buying cards

[Isaac85]

I'm kind of new to the vintage scene and my friend suggest I go to the mana drain to read up on the format. Well I've been reading up and seeing how diffest decks are ran but I'm unsure as to what cards I will need to play competivly. I know about moxes and other p9 cards. My friend also suggested that I start off small and start with the lower end cards.

[sa17dk]

This belongs more in Basic User Community.

Anyways, your friend is right. Invest in vintage staples that are "universally" useful. For example, the blue fetchlands, duals, etc. Youre also gonna want to focus on getting other not-as-general staples such as Force of Will, Brainstorm, Tutors, and all the other random commonly played stuff.

[chrissss]

stuff that you need for vintage

cheap:

brainstorm, lotus petal, dark ritual, counterspell, duress, mystical tutor,

medium price

tolarian academy, yawgmoths will, mox diamond, chrome mox, demonic tutor , force of will, fetch lands, dual lands, wasteland, strip mine, stifle, null rod, sol ring, vampiric tutor, midirection,


expensive

P9, Loa, bazaar, workshop etc.

try to get the cards from the normal price range, and later get the p9 cards, which you can always proxi.

[Moxlotus]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12056.html

[Isaac85]

Thanks guys for the help. I've already got alot of things on the list mentioned so I'm well on my way.

[SiegeX]

I think Mana Drain should def be on that list.  Its going to replace your counterspells once you get them and some decks like Control Slaver, and to a less extent Gifts, don't work well without them.  The good news is they come in the italian flavor for about 2/3 the cost of the english version so if you wallet is already running thin that could help out quite a bit since you'll need a full set.

[Imsomniac101]

Could someone please help me out with the prices? IE what's the usual price for Workshops, Drains, Power etc over ebay.

[Bram]

It varies over time. A good way to check up on prices is to log onto ebay, go to advanced search, enter the name of the card, and click on 'completed listings only'. That'll give you an overview of what that card recently went for. You still have to use common sense though: sometimes, cards will be ridiculously expensive but the buyer somehow backed out after bidding, or ridiculously cheap in which case the cards are either CE or obvious fakes or whatever (or someone just got real lucky). Sometimes the reserve was set really high so that it didn't sell when the auction was over (but you still see it appear in the 'completed items' listing). Remove obvious 'outlier' values, and average the rest: that should be a decent estimation.

Another way is to go to www.magictraders.com. There's a searchable list for card prices there, based on various stores list prices. It should give you SOME idea, but a lot of people think it's not very accurate representation of what you should be paying.

[Imsomniac101]

Well I live in NZ, and we have our own version of ebay, and there is this person selling power and high end cards of the sort for what I think is cheaper than in the US. Guess I shouldn't risk it though, considering it would be all of my savings. I would make a nice profit if it were real though.

[emidln]

Something I've actually considered for ebay auctions, but haven't done yet, is including video of high end cards going through the light test, bend test, etc as a link in the auction in addition to pictures. This is something I haven't seen done yet, but I think would be really useful. Any thoughts?

[FlamingCloud]

Could someone please help me out with the prices? IE what's the usual price for Workshops, Drains, Power etc over ebay.

Lately these are the prices I have seen roughly for good looking condition cards.

Shop - $250
English Drain - $130
Bazaar - $185
Imperial Seal $180
Library - $155
Grim Tutor - $125

Power varies way way more than the other cards, and especially based on condition.  On ebay you generally get much better deals on power if you go with low reputation sellers, but that is risky.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Lately these are the prices I have seen roughly for good looking condition cards.

Shop - $250
English Drain - $130
Bazaar - $185
Imperial Seal $180
Library - $155
Grim Tutor - $125

Those seem really high for ebay, especially since I KNOW Drains aren't consistently topping 100.

Here's what you *should* be paying:

Shops 175-200
English Drains 80-90
Italian Drains 65-70
Bazaar 150
Imperial Seal 140-150
Library 125
Grim Tutor 100-110

You can find lightly played versions at that fairly easily on Ebay or MOTL.

[Imsomniac101]

Wow. Cuz I'm looking at a Very good condition shop for around $130 US

[Bram]

Yes, but in the card selling business, "good" is jargon for "pretty fucking bad".

The card condition guide at blackborder.com gives you some idea:

http://prices.blackborder.com/cgi-bin/prices/help/condition.cgi?sid=QmMxefHNHy

[Imsomniac101]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=74077280

here's the link with the photos of the back and front. Prices are in $NZ. Tell me what you think

[Bram]

Front looks OK (can't really judge the edges), back looks played (card is possibly vertically bent).

At $135 USD, it's pretty decently priced; possibly because it's in NZ - maybe Vintage isn't as big there. Mind you; you're gonna have to spring for shipping, too, and the auction isn't over yet.

