fish. Of course having infinite slaver is nice, but hardly ever needed.
Jotun grunt can still be a problem opposed to duplicant.
I will post more later, i have to run atm

[Legato2471]

I love the Control Slaver deck, but I don't have thousands of dollars at my disposal to get any of the Power 9 cards. Is it still possible to play competatively without them in a Type 1 Environment? Do some Type 1 Tournaments allow use of proxies to even things out for players without them?

[InfinityCircuit]

I love the Control Slaver deck, but I don't have thousands of dollars at my disposal to get any of the Power 9 cards. Is it still possible to play competatively without them in a Type 1 Environment? Do some Type 1 Tournaments allow use of proxies to even things out for players without them?

It depends on where you live.  In the United States, most tournaments allow ten proxies, with some smaller tournaments allowing up to fifteen proxies for a small fee.  In Europe, however, most tournaments are non-proxy and force you to only use cards you own.

It is probably impossible to play Control Slaver in a non-proxy environment because Control Slaver relies on its Moxen to Weld out for big artifacts--without Moxen you have very little to weld and very little to do.  This is why decks like Control Slaver have no showing in Legacy.

[Legato2471]

Alright, well I live in the US so that's good that I can use proxies in most tournaments. Thanks.

[Namingway]

Alright, so this is my decklist that I've been working on:
(metagamed to beat storm/stax)

2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
2 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt

3 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Demonic Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 ????

I'm pretty happy with the maindeck so far. I'd like to fit a 4th Welder in there, but I don't know what to remove.
Memory Jar gives insane board advantage most of the time (I think I played 2 Moxen, Lotus and Welder off a Jar once, plus Mindslaver in the bin via Thirst for Knowledge), so that's an auto-include for me.
Also, Merchant Scroll gives great game vs. Combo, and also allows you to find that critical Thirst or Brainstorm.
The sideboard is a little worse. I like Threads, mainly vs. Fish, but it can also be used on an opposing Welder vs. Stax. Although I guess you have better stuff vs. Stax than Threads.
I'm a little unsure of the Darkblasts. They're good vs. Stax and Fish (and the mirror), but it seems I already have enough vs. those two decks.
Also, I have 2 open SB slots. Any suggestions?

[Metman]

I'm pretty happy with the maindeck so far. I'd like to fit a 4th Welder in there, but I don't know what to remove.
Memory Jar gives insane board advantage most of the time (I think I played 2 Moxen, Lotus and Welder off a Jar once, plus Mindslaver in the bin via Thirst for Knowledge), so that's an auto-include for me.
Also, Merchant Scroll gives great game vs. Combo, and also allows you to find that critical Thirst or Brainstorm.
The sideboard is a little worse. I like Threads, mainly vs. Fish, but it can also be used on an opposing Welder vs. Stax. Although I guess you have better stuff vs. Stax than Threads.
I'm a little unsure of the Darkblasts. They're good vs. Stax and Fish (and the mirror), but it seems I already have enough vs. those two decks.
Also, I have 2 open SB slots. Any suggestions?

The sideboard is totally metagame dependent so it really depends on what you face a lot of in your area.  I see a lot of fish and slaver, some stax and oath.  Pitch long has done well lately in my area as well so I have to compensate for that match a little too.  I feel that I am competant enough to do pretty well in the mirror so my toughest match ups are long, fish, and oath.  Bounce is always a good catch all SB slot.  I've also recently really come to love Razormane Masticore in the deck.  I rarely find fish countering my Welders and Meddling Mage never names it.  A hardcasted or welded in Masticore is a one sided wrecking ball.  It bops each of their creatures sans the Grunt but it beats it in the attack phase.  Try testing it; it's easy to side in considering you may have big dead artifacts in your deck after game one.  Mindslaver is often weak against the matchup so I side at least one out.  Massacre is also a great card to beat up on fish.  If I were to keep the sideboard you currently have I would toss in the 4th Goblin Welder and Razormane Masticore. 

[Implacable]

Alright, so this is my decklist that I've been working on:
(metagamed to beat storm/stax)

2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
2 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt

3 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Demonic Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 ????

I'm pretty happy with the maindeck so far. I'd like to fit a 4th Welder in there, but I don't know what to remove.
Memory Jar gives insane board advantage most of the time (I think I played 2 Moxen, Lotus and Welder off a Jar once, plus Mindslaver in the bin via Thirst for Knowledge), so that's an auto-include for me.
Also, Merchant Scroll gives great game vs. Combo, and also allows you to find that critical Thirst or Brainstorm.
The sideboard is a little worse. I like Threads, mainly vs. Fish, but it can also be used on an opposing Welder vs. Stax. Although I guess you have better stuff vs. Stax than Threads.
I'm a little unsure of the Darkblasts. They're good vs. Stax and Fish (and the mirror), but it seems I already have enough vs. those two decks.
Also, I have 2 open SB slots. Any suggestions?

If you really like Jar, you might want to check out FFY's Burning Slaver.  I think that the concept of adding a combo element to Control Slaver is an excellent, because that deck above all others can simultaneously abuse Jar and Will.  There should be a thread around here somewhere.  If you're going to run Scrolls, considered puting one Rebuild maindeck.  It's a great silver bullet against both Fish and Slaver.

[forests failed you]

I think that if you are going to play merchant scroll you MUST at least consider playing either Gifts or Fact or Fiction in the maindeck.

