Dealing with Fish

[Purple Hat]

Urh what does this card do that smother dosn't do=

/Zeus

be red and thus playable in U/R CS and it doesn't force you to tutor up a Sea

[zeus-online]

Urh what does this card do that smother dosn't do=

/Zeus

be red and thus playable in U/R CS and it doesn't force you to tutor up a Sea

Oh yeah, 'cause its much better to fetch an volcanic island or what? :/

Anyways, i think they're similar so no point in arguing one over another... one note though is that smother kills green critters like werebear and wild mongrel.

/Zeus

[brianpk80]

Damn you got me! Hmm but it dosn't kill stuff like phyrexian dreadnought...but then again, i don't see a whole lot of those anyways.

/Zeus

Yeah it's definitely a judgment call whether to run the Dart.  It's good to have it in mind for a field of Bomberman and Fish, but just cause it kills Auriok doesn't make it an auto include.  Sometimes you just want to fry that Goblin Warchief and his X/2 pals execution style too.   

-BPK

[zeus-online]

More options is always good
Totally forgot about goblins though...'clasms are alot better against them anyways

/Zeus

[wethepeople]

Someone mentioned this card I'd never heard of over on the SCG boards.  I think it's called Lightning Dart

whatever it is here are the stats:

1R
instant
deal 1 damage to target creature
if that creature is white or blue deal 4 damage to it instead.

that kills everything in fish as well as goblin welder.  Might be worth looking into.

That's a cool card, is it in the new set or has it been around a while.  The only problem I see with it is that it doesn't due what the other removal spells do.  Pyroclasm for the same cost kills the same amount of creatures or more.  Usually it's a two for one.  Massacre, Earthquake, and Fire//Ice are the same way.  This card is a 1 for 1 always, although its a very efficiant way of taking care of Grunt which the others don't do.

I believe it was released in Invasion. But anyway, Smother is also good, same with Dart. I never even thought of using either of those cards, it's a close call. They both can get rid of Grunt, Mage, True Believer, Bob, and Welder. But Smother cant get rid of Salvagers, and that seems to be a big problem for me lately because Bomberman is like everywhere these days.

[PipOC]

CS with SBed FTKs is probably the best choice.  FTK will destroy Fish's midgame, and then you can play with all your big spells in the late game.

why not just play Fire Imp?  He costs one less, still kiss all of their guys, and still trades with one of their dudes.

It doesn't kill grunt which is an important difference.

[King_minos]

I always run fire//ice instead of standard burn. I like the fact that it gives me the most options. It's a little narrower in that it doesn't kill everything but it will slow them down if thats what i need

[brianpk80]

I always run fire//ice instead of standard burn. I like the fact that it gives me the most options. It's a little narrower in that it doesn't kill everything but it will slow them down if thats what i need

Fire/Ice is extremely good.  When you 2-for-1 a Fish player with Fire/Ice, it's not even a straight up trade.  You're paying 1R and one of your most expendable cards to get rid of two of their best players on the table.  Fire/Ice on Dark Confidant and Waterfront Bouncer is so brutal it's practically a game-ending swing in the Drain/UR Fish player's favor, unless of course the black Fish is running Oath of Ghouls. 

-BPK

[Anusien]

The main problem with Fire//Ice is that it doesn't kill Jotun Grunt, neither does Old Man of the Sea or Pyroclasm.  Options I like now are things like THe Abyss and Flametongue Kavu.

[brianpk80]

The main problem with Fire//Ice is that it doesn't kill Jotun Grunt, neither does Old Man of the Sea or Pyroclasm.  Options I like now are things like THe Abyss and Flametongue Kavu.

Fire/Ice isn't mutually exclusive with either The Abyss or Flametongue Kavu.  With Fish on the rise everywhere, Drain players should be packing at least two different removal answers post-sb.  The Abyss, which I suggested earlier, is a real silver bullet against most Fish builds and would be an excellent sideboard or even maindeck tool in the right field.  Flametongue Kavu is somewhat awkward.  The "alternate win" factor is a bit quixotic against a deck with a thousand and one 2/X creatures.  I always found its biggest strength to be its surprise value, which dwindles as its notoriety grows.  Gifts shouldn't have to kill Jotun Grunt to win the game and sorcery speed responses to Auriok Salvagers are too late.  Slaver has more of a problem with Grunt, but again, The Abyss goes a lot farther there than FtK.

