Artificial Fish

[WhiteWolf]

I was fooling around with ShopAggro and decided to put 4 Confidants and 4 Grunts in the deck. In my limited testing it seems to show some promise.

Artificial Fish

Beats – 14

4 Dark Confidant
4 Jötun Grunt
4 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore

Utility – 3

1 Time Walk
2 Crucible of Worlds

Disrupt – 17

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

Search – 2

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Draw – 1

1 Ancestral Recall

Mana – 23 (excluding strips)

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duplicant
…


It’s a lot like Fish actually …

The creatures are pretty logical inclusions. The Jötun Grunts replace the usual Su-Chis. They have the same relative cost (if you count Workshop for Su-Chi) but Grunt has a nice disrupting ability against Welder, Will, … I chose the Razormanes above Triskelions because of the Null Rods and the draw of Confidant.

The disruption is also pretty classic: Chalices and Rods to screw with artifact mana and Wires to tap Islands, blockers, …

The mana-base seems pretty stable and the fetchlands make good food for Grunt.

So what do you think of this deck-idea and do you have some suggestions for the sideboard?

WhiteWolf

[Duncan]

How did the confidants work out for you? It seems like the average cc of your deck is a bit higher than most decks playing confidant. The grunts look interesting, have you had any problems considering you're running less basics and are more vulnerable to Titan?

- Duncan

[warwizard87]

Seams the biggest problem you might have is in the mulligans. Seams like your opening your self to have alot of workshop/no on color mana but guys that need colord mana hands and the plenty of colored mana hands but no work shop with a few big bulky 4-5 cost artifact men. Otherwise looks like a pretty decent hybrid of fish and some build of workshop aggro.

I have never really cared if Bob hits me for a few damage every now and then, normaly the card he gets me is worth the life loss (but god i hate hitting DSC frowns).

[WhiteWolf]

As I already said I only did some limited testing (hopefully more tomorrow) but these are my observations:

- The Confidant damage isn’t that high. In fact I think it’s lower than some of the Suicide Stax decks running around. On top of that, this deck is quicker/more aggro than those decks wich lessens the danger of the damage. The most expensive things are the Juggernauts en Razormanes.

- To be honest I didn’t have enough testing under my belt to really say something about the Titan-vulnerability.

- I haven’t had any problems getting the right mana (Shop or color). There are 11 black, 11 white and 9 blue sources. And you’d be surprised how often you can play a Juggernaut with colour land + assorted artifact mana on the first turn. By the way, I’d rather play a Confidant, Rod, Chalice, … first turn and follow it up with a Juggernaut the second turn. Of course, more dedicated testing against stax and the like could reveal some mana problems. I’ll keep you posted.

Does anyone have some sideboard suggestions?

WhiteWolf

[Outlaw]

Brassman actually played a nearly identiical list to the one that you posted to a top 4 finish a few months back, you may want to try and get ahold of him and see what he had to say about the deck.

[zulander]

I'd recomend sensei's divining top for any deck with confidants that also runs high CMC's

[klu]

the average cost in not that superior to most of decks : this one runs only 2 5Cc spells and more 3 Cc.

I made a similar list but i've opted for some options :
only 3 workshop cause you don't absolutely need it cause of the number of colored spells
only 3 waste cause most decks runs many basics
i would not play the masticors for the "only 3 shop" reason.
i would run only 3 grunts because it's a very bad first turn drop..
i may prefer jitte raze than null rods but that depends on the metagame you are evolving in.
tolarian academy is often a bad card since you run very few high Cc. I would prefer stabilizing the mana base with more colored lands/fetch.
i've tried some bazaar for it's great synergie with confidant and the fact it gives you a way to entertain the grunts. i used to play 2 but 3 may be the good number.

my 2 cents,
kLu

[Whatever Works]

I tried a similar list and I find that 4 Jontun Grunt to much b/c of graveyard removal can often hurt your ability to use Crucible, and the fact that you dont have to many cards that hit the graveyard.

Kyle

[WhiteWolf]

Outlaw: Seems I need to contact Brassman about that list. Thanks for the heads up!

zulander: I would play Sensei top if it wasn't for Null Rod in the deck.

Whatever Works: One Grunt was already on the could-be-cut list. Not because of the Crucible interaction but because they're a bad first (and even second) play. CoWs were the last 2 cards I added. They used to be - untested - In the Eye of Chaos. I believe CoW is less needed in ShopAggro than in Stax.

klu: I could see 3 Wastes but 3 Workshops? Shop is a 4 or nothing card. The Razormanes were the best cards in testing (granted, this was mostly against aggro type decks) and the prime Tinker-target. I thought about Jitte but I liked the Rods more. Indeed a metagame choice although Null Rod is always a good card if your deck can have them. The Academy stays for the same reason as the Shops. The Bazaars are a nice idea. I'm going to try two of them. You could also be right about the 3 Grunts (see above).

WhiteWolf

[zulander]

Yeah, in all of my testin regardless of the deck, I have found that 3 grunts was the best. And for me persoally I love SDT because it allows you to play your 2nd Confidant without worrying about life loss. However I'd agree that in type 1 null rod is usually better than the ability to play a second confidant.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, I am very slow to jump on any deck's bandwagon, but I do like this list. It seems to play pretty well as long as you can keep mulliganing to a minimum. I won't lay down MDG or PitchLong for it, but it is promising and fun as hell to play.

Peace,
Dave

[arcanis2000]

I think I might proxie this up and test it.  It looks like it could be decent.  I have to agree about the academy though, I just don't see how much use it could be.