Once you have fished out Recall, and you topdeck Scroll in a close game you really need an over the top powerful spell to go find.  That is why it is so good in Gifts, every scroll you draw gets Gifts or countermagic. 

[Metman]

I think that if you are going to play merchant scroll you MUST at least consider playing either Gifts or Fact or Fiction in the maindeck.

Once you have fished out Recall, and you topdeck Scroll in a close game you really need an over the top powerful spell to go find.  That is why it is so good in Gifts, every scroll you draw gets Gifts or countermagic. 

I would definately second this.  I have always liked Gifts in Slaver.  My build currently runs two Scrolls and a Gifts.  Sometimes you need to Scroll up something that will put the game over the top in your favor.  Having to Scroll up a Brainstorm or more countermagic sucks in the late game when you need to find a way to win now.  I think Gifts does this better than most other options. 

[Namingway]

On the other hand, this deck already has an incredibly strong lategame. Wouldn't it be a little overkill to play Gifts Ungiven, then?
That said, it could still be good.

[forests failed you]

How often is it really about late game, and how often is it turn five after a counter war and you have a scroll and need to do something gassy while your opponent is tapped out.  When I played Slaver I ran Mystical and Vamp in place of the scrolls but they served the same function.  At an oppurtune moment I could gas up and win.

I think Gifts has mad synergy with the deck.  The fact that it can be a tutor for robots with Welder is strong, not to mention it can allow you to go off with Will.  I really think Gifts is one of the most powerful effects in Vintage right now.  Up there close to Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker.  Resolved Gifts is very often game over, much in the same way TInker or Will do the same thing.

[Metman]

Gifts has been everything and a bag of chips in Slaver for me.  Gifts isn't just a great mid to late game card.  If you get an accelerated hand and can drop Gifts at the end of your opponents 2nd or 3rd turn with FoW back up you are well on your way to winning the match.  Gifts is such a versitile card in Slaver I can't see myself cutting it from the MD.  Slaver relies so heavily on Yawg and Tinker.  Gifts will find one or both for you when you need it.  With Scrolls in the MD I think Gifts is almost an auto include.

[warble]

Gifts in CS works without scroll, and it works really friggin' well.  It will only get stronger once the misdirections make it into CS.

CS from SCG

[Metman]

Gifts in CS works without scroll, and it works really friggin' well.  It will only get stronger once the misdirections make it into CS.

CS from SCG

I've yet to exercise the idea of Charbelcher/Severance in Slaver.  I can see how it could work well but the MD Severance seems weak a lot of the time.  Has this been an issue, and how has it treated your mana base considering the low basic count as well as missing at least one fetch?  How often did you find yourself tinkering or searching out the Belcher for the win? 

[forests failed you]

I mean you could just play Burning Wish...

And then you wouldn't have two dead cards that are not that good in your deck, and an alternate win condition, and a tutor for situational answers...

AND a very busted card that gets back Time Walk when you Recoup it.  Recoup Burning Wish is nuts in Slaver.

[Khahan]

I actually just added Goblin charbelcher to my decklist to play test it. I am not bothering with mana severance as I feel too often it would be a dead card. At the very worst, charbelcher can be a consistent source of damage, it can act as creature removal, it can win over the course of a few turns.  It would almost act as a second triskelion. I am not looking at it as a 'win now' condition, but more of a control card that can also win games. 

But, like I said, I just added it and have not played it yet. Only testing will tell.

As for burning wish, I started w/ the burning slaver decklist and then took out burning wish for a maindeck tendrils. To be honest, I have not missed it. If I'm going off w/ tendrils, I have the storm count. I don't need the wish for an extra spell. With that said, why add an extra set of colored mana to my combo needs by running wish (I also don't like running wish boards as a personal preference).

I should be posting my version pretty soon. I took it to blue bell this past weekend. I didn't do well. But I attribute it to 2 things: I drew like shit (I mulliganed to 5 on 3 seperate occasions and 2 games in a row I didn't have a single land in my opening hand of 7) and I made a few play mistakes that I had no business making. Stupid simple things that my 5 year old would have seen.  Instead of 1-3, if not for those 2 mistakes in different rounds, I would have been 3-1. In both instances, if I hadn't made the mistakes, I would have won that round.

[warble]

How often did you find yourself tinkering or searching out the Belcher for the win? 

Belcher is better utility in CS because it will take care of the board and fast aggro, it doesn't suck up one+ sideboard slot, and you don't care if it goes to the graveyard or hand.  All of those are bonuses that burning wish doesn't have.  Big bonuses when you don't have recoup and you're playing gifts.  The other configuration of that specific deck has -1 Charbelcher -1 Mana Severance, +1 Tendrils of Agony +1 Rebuild.  They play almost identically but the belcher win requires less colored mana, and as black is a premium in CS I chose belcher.  Just remember to put the 4th Underground Sea in if running ToA+Rebuild.

Mana bases are personal choice, and always a risk.  One thing that is standard in my lists is one basic island.

Belcher won approximately 20% of the games; about the same number that DsC won.  Mindslaver won over 50% of them, and is still the key to the deck.  The secret is that the 20% won by belcher would have been lost if I hadn't been running belcher and severance, and were usually won with either 0 or 1 mana to spare...the tight ones...