Of course, whatever you sideboard will depend on the meta and what type of Fish/Bomberman (and how much) you expect to see.  You don't need me to tell you that, but I put it there anyway for the peanut gallery.   

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

Fire/Ice isn't mutually exclusive with either The Abyss or Flametongue Kavu.  With Fish on the rise everywhere, Drain players should be packing at least two different removal answers post-sb.  The Abyss, which I suggested earlier, is a real silver bullet against most Fish builds and would be an excellent sideboard or even maindeck tool in the right field.  Flametongue Kavu is somewhat awkward.  The "alternate win" factor is a bit quixotic against a deck with a thousand and one 2/X creatures.  I always found its biggest strength to be its surprise value, which dwindles as its notoriety grows.  Gifts shouldn't have to kill Jotun Grunt to win the game and sorcery speed responses to Auriok Salvagers are too late.  Slaver has more of a problem with Grunt, but again, The Abyss goes a lot farther there than FtK.

Of course, whatever you sideboard will depend on the meta and what type of Fish/Bomberman (and how much) you expect to see.  You don't need me to tell you that, but I put it there anyway for the peanut gallery.   

-BPK

The Abyss seems way too slow.  It only hits one creature a turn and it's of the Fish player's choice.  FTK, along with Threads of Disloyalty, Pyroclasm, and Massacre seem much better.  FTK gives you 2-for-1, or just kills a creature and swings.  Threads is probably the best answer for Grunt, but can also steal nearly anything else Fish has.

-DShell

[brianpk80]

The Abyss seems way too slow.  It only hits one creature a turn and it's of the Fish player's choice.  FTK, along with Threads of Disloyalty, Pyroclasm, and Massacre seem much better.  FTK gives you 2-for-1, or just kills a creature and swings.  Threads is probably the best answer for Grunt, but can also steal nearly anything else Fish has.

Good Drain players will incorporate some combination of both.  I don't think The Abyss is defeatingly "slow" enough that it should warrant exclusion from the anti-Fish slots.  It has the same converted mana cost as Flametongue Kavu, can't be answered with Swords, and most Fish decks won't have a maindeck or even sideboard answer for it (unless they add Kami/Ronom in g3 after seeing it g2).  When you play FtK a creature dies instantly and then another if they attack or you attack + they block.  If they have two really problematic creatures on the table, you can kill one and they can choose to keep the other out of combat.  By contrast, with the Abyss, a creature dies on the next upkeep, then again on the following upkeep, and again, and again until it gets to the point where there's no reasonable way to keep up with it.  The Abyss makes Fish lose.  Flametongue is a lot easier to work around. 

Threads of Disloyalty is so-so.  You can 2 for 1 once in a while, but there are a lot of Fish creatures where its controller doesn't matter or you shouldn't want to control it anyway.  With all of Gifts' and Slaver's big artifacts, FoW's, Misdirections, Colossus, Gifts, and expensive draw spells, stealing a Confidant could either be randomly amazing or a random death sentence.  Stealing a True Believer means you cannot Ancestral or Hurkyl's Recall yourself.  Stealing an auto-sac creature, like Children of Korlis, Voidmage Prodigy, or Spiketail Hatchling probably isn't going to happen.  You can steal a Meddling Mage but the spell it names still cannot be played.  Likewise, if I were planning a big Yawgmoth's Will, it would be a big dilemma whether to eventually Grunt my own graveyard or let the 4/4 monster perish, in which case Flametongue or The Abyss would be a lot better.

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

Good Drain players will incorporate some combination of both.  I don't think The Abyss is defeatingly "slow" enough that it should warrant exclusion from the anti-Fish slots.  It has the same converted mana cost as Flametongue Kavu, can't be answered with Swords, and most Fish decks won't have a maindeck or even sideboard answer for it (unless they add Kami/Ronom in g3 after seeing it g2).  When you play FtK a creature dies instantly and then another if they attack or you attack + they block.  If they have two really problematic creatures on the table, you can kill one and they can choose to keep the other out of combat.  By contrast, with the Abyss, a creature dies on the next upkeep, then again on the following upkeep, and again, and again until it gets to the point where there's no reasonable way to keep up with it.  The Abyss makes Fish lose.  Flametongue is a lot easier to work around.