[nataz]

when I was tinkering around with the brassman/travs lists I ended up with tomb over workshop. That allowed me to explore 3 colors while still taking advantage of the disruptive artifacts (chalice, wire, SOR, null rod, trini, etc.). I also ended up runing Hide/Seek to help off set any lifeloss and act as a catch all answer to oath/dsc + gifts.

The real problem I ran into with these types of decks was the 2-3 cc choke point on turn 2. If you had your initial threat countered, and your disruption was of the wrong sort, there wasn't alot you could do to dig yourself out of the hole. A lot of times I just ended up with the wrong threat at the wrong time, with confidant not being enough to draw me into the right answer.

good luck.

[WhiteWolf]

nataz: Seemed you drifted to quite another interesting deck. It would be nice to see a list or you could pm it to me.

Brainstorm would be a very cool addition for the Confidant synergy AND for picking up the pace again when you're a little bogged down like nataz said. Huge problem is that I tend to put Chalice at 1 a lot (anti Welder, Plow, Brainstorm, ... ). Do you people think it would be worth the trouble? I doubt it.

I wouldn't say this is like UW Fish but you could say:
Chalice = Meddling Mage
Wire = Time Walk
...

I'm going to post an updated list somewhere this weekend after some more playtime.

WhiteWolf

[vroman]

The Jötun Grunts replace the usual Su-Chis. They have the same relative cost (if you count Workshop for Su-Chi)

this is not true. workshops contribute nothing to the casting of jotun grunt. in terms of your colored spells, its like you have 4xSorrow's Path in your list. this is why 5C workshop is always fighting itself.

[WhiteWolf]

vroman: You touch one of the core difficulties of 5c Workshop decks: the Shops do nothing for Colored spells. When I said that Grunt and Su-Chi had the same relative cost I meant this: They both can be cast with two "mana". Su-Chi with Shop + something else (be it a mox or land), Grunt with non-shop land + another non-shop land or mox. They both can be cast turn 1 or 2 this way. It's totally true you can't cast Grunt with Shop but you also can't cast Su-Chi on turn 2 with only colored lands and moxen (barring a heavy artifact mana hand). I sort of meant they more or less balance each other out in the amount AND point of time in castability although it weighs a little more to the Grunt side I think.

I hope that's more clear. It would be easier to explain such an abstract thing in Dutch or I could be totally wrong

I'm already happy this thing doesn't suffer from the other thing 5c Workshop has problems with: a Chalice on one.

WhiteWolf

[Kelme]

Hey.

One of my concerns with this deck is that you yourself get a lot more hurt by playing chalice of the void with two counters as opposed to ordinary stax.

[WhiteWolf]

Kelme: Yes, the 2cc slot is pretty filled in this deck: Confidant, Grunt, Rod,Tutor, Walk, ... Anyay, if it gives me a huge advantage, like preventing Oath or a suspected Mana Drain I'll put a Chalice at two. Often, I already have a Confidant or Rod out by then and a Juggernaut can finish the job just as well.

I played some more games yesterday. Against some sort of Gifts-less Gifts deck (UB combo-control with a Colossus and Tendrils kill) and against a 5cAggroShop. The Tendrils wasn't a real problem with a combination of Chalice, Rod and Trinisphere (and Grunt helped out too). The Tinker-Colossus was something else. My only solution for a Tinkered Colossus was to run him over for enough damage. The Shop-on-Shop match is something I never liked to play because it really fucks up your main strategy and is all about who goes first. Anyway, an early Null Rod was good in these matches but the main problem seemed he could power out more and bigger permanents and combined that with Welder.

Now for a solution I'm thinking of dropping the 2 CoW's (and a Grunt, more about that later)) for 2 Hurkyl's Recall. In this color-configuration I see three solutions for Colossus: Plow, Recall and Duplicant. Plow is screwed by Chalice at 1, wich I like to have often; Duplicant can be pretty expensive/slower (both mana-wise and Confidant-wise). The Recall however bounces the Colossus (wich is a pain to hardcast) and it bounces an opposing Shop players permanents and artifact critters (nice with some Chalices out). I'm dropping the CoW's at the moment for them because they were never very useful. Against Shop the problem wasn't him cutting my mana, but him throwing out more or bigger creatures.

Does anyone else thinks they are a good inclusion? It makes Chalice at 2 only worse for me though.

4 Grunt wasn't too much in these games. I always liked to see them, to screw with the combo or Welder players graveyard or just as a cheap big critter. Only once I had two of them in my hand. I just cast one and the other was nice Razormane fodder, no problem. so I'm keeping them at 4 for the moment.

WhiteWolf

[Kelme]

I dont really know about hurkyls recall.. It makes gifts misdirections very dangerous to you.

Besides and in the line with the other point I made about cotv with 2 counters it adds two more cards.

I think that the answer might as well be..Goblin welder? he solves the problem of dsc nicely and fits in with the many possible plays of your deck..

[WhiteWolf]

Kelme: Besides being Red, Goblin Welder falls in the 1cc category wich I try to stay away from with this deck. I would rather add Plows if I went that way. You're right that Recall even further makes a chalice for 2 threatening to me. I hadn't even thought about the Misdirection thing. Very good point, thanks.

WhiteWolf

[xycsoscyx]

Yeah, but who are you casting Recall against when they might have Misdirection?  Stax?  If you're playing against Gifts or Fish (the most likely candidates), are you ever really going to need to cast Recall?