[FlamingCloud]

Those seem really high for ebay, especially since I KNOW Drains aren't consistently topping 100.

Here's what you *should* be paying:

Shops 175-200
English Drains 80-90
Italian Drains 65-70
Bazaar 150
Imperial Seal 140-150
Library 125
Grim Tutor 100-110

You can find lightly played versions at that fairly easily on Ebay or MOTL.

When I said good looking, I didn't mean "good" condition I ment a card that looks good... for example this is about the worst a card could be while still looking good,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antiquities-Mishras-Workshop-Power-Nine-MtG-004_W0QQitemZ8715898595QQihZ004QQcategoryZ38294QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Anything worse and its basically looks like someone threw up the card.

That shop auction on trademe is up to $200, and the seller has low feedback


Cheapest I see a shop in buyable condition is $240US
Imperial Seals are only ever sold on ebay at buy it now for $180 US or higher and there is never auctions so good luck getting $140
Same as Imperial seal, only ever on ebay for buy it now at $125 or higher, never any auctions.
Cheapest drain I see is $110 from a low feedback and $125 from a good source
I see an italian drain for $75 for low feedback and $100 from high
The lowest bazaar on ebay is $168 and looks like someone put it through the wash, an auction near end is $172
A pretty good library is ending in an hour at $132, but probably will go up more

If you can get me the cards at those prices I would be willing to spend a few thousand dollars right now =P

[orgcandman]

Here's what you *should* be paying:

Shops 175-200
English Drains 80-90
Italian Drains 65-70
Bazaar 150
Imperial Seal 140-150
Library 125
Grim Tutor 100-110

Dude, these are way low on most. Shops consistently topped 225, and were averaging around 250.

English drains are 110-130, w/it being 80-90
Bazaars are 170-175
Imp. Seal is 180+
library is 140
Grim Tutor is the only one where I find your prices to be accurate.

[EnialisLiadon]

I got my 2 drains at $90 and they were in really good condition.  The quoted shop price seems right, as well as the Library and Seal price.  I think the only low price on gunslinga's list is the zaar-price.

[Imsomniac101]

Well I live in NZ so shipping is not a problem. Will inquire more into the condition of the card. The guy has lots of feedback from many traders I know and many I don't, and 43 is an average rating for someone who is new. Looking at his feedback, he seems honest enough.

@Flaming Cloud: If I do decide to purchase it, would you like to buy it off me for $240 US?
There were some pieces of power going up for around NZ$300 a mox, A.Recall was going for $600-700 I think, NZ$375 Twister and NZ$1200 Lotus. I'll see if I can find him. I don't have that much cash on me though.

Does anybody know how to detect fakes without destroying the card?

[FlamingCloud]

$240? not really.. lol, they are $250 nm/m on starcity.

But I am certainly willing to buy it at Gunslinga's $175 =P

[Tha Gunslinga]

Well, I can *get* cards at those prices on MOTL; there's an Imp Seal up at 150 right now, and I've picked up two Japanese Seals in the last few months from dealers at $130.  If you're paying over $100 on Drains, you're overpaying really badly.  I just sold 5 English NM/NM- at $100 each.

[Imsomniac101]

lol. $200?

[Nitelite]

Another way is to go to www.magictraders.com. There's a searchable list for card prices there, based on various stores list prices. It should give you SOME idea, but a lot of people think it's not very accurate representation of what you should be paying.

  I think you are confusing findmagiccards.com with magictraders.com. The former uses store prices to get its "price guide" while magictraders price guide is derived ONLY from completed ebay auctions. In fact, its probably the MOST accurate representation of what you should be paying if you understand basic statistics and sample size.

[Imsomniac101]

Auction is going in 3 hours. Should I buy or not?

[CrashTest]

Never judge eBay prices based only on "Buy it now prices". Those are ALWAYS too high. Especially considering eBay just had a 20 cent listing day, people just threw stuff up at outrageous prices.

      I just picked up two near mint English Mana Drains for $170 shipped from a pretty good feedback seller - so all you have to do is be patient and you'll find good prices.

           Also, Europeans always bid too high on the vintage stuff on ebay, since the Euro is stronger than the dollar and they don't have as much over there - so prices can be inaccurate for certain really pimp cards at times.

[JACO]

Ben, aka the Gungslinga's prices are accurate to what you should be paying. If you're basing your prices off StarCityGames.com prices, or some clown dealers on the East Coast, then you are vastly overpaying. Those places usually have a higher overhead, which drives up their price. The world market for high end cards has gradually been driven up over the past couple of years by the Europeans, because of the gain in the Euro against the US Dollar, and is largely defined by the availability on sites such as eBay and MOTL.