Oh yeah, they certainly include more than a few answers.  Especially in a Gifts decks.  For example, I play 2 FTK, 2 Threads, Pyroclasm, and Massacre in my sideboard.  I could also bring in 2 Spell Snare, not sure if that's needed though.  From my testing, The Abyss isn't so much slow, as much as it doesn't deal with certain threats immediately.  If you want to deal with Grunt, then, chances are, your opponent won't kill him(unless of course he's the only creature on the board).  I would like to test The Abyss more, but I played it as a 1-of in my Gifts board.  It's soooo hard to test Silver Bullets, because you rarely draw them.  

Threads of Disloyalty is so-so.  You can 2 for 1 once in a while, but there are a lot of Fish creatures where its controller doesn't matter or you shouldn't want to control it anyway.  With all of Gifts' and Slaver's big artifacts, FoW's, Misdirections, Colossus, Gifts, and expensive draw spells, stealing a Confidant could either be randomly amazing or a random death sentence.  Stealing a True Believer means you cannot Ancestral or Hurkyl's Recall yourself.  Stealing an auto-sac creature, like Children of Korlis, Voidmage Prodigy, or Spiketail Hatchling probably isn't going to happen.  You can steal a Meddling Mage but the spell it names still cannot be played.  Likewise, if I were planning a big Yawgmoth's Will, it would be a big dilemma whether to eventually Grunt my own graveyard or let the 4/4 monster perish, in which case Flametongue or The Abyss would be a lot better.

Well, Threads is a good choice, not so much because it can 2 for 1.  It's good because it deals with the one threat that you cannot Wrath away: Grunt.  My reasoning for it being able to steal other creatures was merely to show that it's not dead when you cannot take a Grunt.

-DShell

[brianpk80]

Well, Threads is a good choice, not so much because it can 2 for 1.  It's good because it deals with the one threat that you cannot Wrath away: Grunt.  My reasoning for it being able to steal other creatures was merely to show that it's not dead when you cannot take a Grunt.

Threads is a fine choice.  Is the problem with Grunt his 4/4 body or his graveyard disruption?  I actually side a few copies of him out v. Gifts because I don't find him disrupting the Gifts strategy quickly or reliably enough.  Tormod's, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall, and True Believer are all more useful for me.  If I were playing Gifts and faced with a Grunt, I think I'd either just ignore it, cast Gifts, and combo out for the win or tutor up Tinker and steamroll the 4/4 guy. 

Your sideboard choices are pretty good overall.  Having played Fish forever now, I would recommend The Abyss because it's downright brutal.  Good luck,

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

Is the problem with Grunt his 4/4 body or his graveyard disruption?  I actually side a few copies of him out v. Gifts because I don't find him disrupting the Gifts strategy quickly or reliably enough.  Tormod's, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall, and True Believer are all more useful for me.  If I were playing Gifts and faced with a Grunt, I think I'd either just ignore it, cast Gifts, and combo out for the win or tutor up Tinker and steamroll the 4/4 guy. 

Your sideboard choices are pretty good overall.  Having played Fish forever now, I would recommend The Abyss because it's downright brutal.  Good luck,

-BPK

Well, it's a combination of both.  He's a 4/4 body that can disrupt Gifts.  The fact that he's a clock, along with other fast creatures, is what really can give Gifts a fit.  I see no reason to side him out.  Grunt fits Fish's strategy perfectly.

You can attempt to ignore Grunt, but sometimes he can really pose a problem.  You can't really go off in the face of him, unless you're set up perfectly.  In which case, you can Gifts at the end of turn, making his ability irrelevant.

[ELD]

Man lands don't care about The Abyss at all.  I prefer answers that also let me win.  Good examples of this are lava dart and massacre in Gifts.  You can use both to build storm regardless of your opponents board position.  If they do get a slow hand, you can still go for w/o staring at a ton of crappy creature removal.   My issue with a singleton Abyss, is that Gifts if you have a tutor with Gifts, and your tutor target is going to resolve, you can usually just win instead of trying to kill creatures. 

[brianpk80]

Man lands don't care about The Abyss at all.  I prefer answers that also let me win.  Good examples of this are lava dart and massacre in Gifts.  You can use both to build storm regardless of your opponents board position.  If they do get a slow hand, you can still go for w/o staring at a ton of crappy creature removal.   My issue with a singleton Abyss, is that Gifts if you have a tutor with Gifts, and your tutor target is going to resolve, you can usually just win instead of trying to kill creatures. 

You can't always win with a tutor if the creatures you would otherwise kill are a Meddling Mage naming Yawgmoth's Will, a True Believer, a Voidmage Prodigy, and a Dark Confidant.  To derail Fish, the best post sideboard strategy would be to retreat from the aggressive posture of game 1 and play the heavy control route, ultimately cleaning up with an indulgent Will and a huge Tendrils.  The more aggressive Gifts tries to be vis-a-vis Fish, the more it walks right into Fish's game and traps.     

-Brian

[zeus-online]

I kinda agree with Brianpk on this one...playing the slow game seems favorable against fish...since they can't just kill you, and most of their disruption gets worse as the game progresses.

/Zeus

[Zarathustra]

You can't always win with a tutor if the creatures you would otherwise kill are a Meddling Mage naming Yawgmoth's Will, a True Believer, a Voidmage Prodigy, and a Dark Confidant.  To derail Fish, the best post sideboard strategy would be to retreat from the aggressive posture of game 1 and play the heavy control route, ultimately cleaning up with an indulgent Will and a huge Tendrils.  The more aggressive Gifts tries to be vis-a-vis Fish, the more it walks right into Fish's game and traps.     

-Brian

How does Gifts win with a tutor in that position?  If MM = Tendrils, TB, Kai, and Bob are on the board, I see the best choice is tutor for Pyroclasm or Burning Wish ---> Massacre.

To say Gifts has to play the slow game doesn't make sense to me.  Gifts is much faster and has ways of just reseting the board via board sweepers and just winning.  Tutoring for The Abyss in a situation much like the above game state seems like an auto-loss for Gifts.  Since you cannot possibly choose which threat is dealt with first.

[brianpk80]

How does Gifts win with a tutor in that position?  If MM = Tendrils, TB, Kai, and Bob are on the board, I see the best choice is tutor for Pyroclasm or Burning Wish ---> Massacre.

To say Gifts has to play the slow game doesn't make sense to me.  Gifts is much faster and has ways of just reseting the board via board sweepers and just winning.  Tutoring for The Abyss in a situation much like the above game state seems like an auto-loss for Gifts.  Since you cannot possibly choose which threat is dealt with first.

The idea would be to preclude that situation from even happening by resolving an early Abyss.  Kai's going to counter your Massacre/Pyroclasm anyway, and he'll probably sac Bob or Meddling Mage (both Wizards) and stick around to counter some more.  If Gifts ever opened a post-sideboard game with land, Mox, Mana Crypt, Abyss (and Misdirect your Force!) I'd either concede or climb the uphill battle trying to get Vial and Oath of Ghouls online within 4-5 turns, most likely failing to assemble it and losing.  Massacre and Pyroclasm are good and should be run, but Fish plays around them after sideboard and puts Gifts in the awkward position of casting it to kill only one or two creatures (after enough turns with only Bob or Ninja on the table, you will want them dead at any cost) or waiting to maximize its effect.  This stalls you because Fish knows you want to get the most out of your Massacre/Pyroclasm and won't just walk right into it.     

Most excellent Gifts players would agree that rather than Forcing through a Gifts Ungiven and hinging everything on an early risk-laden Tinker or Will, the best strategy is to out-control Fish post-sideboard.  Use Needles to stop the major headaches (Vial, Crypt, Kai, Gorilla), build a hand full of Red-Blasts, never allow a Confidant/Ninja to let them get ahead, and then kill with a whopping Tendrils on the 7th-9th turn.  Fish has a considerably worse Slaver match-up than Gifts, and a nightmare Keeper/4CC match-up.  Naturally, the more you play your deck like it's Slaver or Keeper, the better your chances of swallowing Fish.