A little more thorough guide:
Mishra's Workshop: US$175-200 for slightly played, around $215-230 for NM
Mana Drain (English Legends): US$75-90 for slightly played, around $90-100 for NM/NM-
Mana Drain (Italian Legends): US$65-75 for slightly played, around $75-85 for NM
Bazaar of Baghdad: US$140-155 for slightly played, around $155 for NM
Imperial Seal: US$150-170, depending on language (English tends to go for more than Asian counterparts on P3K)
Library of Alexandria: US$115-140 for slightly played, $140-160 for NM
Grim Tutor: US$100-110 for slightly played, $110-125 for NM

Signed and/or altered versions of these will ususally be higher, of course. Navigating the eBay and MOTL landscape takes a little patience, but all of these cards can be had for those prices if you don't act like a little kid (i.e. "mommy, mommy! I want that now!) or the Cookie Monster (Must...have...COOOOOOKIES!!!AWWWWWWWWWRRRRR!!!!).

[warble]

While all of the prices given so far are within a normal range, I really hope people don't think just because that's what a dealer would pay this means that cards are generally available for these prices.  It is nearly impossible to find a near-mint english mana drain for $90-$100, and any dealer would give their arm/leg to procure said drain.  I'd say it is more realistic to state that an english drain in nm quality would fetch $120-$130 on the market right now, and if it was necessary to liquidate an arbitrary number of english drains in near mint you could easily liquidate for $100 each.  There's a relatively large difference between the liquid value and the actual value of a card, and while dealers tend to stick closer to the liquid value, the market perceived value for those cards listed (especially the drain price) can be significantly higher.  Dealers have access to better markets so their prices are lower, and they are also buying the best available deals on the market and not completing collections and such.

Edit:  dudes, I'm not trying to say you can't get cards for cheap.  I know you are dealers and therefore get friggin' ridiculous deals.  I'm trying to say that unless you take some risk like you guys are doing, you need higher price targets.  *sigh*  I know you're giving great advice to aspiring dealers, and I totally respect that.  I also respect how much you can make by trading, and therefore respect the time and dedication it takes to get those prices.  Not everyone can hit your targets safely is the origin of this little post right here.  Personally I would overpay 10% of the card's value if necessary to ensure actual near mint quality, especially from ebay.  An example is

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-4x-English-Mana-Drain_W0QQitemZ160048969709QQihZ006QQcategoryZ19115QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160048969709

that looks like a great deal, but is laden with risk.  You can get for dealers' prices if you take dealers' risks, but that's the caveat and if you don't take that risk then you shouldn't expect those prices.  If I knew those were really mint and real I'd buy them in a heartbeat.  Who wouldn't take 4 MINT mana drains for $90 apiece?

[ErkBek]

While all of the prices given so far are within a normal range, I really hope people don't think just because that's what a dealer would pay this means that cards are generally available for these prices.  It is nearly impossible to find a near-mint english mana drain for $90-$100, and any dealer would give their arm/leg to procure said drain.  I'd say it is more realistic to state that an english drain in nm quality would fetch $120-$130 on the market right now, and if it was necessary to liquidate an arbitrary number of english drains in near mint you could easily liquidate for $100 each.  There's a relatively large difference between the liquid value and the actual value of a card, and while dealers tend to stick closer to the liquid value, the market perceived value for those cards listed (especially the drain price) can be significantly higher.  Dealers have access to better markets so their prices are lower, and they are also buying the best available deals on the market and not completing collections and such.

Don't listen to him. If you don't believe Gunslinga and JACO then look for yourself with a completed listings search on eBay. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-Mana-Drain-legends-ENG-NM_W0QQitemZ320043408643QQihZ011QQcategoryZ218QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-MAGIC-4x-NM-MINT-LEGENDS-MANA-DRAIN-x-4_W0QQitemZ320044445048QQihZ011QQcategoryZ38302QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And here's miscut one in great condition, won by Gunslinga

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-Mana-Drain-1x-x1-2-4-miscut-signed_W0QQitemZ110048010078QQihZ001QQcategoryZ49194QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

See, $90-100 is quite fair for a nm english drain. I'd be very suprised to find a dealer paying more than $75 for an english drain. If you're new, I'd recommend going for some played ITL ones.

[Tha Gunslinga]

See, I buy my cards on the internet.  If you want to buy from dealers in person, you're going to be overpaying most of the time.  My prices are internet prices, and I find it EASY to pick up EX-NM English Drains at under $100.  In fact, I would never pay that much for one, because I'd rather just cherry-pick Ebay auctions and pick them up at 80-90 max.  My prices are accurate, and if you don't believe me, I'll be glad to find completed sales and auctions to prove my point.