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

The idea would be to preclude that situation from even happening by resolving an early Abyss.  Kai's going to counter your Massacre/Pyroclasm anyway, and he'll probably sac Bob or Meddling Mage (both Wizards) and stick around to counter some more.  If Gifts ever opened a post-sideboard game with land, Mox, Mana Crypt, Abyss (and Misdirect your Force!) I'd either concede or climb the uphill battle trying to get Vial and Oath of Ghouls online within 4-5 turns, most likely failing to assemble it and losing.  Massacre and Pyroclasm are good and should be run, but Fish plays around them after sideboard and puts Gifts in the awkward position of casting it to kill only one or two creatures (after enough turns with only Bob or Ninja on the table, you will want them dead at any cost) or waiting to maximize its effect.  This stalls you because Fish knows you want to get the most out of your Massacre/Pyroclasm and won't just walk right into it.

If I side in only 1 of The Abyss, how often am I gonna draw a Land, Mox, Mana Crypt, Abyss hand?  Banking on that is not a good way to beat Fish.  I'd much rather side in wrath effects that are about half the cost, if not less, than to rely on getting The Abyss early enough beat Fish.     

Most excellent Gifts players would agree that rather than Forcing through a Gifts Ungiven and hinging everything on an early risk-laden Tinker or Will, the best strategy is to out-control Fish post-sideboard.  Use Needles to stop the major headaches (Vial, Crypt, Kai, Gorilla), build a hand full of Red-Blasts, never allow a Confidant/Ninja to let them get ahead, and then kill with a whopping Tendrils on the 7th-9th turn.  Fish has a considerably worse Slaver match-up than Gifts, and a nightmare Keeper/4CC match-up.  Naturally, the more you play your deck like it's Slaver or Keeper, the better your chances of swallowing Fish.

Gifts doesn't have to hinge everything on an early Gifts Ungiven.  But, for Gifts to even consider out-controlling Fish, it wants to resolve an early Gifts.

I rarely see Needles going in against Fish, much less see them in the Gifts player SB anymore.  Furthermore, I rarely side in more counterspells(REBS/Pyroblasts), for the fact that it clutters the main deck.  Sure, you can side out your Mana Drains, seeing as they almost never break the game wide open against Fish.

Keeper?  Keeper is non-existent.  Also, trying to play the slow controlling game against Fish with Gifts is exactly what Fish wants you to do.  Against Fish, Gifts is the beatdown deck.  Sure, Gifts can play the permissor, but that's only in the short game.  To say Gifts wants to play like Keeper against Fish mixes up the whole methodology behind what Gifts is.  That's why I don't see siding in The Abyss, it's too slow and as a singleton can't be relied on in the early game.

-DShell 

[brianpk80]

[Keeper?  Keeper is non-existent.  Also, trying to play the slow controlling game against Fish with Gifts is exactly what Fish wants you to do.  Against Fish, Gifts is the beatdown deck.  Sure, Gifts can play the permissor, but that's only in the short game.  To say Gifts wants to play like Keeper against Fish mixes up the whole methodology behind what Gifts is.  That's why I don't see siding in The Abyss, it's too slow and as a singleton can't be relied on in the early game.

Well, that's the idea.  Fish expects Gifts to play aggro and that's why Fish of all stripes beats Gifts (more often than not).  It's actually one of the few decks in the format that can reliably beat Gifts.  The most skilled Gifts players I know side in Pithing Needle, Blasts, and mass removal against Fish and play the control game.  It's a much stronger position than trying to go nuts in front of Crypts, Swords, Fish-bounce, etc.  Do whatever works for you though.   

-B

[Implacable]

I do tend to play the control style against Fish with Gifts, and am now experimenting with the Abyss because it fits that style so much better.  The problem with going aggro is that they have so much early disruption; Stifle, Waste, Mage, Believer, and Rod are the most common, and I guarantee you that they will have at least two of those ready to be used/on the board by turn 3.   It's essentially impossible to play aggro, so why not just stock up, Gifts a bunch of time, and then blow them out?

[Zarathustra]

Well, that's the idea.  Fish expects Gifts to play aggro and that's why Fish of all stripes beats Gifts (more often than not).  It's actually one of the few decks in the format that can reliably beat Gifts.  The most skilled Gifts players I know side in Pithing Needle, Blasts, and mass removal against Fish and play the control game.  It's a much stronger position than trying to go nuts in front of Crypts, Swords, Fish-bounce, etc.  Do whatever works for you though.   

-B

Against Fish, I want the game to last no longer than 5-7 turns.  Plus, Gifts can wait until the last possible moment against Fish and go off.  Especially with Tendrils in the maindeck.

Since you say that Fish of all types beats Gifts "more often that not"...  If Fish is one of the most dominate decks in T1 right now, how does Gifts consistently place T16 or even T8?  Your statement seems a bit loaded to me.

[brianpk80]

Against Fish, I want the game to last no longer than 5-7 turns.  Plus, Gifts can wait until the last possible moment against Fish and go off.  Especially with Tendrils in the maindeck.
Since you say that Fish of all types beats Gifts "more often that not"...  If Fish is one of the most dominate decks in T1 right now, how does Gifts consistently place T16 or even T8?  Your statement seems a bit loaded to me.

5-7 turns is a long time for Gifts to wait to goldfish.  It's not easy to go off without your graveyard and Fish throws in a lot of grave-hate v. Gifts.  As for Fish's "dominance," well... Fish variants have been hitting Top 8 and taking first place throughout the summer (SS, Vinelasher Kudzu, Feinstein UW, Paul Nicolo, etc.). 

If you believe you have a great Fish match-up, then keep doing whatever you find works for you and good luck.

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

5-7 turns is a long time for Gifts to wait to goldfish.  It's not easy to go off without your graveyard and Fish throws in a lot of grave-hate v. Gifts.  As for Fish's "dominance," well... Fish variants have been hitting Top 8 and taking first place throughout the summer (SS, Vinelasher Kudzu, Feinstein UW, Paul Nicolo, etc.).

Yet, you just said Gifts wants to play the role of 'Keeper' against Fish.  You always assume Gifts has no graveyard, which assumes too much, honestly.

Sure, Fish has done well.  Gifts has also done well despite Fish being the 'up and coming deck' everyone thinks it is, you can't deny that.

-DShell

[hitman]

brianpk is right.  i've playtested fish too many times to count.  if you're playing against a good fish build you have to play control.  aether vial is an auto counter, counter relevant creatures, side in needles and creature removal.  you wait on your gifts, bounce or needle the tormod's, play gifts end of turn, win.  doing all this takes a while against a deck that has a maindeck essentially designed to beat you.  if you play fast against any kind of competent player, you'll probably lose unless you have the nuts.

[Zarathustra]

Fish has a considerably worse Slaver match-up than Gifts, and a nightmare Keeper/4CC match-up.  Naturally, the more you play your deck like it's Slaver or Keeper, the better your chances of swallowing Fish.

5-7 turns is a long time for Gifts to wait to goldfish.

brianpk is right.  i've playtested fish too many times to count.  if you're playing against a good fish build you have to play control.  aether vial is an auto counter, counter relevant creatures, side in needles and creature removal.  you wait on your gifts, bounce or needle the tormod's, play gifts end of turn, win.  doing all this takes a while against a deck that has a maindeck essentially designed to beat you.  if you play fast against any kind of competent player, you'll probably lose unless you have the nuts.

First, BPK says that Fish has a nightmare match-up against Keeper/4CC.  Which, doesn't even exist.  So, the relevance of that statement puzzles me.   Then he makes the claim, "Naturally, the more you play your deck(Gifts), like Slaver or Keeper, the better you have the chance to swallow Fish".  I don't see how you can compare Gifts to Slaver or Keeper.

BPK, then you turn around and tell me that going off with Gifts turn 5-7 is too late?  What?  Considering the normal goldfish rate for Gifts is turns 3-5, I have no idea how turns 5-7 is late.  If I play any sort of control with Fish, I wait until the last possible moment to go off.  Which would be that turn right before they can alpha strike to win.

Hitman, you mean to say, "in my opinion, Bpk is right".  With Bpk contradicting himself a bit, I don't see how he's right.

-DShell

[brianpk80]

First, BPK says that Fish has a nightmare match-up against Keeper/4CC.  Which, doesn't even exist.  So, the relevance of that statement puzzles me.   Then he makes the claim, "Naturally, the more you play your deck(Gifts), like Slaver or Keeper, the better you have the chance to swallow Fish".  I don't see how you can compare Gifts to Slaver or Keeper.

Well, like I explained before, those archetypes are relevant because, compared to Gifts, Fish has a worse match-up against Slaver, and even worse against Keeper/4CC.  Therefore, the more Slaver plays like 4CC and the more Gifts plays like Slaver, the better chance the Drain deck has of winning.  What this means in a nutshell is that the more controlling the play-style and sideboard/maindeck choices of the Drain deck, the better chance it has at beating Fish. 

BPK, then you turn around and tell me that going off with Gifts turn 5-7 is too late?  What?  Considering the normal goldfish rate for Gifts is turns 3-5, I have no idea how turns 5-7 is late.  If I play any sort of control with Fish, I wait until the last possible moment to go off.  Which would be that turn right before they can alpha strike to win.

Nah, that turn 5-7 comment referred to the idea that you would combo out fast against Fish.  5-7 turns is fine in the abstract.  It's just not "fast."  If fast is your plan v. Fish (and I don't think it's a good one), your goal is a first/second turn Tinker or a third/fourth turn lethal Yawgmoth's Will.  On the 5-7th turn, a good Gifts player post-sideboard would still be accumulating resources, Gifting for acceleration, draw, Neeldes, & Red-Blasts, etc. and nearing the end of the control game.  Throwing around big spells like Tinker and Will when you're still having fetchlands Stifled and Mana Drains Dazed just isn't good strategy. 

-Brian

[Zarathustra]

Well, like I explained before, those archetypes are relevant because, compared to Gifts, Fish has a worse match-up against Slaver, and even worse against Keeper/4CC.  Therefore, the more Slaver plays like 4CC and the more Gifts plays like Slaver, the better chance the Drain deck has of winning.  What this means in a nutshell is that the more controlling the play-style and sideboard/maindeck choices of the Drain deck, the better chance it has at beating Fish.

You've said yourself that you don't play Gifts.  Then you turn around and say that the Gifts player should play Gifts like Slaver or Keeper.  My confusion lies in the fact that I don't see how you can say a certain archetype should play like archetype A, B, or C, when those archetypes share a few similarities and nothing more.  I don't see how Gifts can truly play like Slaver or even like Keeper.  Sure, Gifts can play control or it can play combo.  It can even play control and then combo out.  This is not Keeper.  Sure, it bears resemblance to Slaver, but I think that's just reaching for straws.

Nah, that turn 5-7 comment referred to the idea that you would combo out fast against Fish.  5-7 turns is fine in the abstract.  It's just not "fast."  If fast is your plan v. Fish (and I don't think it's a good one), your goal is a first/second turn Tinker or a third/fourth turn lethal Yawgmoth's Will.  On the 5-7th turn, a good Gifts player post-sideboard would still be accumulating resources, Gifting for acceleration, draw, Neeldes, & Red-Blasts, etc. and nearing the end of the control game.  Throwing around big spells like Tinker and Will when you're still having fetchlands Stifled and Mana Drains Dazed just isn't good strategy.

To me, turns 5-7 against Fish is ideal.  I feel no reason to let the game go any farther than that.  Since, Gifts can Pyroclasm or Massacre, and just end the game.

If the opportunity is there, sure I will take a turn 1-2 Tinker, as long as I have counter back-up.  If I can find a way to Tendrils turns 3-4, I will do it, with counter back-up.  These scenarios, are also abstract, but Gifts players will take them if they can.

To say that on the 5th-7th turn, a good Gifts player is doing this, this, and this, is a bit condescending to me.  I said turns 5-7 is ideal.  Good Gifts players know that games change and thus, your ideal goldfish turn changes too.

-DShell